6 games into the season, we are now 1-5. We are in last place. We've already established that this football team has absolutely no chance at the playoffs and that they are bad.
We all know we need a QB. Whether you think Eli is done now or are hanging onto him playing another 2 years - we need a QB.
Obviously the more we lose, the better our pick will be.
So, the question is simple. Which of these things do you think are more important to the future of the Giants?
Is it more important to win a few games down the stretch, compromise draft position, but build a more positive foundation before next year with a new coach?
OR...
Is winning games from here on out nothing more than something that will make it harder to draft Justin Herbert (or the QB of our choice come April) and something that is only going to hurt the team long-term?
I'm not suggesting the team intentionally set out to lose games.
My question is just from a fan perspective.
What are you rooting for over the final 10 games? Are you actively hoping the team loses? Are you still hoping they'll turn it around somehow and will get back into the division mix? Do you just want to see wins for "pride" or culture?
It's very, very sad that I am posing this question on October 14th, but... the Giants are putrid. They're a truly awful team in disarray and we very clearly need to figure out who Eli's successor is going to be as soon as humanly possible and we need to figure out how to fix this football team. It is broken and it is broken badly. The only team in the NFL with fewer wins over the course of last year and this one are... the Browns.
And sadly, the Browns are now in better shape than the Giants are. I think that's actually inarguable. I would gladly take their roster and their future over what is here right now.
So - what are you rooting for? What do you want to see happen between now and the end of the year?
This.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong - but that's what the compromise probably is.
Unless we are in love with Herbert or another QB and decide to trade up to secure him. That's also an option - and I do think if you're totally sold on a college QB, you should go and make sure you get him.
I'll never be able to accept being the doormat of the NFL. Could not appreciate it until April at the podium.
this team has no third round pick and a lot of needs. the earlier picks the better
This team will be lucky to match the 3 wins from last year.
I know some want to wait until the 2020 draft to find a QB. To those people I ask what happens if the top two teams in the draft need QB's? They aren't going to trade the pick unless they are absolutely blown away with an offer. The Giants would then risk coming away empty handed while Herbert and Haskins are in year two starting to break out.
I'll never understand rooting to lose for a better draft position when there are so many variables involved. I assume most fans have played some type of sport and did you ever play to lose? Of course not!
If they go 2-14 I would make changes including the GM/HC. Moves were made to compete this year & Shurmur’s career record won’t warrant another year.
And, of course, pray like hell that there's a really good player worthy of being selected #1 overall in 2019. That's where all of our rooting efforts should be entrenched.
Either win the SB or get the highest draft pick as possible.
And, since I don't believe in magical thinking, I know my internal thoughts actually have zero impact upon what actually happens, therefore I am free to ROOT for the Giants to play great while at the same time be satisfied with the outcome (either because they win or they get a better draft position when they lose).
...that's your answer.
And we will then choose the best QB on the Board to replace the recently retired (or fired) Eli Manning.
This is an example of "magical thinking" I was talking about. Do you think "our rooting efforts" creates some form of group consciousness that invades the locker room and influences players via some form of telepathy?
This isnt the NBA. These games matter.
If they go 2-14 I would make changes including the GM/HC. Moves were made to compete this year & Shurmur’s career record won’t warrant another year.
The issue with trading up is the cost. IF the Giants are picking 6-10 they will need to surrender a 2020 1st round pick to move up to the #1 pick. That's the problem as that pick will likely be in the top 15 probably top 10 which will prevent the Giants from address the OL, pass rush, CB, etc.
They can't fire Gettleman and Shurmur after a year. Gettleman inherited a mess and did anyone honestly expect them to fix it in one offseason? They were 3-13 last year. Does anyone remember that? There was a reason they were 3-13 and that was because of a weak roster due to years of poor drafting. With one draft Gettleman has already added one elite franchise player and two good starters in Hernandez and Hill. Carter looks like a future starter at OLB also. Four starters out of 6 picks is a homerun. Lauletta should be a solid and cheap backup starting next year. How can you justify firing him after that? He gave Stewart 3.5 million guaranteed woopty fucking doo.
Barkley is the only one on this team that could start for 85% of the teams?
Holy shit.
If they go 2-14 I would make changes including the GM/HC. Moves were made to compete this year & Shurmur’s career record won’t warrant another year.
Yes, but you have to consider the difference in cost.
I'd rather just have the top pick or top 3 pick than have to sacrifice additional resources to get up there.
I know it worked out with Eli - and like I said in my last post, I do believe if you have full conviction on a QB, you should move up and secure him - but we're already out a 3rd rd pick next year. Say we win 6 games and are picking somewhere in the 10-15 range and have to move up 10 or more spots to get the guy we want - it is going to be costly and put a major dent in the available resources necessary for this rebuild.
I would want us to go get our guy if we really believed in him, but it'd make the process a whole lot easier if we didn't have to sacrifice premium picks to do it.
If they go 2-14 I would make changes including the GM/HC. Moves were made to compete this year & Shurmur’s career record won’t warrant another year.
Basically - would you take 2 wins this year if it cost us a 2nd round pick in next year's draft?
No thanks.
Don't have a stash of draft picks to trade up and don't see them stripping future drafts for this QB class.
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they have much of a choice. Other than Barkley on Offense there is not a person on this team that could start for 85% of the teams out there.
Barkley is the only one on this team that could start for 85% of the teams?
Holy shit.
Wow
This isnt the NBA. These games matter.
"Promoting losing" by fans internal thoughts? C'mon. My thoughts and your thoughts are not magically transferred to the players.
There's wisdom in knowing when to build for the future.
You know what erodes credibility in the coach and organization? The chirade each week in the post game press conference about how good we practiced, how we have to execute better, how we have to keep working.
Every single man in that building is cringing when they hear it every week.
It's time to see if Laulleta has an NFL calliber arm, and frankly if he's got the goods to be a back up next year. It's time to see if Wheeler and Omameh can build a little confidence if the Giants commit to the run early and often. It's to see if Engram is more productive split outside and not banging around at the LOS.
All of it will come at the expense of the illusion of trying to win.
But realistically, getting a top three pick is necessary for the future.
10 more competitive loses..
As should be the case, we get all revved up for the season during the long offseason... coaching moves, free agency, draft, training camp...
And then by October, the season is already over.
It's worse this year because the NFC East is garbage right now.
I do not want a stupid situation where they win enough to make everyone “feel good” and then either can’t draft the guy they want or have to give up picks/players to move up.
6-10 is just as bad as 1-15, worse because you don’t even get the top pick for your struggles. Just fucking lose and draft well and maybe this team will be on the right track next year.
Just lose baby!
Coach- Shurmur has the right demeanor to straighten out this mess. He actually did pretty well in Cleveland if you compare his 2 yrs there with a LOT of their other years over the last 20. He's worked well within the constructs of several organizations. He has to show me he can weather this storm, keep the ship afloat AND make progress as a team. (better discipline, better play, some wins- make progress towards getting the stench of losing out).
Roster- the single biggest issue is the QB position. That HAS to be resolved this off-season. There was NO WAY Eli wasn't going to be the QB this year because of his contract. The rest of the crap was and is just hyperbole. NEXT year is a different story, whether he plays decently the rest of this year or not. He represents the past, they need to move to the future and its not happening if he's still here.
The rest of the roster just needs time. Its not a quick fix.
Too early for me. I just wanted games that mattered, until the 9 th loss or sooner, I ll pretend they do. Then, yep, root for higher pick.
But won't be bumbed by losses as is the norm.
We had seen it before, with Simms. We were prepared for it.
Unfortunately, we didn't have a good handle on when it would end. Some thought earlier, some thought later. But we all figured that we would ultimately pay for the success that brought us two championships, and in the form of losing seasons.
Well, the bill is on the table, it's time to pay.
Even if we're not adding a QB - why possibly lose out on a much better blue chip player in exchange for some meaningless wins?
Not to mention - who knows how a run might impact the decision making here? These guys likely thought they were a few tweaks from a run this season. The way this season has unfolded might have changed some minds. Do you want to take the risk that their initial estimations are reinforced by a few untimely wins this season?
Who wants to watch the Giants fukkin lose?????
If they had lost more games in 1978 they could have drafted the QB they preferred, Jack Thompson (winner of 4 games in 6 NFL seasons) instead of Phil Simms.
I know that these are exceptions and that the higher the pick the better your chances of success. But there is no "touched by the hand of God" QB available in the draft this year that would make me start rooting AGAINST the Giants after 6 games.
Getting the second, third, or fourth, someone could trade up and take it from you..
I like Herbert a lot, so I'd definitely be pretty pissed about missing out on him due to a couple of meaningless wins.
BUT.. the silver lining is that if we really suck again next year, Tua Tagovailoa will be in the 2020 draft.
That's who I really want - but I don't know if I can deal with ANOTHER year of being one of the worst (if not the worst) teams in football after this.
Let's pretend that the Giants agree with you. If the Giants have the #1 pick and a team like Denver wants to trade up for a QB then the Giants could trade down a few spots while grabbing a 2020 1st round pick as part of the package. The Giants could then take a pass rusher or OT with the pick and the extra 2020 1st round pick could end up being in the top 10 along with the Giants. That would give them two premium picks to get one of the top QB's in the 2020 class. That's a good reason for them to lose.
It’s easy for fans, especially cynical ones to say, “tank” and get a high draft pick, but that’s just gross. Anyone who played sports know that’s a terrible environment. People always look to be inspired, in sports, in life. Play to win every week. You never know what will happen and allow things to run it’s course. Don’t just give up.
That's what people said about this year's QBs and they've already at least flashed in the first 6 games of their career. The QB we draft is NOT going to be perfect when we draft him.
People really have to get that through their thick skulls. Holy shit.
The only thing this thread is about is the "magical thinking" of fans hoping for a high draft pick actually causing the team to lose (which is even more dumb)
It’s easy for fans, especially cynical ones to say, “tank” and get a high draft pick, but that’s just gross. Anyone who played sports know that’s a terrible environment. People always look to be inspired, in sports, in life. Play to win every week. You never know what will happen and allow things to run it’s course. Don’t just give up.
I'm not asking the team to lose on purpose - I'm simply asking what fans would prefer to see happen.
There's an important difference.
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So I'm fine with winning.
Let's pretend that the Giants agree with you. If the Giants have the #1 pick and a team like Denver wants to trade up for a QB then the Giants could trade down a few spots while grabbing a 2020 1st round pick as part of the package. The Giants could then take a pass rusher or OT with the pick and the extra 2020 1st round pick could end up being in the top 10 along with the Giants. That would give them two premium picks to get one of the top QB's in the 2020 class. That's a good reason for them to lose.
I tend to think this might be the best long term strategy. We have a lot of needs. And Tua might be the real prize.
Good luck with this offense.
The losing culture is endemic to this team because of the dirth of talent at the most important positions.
The Giants cut all the mean, bad guys and they still suck. They gave a bunch of money to old really nice guys and they still suck.
This team is going to keep losing until there is far better QB play, far better offensive line play, and a far better pass rush.
There's no boogie man mystery to the losing of this team. It's the TEAM.
Look back at the draft. The Giants got a lot of good players because they picked near the top every round. That's how it should happen. That's the only way it happens.
The only thing this thread is about is the "magical thinking" of fans hoping for a high draft pick actually causing the team to lose (which is even more dumb)
You don't believe in the power of positive thinking?
I mean, it doesn't work on my stock portfolio, but it has to work somewhere, right?
The biggest disappointment is that the division is weak. They could have and should have had a reasonable shot at the playoffs.
The OL woes I get but what happened to the defense. They are no showing especially in the 2nd half.
You want them to lose in the SB?
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In comment 14127470 Greg from LI said:
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So I'm fine with winning.
Let's pretend that the Giants agree with you. If the Giants have the #1 pick and a team like Denver wants to trade up for a QB then the Giants could trade down a few spots while grabbing a 2020 1st round pick as part of the package. The Giants could then take a pass rusher or OT with the pick and the extra 2020 1st round pick could end up being in the top 10 along with the Giants. That would give them two premium picks to get one of the top QB's in the 2020 class. That's a good reason for them to lose.
I tend to think this might be the best long term strategy. We have a lot of needs. And Tua might be the real prize.
The one issue in this scenario is which team has the 2020 1st overall pick. If they need a QB they aren't going to trade the pick unless the Giants offer a franchise crippling package.
There's absolutely no downside to picking at the top. And as an added bonus you get to pick at the top of the other rounds too. Crazy, right?
If they had another couple of wins, they'd have missed out on him. The Colts and Texans would both be ahead, and we'd be tied with the Broncos (and not sure if that tiebreaker would have resulted in us being ahead or them).
Would you rather have had another couple of wins last season, as opposed to Barkley?
If they had another couple of wins, they'd have missed out on him. The Colts and Texans would both be ahead, and we'd be tied with the Broncos (and not sure if that tiebreaker would have resulted in us being ahead or them).
Would you rather have had another couple of wins last season, as opposed to Barkley?
That's exactly it.
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Do you really think any Giants fan is signing onto management asking the players to sign onto losing intentionally? Nobody I know of is suggesting that and that would never happen.
The only thing this thread is about is the "magical thinking" of fans hoping for a high draft pick actually causing the team to lose (which is even more dumb)
You don't believe in the power of positive thinking?
I mean, it doesn't work on my stock portfolio, but it has to work somewhere, right?
ummm... the power of positive thinking certainly can influence my thoughts... but I'm not ready to sign onto the "magical thinking" that BBI group thoughts can influence third persons... lol
You have to spend money to make money .... money right now is losses. Money in the future hopefully will be wins.
OL ... and what happened to the Giants defense that the Giants have been known for since the 50's? Even when all else was failing they always had a respectable to Good defense.
I guess the caveat there is that we also went from Fassel to Coughlin after the 2003 season and 2003 wasn't Fassel's first year here. He had been here since 97.
I really don't think we are going to fire Shurmur after 1 year even if we go like 3-13. 3 coaches in 3 seasons just screams panic, instability, and chaos.
For better or worse, I think they've got to give Pat time with a new QB and another offseason where Gettleman can continue to hopefully rebuild this OL.
This team is horrible. Need to rip the bandaid off with the QB situation
This team is horrible. Need to rip the bandaid off with the QB situation
I just hope there is a "Franchise QB" out there when we are in a position to take one.
OL ... and what happened to the Giants defense that the Giants have been known for since the 50's? Even when all else was failing they always had a respectable to Good defense.
Oh, of course - this team is awful. We need a ton of help.
The reason I zeroed in on QB in the OP is because that's 100% what we're doing in the draft barring some crazy, unforeseen circumstances - and because it's the most important thing to address.
We need TONS of help elsewhere. We need better WR depth, we need more OL help, we need DB help (particularly @ FS)
But for the Giants, it has to be all about who the next QB is now. It doesn't matter if Eli is here again next year or not - we have to prepare for life after Eli ASAP. It has to start there.
It is like Clemenza said to Michael (while he was making the tomato sauce?) ... "We have to go to war - usually every 10 years to clean out the bullshit" - (or something like that).
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We need more (much more) than just a new QB.
OL ... and what happened to the Giants defense that the Giants have been known for since the 50's? Even when all else was failing they always had a respectable to Good defense.
Oh, of course - this team is awful. We need a ton of help.
The reason I zeroed in on QB in the OP is because that's 100% what we're doing in the draft barring some crazy, unforeseen circumstances - and because it's the most important thing to address.
We need TONS of help elsewhere. We need better WR depth, we need more OL help, we need DB help (particularly @ FS)
But for the Giants, it has to be all about who the next QB is now. It doesn't matter if Eli is here again next year or not - we have to prepare for life after Eli ASAP. It has to start there.
I wish there was a like icon so I would not have to type -
+1
1. Draft the QB
2. Waive Eli
3. Sign a veteran backup QB who can start a few games if we need him to. Someone like Fitzpatrick.
I'm sort of torn on the new GM/HC angle because I feel like 3 new coaches in 3 years is what panicky, chaotic franchises with no plan and no direction do... but I guess that describes us at this point.
I'd like to give the coach a chance with a rookie QB and I'd like to give Gettleman another offseason to work on the OL. I think Reese left this roster in such bad shape that it was nearly impossible to fix in one year.
That said - there's a serious culture issue here. The foundation of this org is rotten and there's no easy answer here.
But I really don't think it'll do us any good to win 5-6 games - I'd rather just be awful. Take the high draft pick, take the QB.. go from there.
#1 pick plus upgrading from this buffoon....that would be amazing
End of story.
No wins are meaningless to all fans..
Wins please,,,always I am watching my boys for a win, and hang in when they lose.... and I have been watching for years..
The 86 season isn't as moving without the shitshow beforehand..
The same could be said for SB42 after the 90's.
If you want to win every year then be a PATS fan...
watch the losses, it make the wins better, stop bitching, they are doing everything from top to bottom to improve the fucking team!
just watch!
To all those looking at the draft next spring...I will be watching that as well
but for the short term, no, it totally sucks!
Ownership needs to be shocked into action.
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Even though we didn't come away with a QB, picking 2nd got you Barkley.
If they had another couple of wins, they'd have missed out on him. The Colts and Texans would both be ahead, and we'd be tied with the Broncos (and not sure if that tiebreaker would have resulted in us being ahead or them).
Would you rather have had another couple of wins last season, as opposed to Barkley?
Yup, going nowhere, I want high draft picks and more roster turnover created.
That's exactly it.
The majority of the roster for the 2019 is already on the team
Your record is a best indication of the quality of your team
With these things in mind I want them to win to show that the have a better team (6 wins) vs a shittier team (3 wins) and have more to build on going forward.
Also add in the fact that what I want dons't impact reality I might as well root for them to win.
I do not want a stupid situation where they win enough to make everyone “feel good” and then either can’t draft the guy they want or have to give up picks/players to move up.
6-10 is just as bad as 1-15, worse because you don’t even get the top pick for your struggles. Just fucking lose and draft well and maybe this team will be on the right track next year.
Just lose baby!
Yup. #suckfortheduck!
That's really more what I was getting at. As a fan, it's a weird spot to be in. It's hard for me to not root for the Giants to win in the midst of a game - but I absolutely would prefer to lose at this point.
More losing might also help flesh out more of the quitters on the roster.
These past couple of years have had to be the most unlikeable Giants teams I can remember in my life, so that makes it easier to hope for losses. I really can't stand this iteration of the team.
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Yes, we are better off losing. Now, if the question was....will you root for the GIants to lose, that's a more reasonable question, IMO.
That's really more what I was getting at. As a fan, it's a weird spot to be in. It's hard for me to not root for the Giants to win in the midst of a game - but I absolutely would prefer to lose at this point.
More losing might also help flesh out more of the quitters on the roster.
These past couple of years have had to be the most unlikeable Giants teams I can remember in my life, so that makes it easier to hope for losses. I really can't stand this iteration of the team.
I know how you feel. For me, I can't root for them to lose(especially in week 6!), but I certainly don't get upset when it happens.
If you feel that is already established, then you'd have to feel losing is better. Now I certainly don't feel this way, but you could argue that in an inconsistent division, there's still a microscopic shred of hope that the Giants can string together a few wins with an easy schedule and get back in this thing.
Again, not my opinion, but that opinion is the only opinion that would lead one to think it isn't better to lose. If you don't feel that way, then you have to think losses help this team's aspirations in the long wrong. And to be clear, I've always been of the opinion that it's fair to say it's best for the team to lose, but also say you aren't rooting for it. For me personally, unless it's literally the last week or two of the season and a top 3 pick is on the line, I've never been able to stomach it.
Others won't root for it, but accept it.
Some, the irrational, don't even accept it.
But from a factual standpoint I agree with others who have said it, this is not even debatable. Every single team that doesn't win it all is probably better off losing every game.
otherwise, how are you better off to improve your team? With pick #1 in every round or pick #31 in every round?
I can tell you, and statistics support it, the closer you draft to #1 the better chance you have of getting a good player.
Others won't root for it, but accept it.
Some, the irrational, don't even accept it.
But from a factual standpoint I agree with others who have said it, this is not even debatable. Every single team that doesn't win it all is probably better off losing every game.
otherwise, how are you better off to improve your team? With pick #1 in every round or pick #31 in every round?
I can tell you, and statistics support it, the closer you draft to #1 the better chance you have of getting a good player.
So, should every NBA team but GSW actively tank beginning tomorrow night?
We can't tolerate another 1-3 years of expansive patches under the guise of putting a winning team on the field.
Unfortunately, much like the way this franchise wasted Manning's golden years the past 6 years, I fear they will do the exact same thing to OBJ and Barkley.
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many fans just can't stomach rooting for their team to lose for a better draft pick.
Others won't root for it, but accept it.
Some, the irrational, don't even accept it.
But from a factual standpoint I agree with others who have said it, this is not even debatable. Every single team that doesn't win it all is probably better off losing every game.
otherwise, how are you better off to improve your team? With pick #1 in every round or pick #31 in every round?
I can tell you, and statistics support it, the closer you draft to #1 the better chance you have of getting a good player.
So, should every NBA team but GSW actively tank beginning tomorrow night?
No. Like I said, after the fact the decision is easy. Nothing worse in the NFL with winding up 7 - 9 or 8 - 8 and even maybe being worse than your record and picking 15th. All said and done, if you miss the playoffs (or don't win it all) you would have been better off losing every game. Do you disagree? It's not really an opinion question.
If you're a contender no one throws in the towel. I guarantee you there are 10 NBA teams who think they could beat GS, maybe more today. Plus, what about injuries? No one knows who will or won't be healthy.
Yep - I agree.
Would be great if they could find ways to win and still get younger/better at all positions of need next year.
Having a 1-15 record may give us cheaper access to the pick of our choice, but it also would mean trying to overcome internal expectations of our players.
So, we build a losing franchise and have to start building a winning culture from scratch next year. Sorry, I wouldn't prefer that. I'd much prefer this team learn to fight through adversity, believe in what the coaches are selling, and learn what it takes to win consistently.
Playoffs or not, it's always better to win imo. 6-10 is double the wins of last year and would mean we went 5-5 the rest of the way. Sounds good to me, even if it drops us to 13-14 in the draft.
If there is a QB we want to target we can make it happen next year. The cost of a few extra picks is less than the cost associated with a losing mindset.
We were 3-13 last year, how's that working out for us?
This thought that we can go from a top five pick to a double digit win and SB contender season the next year is crazy. You need to take steps. Those steps are likely to include middling seasons.
And limit Saquon Barkley’s touches! No more than 200 this year. Screw it - as much as I enjoy watching him play, I’d rather he not incur additional wear and tear in a wasted season.
We were 3-13 last year, how's that working out for us?
This thought that we can go from a top five pick to a double digit win and SB contender season the next year is crazy. You need to take steps. Those steps are likely to include middling seasons.
I guess it depends. If you have a solid core and you're 3 - 13 then making a jump to 8 - 8 or somewhere around there is fine, you're on the upturn.
but if you are 3 - 13 with a rotten core, having a smoke and mirrors season putting yourself in perpetual 8 - 8 land is not a good thing.
It's not about wanting my team to lose. I don't. It's about wanting my team to improve. So while I'm one of those people who won't root for losses, I find the facts simple.
And the whole "culture of winning" is a fan myth IMO. Was there a culture of winning under McAdoo when the Giants went 11 - 5?