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This was obviously a rebuild

GiantGrit : 10/13/2018 6:54 pm


The Giants cut half the roster right before the season started. HALF. That in no way signals a team ready to compete. That was the obvious sign they did not think this team was ready. Can anyone even mention the last time a team acted in this manner?


- Why would they come out and tell everyone they are in a full on rebuild? Who does that benefit? Ok, it appeases our minds. Does that help them sell tickets? Why not let the year play out before announcing you think the team sucks?

- I don't see which signing signaled a "win now". Solder? They had to come away with a notable offensive lineman and no matter who your QB is, it is imperative you have someone at least adequate at left tackle. Yes, he needs to play better. It was still a good signing.

- Why is barely anyone mentioning this upcoming off season is the first time they can easily get out of Eli's contract? If you aren't sure if you're taking a QB (which they weren't at the time of these "win now" quotes before the draft) Why would you come out and say anything besides comments that show confidence in Eli?

- In regards to Eli, what plausible scenarios existed in which they moved on after last off season? a trade? Who was going to trade for Eli?

- Once you realize they could not get rid of him, it also explains why they did not say they were in a rebuild. Can you imagine the media's reaction to an announced rebuild with Eli still on the team? They would have gotten killed.

- Saquon Barkley was the best player in the draft and is already, arguably, the best running back in the league. We know this only 6 games into the season. Not picking a quarterback in the first season of a rebuild is OK. I'd say it looks certain we take a QB in the next 2 drafts. They have the weapons to succeed; the line as we all know needs work. As others have mentioned, Gettleman finds gems on the line.
Andrew Norwell - undrafted (1st team all pro)
Daryl Williams - 4th round pick (2nd team all pro)


Personally, i am excited. I actually think we're approaching the end of this mediocre era. I still like Gettleman and i still like Shurmur. They are not going to put up with bullshit (Hart and Flowers release; Odell fine)


You need to give these guys more than 6 games. I know that is asking a lot. I am not saying fans do not have every right to be annoyed; the team sucks again

bottom line - this organization needs to start drafting well and consistently. Last year was a great start. This regimes defining moment will be who they pick at quarterback.
Good post.  
Ira : 10/13/2018 7:03 pm : link
I pretty much agree with everything you said.
Good post  
giantsFC : 10/13/2018 7:09 pm : link
You have my vote for 2020.

I needed this positive post.

Like!
Yeah  
rocco8112 : 10/13/2018 7:21 pm : link
this was positive and rational post. Hard to be positive watching football this bad, but you managed to do it. Your first point about cutting half the team makes sense and I never looked at it like that before. True about Barkley too, he looks so very good. I hope Solder starts playing better though, he looks bad right now and is good for at least one whiff for a clean shot at the QB a game. He was supposed to add stability and confidence in the line.
Wow! Somebody that gets it!  
Red Dog : 10/13/2018 7:31 pm : link
Good post.
Great post  
Rjanyg : 10/13/2018 7:35 pm : link
I want to add that not only are there 30 new players this year, the entire starting Offensive Line is different from last year. The whole unit.

In 2004, the O Line had 2 new starters, adding Ohara and Snee to Suebert and Diehl. 2005, brought McKenzie and that was the line that played together for 5 years, until Ohara retired and Baas was signed in 2011 and Kevin Booth took over at LG.

Right now, we have Solder and Hernandez as keepers. We need to see if Wheeler can prove he is a piece of the puzzle, I think he has a shot. Next year a Center and RG need to be brought in. It wouldn't happen in one off season like many have said here.

This team is a rebuilding team. Barkley was the right choice. Next year get your QB.

Solder  
GoBlue6599 : 10/13/2018 7:35 pm : link
He has to play a whole lot better before we label him a "good signing"
Thank you for this post.  
smshmth8690 : 10/13/2018 7:46 pm : link
Rational, and to the point. I'm as upset with the shitty season as everyone else, but if you didn't think this is the start of a rebuild, with hopes of playing well, then you weren't paying attention.
RE: Great post  
simbapenn : 10/13/2018 7:50 pm : link
In comment 14126850 Rjanyg said:
Quote:

This team is a rebuilding team. Barkley was the right choice. Next year get your QB.


It could be in 2020 we get our QB. This off-season won't be enough to fill the holes we have.
You know it’s a rebuild  
Emil : 10/13/2018 7:52 pm : link
Because they brought something like 33 new players onto the roster and continued to adjust the final 53 after cut down day.

Despite the public statements from Mara and Gettleman this team was not built to win now. Just look at the roster going forward.

- Quite probably only one of three QBs currently on the roster will be in blue next year.
- Aside from OBJ and Shepherd none of the other WRs are keepers.
- Only Solder and Hernandez are worth keeping as starters.
- Vernon and Carter should be the starting OLB next year, but everyone else at the position is a journeyman.
- Ogletree has been very active in the middle, but Armstrong, Stupar, and Goodson are part timers.
- The secondary really only has one fixture, Collins. Apple overall has played better but his future is uncertain. There is a gaping hole at FS and I expect Jenkins will be traded or be cut for cap reasons.

This team is a patchwork-in-progress. That along with subpar QB play is why they are losing. They are simply NOT built to win consistently.
Denver  
AcidTest : 10/13/2018 8:01 pm : link
was apparently interested in Eli, but I don't know if there were any serious discussions. I am fine with the decision to stay with Eli and take Barkley, but although we need to reserve judgment until the end of the season, it looks like Eil is done.

The OL is an even bigger problem. Solder has not played well enough to justify his contract. Darwin, Omameh, Martin, and Stewart should not have been signed.

Love the draft. Barkley, Hernandez, Carter, and Hill have all contributed, and look like they will for years. Lauletta is probably a backup. McIntosh is an unknown.
To the OP...  
sxdxca : 10/13/2018 8:02 pm : link
If you want to keep lying to yourself, that this was always a rebuild from the start, go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better.

The reality of the matter is Gettleman went out and used up 173 out of 177 million in cap space this year, to put a winner on the field.

He trade away a 4th and 6th rd pick for Ogletree, took on his 42 million dollar contract. Signed Beckham to 95 Million, Signed Solder for 62 million, Traded next years 3rd rd pick for Sam Beal, and I've only just begun.

Also here are some quotes from Mara himself about Eli before the season began. Notice if Mara felt like this was a rebuild, or if they were going all in on Eli, and I quote...

“I think he has a cast around him now that maybe we haven’t had for quite a few years. So we do have some expectations this year."

“I feel like we have a roster that’s good enough to be in the postseason if things break our way and we stay healthy,” says Mara, acknowledging he was similarly hopeful last year before it all went wrong. “We have a little different makeup in the locker room right now. I think we’re better prepared to deal with adversity when it comes along. Health is always gonna be the X-factor in the NFL, and if we can stay reasonably healthy, I think we have a chance.”

“I look back at this past offseason: ‘Did we do everything we could have done to put the best possible team on the field?’ And I think we have,” he says.

There ya go....
It's obviously  
Jerry in DC : 10/13/2018 8:04 pm : link
a rebuild now. Don't think that was the intent of the "brain" trust coming into the year nor the interpretation of the fans. After another year of futility, there's no other way to rationalize it than to say we're rebuilding. But we were not rebuilding this off-season.

This is kind of a "you're not breaking up with me, I'm breaking up with you" situation.
RE: To the OP...  
Justlurking : 10/13/2018 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14126890 sxdxca said:
Quote:
If you want to keep lying to yourself, that this was always a rebuild from the start, go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better.

The reality of the matter is Gettleman went out and used up 173 out of 177 million in cap space this year, to put a winner on the field.

He trade away a 4th and 6th rd pick for Ogletree, took on his 42 million dollar contract. Signed Beckham to 95 Million, Signed Solder for 62 million, Traded next years 3rd rd pick for Sam Beal, and I've only just begun.

Also here are some quotes from Mara himself about Eli before the season began. Notice if Mara felt like this was a rebuild, or if they were going all in on Eli, and I quote...

“I think he has a cast around him now that maybe we haven’t had for quite a few years. So we do have some expectations this year."

“I feel like we have a roster that’s good enough to be in the postseason if things break our way and we stay healthy,” says Mara, acknowledging he was similarly hopeful last year before it all went wrong. “We have a little different makeup in the locker room right now. I think we’re better prepared to deal with adversity when it comes along. Health is always gonna be the X-factor in the NFL, and if we can stay reasonably healthy, I think we have a chance.”

“I look back at this past offseason: ‘Did we do everything we could have done to put the best possible team on the field?’ And I think we have,” he says.

There ya go....


^^^ this. the OP is simply reverse engineering.
RE: You know it’s a rebuild  
GoBlue6599 : 10/13/2018 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14126878 Emil said:
[quote] Because they brought something like 33 new players onto the roster and continued to adjust the final 53 after cut down day.

Despite the public statements from Mara and Gettleman this team was not built to win now. Just look at the roster going forward.

- Quite probably only one of three QBs currently on the roster will be in blue next year.
- Aside from OBJ and Shepherd none of the other WRs are keepers.
- Only Solder and Hernandez are worth keeping as starters.
- Vernon and Carter should be the starting OLB next year, but everyone else at the position is a journeyman.
- Ogletree has been very active in the middle, but Armstrong, Stupar, and Goodson are part timers.
- The secondary really only has one fixture, Collins. Apple overall has played better but his future is uncertain. There is a gaping hole at FS and I expect Jenkins will be traded or be cut for cap reasons.

This team is a patchwork-in-progress. That along with subpar QB play is why they are losing. They are simply NOT built to win consistently. [replace imo
Why cut Jenkins? He wont be easy to replace imo
What is going on with these threads and debating  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2018 8:13 pm : link
whether the FO knew this was a rebuilding year or not?

Is another type of BBI-agendas that go on forever...
RE: It's obviously  
gmenatlarge : 10/13/2018 8:20 pm : link
In comment 14126892 Jerry in DC said:
Quote:
a rebuild now. Don't think that was the intent of the "brain" trust coming into the year nor the interpretation of the fans. After another year of futility, there's no other way to rationalize it than to say we're rebuilding. But we were not rebuilding this off-season.

This is kind of a "you're not breaking up with me, I'm breaking up with you" situation.


+1 It’s not you it’s me! Costanza
You're excited?  
jcn56 : 10/13/2018 8:22 pm : link
Is there a daily medication you might have missed somewhere?

The 'notable offensive lineman' we got stinks so far, and the OL is just as bad or worse than last year.

I get it was a rebuild - and even if they were stupid enough to believe what they publicly said, they get that it's a rebuild now too. But what gives you any confidence that the people in charge should be the ones doing the rebuilding?
Revisionist history  
gmenatlarge : 10/13/2018 8:25 pm : link
If it was a total rebuild you don’t make the moves DG did, doesn’t make sense. Plus do you do it with an old GM and an old retread coach and an old QB.
Grit  
joeinpa : 10/13/2018 8:27 pm : link
A well stated case for a rebuild-Googs with a well thought out counter punch

Who s right? I don't know, but regardless, it s a rebuild now.
I agree with most of the post..  
EricJ : 10/13/2018 8:28 pm : link
but I will say this. We are going to have a top 5 pick next year. We will absolutely have to draft our QB. If we don't, then yeah I will really start to question the front office.
RE: I agree with most of the post..  
lax counsel : 10/13/2018 9:16 pm : link
In comment 14126929 EricJ said:
Quote:
but I will say this. We are going to have a top 5 pick next year. We will absolutely have to draft our QB. If we don't, then yeah I will really start to question the front office.


My thought is this, if the Giants took barkley, who’s is a transcendent talent and thought that they will do whatever it takes to get the next franchise qb whether it be in 2019 or 2020, then I think they had a reasonable enough plan. It they thought was we ll throw any average joe (post Eli) next to Barkley, then I think the they made an major mistake. And I tnink they’ll waste Barkley’s talent.

As others have pointed out, I hope this is a Rams like situation.

RE: RE: I agree with most of the post..  
EricJ : 10/13/2018 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14126980 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14126929 EricJ said:


Quote:


but I will say this. We are going to have a top 5 pick next year. We will absolutely have to draft our QB. If we don't, then yeah I will really start to question the front office.



My thought is this, if the Giants took barkley, who’s is a transcendent talent and thought that they will do whatever it takes to get the next franchise qb whether it be in 2019 or 2020, then I think they had a reasonable enough plan. It they thought was we ll throw any average joe (post Eli) next to Barkley, then I think the they made an major mistake. And I tnink they’ll waste Barkley’s talent.

As others have pointed out, I hope this is a Rams like situation.


I agree but right now they basically have an average Joe QB now. If you truly take the emotion out of it, you can honestly list about 20 QBs ahead of Eli right now. Every QB in the league can make an occasional good throw throughout every game.

The question is whether they truly knew that going into the season.
Obviolsuy the OP is wrong  
giantstock : 10/13/2018 9:50 pm : link
This was NOT a rebuild according to the ACTIONS done by the G-Men.

Getting Solder and Stewart. Keeping Eli. Not trading Jenkins.

It's laughable to suggest that because the Gmen got rid of subs they were somehow in a rebuild mode.
Bottom line  
FStubbs : 10/13/2018 10:37 pm : link
You don't sign guys 30+ to big contracts if you're rebuilding.

No, Gettleman thought he could patch things and make a bet that the 2016 Giants weren't the aberration that they were.
you don't sign  
MookGiants : 10/13/2018 10:38 pm : link
Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.
RE: RE: To the OP...  
GiantGrit : 10/13/2018 10:53 pm : link
In comment 14126893 Justlurking said:
Quote:
In comment 14126890 sxdxca said:


Quote:


If you want to keep lying to yourself, that this was always a rebuild from the start, go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better.

The reality of the matter is Gettleman went out and used up 173 out of 177 million in cap space this year, to put a winner on the field.

He trade away a 4th and 6th rd pick for Ogletree, took on his 42 million dollar contract. Signed Beckham to 95 Million, Signed Solder for 62 million, Traded next years 3rd rd pick for Sam Beal, and I've only just begun.

Also here are some quotes from Mara himself about Eli before the season began. Notice if Mara felt like this was a rebuild, or if they were going all in on Eli, and I quote...

“I think he has a cast around him now that maybe we haven’t had for quite a few years. So we do have some expectations this year."

“I feel like we have a roster that’s good enough to be in the postseason if things break our way and we stay healthy,” says Mara, acknowledging he was similarly hopeful last year before it all went wrong. “We have a little different makeup in the locker room right now. I think we’re better prepared to deal with adversity when it comes along. Health is always gonna be the X-factor in the NFL, and if we can stay reasonably healthy, I think we have a chance.”

“I look back at this past offseason: ‘Did we do everything we could have done to put the best possible team on the field?’ And I think we have,” he says.

There ya go....



^^^ this. the OP is simply reverse engineering.


Where’s the rebuttal for cutting half the roster? What contender does that?

His signings haven’t been great. But i will ask -

When is there a bad time to sign an above average left tackle?

How does taking a player in a supplemental draft signal a “win now” move? Where are the quotes saying they didn’t expect him to play much this year?
RE: I agree with most of the post..  
GiantGrit : 10/13/2018 10:54 pm : link
In comment 14126929 EricJ said:
Quote:
but I will say this. We are going to have a top 5 pick next year. We will absolutely have to draft our QB. If we don't, then yeah I will really start to question the front office.


Agreed - the Giants have scouted Herbert a few times already 🤔
RE: you don't sign  
GiantGrit : 10/13/2018 10:58 pm : link
In comment 14127097 MookGiants said:
Quote:
Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.


Why is signing an above average tackle in a league with putrid offensive linemen bad for business?
RE: Solder  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/13/2018 11:03 pm : link
In comment 14126851 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
He has to play a whole lot better before we label him a "good signing"

I think many of us knew it wasn't a good signing, he's not Anthony Munoz. But desperation...
RE: RE: I agree with most of the post..  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/13/2018 11:04 pm : link
In comment 14127108 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14126929 EricJ said:


Quote:


but I will say this. We are going to have a top 5 pick next year. We will absolutely have to draft our QB. If we don't, then yeah I will really start to question the front office.



Agreed - the Giants have scouted Herbert a few times already 🤔

I think bucktooth Elway was at the game too.
A sane, rational post  
kennyd : 10/13/2018 11:06 pm : link
what the hell happened here? I come for the bat shit crazy posts! Damnit!
RE: RE: you don't sign  
giantstock : 10/13/2018 11:14 pm : link
In comment 14127114 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14127097 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.



Why is signing an above average tackle in a league with putrid offensive linemen bad for business?


Why couldn't they sign Hubbard and Fulton who are YOUNGER than SOlder.

Are you that thick that you don't understand it would be better to sign TWO pretty good linemen than sign one good lineman and then one bad lineman in Ommameh?
RE: RE: you don't sign  
MookGiants : 10/14/2018 12:02 am : link
In comment 14127114 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14127097 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.



Why is signing an above average tackle in a league with putrid offensive linemen bad for business?


Slightly above average. Nothing more. Paying those types of players at age 30 is bad for business if you are rebuilding. Paying above average players elite money when they are 30+ is horrible for business if you are rebuilding.

Staying away from players the Patriots are willing to let go is a good rule of thumb. Brady made Solder look better than he actually was.

I would also argue  
MookGiants : 10/14/2018 12:04 am : link
that giving anyone beside a QB a record setting deal at age 30 is a horrible mistake. Even if you are in contention, teams that give out deals like that are usually the teams picking at the top of the draft.

They didn't have to sign Solder. They needed to be honest with themselves about what this team could be in 2018 and they were not.

RE: RE: RE: To the OP...  
.McL. : 10/14/2018 1:04 am : link
In comment 14127107 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14126893 Justlurking said:


Quote:


In comment 14126890 sxdxca said:


Quote:


If you want to keep lying to yourself, that this was always a rebuild from the start, go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better.

The reality of the matter is Gettleman went out and used up 173 out of 177 million in cap space this year, to put a winner on the field.

He trade away a 4th and 6th rd pick for Ogletree, took on his 42 million dollar contract. Signed Beckham to 95 Million, Signed Solder for 62 million, Traded next years 3rd rd pick for Sam Beal, and I've only just begun.

Also here are some quotes from Mara himself about Eli before the season began. Notice if Mara felt like this was a rebuild, or if they were going all in on Eli, and I quote...

“I think he has a cast around him now that maybe we haven’t had for quite a few years. So we do have some expectations this year."

“I feel like we have a roster that’s good enough to be in the postseason if things break our way and we stay healthy,” says Mara, acknowledging he was similarly hopeful last year before it all went wrong. “We have a little different makeup in the locker room right now. I think we’re better prepared to deal with adversity when it comes along. Health is always gonna be the X-factor in the NFL, and if we can stay reasonably healthy, I think we have a chance.”

“I look back at this past offseason: ‘Did we do everything we could have done to put the best possible team on the field?’ And I think we have,” he says.

There ya go....



^^^ this. the OP is simply reverse engineering.



Where’s the rebuttal for cutting half the roster? What contender does that?

His signings haven’t been great. But i will ask -

When is there a bad time to sign an above average left tackle?

How does taking a player in a supplemental draft signal a “win now” move? Where are the quotes saying they didn’t expect him to play much this year?


The cut the guys who sucked and kept the good ones...


Oh wait...


I guess they should have cut another 9 or 10 guys...
Lies  
Dragon : 10/14/2018 2:12 am : link
That’s the problem from the start is it a rebuild no, however you gut the roster and invest in a few highly overpaid vets. We still have to many guys that most of us have never heard of much less the league that’s not a rebuild that’s a dream. The team leaders still don’t exist and the world now knows our QB does not have any years left. We don’t want to hear about a rebuild or a team ready to compete we want to see something that gives us hope we have yet to see that. Will they win five games I don’t know but that’s not what we were told to expect so for sure somebody lied.
RE: RE: RE: you don't sign  
GiantGrit : 10/14/2018 5:41 am : link
In comment 14127139 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14127114 GiantGrit said:


Quote:


In comment 14127097 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.



Why is signing an above average tackle in a league with putrid offensive linemen bad for business?



Slightly above average. Nothing more. Paying those types of players at age 30 is bad for business if you are rebuilding. Paying above average players elite money when they are 30+ is horrible for business if you are rebuilding.

Staying away from players the Patriots are willing to let go is a good rule of thumb. Brady made Solder look better than he actually was.


The Patriots wanted to keep him and supposedly made him a good offer but the Giants came in too high...

look, in most circumstances i would agree. But given the state of this team and the state of the offensive line over the last 8 years, i don't have a problem with trying to solve left tackle for 3-5 years. He needs to pick up a his play, but he's still grading out as above average with PFF (not the be all end all of course)
giant grit  
hassan : 10/14/2018 8:53 am : link
good post. people should not read into the public comments so
much. A lot of pc talk, they probably had to publically say nice things about manning as he had to start at least this year while knowing they had to find his replacement.

RE: RE: RE: RE: you don't sign  
giantstock : 10/14/2018 10:55 am : link
In comment 14127203 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
In comment 14127139 MookGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14127114 GiantGrit said:


Quote:


In comment 14127097 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Solder to the richest deal for a LT in league history if you think this is a rebuild. That would just be plain old bad business.



Why is signing an above average tackle in a league with putrid offensive linemen bad for business?



Slightly above average. Nothing more. Paying those types of players at age 30 is bad for business if you are rebuilding. Paying above average players elite money when they are 30+ is horrible for business if you are rebuilding.

Staying away from players the Patriots are willing to let go is a good rule of thumb. Brady made Solder look better than he actually was.




The Patriots wanted to keep him and supposedly made him a good offer but the Giants came in too high...

look, in most circumstances i would agree. But given the state of this team and the state of the offensive line over the last 8 years, i don't have a problem with trying to solve left tackle for 3-5 years. He needs to pick up a his play, but he's still grading out as above average with PFF (not the be all end all of course)


Why not use all the money spent on Solder and Omameh and Stewart to sign one young pretty good takcle and one good cetner or guard?

Why sign Eli?
The OP gets it  
Dave on the UWS : 10/14/2018 12:41 pm : link
he didn’t listen to the spin or the crap. As far as the contracts go, you almost ALWAYS overpay in FA especially when everyone knows you are over a barrel. The OL and LB units were SO bad that Getts was in a bad spot to upgrade them. Ogletree and Solder were necessary and under different circumstances I highly doubt they get the contracts they did. This is going to be messy for some time yet.
RE: The OP gets it  
giantstock : 10/14/2018 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14127547 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
he didn’t listen to the spin or the crap. As far as the contracts go, you almost ALWAYS overpay in FA especially when everyone knows you are over a barrel. The OL and LB units were SO bad that Getts was in a bad spot to upgrade them. Ogletree and Solder were necessary and under different circumstances I highly doubt they get the contracts they did. This is going to be messy for some time yet.


Nooooo-- you don't go overpay to the extreme the G-Men did for AN OLDER LT in Solder. You're making it up.

Gmen could have went after Hubbard.
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