I'm on the fence. He's a two time Superbowl winning QB and two time Superbowl MVP. He holds most if not all the Giants QB records. The argument in my mind would be he's been playing on a bad team for a long time and his play has been poor to average regardless of the team around him. Right or wrong people tend to forget what you did and remember what your doing now it's just human nature.
I think ELI has been a great Giant and great teammate. I'm not posting this to bash him just curious what you guys think on the subject.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
Is the HOF a team accomplishment?
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Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
Is the HOF a team accomplishment?
Not too worry. It’s TylerAimee being TylerAimee
it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.
it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.
Brees and Peyton are there too. I think they should be in the same era as Eli.
1. INTs
2. W/L%
Lets throw number 2 out for a second since thats team accomplishment, not an individual one. So lets look at INTs - Eli's biggest flaw as a QB.
Eli has thrown more INTs than his peers from his time period. That cannot be questioned - but is that the single reason why he SHOULDNT be in the HOF? I mean he has a lot of wins. He has a lot of yards and TDs. He has the postseason accolades. He has been NFL man of the year finalist twice, winner once.
People are contradicting themselves a lot in this thread. People argue he is a compiler of yards and TDs. Well then isnt he a compiler of INTs and losses as well? People are pointing out win/loss percentage.... well if winning is the ultimate goal - isnt being the best player in the biggest game trump regular season?
Troy Aikman never once led the NFL in any statistical category. He was never an all-pro. He threw for 20 Tds ONCE in his career. And there is no doubt he was a first ballot HOF.
Yeah I agree with you. Pointing out where Eli ranks on INT list is not a good thing for him.
His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers.
To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era.
Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.
His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers.
To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era.
Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.
The thing with Eli is even though he was part of the transition to the pass happy league, he was one of the last to really join in. From 2005-2010 the Giants mantra was run the ball and use playaction. Starting in the 2011, and even then it wasnt full blown air-a-thon did we see a switch. From 2012 on to end his career was the time where his stats took off to another level.
I see guys like ryan, Stafford, Wilson, Luck, Cam, and all the young buck as the true beneficiaries of the new NFL. Hell, even guys like Rivers/Ben came from teams who ran a shit ton their early years.
But at the end of the day, here is something that should stand out. When Eli is up for HOF... lets assume guys like Rodgers, Ryan, and Stafford pass him on soem all-time list...
He is still going to be..
Top 10 all time yards
Top 10 all time in TDs
Top 10 all time in wins
2x SB champion
2x SB MVP
Man of the Year.
I am not sure if he is a first/second time ballot guy. But he is going to get in. Whether its his first year eligible or 20th year. People will forget the shit show the Giants became and just look at broader stats and accomplishments.
If he doesnt get in and guys like...
Stafford, Rivers, Ryan, Cam, and lets say Luck for now get in based on a MVP here or some fancy stats there..... that would be a shame IMO.
Played on a great team. Had great physical skills. But his numbers are putrid. At least guys like Dawson, Griese, Namath played in eras where the physicality made passing very difficult.
Find one great season Aikman had. Just one.
Good luck.
The interesting case is Rivers. if he continues to have career seasons for another three or four years and wins a sb i think he gets in otherwise no.
Ben gets in due to a 10 pt qb rating better than Eli making him more of a sure shot.
guys like wilson and wentz stand a much better chance as they can add to sb rings and still put up great stats but neither are close to locks too early to tell.
But I think he's going to have a tough time getting in given who the voters are.
I don't think most appreciate how good he was at his peak - I think the 2011 season is under-appreciated by non-NYG fans.
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
Ben
Eli
Rivers
Wilson
Some may not be first time guys and may have to wait a few years. But all these guys have been very good for many years (despite what some fans on their own team say.)
I mean Dan Fouts is in the HOF (and he came from a very pass happy offense even for todays standards). His playoff stats are a joke. His W/L percentage is not good either. He led the league in some stats - but again he was leading an offense different than any others. He was first team all pro twice.... one of which was a 9 game season.
Why does he deserve to be in the HOF? Cause if we went with the mantra by some here - his stats were padded as well.
I agree and thats why I think Eli will get in because he has things that other QB dont have in today's game.
2 SBs
2 SB MVPs
Their weight is going to be a huge push for him to get into the HOF. Some people get in with stats, some get in with huge years, some even get in with awards.
It's like a college resume. A lot of people have good grades. It's the extracurricular activities that count (Championships and Superbowl MVP's).
He has weighed all of the things brought up in this thread, and still boils it down to being down a TD, twice, in the Superbowl and leading his team to victory.
but it does not mean his flaws won’t be weighed or should be absolved. They will factor.
but it does not mean his flaws won’t be weighed or should be absolved. They will factor.
Agree. I think his negative aspects take him out of first ballot into the 2nd and 3rd ballot.
Eli has thrown more INTs than his peers from his time period. That cannot be questioned - but is that the single reason why he SHOULDNT be in the HOF? I mean he has a lot of wins. He has a lot of yards and TDs. He has the postseason accolades. He has been NFL man of the year finalist twice, winner once.
People are contradicting themselves a lot in this thread. People argue he is a compiler of yards and TDs. Well then isnt he a compiler of INTs and losses as well? People are pointing out win/loss percentage.... well if winning is the ultimate goal - isnt being the best player in the biggest game trump regular season?
NFL Man of the Year. Really? You threw that in as a criteria? That's what we are stooping to to make a case for Eli.
Just brilliant.
NFL Man of the Year. Really? You threw that in as a criteria? That's what we are stooping to to make a case for Eli.
Just brilliant.
If you dont think that matters, even just a little bit, then you really are just a troll at this point. People have been kept OUT of the Hall for not being a model person for years. You think terrell Owens first two years omission had nothing to do with his personality?
Character matters. And I believe it was the LAST thing I put down. But seeing broad picture has never been your forte.
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Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
Is the HOF a team accomplishment?
Team is the reason why a lot of guys get into the HOF. Emmit Smith credits Moose for paving the way for him as an example. Just one example.
My point of my comment to the earlier post was why are we looking at interceptions? Hey, we also know that Eli had that really bad year with INTs and for about half of them, they bounced off of receiver's hands. Not his fault.
The HOF is about a player's entire body of work. Everything considered and not just cherry picked stats.
1. INTs
2. W/L%
I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot.
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in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity...
1. INTs
2. W/L%
I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot.
You wouldn't consider INTs at all? That seems like an awfully convenient position to take if you plan on supporting Eli's HOF candidacy, I suppose.
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In comment 14133802 dep026 said:
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in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity...
1. INTs
2. W/L%
I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot.
You wouldn't consider INTs at all? That seems like an awfully convenient position to take if you plan on supporting Eli's HOF candidacy, I suppose.
No.. I wouldn't. There are so many factors that go into INTs. Is the team playing from behind all of the time? Forced to throw 40 times per game? Some of those older QBs barely threw the ball so having a lot of INTs was actually much worse.
What other stat do we need to look at? 3rd down efficiency?
How about how often a guy got hurt and was unable to play? Shouldn't we give Eli credit for his durability?
Analysis paralysis...
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
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which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
You sure about that?
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In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said:
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which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
You sure about that?
100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?
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In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said:
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which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
You sure about that?
100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?
No, not really. I'm sure you have some goalpost moving, stat twisting card you're salivating to play, and desperately want me to post something.
Career INT and Fumble numbers all-time are readily available and easily accessible.
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
You sure about that?
100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?
During his time, he certainly was the most turnover prone no matter how you slice his career. From 2004-now, #1 in picks and fumbles...which you would expect given how few qbs played over that time. However, even if you divide his career in his half he is still #1 in picks and fumbles from 04-11 and #1 in picks and #2 in fumbles from 12-current. He's a had a great career, but he has some big flaws and his turnovers will be part of his story come HoF eligibility time.
Should be noted that the stats below list fumbles and not fumbles lost. That requires research that I don't have time to do right now
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14134263 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said:
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which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.
There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.
You sure about that?
100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?
No, not really. I'm sure you have some goalpost moving, stat twisting card you're salivating to play, and desperately want me to post something.
Career INT and Fumble numbers all-time are readily available and easily accessible.
During Eli's career. So, since 2004. That's a fair context isn't it? From the time that Eli entered the NFL, no QB has turned the ball over as often as he has. Is that me twisting a stat or moving the goalposts?
How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often?
This cannot be dismissed easily in his consideration. He was extremely turnover prone for the era in which he played.
There used to be a weekly thread comparing Eli to Simms. I thought that thread was nuts due to comparing qbs separated 25 years apart. The game is different, particulalry since they added all the rules hampering the dbs. I assumed Gatorade Dunk meant over Eli's career as that is apples to apples. Even mediocre qbs today look like beasts when compared to qbs of the 80s and 90s.
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any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient.
How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often?
If he threw the ball less... then yes. I cannot help but think that if we had ANY running game at all over the past 6 years that Eli would have far fewer turnovers.
still going back on my earlier position which is that I do not think INTs to me are a serious consideration for whether someone gets into the HOF. Winning percentage is more important for a QB.
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In comment 14134304 Britt in VA said:
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any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient.
How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often?
If he threw the ball less... then yes. I cannot help but think that if we had ANY running game at all over the past 6 years that Eli would have far fewer turnovers.
Eli led the league in INTs in 2007 with the 4th ranked rushing attack and again in 2010 with the 6th ranked rushing attack. So while you could probably make a case that a better rushing attack during the past few years may have mitigated some of Eli's INTs, I don't think you can dismiss his turnover rate on the basis of supporting cast. At some point, you have to acknowledge that Eli is the common denominator.
I understand your point
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Favre#NFL_career_statistics
He led the league in so many different categories across multiple years.
Same with Brees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Brees#NFL_career_statistics
Same with Marino:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino#NFL_career_statistics
Eli has led in NO categories across a 15 year career (other than INTs):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning#NFL_career_statistics
How can that not be in the HOF?
Eli’s aggregate compilation has been discussed an nauseum - in 15 years he will be surpassed by many qbs in fact and he had pedestrian yards per attempt the true measure.
His case is defined by big moments and his record in road playoff games. No shame in that.
He was very good from 08-12 and in 14,15 if not great and he was great in 2011. But that is not what gets him in.