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Is Shurmur Actually A Good Coach?

GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:32 pm
I get it, a lot has gone wrong this season and people will soon start to say, oh you can't judge him for this season as it was the talent level or the offensive line or Eli.

But that does not absolve the coach of any blame or criticism and I think it's very fair to wonder if we have the right coach in place for the rebuild.

I also think it's important to separate the HC from the playcaller here. I'm focusing this post on his HC decisions although his play calling all year has been very questionable with his abandoning the run and consistently calling plays that throw the ball short of the first down sticks or end zone.

Going from the most recent games back towards the beginning of the season.

Philly

1. Not going for it on 4th and goal after the roughing the passer penalty on Eli was a horrible decision in my mind. The mentality of this team is too often to check down and settle rather than push and dictate. This was a prime example.

2. Attempting the 50+ yard field goal with an injured Rosas. Now FOX did a poor job here as I don't recall they showed where he was kicking from in pregame, but the coach needs to know what distance his kicker can reach from. There was still time on the clock to mount a drive and get closer if they went for it on 4th (also calling the run 2 plays earlier when you only had 1 timeout was a HORRIBLE decision).

3. At the end of the game, why is OBJ back there returning punts when the game was well beyond reach? What is the purpose of that?

Carolina

1. On OBJ's muffed punt return, why is he back there in that instance? He is not a veteran or full time returner. He should be back there only in situations where a big return is needed or a possibility.

2. He had horrible time management at the end of the first half not knowing when to use timeouts.

New Orleans

1. Horrible play calling getting away from the run. I know I said I wouldn't get into that here, but it was SOOO bad this game I had to say it.

2. On the Gallman fumble Barkley had like 5 touches in that game at that point. He should have been in the game not Gallman.

Texans

- Nothing sticks out as being a bad job by him in this game.

Dallas

1. Not going for it on the 4th down right around midfield and then GOING for the 4th down at his own 40. Neither decision appeared correct or to make any sense at all.

Jacksonville

1. End of the game it should have been Barkley or OBJ returning the punt which was muffed.

Additional Overall Comment

Are we sure he's doing the right thing not getting Lauletta ANY practice snaps to date?
I agree  
Foobarbaz : 10/13/2018 1:35 pm : link
I would put most blame on him.
I think  
Rick5 : 10/13/2018 1:38 pm : link
it is fair to question whether they have hired the right guy. He certainly has no track record of success as an NFL HC. I guess we will find out in another year or two. It we be really unfortunate if he turns out not to be a good HC.
I like Shurmur and wanted him hired  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/13/2018 1:40 pm : link
but he has made mistakes for sure. He also advocated for Eli. He needs to hold his share of the blame.
foobar  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:42 pm : link
i'm not blaming him for their record. the talent level on this team stinks along with the QB. but we are about to enter a real rebuild here. this coach has no track record of success. and decisions he has made so far this season which have nothing to do with the talent level have been questionable at best. this organization cannot afford to not question him at all because guess what happens if you realize 2 years from now he's not the right guy? a new guy comes in and you have another rebuild of the new coach bringing in his guys and installing his schemes and you've now wasted the rest of OBJs career and half of barkleys
I think he's better than McAdoo  
moespree : 10/13/2018 1:43 pm : link
But are you going to build a long-term competitor with him as the coach for 7 or 8 years? I doubt it.
RE: I think  
lecky : 10/13/2018 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14126355 Rick5 said:
Quote:
it is fair to question whether they have hired the right guy. He certainly has no track record of success as an NFL HC. I guess we will find out in another year or two. It we be really unfortunate if he turns out not to be a good HC.


I was thinking like a game or two. Name one thing he has done well? On the field or off? Free agent signings are a bust. Drafted the wrong guy. Not that Barkley isnt amazing but certainly not what we need the most for a long term winning organization. Team does not even look like it practices, on offense or defense. What is their scheme? Do they have a scheme or do we just chase receivers across the field all day? Why cant an O-lineman get in the way of a rusher even for a second? What are we teaching these guys?
lecky  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:46 pm : link
i don't think it's fair to hold shurmur accountable for those things. he is not the GM. and he has some very bad players on this team who are starting.
lecky  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:47 pm : link
and he has a QB who does not appear to be making the right reads or throwing the ball where he should on some plays so i don't think it's fair to blame him there either
anynoe is an upgrade  
spike : 10/13/2018 1:48 pm : link
from MegaBoob
Not as good  
darren in pdx : 10/13/2018 1:51 pm : link
as hoped. See flashes of something exciting and then mostly the same old shit that's been plaguing this team for the past three tenures. Mixture of bad drafting and a losing culture that has developed over the years. It feels like every game starts off with a poor moment and the collective attitude is 'here we go again,' not just the fans but from the team. Collectively, everyone is at fault. Eli can't overcome the odds anymore and get the ball to the receivers, the o-line is not cohesive at all and take turns having bad plays and bad games, the receivers can't beat coverage, the defense wilts under pressure or gets a ridiculous penalty (whether or not the refs make a bad call), and compounded with poor coaching decisions at times. The only thing to hang onto at the moment is that the draft class for the most part has played really well, and the team will only improve by hitting on probably the next two drafts consecutively.. And at least it seems like their trying to fix the culture and holding players accountable evidenced by the mass exodus of the roster and recently jettisoning Flowers. I'll try to be hopeful that next year they might be competitive again with good additions, but I'm resigning myself to expect at least another 3 to 5 years of this and I've never been this negative about the team my entire life.
the whole upgrade vs Ben is not relevant  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:51 pm : link
the team really needs to evaluate if he is a good coach this year under bad circumstances for the reasons i mentioned above.
This is a sloppy football  
Les in TO : 10/13/2018 1:55 pm : link
Team, too many penalties and turnovers and his clock management has been poor. And while he is a good man and hard workerI’m not sure how well he relates to and motivates the players.

Les  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 1:58 pm : link
i think that is very difficult to judge and blame the coach for. he is to blame for Eli's turnovers? or gallman fumbling? that's on the players

and i think this team does come out motivated. but when you have a line that can't block and qb who can't play, it may give the appearance of lack of effort, but i don't think they weren't trying or came out flat once this season
You are....  
thrunthrublue : 10/13/2018 2:04 pm : link
What your record says you are. Worst record in the nfl.
And just for comparison sake with no further analysis,  
darren in pdx : 10/13/2018 2:05 pm : link
other first-year coaches aren't doing well either. Patricia was interviewed and the Lions are 2-3, Steve Wilks and the Cardinals are 1-4. Gruden is 1-4. Nagy with the Bears and Vrabel with the Titans seem to be the only 1st year head coachs with immediate success so far at 3-1 and 3-2. But it's a long season and remains to be seen if that all holds true.
Doesn’t look good at this point....  
trueblueinpw : 10/13/2018 2:07 pm : link
Except for the part about TOBJ taking punts, which I think he did at LSU, all your points are fair. I was troubled when he went to the podium after the Iggles ass thrashed us in our house (again) and Coach Shurmur said that the team fought hard and he was happy with the effort. Clearly the offense was over matched by the Philthy defense but what was the excuse of the defense? The defense clearly gave up on several plays and put forth a lousy effort over all. The overall point is that the entire team sucks and there’s trouble - already - in the locker room. So, things don’t look promising for a long successful career by PS at NYG.
I thought Dave Gettleman  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 2:09 pm : link
Was responsible for the roster additions/draft? And you have people putting this on Shurmur? Did this team not one week ago score more points than they had since December of 2015?

Did you expect a 3-13 team with major changes was automatically going to win a bunch of games? No. This team would be bad with any coach. And no, Barkley wasn't the wrong pick, he is one of the best weapons in football already, so stop. We'll get the QB this off-season and in 2 years you can start judging this group.

Btw nobody is winning with Eli at QB. And calling plays short of the sticks? Stop it. Just because Eli is captain check down right now doesn't mean Shurmur's play call was supposed to be short of the sticks. There is nothing wrong with the play-calling. Shurmur isn't perfect, no one is, but 6 games in and we get this shit. Unbelievable. This team was always going to be a loser, with any coach. It's year one of a 2-3 year rebuild. Get used to it and sit tf down.
No  
arniefez : 10/13/2018 2:10 pm : link
anyone who is 11-28 is not good. He was given a second chance to prove his terrible record was more on the Browns than on him. So far he's falling. My guess is that he gets 32 games with the Giants no matter what happens this year. He has 26 left to turn it around.
Too early  
UberAlias : 10/13/2018 2:14 pm : link
To say.
I said this before,  
Doomster : 10/13/2018 2:19 pm : link
he was hired the same way MacAdon't was, based on one year as an OC(and that was still TC's offense)....
Beats me thus far  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2018 2:19 pm : link
but when I see players going "half-hearted" and continual head-scratching special team issues, I tend to look at the coaching...
He's an upgrade from McAdoofus  
NyquistX3 : 10/13/2018 2:21 pm : link
but I'm not sold on him.
I don't care about whether he called time out here  
Dave on the UWS : 10/13/2018 2:24 pm : link
or didn't have OBJ return a punt there. What he HAS to be able to do, is command the locker room, hold this crap together, hold people accountable, CLEAN UP THE MESS. Stop assessing him as an OC. (yes its his offense and it hasn't been good). This was part of Mac's issue. We need a leader of men, for the WHOLE roster. A true head coach!
No.  
giantsFC : 10/13/2018 2:33 pm : link
He doesn’t command any respect and combine that w his amazing record you get tune-outs when going gets rough. Bad hire as a HC
You mean the 9 games he won with  
Dave on the UWS : 10/13/2018 2:42 pm : link
NO talent at Cleveland over 2 years which was more than ANY OTHER coach in 20 years there? I'm not sure he is the answer but try not to be a schmuck.
Ffs it's way too early  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 10/13/2018 2:43 pm : link
to say he was a "bad hire", he inherited a clusterfuck. Expecting this to turn around quickly was folly.
Sorry Dave  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 2:47 pm : link
It's Saturday Schmuck Day I guess. At least you went with schmuck which is a lot nicer than what I wanted to go with.
I'm waiting to make  
Photoguy : 10/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
my determination until after the season, not after 6 games.
Nah  
fanofthejets : 10/13/2018 2:59 pm : link
He's never shown himself to be one. But I don't think the Giants were even all that high on him. They wanted Patricia or McDaniels.

It wasn't a great year to find a coach. If you can find better this offseason then can him and move on
You won't be able to  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 3:18 pm : link
Fairly judge Shurmur until his 2nd year with his quarterback.
Probably a good QB coach  
Rflairr : 10/13/2018 3:18 pm : link
But that's about it. Never been impressed with his offense.

I Thought the main reason he got the job was because they were going to go QB at 2 and he would be groomed by Shurmur.
Rosas FG Attempt  
Samiam : 10/13/2018 3:27 pm : link
A coach needs to know the right distance. Brilliant observation especially since the announcers didn’t give the information and you admit you don’t know what Rosas was doing in pregame regarding distance. Why would this mentioned since it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about
RE: You won't be able to  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/13/2018 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14126515 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Fairly judge Shurmur until his 2nd year with his quarterback.


He took the job and was very willing to discuss how happy he was to coach Eli. This is his QB.
TTH  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 3:44 pm : link
and he was part of the decision making process to NOT pick a QB at 2 AND draft Lauletta in the 4th.
samiam  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 3:44 pm : link
what is clear is he couldn't reach.
dave  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 3:47 pm : link
first don't talk to me about his time at cleveland. if that performance was so damn impressive how come he hasn't been hired as a HC since?

second, i'm not saying fire him. but i'm saying we need to start really analyzing him and cannot afford to make excuses for him to not judge his performance as the HC. simply being "classy" and "an adult" is not enough
He may be one of those great assistants, but will never be a great  
SterlingArcher : 10/13/2018 3:48 pm : link
head coach.
I think so  
bc4life : 10/13/2018 3:48 pm : link
Just doesn't have the OLine he needs.
i said it earlier about the main problem  
GiantsFan84 : 10/13/2018 3:49 pm : link
you don't want to realize 2 years from now that he's not the right guy. you MUST dissect his performances from this season

2 years from now you will have drafted HIS QB and filled the roster with HIS players. then you may bring in a new HC who will want HIS guys and you are in a perpetual state of rebuilding
Yes  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 4:07 pm : link
You attempt to give any coach good players that fit their system.

Nobody on this board needs to be analyzing Shurmur, nor are they really capable of analyzing him, although some may be deluded into thinking they are.
Shermer was supposed to be  
CromartiesKid21 : 10/13/2018 4:10 pm : link
BB-lite with ingame adjustments and changing gamescripts depending on the opposing defense that had me excited.

But after 6 games he still scheme to beat the Cover 2
RE: Shermer was supposed to be  
CromartiesKid21 : 10/13/2018 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14126588 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
BB-lite with ingame adjustments and changing gamescripts depending on the opposing defense that had me excited.

But after 6 games he still scheme to beat the Cover 2


Jeez the lag in this phone..
*Shurmur

* still cant scheme to beat the Cover 2
Biggest indictment  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/13/2018 4:13 pm : link
I thought he would adapt his system to Eli. Nope, flat/slant/hook fest and high completion % flood rights on 3 and 14.

Mcadoo 2.0 but without the ability to come up with cool slogans like "taking care of the Duke".
have to execut eth palys he calls  
bc4life : 10/13/2018 4:16 pm : link
Baldy ripped Shurmur's palycalling - but on one of the plays, two blockers are set up = all they had to do was hold their blocks for a second and allow OBJ to make another miss. Both blockers went after one defender.
RE: RE: Shermer was supposed to be  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/13/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14126595 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14126588 CromartiesKid21 said:


Quote:


BB-lite with ingame adjustments and changing gamescripts depending on the opposing defense that had me excited.

But after 6 games he still scheme to beat the Cover 2



Jeez the lag in this phone..
*Shurmur

* still cant scheme to beat the Cover 2

Someone who cant beat Cover 2 doesn't deserve to have his name spelt correctly.
11-28 career record  
Vanzetti : 10/13/2018 5:05 pm : link
How many coaches with that record are “good”?
Hard to say  
aimrocky : 10/13/2018 5:16 pm : link
When things go this badly it’s difficult to focus in on one person. I’ve liked his fire but actual coaching is still TBD.
Shurmur is rather unimpressive  
SHO'NUFF : 10/13/2018 5:51 pm : link
at this juncture. He's making the same mistakes as the previous regime.
Objectively, there's nothing you can hold in your hand  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/13/2018 6:17 pm : link
to demonstrate that he is a good head coach.
Gettleman's algorithm determined he's an "adult"  
Go Terps : 10/13/2018 6:42 pm : link
So I guess he's got that going for him.
WTF  
GMoney : 10/13/2018 7:09 pm : link
He needs to get his Fucking Face out of the Play Card. Looks like he may be in a Trance, Not Impressed (to say the least) so far. Why the Fuck do we have a OC if the Head Coach is Spending all Game calling Check downs ? This is a Major Shit Show. All around.
Lombardi  
tomjgiant : 10/13/2018 7:13 pm : link
couldn't win with this OL.
RE: Shermer was supposed to be  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14126588 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
BB-lite with ingame adjustments and changing gamescripts depending on the opposing defense that had me excited.

But after 6 games he still scheme to beat the Cover 2


You can't even spell his name, fail, shit opinion.
RE: RE: You won't be able to  
allstarjim : 10/13/2018 7:23 pm : link
In comment 14126547 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14126515 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Fairly judge Shurmur until his 2nd year with his quarterback.



He took the job and was very willing to discuss how happy he was to coach Eli. This is his QB.


TTH, he would've said that about any incumbent with no other obvious choice on the roster, much less someone with the pedigree and history of Eli Manning in NY. To have said anything otherwise would've been a terrible mistake and actually would've made him look like he didn't know what he was doing, i.e., job too big for him.
I think he's as good as Jim Fassel  
Simms11 : 10/13/2018 7:47 pm : link
and he was here for a little while. Had some success here too.
You are what your record  
B in ALB : 10/13/2018 7:50 pm : link
says you are.

- BP
RE: You mean the 9 games he won with  
FStubbs : 10/13/2018 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14126476 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
NO talent at Cleveland over 2 years which was more than ANY OTHER coach in 20 years there? I'm not sure he is the answer but try not to be a schmuck.


Crennel went 10-6 one season in Cleveland. The two years before that he won 10 games. Just saying.
Way too soon to say ...  
Beer Man : 10/13/2018 7:54 pm : link
after Parcell's first season with the Giants I wanted him gone. I was wrong.
RE: Way too soon to say ...  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 10/13/2018 8:14 pm : link
In comment 14126882 Beer Man said:
Quote:
after Parcell's first season with the Giants I wanted him gone. I was wrong.


And more importantly, so did George Young. If he could have got his man, Parcells would have been fired.
He  
Jerry in DC : 10/13/2018 8:26 pm : link
Is probably fine. Kind of a generic, anonymous long time coach/coordinator. Not exceptional, not incompetent. Mike smith, rod marinelli, Bruce arians, mike McCoy. Just some generic names that come to mind - I think he's that kind of coach. Can win some games, lose some games. Usually forgettable after a few years.
No  
larryflower37 : 10/13/2018 9:15 pm : link
He has done nothing to match a system to the personal.
With no adjustments.
This team should be a power run team with deep shots.
2 TE/ FB - max protect.
He runs too much out of shotgun.
Also Shula was a lousy hire.
Another retread  
gmenatlarge : 10/13/2018 9:54 pm : link
I don’t think anyone is confusing this team with a “well-coached team”!
can't change coasches ever year  
Steve in South Jersey : 10/13/2018 10:12 pm : link
I would give him another season. Parcells almost got fired after his first season in 1983.
RE: No  
BillKo : 10/13/2018 10:17 pm : link
In comment 14126979 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
He has done nothing to match a system to the personal.
With no adjustments.
This team should be a power run team with deep shots.
2 TE/ FB - max protect.
He runs too much out of shotgun.
Also Shula was a lousy hire.


I think this is a great post.

I really thought, with Barkley, we'd be running from under center a ton, with play action a vital part of our deception.

I wonder what % we've run play action this season....and in comparison to other teams.

I'm willing to give Shurmur 16 games. I am hoping, adjustments are still to come to this work in progress.
RE: RE: No  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/13/2018 10:31 pm : link
In comment 14127054 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14126979 larryflower37 said:


Quote:


He has done nothing to match a system to the personal.
With no adjustments.
This team should be a power run team with deep shots.
2 TE/ FB - max protect.
He runs too much out of shotgun.
Also Shula was a lousy hire.



I think this is a great post.

I really thought, with Barkley, we'd be running from under center a ton, with play action a vital part of our deception.

I wonder what % we've run play action this season....and in comparison to other teams.

I'm willing to give Shurmur 16 games. I am hoping, adjustments are still to come to this work in progress.

Shumur is toast. He got cucked by Sean Peyton.
Probably not  
santacruzom : 10/14/2018 1:25 am : link
Most people who wind up coaching NFL teams prove not to be very good at it. He seems to be among them.
Shurmur's Been Here All Of 6 Games...  
blink667 : 10/14/2018 9:12 pm : link
... and it's already been decided he's a bad coach? There are 35 new players on the team and the O line truly sucks. They're repeatedly in 3rd and long because they aren't executing and get no push up front to run the ball. I don't think that's the coach's fault. You can't blame him for lack of talent.
Give Shurmur A Break  
DeepBlueJint : 10/15/2018 10:22 am : link
Where is the talent? IMO, even Shepherd and Collins are being infected by the environment in the clubhouse and on the field, e.g. Beckham. This team has no talent and no leadership and Shurmur cannot plug all the holes in the "dike" that this team has. And Shurmur will make mistakes. Go tell me Coughlan didn't make any. What was Parcell's record his first year? What was the Giants' record under George Young the first 3 years? Gettlemen appears to have done a good job with his first draft with Barkley, Hernandez, Carter and Hill. Give Shurmur and him time. I am confident that they can build a terrific program, provided that idiot, Mara stays out of it. He is my biggest concern.
RE: can't change coasches ever year  
Essex : 10/15/2018 10:28 am : link
In comment 14127049 Steve in South Jersey said:
Quote:
I would give him another season. Parcells almost got fired after his first season in 1983.

I am not saying to fire Shurmur, but the Parcells analogy only goes so far since it was his first time as an NFL head coach and the learning curve is steep. Giving a young coach some room to develop is smart. Shurmur, on the other hand, is not a first time coach and has presumably had many years to focus in on why it failed in Cleveland. I was not expecting miracles of 3-13 to 10-6, but I was expecting a team to play good, fundamental football. That has not happened. The Special Team is a disaster, the clock management has not been very good, our game plans do not look particularly strong, we can't tackle well. These are things that I think directly reflect on the coach, and someone in their second stint I would expect the attention to detail to be better than it has here.
Jury is still out...  
Rong5611 : 10/15/2018 10:42 am : link
Give the guy a chance. No way he's fired this year, nor should he be. Would hope there is improvement next year and the year after that.
Eli Manning is the common denominator for whats going on now.  
Jersey55 : 10/15/2018 11:47 am : link
the Giants made a bad decision in the offseason to try to build this team around Eli and all of his shortcomings, everybody knew what Eli couldn't do and they tried to build this team around the fact that Eli's expiration date had expired,IMO the day of the pocket passer is over.....
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