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Tuesday Media Transcript: Head Coach Pat Shurmur

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/16/2018 1:41 pm
Head Coach Pat Shurmur
October 16, 2018

Opening Remarks: Weíre back to work, which is good. A little bit typical longer weekend after the Thursday game, so it was nice for everybody to get away and reflect on things we need to get better on Ė coaches, players, everybody involved. We had a good day of practice. Tomorrow, theyíll be off and then back to work for our Monday night game on Thursday. Iíll take your questions.†

Q: What did you find in your reflection?†
A: Some of it is, I think we need to play better, I think we need to coach better, and weíre certainly not happy with the record. I feel like when youíre close in games, you look back on plays here and plays there, and close isnít enough. Weíve got to try to find a way to get it over the top.†

Q: Do you maybe change up some of the schemes, some of the things youíve been doing?†
A: Youíre constantly looking at new things to do. That just happens. Itís like youíre constantly (going) through the game trying to find things that work within your scheme, then youíre always looking for the right combination of players.

Q: You said before the season that it may take four games to have a good handle on what you have, getting to learn the players. Do you feel after six weeks you know what you have and what you donít have?
A: Yeah, I think we have a much better feeling for who the players are and how they respond to a win and how weíre responding to losses, how hard guys work and their competitive spirit and all that, and then what guys can and canít do. As you know, weíre constantly changing up the roster, thereís been a lot of change from a year ago, and we just have to get everybody on the same page doing the things necessary to win games.

Q: Is it fair to say youíve been disappointed by how some have responded?
A: No, Iím not disappointed. Again, Iím getting to know everybody. In this environment when youíre playing games, itís real, and you go through a week process to prepare for a game, then play a game. You learn a lot about people and how people handle adversity, how they push through things, how they handle the good and the bad.†

Q: Do you expect to be active before the trade deadline later this month?
A: I wouldnít comment on that. I donít even know what that means. Does it mean weíre going to make trades? Weíre making changes to the roster all the time, and we did that today.††

Q: Are you thinking about making any changes to the offensive line as you move forward?
A: Weíre looking at really everything, trying to make sure we get the best combination of guys. We like the group we have. Again, we will always continue to improve each group that we have, but we will try to find the right combination.†

Q: Iím sure you watched a couple NFL games over the weekend. Obviously a lot of points scored, the league is in record setting days.
A: Yeah, we havenít scored enough points and I have acknowledged that we need to. We got the ball in the red zone a couple of times last week where we didnít score points. We were stopped on fourth down once, we kicked a couple of field goals, that makes the game a lot different and Iíve acknowledged that. When you get down there, youíve got to score points. We also spotted them seven points, too.

Q: John Mara was quoted saying that he was embarrassed at the 1-5 record.
A: I donít like it either. I am disappointed that weíre 1-5 and weíre working to correct that. Iíve said this before, when we lose ball games, Iím disappointed for our players, our coaches, our fans, and also our administration and that includes John. I get it, I know the feeling, and those of us that have coached in this game long enough, weíve won enough games to know how that feels, and weíve lost games and gone through stretches where youíre trying to build something and you lose games and you know how that feels. Iíve mentioned it many times that there is an urgency in our gut to get it right and we are trying to do the things necessary to do that.

Q: John (Mara) also said that he hoped that (Odell Beckham Jr.) would play more and talk less.††
A: I have addressed the Odell stuff. Odell is a member of the New York Giants football team and weíre going to work with every player to become the best they can be, not only on the field but off the field. So when things happen, we talk behind the scenes and weíre trying to make everybody as good as they can be in really all areas of their life. Thatís the way it works.††

Q: Do you expect to have (Evan Engram) and (Rhett Ellison) practicing this week?††
A: Yeah, they actually practiced today, so we are hopeful theyíll be back and ready to roll on Monday.

Q: Perhaps for different reasons, (Eli Manning) and (Odell Beckham Jr.) are right now kind of in the crosshairs when assigning blame for the record. Is that deserved by the two of them in particular? How would you parse out blame?†
A: Thatís for people outside the building. None of us have played or coached well enough to be where we want to be, so we own that. Outside the building, itís always giving praise and assigning blame. Thatís the noise that happens outside the building. We correct each play specifically, each situation specifically, each event in a game specifically, with the idea that if a mistake is made, you correct it and move on. The goal is to not have it happen again. Thatís where it is.†

Q: Is there concern for any of the guys who didnít practice today Ė (Nate Solder), (Olivier Vernon), (Connor Barwin) Ė for when it comes to Monday?†
A: There is just some game wear and tear from last week. No, I donít have any concerns as of now.†
Liking him less and less as a coach  
Dinger : 10/16/2018 2:01 pm : link
His responses are useless and thats fine. Produce something, ANYTHING on the field that resembles an NFL ready team. I'm beginning to regret discounting his Browns tenure. Seems he has a knack for making a bad team not improve......
Schurmer  
micky : 10/16/2018 2:01 pm : link
Says a lot of "I get it" ...let's see
We always have good practices  
Jints in Carolina : 10/16/2018 2:05 pm : link
And then shit the bed on Sunday's.
couglin used to say the  
japanhead : 10/16/2018 2:08 pm : link
same shit about a great week of practice after a horrific embarrassing loss. nothing to see here.
What do you want him to say?  
Rick in Dallas : 10/16/2018 3:42 pm : link
That the roster is full of non NFL caliber players led by an aging eroding skills QB? I mean weíre 6 games into this guys Giants coaching career.

Truth is they are in a huge rebuilding process with major holes throughout the roster including QB. I think we all know that.
I think he's a great coach  
rasbutant : 10/16/2018 3:55 pm : link
Great person and gives an honest thoughtful interview.

What are people complaining about?  
Keith : 10/16/2018 3:59 pm : link
Every question is an attempt at "gotcha!". He should be and needs to be very careful with his responses. The guy is in a tough spot, he stepped into a pretty crappy situation.
RE: What are people complaining about?  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14131670 Keith said:
Quote:
Every question is an attempt at "gotcha!". He should be and needs to be very careful with his responses. The guy is in a tough spot, he stepped into a pretty crappy situation.


And what has he done to make it less crappy? Is he in the process of installing a culture of winning? Is he finding ways (scheme, game management) other than roster talent to manufacture a competitive team? Are the members of his coaching staff acquitting themselves well in their tasks? Are his special teams performing well? Is he scheming around our weaknesses and towards our strengths? Has he even been able to reach out to and mollify our highly paid dipshit of a wide receiver?

I can't see anything that Shurmur does well, and I can't believe we now have to abide excuses for his performance on top of the ocean of excuses and rationalizations that is the New York Giants.

The culture of the team has to stem from the head coach. We have a coordinator, not a head coach.
RE: RE: What are people complaining about?  
jcn56 : 10/16/2018 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14131717 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14131670 Keith said:


Quote:


Every question is an attempt at "gotcha!". He should be and needs to be very careful with his responses. The guy is in a tough spot, he stepped into a pretty crappy situation.



And what has he done to make it less crappy? Is he in the process of installing a culture of winning? Is he finding ways (scheme, game management) other than roster talent to manufacture a competitive team? Are the members of his coaching staff acquitting themselves well in their tasks? Are his special teams performing well? Is he scheming around our weaknesses and towards our strengths? Has he even been able to reach out to and mollify our highly paid dipshit of a wide receiver?

I can't see anything that Shurmur does well, and I can't believe we now have to abide excuses for his performance on top of the ocean of excuses and rationalizations that is the New York Giants.

The culture of the team has to stem from the head coach. We have a coordinator, not a head coach.


Agreed. The more I read and see of Shurmur, the more I get the 'career coordinator' feel from him, reinforcing the impression that he wasn't really anyone's first choice back when we hired him.
We have two players on offense who are elite at their position.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2018 4:47 pm : link
And this offense doesn't work. That has to be, at least on some level, partially the fault of coaching.
Ok, so who remembers 1983?  
JohnF : 10/16/2018 6:17 pm : link
If BBI was around then, would BBI be saying the same things about Bill Parcells? Bill got off to an awful start that year, much of it his own fault (starting Brunner instead of Simms, who wanted to be traded), and then nearly getting fired (George Young was already sniffing around for his replacement).

Or were you around when Bill Belichick took over the Browns in 1991 for his first job? Oh, in five years, Belichick had ONE winning season...and was fired after the 1995 season.

Likewise with Joe Gibbs. He lost his first five games in Washington. Skins fans wanted him tarred and feathered then, now he's worshiped in D.C.

Turn the page to 2018, and both Bill's are considered legends. But they weren't back then. They were getting slammed for the same things that are being posted about Shurmur now.

Is Shurmur going to be a good coach? Who knows? Coaches, even legendary ones, have to learn, and hopefully he's learning.

We're going to have to be patient, which is hell for a fan. But if fans are going to give up on people after 6 games, they get what they deserve. And it won't be a winning franchise.
This is Pat Shurmur's second job  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 6:25 pm : link
He failed in his first. Let's not pretend he's some fresh new face.
The culture point is a good one..  
Sean : 10/16/2018 6:34 pm : link
Patricia got pounded pretty good after week 1, but itís clear he is trying to change the culture there & aside from week 1 they have been competitive.

When Coughlin got here in 2004, you could clearly see the culture change. I see no attempt to change the culture with the prior 2 HC hires.
RE: The culture point is a good one..  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 6:37 pm : link
In comment 14131839 Sean said:
Quote:
Patricia got pounded pretty good after week 1, but itís clear he is trying to change the culture there & aside from week 1 they have been competitive.

When Coughlin got here in 2004, you could clearly see the culture change. I see no attempt to change the culture with the prior 2 HC hires.


If anyone is establishing any kind of culture with this team, it's probably Beckham.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 6:41 pm : link
It's hard to evaluate because of the massive roster deficiencies Reese left behind.

Literally entire drafts that yielded nothing. And then to compound issues, we had to spend wildly to plug holes and now we're a team that still has some serious talent deficiencies AND barely any cap space.

We still have a poor OL and a QB who appears to be at the end of the road and can't succeed behind this. Our DB depth is suspect.

There's a definite culture issue here. This team just seems to go into a quitting shell when things don't go well. They handle adversity terribly. I felt like the only way this season had any sort of chance was if we were able to win a couple of games right away.

After the Houston game, it seemed like maybe things could turn around. And the Saints game started off perfectly. But after that fake punt, we fell apart.

It's like as soon as one bad thing happens, this team can't handle it and it snowballs.
Shurms cannot be happy  
UESBLUE : 10/16/2018 6:43 pm : link
about his boss by passing him and speaking to the media directly about personnel.
RE: RE: The culture point is a good one..  
Brown Recluse : 10/16/2018 6:45 pm : link
In comment 14131843 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14131839 Sean said:


Quote:


Patricia got pounded pretty good after week 1, but itís clear he is trying to change the culture there & aside from week 1 they have been competitive.

When Coughlin got here in 2004, you could clearly see the culture change. I see no attempt to change the culture with the prior 2 HC hires.



If anyone is establishing any kind of culture with this team, it's probably Beckham.


I said this on another thread, but Beckham isnt even the best player on the team anymore. Thats Barkley now, and once Eli is gone he is probably the new face of the franchise. When you arent the best player on the team and arent the player making the biggest plays and you arent the player people see as the leader, your antics get old a lot quicker.
RE: .  
Sean : 10/16/2018 6:47 pm : link
In comment 14131847 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
It's hard to evaluate because of the massive roster deficiencies Reese left behind.

Literally entire drafts that yielded nothing. And then to compound issues, we had to spend wildly to plug holes and now we're a team that still has some serious talent deficiencies AND barely any cap space.

We still have a poor OL and a QB who appears to be at the end of the road and can't succeed behind this. Our DB depth is suspect.

There's a definite culture issue here. This team just seems to go into a quitting shell when things don't go well. They handle adversity terribly. I felt like the only way this season had any sort of chance was if we were able to win a couple of games right away.

After the Houston game, it seemed like maybe things could turn around. And the Saints game started off perfectly. But after that fake punt, we fell apart.

It's like as soon as one bad thing happens, this team can't handle it and it snowballs.


This is all well said, but there comes a point where you need to win games. The Giants are 1-5 with an expensive roster. The Jets are 3-3 with a rookie QB & a ton of unused money. We all need to stop blaming Reese.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14131858 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14131847 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


It's hard to evaluate because of the massive roster deficiencies Reese left behind.

Literally entire drafts that yielded nothing. And then to compound issues, we had to spend wildly to plug holes and now we're a team that still has some serious talent deficiencies AND barely any cap space.

We still have a poor OL and a QB who appears to be at the end of the road and can't succeed behind this. Our DB depth is suspect.

There's a definite culture issue here. This team just seems to go into a quitting shell when things don't go well. They handle adversity terribly. I felt like the only way this season had any sort of chance was if we were able to win a couple of games right away.

After the Houston game, it seemed like maybe things could turn around. And the Saints game started off perfectly. But after that fake punt, we fell apart.

It's like as soon as one bad thing happens, this team can't handle it and it snowballs.



This is all well said, but there comes a point where you need to win games. The Giants are 1-5 with an expensive roster. The Jets are 3-3 with a rookie QB & a ton of unused money. We all need to stop blaming Reese.


But the expensive roster is mostly because of Jerry Reese - and most of the talent deficiency is a result of several blown drafts.

I'm not saying Reese is the only guy to blame ,but he really set the Giants back badly and I think that point is pretty difficult to argue.

The Jets are 3-3 because they are getting better QB play than we are and because they have at least a mildly competent offensive line. The Jets defense is also slightly above average. It's not really even that hard to figure out why they're 3-3. They're an average-ish team playing average-ish football and their record is exactly... average.

We do need to win games at some point, but it's hard to envision this roster performing a whole lot better than this if we can't even throw the football past the sticks.

And crappy offense often perpetuates poor defense by creating poor FP situations and gassing them early in games.

I think we're just exercising futility trying to pinpoint a singular reason as to why the Giants are so bad. We got here for several reasons. Bad drafting, bad decision-making, bad coaching, bad performance, lacking talent...

To be this rotten and this bad, it needs to be more than one thing. And that's certainly the case here.
RE: Shurms cannot be happy  
Diver_Down : 10/16/2018 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14131851 UESBLUE said:
Quote:
about his boss by passing him and speaking to the media directly about personnel.


Or Shurmur can view John's response as an endorsement and unifying view that OBJ was out of line. Shurmur addressed the comments last week. OBJ is fined. OBJ issues a pseudo-apology to the team, but then retracts that apology.

Knowing that the owner is firmly in agreement with management and coaches, OBJ should take John's advice (create headlines via his play on the field and not is actions off). If not, it will only cost OBJ more fines and potentially lead to suspensions.
There are definitely many problems in need of many solutions  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 7:09 pm : link
6 games in I'm not encouraged that Shurmur will be a solution for anything. Whatever problems the roster has, he has not done a good job getting that roster to play. We're not getting beat simply because of a talent deficiency.
RE: There are definitely many problems in need of many solutions  
Diver_Down : 10/16/2018 7:13 pm : link
In comment 14131868 Go Terps said:
Quote:
6 games in I'm not encouraged that Shurmur will be a solution for anything. Whatever problems the roster has, he has not done a good job getting that roster to play. We're not getting beat simply because of a talent deficiency.


While Shurmur is the HC and the responsibility lies with him, Bettcher should be getting some of the media attention for how poor his side of the ball is playing.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 7:22 pm : link
I'd personally give Shurmur a shot with a different QB before running him out of town.

I'd agree there's not much to write home about thus far, but I'd prefer to not be a team that is firing and hiring new coaches every year. 4 head coaches in a 5 year span screams instability and chaos and that's where we'd be at if we can Shurmur and try to do this all over again for a 3rd consecutive year.

The Giants are awful - we all know it. So, I think a top 5 pick is pretty much a foregone conclusion. And if we have that, I'm about 99% sure we'll draft a QB.

I'd give this coach a year with that rookie and Gettleman another year to better reinforce the OL and see if things get any better from there.

I don't think firing and hiring every year is going to fix this either. We're going to need at least some semblance of patience because this thing is a huge, huge mess.
arc-  
Sean : 10/16/2018 7:36 pm : link
You made a thread asking whether itís best for the franchise to lose. Well, if the Giants are 3-13 Iíd be hard pressed to say Shurmur deserves another year. Iíd feel better about Shurmur if he starts getting some wins.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 7:48 pm : link
I posed that question with the insinuation that it'd be for the sake of landing our next QB, though - so, it's a double-edged sword.

I don't know if I'd feel any better going 6-10, and then being in a spot where we have to relinquish more assets just to move up and take the QB we want.

What happens if we fire Shurmur after one year, hire someone else, and have another bad season?

We're going to do this every year?

I don't think that's the answer.

Maybe this OL/QB combo is just not going to yield results regardless of the coach.

I'd give Gettleman one more offseason/draft and I'd let Shurmur work with a QB other than Eli before I pulled the plug because like I said - if we start firing coaches and GM's and have 3 sets in 3 years, I just don't see how that's going to work.

Any plan is going to require more than a 1 year turn, and if each regime has a different vision, it's just going to turn into even more of a massive clusterfuck.

I'm not sure we really have anything to lose at this point. We can afford another year. If we suck again, well... then we try it again I guess and at least the next regime has a good draft slot to work with.
Problem for me is I don't see any real plan in place  
moespree : 10/16/2018 7:52 pm : link
People say the Giants are rebuilding. But are they? Gettleman walked in the door talking up smash mouth football and a return to the old Giants way. Then a month later the franchise hires someone who runs an offense entirely different to that and was influenced by some of the coaches who influenced McAdoo. Odell Beckham gets a huge contract extension and now a 6 weeks later the owner is saying things about him in a public setting.

So what is the plan here for the franchise? Does the coach know? GM know? Does the owner even know?
RE: .  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14131884 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'd personally give Shurmur a shot with a different QB before running him out of town.

I'd agree there's not much to write home about thus far, but I'd prefer to not be a team that is firing and hiring new coaches every year. 4 head coaches in a 5 year span screams instability and chaos and that's where we'd be at if we can Shurmur and try to do this all over again for a 3rd consecutive year.

The Giants are awful - we all know it. So, I think a top 5 pick is pretty much a foregone conclusion. And if we have that, I'm about 99% sure we'll draft a QB.

I'd give this coach a year with that rookie and Gettleman another year to better reinforce the OL and see if things get any better from there.

I don't think firing and hiring every year is going to fix this either. We're going to need at least some semblance of patience because this thing is a huge, huge mess.


Instability and chaos is where we are. We've seen teams less talented than this Giants roster put together winning seasons. While the talent isn't great, I don't think it's even in the top 5 reasons why this team is what it is.

This can't be underscored enough...most weeks we are not fielding a competent NFL-level team. I don't see our players improving week to week. The one bright spot, Barkley, is succeeding because he is supremely talented...but elsewhere I don't see anything. Fundamental things like blitz pickups, tackling, and clock management can't be taken for granted with this team.

I have been a Giants fan for 32 years and I say this with total confidence: this is the worst I've ever seen it. I said after last year that I would have been perfectly happy with a new 53 man roster entering this season (as well as a completely new front office and coaching staff). When I said that I was told by a couple posters that I was throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There is no baby. This team is nothing but bath water. Except for Barkley (and for the sake of his career alone he'd be better off somewhere else) there is nothing on this team worth saving all the way up to the owner's offices.

Gettleman and Shurmur were not hired as part of an overall comprehensive plan. They were hired as a patchup job to save the last years of Eli Manning. They have failed. I think before this team can do anything they've got to go.

We are lost in the wilderness, and there is no leadership and no plan.
RE: RE: There are definitely many problems in need of many solutions  
bw in dc : 10/16/2018 8:05 pm : link
In comment 14131872 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14131868 Go Terps said:


Quote:


6 games in I'm not encouraged that Shurmur will be a solution for anything. Whatever problems the roster has, he has not done a good job getting that roster to play. We're not getting beat simply because of a talent deficiency.



While Shurmur is the HC and the responsibility lies with him, Bettcher should be getting some of the media attention for how poor his side of the ball is playing.


There are problems on both sides of the ball - certainly. But the defense/Bettcher has gotten a lot more with less than the putrid offense.

Coming into the season, the convention wisdom was the offense had the capabilities to be prolific with all of Manning's weapons. The thought about the D was let's hope some guys step up (like an Apple) and we get better over time...
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 8:18 pm : link
In comment 14131904 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14131884 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I'd personally give Shurmur a shot with a different QB before running him out of town.

I'd agree there's not much to write home about thus far, but I'd prefer to not be a team that is firing and hiring new coaches every year. 4 head coaches in a 5 year span screams instability and chaos and that's where we'd be at if we can Shurmur and try to do this all over again for a 3rd consecutive year.

The Giants are awful - we all know it. So, I think a top 5 pick is pretty much a foregone conclusion. And if we have that, I'm about 99% sure we'll draft a QB.

I'd give this coach a year with that rookie and Gettleman another year to better reinforce the OL and see if things get any better from there.

I don't think firing and hiring every year is going to fix this either. We're going to need at least some semblance of patience because this thing is a huge, huge mess.



Instability and chaos is where we are. We've seen teams less talented than this Giants roster put together winning seasons. While the talent isn't great, I don't think it's even in the top 5 reasons why this team is what it is.

This can't be underscored enough...most weeks we are not fielding a competent NFL-level team. I don't see our players improving week to week. The one bright spot, Barkley, is succeeding because he is supremely talented...but elsewhere I don't see anything. Fundamental things like blitz pickups, tackling, and clock management can't be taken for granted with this team.

I have been a Giants fan for 32 years and I say this with total confidence: this is the worst I've ever seen it. I said after last year that I would have been perfectly happy with a new 53 man roster entering this season (as well as a completely new front office and coaching staff). When I said that I was told by a couple posters that I was throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There is no baby. This team is nothing but bath water. Except for Barkley (and for the sake of his career alone he'd be better off somewhere else) there is nothing on this team worth saving all the way up to the owner's offices.

Gettleman and Shurmur were not hired as part of an overall comprehensive plan. They were hired as a patchup job to save the last years of Eli Manning. They have failed. I think before this team can do anything they've got to go.

We are lost in the wilderness, and there is no leadership and no plan.


But you're trusting John Mara to again select a new pair. What gives you any confidence that it'll be any better? How many times are we going to just keep firing GM's and coaches and what do we do if the next pair doesn't yield better results?

We're going to just keep firing coaches and GM's on a yearly basis until we see something change? It's going to be harder and harder to even find willing, qualified candidates if we start operating that way.

If the goal is to get AWAY from instability and chaos, going through 3 different GM/HC combos in 3 years is a certain way to almost ensure that does not happen.

It's sure as hell as bad as it's ever been for as long as I've been a fan too. But there's no such thing as a plan that could have possibly fixed this mess in less than half of a season.

It has been much, much more bad than good - but we hired Pat Shurmur for what he can bring offensively and if the key piece to his offense is a 37 year old QB on his last legs, it might not be reasonable to expect a whole lot more than this.

We can't keep forcing Eli on these coaches. Eventually, we've got to let someone try this with a potential heir apparent and someone OTHER than Geno fucking Smith.

As long as John Mara is calling the shots up top, I don't see much reason to believe this would get any better with another GM/HC change because I have no faith in him to pick a better pair.
I don't think Mara is a fool  
Go Terps : 10/16/2018 8:28 pm : link
I think he allowed his judgment to be clouded by sentimentality in the case of Eli, and possibly Beckham. I think he hired Gettleman and Shurmur under mistaken pretenses.

I am hoping that this season shocks him into a state where he can make decisions with clear eyes. I don't think it matters how many coaches and GMs we've had in recent years... It doesn't change what I think is the flawed condition under which they were hired: that this team was ready to compete for one more run with Eli.

Gettleman and Shurmur are half measures. They are not the revolution this organization needs.

The Giants needed an independent consultant to tell them how they were falling short in competing in today's NFL. Who did they hire as a consultant? Ernie Accorsi.

This organization is equipped to compete in 1988, not 2018.
Terps/arc-  
Sean : 10/16/2018 8:29 pm : link
What if Gettleman was hired with the plan in place to win with Eli? People say there is no plan, but maybe there was. Gettleman is well respected in the building, as is Kevin Abrams. So, whose to say Gettleman did come up with a comprehensive plan which was winning WITH Eli? Mara/DG then hire a QB minded coach.

This is my biggest concern, because if this is the case itís been a massive failure. I also think Mara had the intention of Gettleman turning things around quickly and then transitioning to Abrams.
No such thing as an independent hire in the NFL.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2018 8:32 pm : link
The entire league is built on a network of people who know each other and refer themselves to each other. And after getting burned on McAdoo, who is the closest thing to taking a risk on someone outside the building that this franchise has done since Jim Fassel (?), it was a given he was going to play it safe and go back to the circle of friends.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 8:39 pm : link
I honestly don't think John Mara knows a whole lot about what he should be looking for in the people he wants to run this team. I think he played it safe with Gettleman because it's what he knew and it was what was familiar to him. It's almost like he needs a friend he knows so he can say "hey, I don't know much about this stuff... I trust that you do"

He's a major reason why the Giants have fallen and keep falling. I'm not sure there's really any reason to have faith in him to choose the right people here. He sure hasn't done so recently.

And I think hoping that a season so bad will simply "shock" him into competence is the type of wishful thinking you'd criticize other people for. There's really no reason to believe that will happen based on what we know and what we've seen.

After how poorly the McAdoo experiment went, Mara turtled and went back to his safe space. I'd be surprised to see him leave it again anytime soon and even if he did, I'm not sure he'd have the slightest clue about what type of person he should be seeking out to turn this franchise around.

What's the worst thing that can happen if we give Gettleman one more offseason and give Pat Shurmur a rookie QB with actual promise and potential?

We suck again? We've been sucking for a long damn time now. I'm not sure it even makes that much of a difference.
arc-  
Sean : 10/16/2018 8:52 pm : link
No more ďone more offseasonĒ mentality. Since 2013 the mentality has been ďone more yearĒ. This is my biggest fear with the organization right now:

-NYG finishes with 3-4 wins.
-DG/Shurmur draft the next QB
-DG/Shurmur get a ďwin or elseĒ mandate in either 2019 or 2020.
-DG/Shurmur fired with a young QB already in place.

That above scenario is not far fetched. I want cohesion & I want the GM/HC/QB on the same schedule. If DG/PS were hired to win with Eli, I think itís fair to bring in new blood to move on from Eli with a fresh plan.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 9:02 pm : link
I mean, if we're not going to be willing to give any regime more than one year to prove itself, I just think that's a really poor way to operate.

Everyone wants a plan. But how can anyone establish a plan if you hire them into a disaster situation like this and tell them "win now or else you're fired" ?

How many guys with good resumes are going to feel like they even want this job if that's the way we run things?

I'll ask this question again...

Say we fire Gettleman and Shurmur after 1 season.

We hire a new pair, and we still struggle. We go like 4-12 next year.

What then? Fire those guys? Move to a 4th GM/HC combo in 4 seasons? When has that ever worked for anyone?

What if we had just fired Tom Coughlin after 2004 because it was still a losing season? We improved by 2 wins but finished 6-10. Our offense was in the bottom 3rd of the league.

I get it - Tom Coughlin had a better resume than Pat Shurmur when he was hired. But at some point we also have to try and let something develop here.

I don't see how anyone is ever going to be able to establish anything here if we just keep replacing GM's and Head Coaches every season. And I can't see why any coaching candidate would want to walk into that type of situation unless they were a young guy looking for his first crack at a coaching gig .Which, we just tried... and it failed.
Teams  
crick n NC : 10/16/2018 9:05 pm : link
That switch out coaches frequently seem to find themselves with more problems
Let's get a decent  
crick n NC : 10/16/2018 9:08 pm : link
Roster then revisit how the coaches are doing getting wins with a winnable roster
arc-  
Sean : 10/16/2018 9:13 pm : link
I agree with your post. I just want a commitment for these guys to either see it through or move on after this year if that wonít be the case. The organization desperately needs cohesion. I think we can all agree NYG will likely go QB in round 1 next April, it needs to be a joint decision & everyone needs to be on the same page.

Iíll give a positive - the 2018 draft looks to be a good influx of talent thus far. Can Gettleman acquire some more draft picks prior to 10/30? This is going to be a crucial offseason.
Bill Parcells was 3-12-1 his first year  
BlueHurricane : 10/16/2018 9:26 pm : link
You guys are insufferable.

Give the fucking guy a change.
*chance  
BlueHurricane : 10/16/2018 9:27 pm : link
.
RE: arc-  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2018 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14132018 Sean said:
Quote:
I agree with your post. I just want a commitment for these guys to either see it through or move on after this year if that wonít be the case. The organization desperately needs cohesion. I think we can all agree NYG will likely go QB in round 1 next April, it needs to be a joint decision & everyone needs to be on the same page.

Iíll give a positive - the 2018 draft looks to be a good influx of talent thus far. Can Gettleman acquire some more draft picks prior to 10/30? This is going to be a crucial offseason.


I agree - cohesion is key. So, I would give Gettleman a chance to draft a QB in April and let Shurmur have a shot at developing him and see if that points the needle in a better direction.

I wanted to see better than this in 2018 and am disappointed that we haven't.

Gettleman appears to have done a pretty solid job in his first draft here. Barkley looks like a home run. Hernandez looks like he'll be a starting caliber guard, Hill looks pretty good. If we get anything out of McIntosh it could be a nice bonus.

There's also Sam Beal who should hopefully help next year.

I just think if the major reason we hired Shurmur was for his QB prowess, it would make little sense to force a 37 year old Manning on him and then fire him because it didn't work out.

He should get a shot with a rookie QB. And not a developmental one like Webb or Lauletta. A guy we take top 5 - which is where we'll likely be picking next April.
...  
christian : 10/16/2018 9:43 pm : link
I don't think any of the binary opinions of the fans would succeed in the real world of business leadership.

There are a number of fans on this thread and BBI who year after year jump to zero sum conclusions and then beat every thread to death with them.

Two things can be true at once. Mara can be sentimental and have chosen the right leads. Gettleman can have thought Manning had more miles and positioned the team for future success.

Shurmur can have coached to win now and have focused on teaching for the future.

Hell, Beckham can be a selfish prick and future champion.

Good leadership let's smart people have the leash to fail and the room to grow. I think Shurmur, Gettleman and Mara totally screwed up keeping Manning. Doesn't mean every decision they made is bad. I think the UFA class this year sucks, and doesn't help, but doesn't preclude future moves.

If the Giants go into next year with Barkley, a top QB pick, another smart draft, re-do Vernon's deal, let Manning go, and add some pieces in the UFA, I'd wager they are heading towards contention.
RE: ...  
Sean : 10/16/2018 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14132055 christian said:
Quote:
I don't think any of the binary opinions of the fans would succeed in the real world of business leadership.

There are a number of fans on this thread and BBI who year after year jump to zero sum conclusions and then beat every thread to death with them.

Two things can be true at once. Mara can be sentimental and have chosen the right leads. Gettleman can have thought Manning had more miles and positioned the team for future success.

Shurmur can have coached to win now and have focused on teaching for the future.

Hell, Beckham can be a selfish prick and future champion.

Good leadership let's smart people have the leash to fail and the room to grow. I think Shurmur, Gettleman and Mara totally screwed up keeping Manning. Doesn't mean every decision they made is bad. I think the UFA class this year sucks, and doesn't help, but doesn't preclude future moves.

If the Giants go into next year with Barkley, a top QB pick, another smart draft, re-do Vernon's deal, let Manning go, and add some pieces in the UFA, I'd wager they are heading towards contention.


Well said.
There  
Jerry in DC : 10/16/2018 10:05 pm : link
Are risks with churning your management team. The flip side is that there are risks with keeping the wrong people in place for too long.

With gettleman, we're essentially handicapping ourselves because of his backwards, archaic approach to management. Look at the NBA - teams are putting millions of dollars into technology, analytics, data, and innovation. Football has more moving parts than basketball which provides a greater opportunity to apply those things. Nfl teams don't publicize their operations as much as nba teams, but I know for a fact that they're happening, and theyve been happening for a long time. With some pretty awesome stuff.

Gettleman mocks people who use computers. Thinks running and stopping the run are the most important things. It just makes it hard. We're choosing to give most of our competitors an advantage over us in decision making, player evalutation, player development, and many other areas.
Gettleman picking the future QB is kind of frightening.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/16/2018 10:10 pm : link
The same guy who said Jonathan Stewart is the same player now that he was in 2008. A guy who doesn't take analytics seriously. Eh.
...  
christian : 10/16/2018 10:12 pm : link
Jerry -- I don't know if I agree with your whole post. But I'm recently fascinated with the idea of running and stopping the run. Do the analysis support this as an predictor of success? We hear it as an anecdote, but is it true?
Passing  
Jerry in DC : 10/16/2018 10:20 pm : link
Is far more important than rushing - it has been known and proven for a while. There are many articles about it, but they're actually kind of tough to find on Google. I have linked one below.

This is a completely solved problem - there is no question about it anymore.
Link - ( New Window )
Another  
Jerry in DC : 10/16/2018 10:27 pm : link
One
Link - ( New Window )
My #1, #2 and #3 problem with Gettleman  
jcn56 : 10/16/2018 10:53 pm : link
and they're all the same - is that he's an insider.

We needed someone with a fresh perspective to fairly evaluate the people inside the building. Instead, we brought back a guy who was here a decade, and asked them to provide feedback on the operation and on the personnel inside the building.

Not surprisingly, there was very little turnover with the exception of Reese and Ross.

So when people say 'well, it was a good draft up top but the FAs were disappointing' - and you remember that we spent a boatload of money on FAs that accomplished nothing, and we were drafting 2nd overall - it reminds you that the Giants have been operating in that manner for some time now. Money spent on FAs not hitting home (save for some of the '16 defensive additions) and the drafts being top-heavy and not much else further down.

Which is what you'd expect - with a FO that literally only changed 2-3 faces.

I'd feel more comfortable with someone else, even if they were a bigger risk. I also think Gettleman would do better elsewhere, free from legacy relationships and beliefs that might cloud his ability to analyze the situation.

Hope I'm wrong, because he's not going anywhere.
RE: .  
Rong5611 : 10/17/2018 7:15 am : link
This is the core problem. Reese drafted poorly, most of the guys are not on the roster.

We had a playoff team in 2016, Eli had a record year. OBJ was a superstar. We spent alot on the defense, which performed well that season. We needed to overpay for Solder and Omameh to get the OL to its current state, which is horrible. As some of the expensive defense is still on the roster, out of necessity, our cap is crushed. We don't have any less expensive players that were developed from those years other than Odell and Collins. There is no depth.

Additionally, yes we could have Darnold now. Do you really think he would be as good as he is behind our line? I don't think so.

It's a mess. We are Cleveland 2.0. Certainly need to give Shurmur and DG more than one season to fix this steaming pile of...



In comment 14131847 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
It's hard to evaluate because of the massive roster deficiencies Reese left behind.

Literally entire drafts that yielded nothing. And then to compound issues, we had to spend wildly to plug holes and now we're a team that still has some serious talent deficiencies AND barely any cap space.

We still have a poor OL and a QB who appears to be at the end of the road and can't succeed behind this. Our DB depth is suspect.

There's a definite culture issue here. This team just seems to go into a quitting shell when things don't go well. They handle adversity terribly. I felt like the only way this season had any sort of chance was if we were able to win a couple of games right away.

After the Houston game, it seemed like maybe things could turn around. And the Saints game started off perfectly. But after that fake punt, we fell apart.

It's like as soon as one bad thing happens, this team can't handle it and it snowballs.
RE: Another  
christian : 10/17/2018 7:52 am : link
In comment 14132102 Jerry in DC said:
Quote:
One Link - ( New Window )


Awesome. Thanks Jerry!
team has been in every game except two  
bc4life : 10/17/2018 8:05 am : link
team has played a tough schedule, all playoff teams (incl world champs) and one division rival.

they lost one game by a 65 yard field goal.

there is a thin line between winning and losing in this league.

team's biggest issue is the OLine - which Gettlemen aggressively addressed in the off season - still a work in progress.

look at the facts, and stop treating the outcomes of a third parties as personal tragedies.
I wasn't a fan of bringing Shurmur here...  
Chris684 : 10/17/2018 9:03 am : link
The plan I wanted was to hire Wilks.

Once Shurmur was the choice, I thought it made a lot of sense to stick with Eli. Hell, this is a guy who coached Case Keenum to a title game. Obviously this wasn't the right call in hindsight.

The funny thing is, I've grown to like Shurmur's personality, I like the way he handles the media. Unfortunately I don't like what I've seen so far as a head coach on the field.

He messed up the decision of Beckham on the punt return in week 1. Had a couple of really bad 4th down decisions against Dallas. Poor clock management against the Saints. Finally, I feel overall he has not committed to the run with Barkley nearly enough.

It's hard to digest where we are right now, and I'm not sure I know how I feel what's best for the organization long term, but I do know I'll be disappointed if Lauletta is not starting games within the next month. That is the next thing that needs to happen and it needs to happen sooner than later.
RE: RE: What are people complaining about?  
Keith : 10/17/2018 9:19 am : link
In comment 14131717 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14131670 Keith said:


Quote:


Every question is an attempt at "gotcha!". He should be and needs to be very careful with his responses. The guy is in a tough spot, he stepped into a pretty crappy situation.



And what has he done to make it less crappy? Is he in the process of installing a culture of winning? Is he finding ways (scheme, game management) other than roster talent to manufacture a competitive team? Are the members of his coaching staff acquitting themselves well in their tasks? Are his special teams performing well? Is he scheming around our weaknesses and towards our strengths? Has he even been able to reach out to and mollify our highly paid dipshit of a wide receiver?

I can't see anything that Shurmur does well, and I can't believe we now have to abide excuses for his performance on top of the ocean of excuses and rationalizations that is the New York Giants.

The culture of the team has to stem from the head coach. We have a coordinator, not a head coach.


I understand the concerns and I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong. I just think he needs to be given a fair chance. 6 games into THIS situation is not a fair chance.

First off, half of our roster is new. We've had more turnover than any team in the NFL. Secondly, he came into a situation where Eli was forced on him. We have high expectations with all of our weapons, yet we don't have a QB that can get them the ball. Then, we start the season without our only pass rusher and we have nobody that can get close enough to the QB to smell the cologne he's wearing. Lastly, I think the top end talent on this defense is a bunch of quitters. As soon as adversity hits, they fold.

I'm not excusing the HC. He's done some things that don't make sense to me. Like, why don't we run the ball all of the time? His clock management has been pathetic.

THere are lots of issues, but it's unfair to write the HC off considering this specific situation.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2018 9:45 am : link
Gettleman and Shurmur may well wind up being the wrong guys for this. But I don't think we benefit by cutting the cord before either have even had a fair shake.

Every single one of us has to AT LEAST agree that both guys walked into a pretty big mess. There were talent issues, there were coaching issues, there were culture issues. No one could have truly expected a complete turnaround within 6 games.

Think we should be better than this? Fair. But again - whoever we hire to come in here, we are going to need to give them at least a little more than under half a season before we start talking about axing them , otherwise we're just going to want to do the same thing 5-6 games into every season and we're never going to settle on anyone.

I just don't think you can run an NFL franchise that way where you're firing and hiring every single year. It makes the destination less and less desirable for one, and beyond that - it's just not conducive to any sort of winning strategy.

If we want to stop being a completely chaotic organization in flux, we have to let things settle somewhere and let someone actually take control of this.

Lastly, the point I've made several times already, is that if you're not happy with the guys Mara picked this time, what makes you think you'd be happy with the next one(s)? And if they don't pan out either, then what? We just do this every year?

I wasn't crazy about Gettleman. It felt too safe and inside the box. But his draft picks at least look like an improvement over what we were getting in most Reese drafts. Jonathan Stewart was a terrible signing, but it's a backup RB.. there are worse problems to get up in arms about.

For better or worse, I think we need to give these guys a shot with a new QB and another offseason to hopefully improve the roster and trim more fat.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2018 9:47 am : link
And I have zero regret whatsoever over choosing Shurmur over Steve Wilks.

If there are any franchises that are actually performing WORSE than the Giants right now and look like even more of a doormat - his team is one of them and Buffalo is the other.

The Cardinals offense is even worse than ours is. And they did draft a QB and have a couple of good players there. David Johnson isn't a scrub. And Christian Kirk is playing well. But they're not moving the ball and they're not scoring points. They look terrible.
Poor QB play, from one who  
RollBlue : 10/17/2018 10:02 am : link
counts $22.2 MILLION DOLLARS against the cap is the biggest problem with the roster. Reese seemed to be inclined to start the transition from Eli last year and got fired for it.

Biggest mistake incoming brain trust made was thinking Eli still had "it" and they were good at the QB position foe a few more years.

I love Eli, but even I knew he was toast last December.

He played great in 2015 - that line was probably worse than the current one. He's missing plays that HAVE to be made when you're getting $22.2 Million.
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