If Eli goes out playing like this is he a hall of famer?

At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice.

Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though.

unless he wins a SB and or multiple MVPs..

is going to be a huge mark against them. I think he has a solid shot to get in, but he's going to be a borderline case and there's going to be a lot of debate about it.

I'll say that for sure.

question. If this is his last yr and we go something like 4-12 Id say no.

Last two seasons definitely killed that dream IMO. Should have retired 3 seasons ago if you ask me.

Embarassing performances. He was a marginal HOF candidate 2 years ago. I think that ship has sailed.

Supporters will point to the passing accomplishments that are some of the best of all time, the two championships and Superbowl MVPs, the 4th quarter comebacks, and the iconic plays like the helmet catch and say he is a sure fire Hof player.

The detractors will point to the longevity and change to a passing league to explain the stats, point to the interceptions and inconsistent play, and say he was a good QB who needed a top defense to win. They will also say if his name was Eli Smith, nobody would be talking about him as a HoF player.

It's hard to say because the HoF isn't really the best of the best, it's more of a hall of the very good. Given that bar he should get in.

In comment 14131660 Mike from Ohio said:

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It's hard to say because the HoF isn't really the best of the best, it's more of a hall of the very good. Given that bar he should get in.

I agree that he should get in based on where the bar has been set, but I just don't think he will. People love to hate him, especially in the media.

6th all-time in passing yards, 7th all-time in passing touchdowns, and two Super Bowls (both as the MVP). Plus he's an iron man in New York.

The knock will be career win/loss record and career interceptions (15th all-time - though Favre is a HOFer and is 1st all-time, Marino 8th and Peyton 9th).

Still, he's in.

In comment 14131657 joe48 said:

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Embarassing performances. He was a marginal HOF candidate 2 years ago. I think that ship has sailed.

Was the Carolina game a embarrassing performance? How about the Houston game? And if he goes for 325 and 3TD's vs ATL then what?? Amazing how fans can not see past the end of their collective noses. Has he been perfect no ...but good lord some of you act as if the guy has not completed a pass all season ...

In comment 14131638 FStubbs said:

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At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice. Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though.

Did you just really compare Eli to Trent Dilfer?

but as a Giants fan you would even entartain that?

Will get him in

Outside of 3-4 years he has been a distinctly average to below average QB. His longevity, perfect NY demeanor and Superbowl MVP's certainly help him in NY but outside....he kinda gets the shrug of the shoulder

Eli has been an above average regular season quarterback for most of his career

For two post seasons he was All Time Hall of Fame

Overall, not enough

So you have to wait and see his final numbers. If he starts 3 more years, either here or somewhere else, his career numbers willl get him in

If he retired today, I think it would 50/50 if he would get in

Is 19/13 and 3500 yards.

He’s getting in. Maybe not first ballot.

has very little to do with eli and how he plays now and everything to do with what the voters value.

For voters that value sustained excellence, he will not get their vote. For voters who give huge credit to QBs for super bowls and generally value an individual's contribution to team championships, he will get their vote.

He has big aggregate numbers, but his case is really built on his contributions to 2 titles. IMO there are enough voters that place a high value on that fin particular for QBs that he will get in.

of the eligible QBs who have won more than one Super Bowl, the only QB not in Canton is Jim Plunkett.

Here are the ones who made it in with only one SB, not counting Len Dawson or Johnny Unitas.

Joe Namath
Kurt Warner
Brett Favre
Joe Theismann
Ken Stabler

I think a fair amount of how Eli will be perceived when he becomes HOF-eligible will depend on how well his replacement does between now and then. But that aside, I think Eli has a pretty solid case.

because of the super bowl runs. he’s got an awesome road record had defeated multiple 13-3 and better teams including a 15-1 and 16-0 team.

His aggregate passing stats are paired with amongst the most attempts in nfl history so he should be ranked highly here.

He is outright poor in MVP voting in any season let alone actual mvp relative to most hall candidates. His typical qb rating is middle pack.

quite frankly if Phil Simms is not in, Eli should not be. Eli had more overall playoff magic but i thought Simms was a top 10 qb more seasons under worse circumstances as a passer and was a damn good player in 84-93. Then again phil Simms in my mind should get in eventually and I would say same for Eli.

In comment 14131685 joeinpa said:

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Eli has been an above average regular season quarterback for most of his career For two post seasons he was All Time Hall of Fame Overall, not enough

So we're going to ignore the fact that he was the most clutch QB in the 4th quarter for a bulk of that time? Man short memories in this place...

Some careers are about the long term, and others are about moments. Eli's is about a couple enormous moments. As a Giants fan those moments are way more valuable to me than MVPs, passing titles, and the like. That's all I care about. I just wish for his sake the front office and ownership hadn't been so misguided these last few years.

the hall is full of silly overrated so who knows?

Warren Moon, Curtis Martin come to mind. so does Dan Hampton.

meanwhile tiki barber who was far more explosive than Martin does not. and guys like lc greenwood stay out.

My Giant fan life started with Charlie Conerly, and includes Y.A. Tittle, Fran Tarkenton, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, as well as Eli Manning.

I must say, some people's view of Manning's qualities is WAY overdone. He was good when he was good, I'm very happy about the two SBs, but his falws including poor judgement leading to interceptions and fair-poor red zone performance have been obvious from the beginning of his time in NY.

Is he hall of fame caliber? I doubt it.

Eli -IMO has never been a HOF QB , he is to inconsistent and needs talent around him to make things work. He doesn’t make everyone around him better as Elite QB’s do. Just my opinion but even with the two SB -MVP’s he’s always been questionable in my eyes. He should of moved on with Coughlin.

Though I’am in the camp that wanted and I’am glad we got Barkley as we can now get a QB we want to pair with a great young duo of RB &WR. We’ll fix the line next year and have a new QB.

Good times ahead

....

I think he doesn’t get in (I of course hope he does).

the voters aren't going to punish him because he held on too long, most players tend to hold on too long.

the HoF voting is based on what have you done for me lately? You know all players have to wait 5 years after retiring first right? He is top 10 in every passing category and in those categories, surrounded by HoFers or soon to be HoFers. He has 2 SB MVPs and only 4 other players in history can say that. Three are HoFers already, the 4th is Tom Brady. Not too mention he's a damn poster boy for the NFL even getting a 'Man of the Year' award.

He's not a first ballot HoFer. Not even close (depends on his competition at the time too) but HE WILL GET IN.

I can't believe people think he won't get in because he didn't end on a high note. At this point, he would have to kill someone in a hit and run due to a DUI to not get in the HoF.

Lets face it, he had a nice career but he is no HOF.

Let’s see what the landscape is like in 5 years. People don’t remember washed athletes years after they retire, they remember their peaks. There’s been enough “Eli is a HOFer” noise among athletes and media types that gives me hope he gets in.

Eli has not won a single playoff game. He has never been on the All-Pro team. So, no he is not a Hof'er in my opinion. I really don't care though, he brought us 2 championships

I believe there are only 12 qb's who have won multiple Super Bowls including Eli. There are only 4 who are not in Hall: Brady and Eli who are still playing, another is Peyton who is not yet eligible. Brady and Peyton are locks. Guess who the identity of the fourth?

In comment 14131638 FStubbs said:

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At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice. Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though.

Rivers?! AHAHAHAAHHAHAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

I never thought Eli is or was a great quarterback. You watch the great ones(Ben,Rogers,Brady,Brees)and IMO, Eli is not in the same league as those guys. He might still get in but I never thought he was extraordinary. Very good, at times, yes,but never great.

In comment 14131794 k-five said:

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Eli has not won a single playoff game.

That’s like saying, “outside of that giant soda I just guzzled and all the cake and cookies I ate today, I’ve ate really healthy today!!”

In comment 14131795 HomerJones45 said:

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I believe there are only 12 qb's who have won multiple Super Bowls including Eli. There are only 4 who are not in Hall: Brady and Eli who are still playing, another is Peyton who is not yet eligible. Brady and Peyton are locks. Guess who the identity of the fourth?

Spot on Gene. He’s a lock. I’m just not sure of WHEN after he retires

The perception of him post last super bowl

Hes up there in few categories in passing etc..consecutive games played was screwed up or that would still be in tac.

Positives very few two time mvp sb championships and the fashion that he got them and vs the team..ne...could get him enough votes

If I were him, and knowing saying this competitive players feel they can go on forever, I'd walk away before making it worse. Can he win another? Possibly..but it'd take a perfect scenario and conditions to happen..but at 38?

even have a decent sized bet with a Pats fan that he gets in.

but I admit, I am concerned these last few years will negatively affect how he is viewed for HOF purposes.

and I REALLY HOPE he does. The more Giants in the better and the truth is that he does not get enough credit for the quality person that he is.

Why I think he probably will not get in is because he will rely on people voting and it is NOT going to be just people from NY. I believe there is a negative vibe about Eli by those reporters and others who will be voting. They see the collapses on the nationally televised games and unfortunately are going to put too much weight on the second half of his career.

In comment 14131677 slickwilly said:

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but as a Giants fan you would even entartain that?

As a Giants fan, no.

Problem is this is the perception of Eli.

In comment 14131673 slickwilly said:

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In comment 14131638 FStubbs said: Quote: At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice. Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though. Did you just really compare Eli to Trent Dilfer?

Yeah. Seriously Eli is seen about on that level by non-Giants fans. Remember people seriously thought Sanchez was better at one point. Eli has a huge PR problem and PR is a big part of what gets you into the Hall of Fame. Just ask players like Joe Namath and Jerome Bettis.

Was he a dominating figure at his position during his career? Nope.

Even when he was elite, he was never viewed that way by outsiders. He will be in the giants ring of honor, that’s all that matters.....to me anyway.

In comment 14131795 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

I believe there are only 12 qb's who have won multiple Super Bowls including Eli. There are only 4 who are not in Hall: Brady and Eli who are still playing, another is Peyton who is not yet eligible. Brady and Peyton are locks. Guess who the identity of the fourth?

Plunkett

.

but he won’t make the HOF, IMO.

That has the potential to put him in hall of fame contention, along with the Super Bowls. Although his play over the course of his career may not merit HOF, his second longest consecutive start streak in the history of the game is certainly a stat that could make him deserving, along with the 4th Q comebacks and 2 Super Bowls.

He's part of football royalty - the Mannings.

He beat Brady/Belichick twice.

He will get the benefit of the anti-Pats vote from the writers.

Should he get in? No. But the HoF has lowered their standard over the decades to allow good players in. Si being great - over some sustained portion of time - is no longer the threshold.

...joke? Hell no.

leaving a league where several QB's as a matter of routine can throw for over 4000 yards.

The challenge for him will be that if he doesn't make it in right away, there's going to be an ever-growing volume of other QBs that will be difficult for the selection committee to not put in the HOF before Eli.

Eli will not get into the Hall of Fame with his record as a QB.

The rest are all in or are going in. 2 time SB MVP is a lock.

he would probably make it. Being the Giant QB, less likely....

He is a HOF'er.

do.

18-1.
Manning to Tyree
Manning to Manningham
2 time SB MVP
Iron Man Streak (never missed a start DUE TO INJURY)

Manning family name. Back to back brothers being SB MVP's, Peyton in '06 and Eli in '07. That will NEVER happen again.

And 14,15,16 wasn’t terrible from a stat POV even if it was under whelming in terms of wins losses.

Eli might not have been a great great great qb if you want to dissect his game but he most definitely had a great career. Tons of numbers and two Super Bowls? And in both runs he played tremendous? That’s a hof career. Dissect kill and analyze it— no doubt Eli has had a weird career... up and down. But it’s in there.

But he gets in.

regardless of his two Super Bowls here’s his numbers:
Ref 72-72-0
Cmp%52.5
Yds25882
Y/A7.0
TD164
Int198

Eli dwarfs him statistically. Eli’s only major knock IMO will be his career record, unless he miraculously starts winning games. Anyway, Eli’s resume for a 2 time Super Champ and MVP most definitely puts him in the conversation. I don’t believe he’s a first ballot HoFer, but I think he gets in a few ballots later.

Only GREAT players are suppose to get into the Hall Of Fame.

Eli is not a great player. Very good, not great.

In comment 14131795 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

I believe there are only 12 qb's who have won multiple Super Bowls including Eli. There are only 4 who are not in Hall: Brady and Eli who are still playing, another is Peyton who is not yet eligible. Brady and Peyton are locks. Guess who the identity of the fourth?

Roethlisberger?

..

In comment 14131638 FStubbs said:

Quote:

At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice. Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though.

It's pretty silly actually to think that he will get into the HOF with a losing record in his last few years. The HOF is going to look at how the player was remembered. If the player retired on a long term downslide then his overall performance better have overcome that downslide dramatically. Brett Favre for example. Can that be said about Eli? Uh, no. Outside of NY he's not even a consideration. Just being honest. Eli is the best Giants quarterback to play the game and had remarkable success early on. Then he fell off a cliff. The HOF voters aren't going to look at his offensive line woes, just his performance. He doesn't get in.

Not initially, but he will get in IMO.

he will not be a first ballot. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger and Rivers, will be retiring around the same time and be eligible about the same time, will get in before Eli. I'm basing that on the perception that Eli's peers, fans outside NY, sports writers, sports journalists and media analysts have of him. The problem for Eli is he is playing concurrently with Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Rodgers and will be unfavorably compared to them.

then this whole debate is a bit silly.

Namath's career stats are complete trash. A .500 record as a starter in 13 seasons. In only two (!) of those seasons did he throw more TDs than INTs. Three career post-season games. And even before his knees got jacked up, he had a level of mobility that makes Eli look like Michael Fucking Vick.

Namath has a bust in Canton because of one thing. He won Super Bowl III. Except not just that - he also predicted his team would win Super Bowl III. Except he didn't really - as he was apparently so shit-faced that he could barely string a sentence together. Some enterprising reporter who heard him speak at the Miami Touchdown Club took some creative liberties with his remarks, and in the 50 years since, Namath has been more than happy to perpetuate the narrative.

But the point is, Namath owns a yellow blazer because of a story embedded in the mythos of NFL history. And I'm fine with that. But by any rational standard, Eli is a better QB than Namath ever was.
Link - ( New Window )

Namath looks like a joke.

But if you ask my dad and his brother, both born in the 40s, they tell you Namath had an arm that was just out of this world. He made throws that were out extraordinary. And he played in the era where the physicality all the way around, especially receivers vs dbacks, was the complete opposite to how the game was played. In other words, it was difficult to be an efficient passer...

It will all boil down to whether voters choose to remember most the 2 SB MVPs or the last couple of years.

Yes

In comment 14132051 JCin332 said:

Quote:

..

Meant to say one of only 5 players with 2 SB MVP's and the other 4 are in...

then why not?

Namath did nothing in that Super Bowl. Snell scored the only Jets TD and defense had 4 interceptions.

Eli beat the best ever that day. I'd say the helmet catch is better or just as equal to Namath's prediction.

Namath had more swagger.

went out playing like this.

He'll get in...

across different era's, especially in football. You just need to compare Eli to his peers in his era. At his peek, I'd say he was top 5 in the NFL at his position. A lot of people outside of the NYG fanbase wouldn't agree with that though. I feel like every ranking we've ever seen has had him around 10 at his peek.

Yes, he's had two magical runs and he's been a vital piece of those runs, but what do people outside of NY say? The defense carried him. He made a few lucky throws. He should have been picked off.

I feel like I've been fighting in defense of Eli for the majority of his career trying to convince people that he was elite. I'm sure we all have. Hopefully that's now how he's viewed when it's time for the votes.

In comment 14132355 Jimmy Googs said:

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went out playing like this. He'll get in...

Agreed.

several on here will need to go on suicide-watch...

In comment 14132373 Jimmy Googs said:

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several on here will need to go on suicide-watch...

Do not agree. haha

Manning Royalty

Game streak

Two time Super Bowl MVP, no losses

Beat Brady/Bill B twice, including an undefeated season

Will end top five in yards thrown, TD's.

NFL Man of The Year

He's going in. Not first ballot, but he's going in. If he is traded or ends up anywhere, like the Jags, and makes the playoffs next year, it's a lock

They will have a legitimacy problem if they just let every durable stat accumulator in.

It will be easier to keep the Romos and Rivers of the world out if they don't let Eli in. And if they let Eli in then lots of fans bases will be whining about their QB, because he/she will have better stats then Eli....

And Eli might not care as much as others about being the highest profile guy not in the HOF. HOF could look at all the others and "Eli's got stats, 2 SB MVPs and he's famous, but he's not HOF famous and neither are you..."

In comment 14131796 BigBlue4You09 said:

Quote:

In comment 14131638 FStubbs said: Quote: At this rate he'll finish with a losing record, and outside of New York, he's seen as a Trent Dilfer borderline bust who got lucky twice. Rivers and Roethlisberger will get in, though. Rivers?! AHAHAHAAHHAHAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

He got lucky twice?

He was the best and toughest player on the field those two playoff seasons that led to championships.

Lucky. Jesus.

He said outside of NY, that's the perception. Is he wrong?

"Trent Dilfer borderline bust"?

Yes, he is wrong.

Mouthbreathers don't get a vote.

In comment 14132379 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14132373 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: several on here will need to go on suicide-watch... Do not agree. haha

you would be the first one to take sharp knives away from...

but he's not wrong about the lucky twice comment. Weve all had to defend Eli throughout his career. We hear that all the time. Even guys on TV that rank QB's say the same thing. He's never been given the respect he deserved throughout his career.

Eli has the hardware and the stats. He checks all the boxes. But those don't apply here, why?

I don't think you can find a contemporary that is NOT in that is comparable to Eli.

In comment 14132507 Keith said:

Quote:

but he's not wrong about the lucky twice comment. Weve all had to defend Eli throughout his career. We hear that all the time. Even guys on TV that rank QB's say the same thing. He's never been given the respect he deserved throughout his career.

Anybody that wants to revisit the "lucky" narrative can go back and watch both playoff runs, and look at the stats.

I think if they watched again, they wouldn't think he was so lucky.

In comment 14132196 bw in dc said:

Quote:

Namath looks like a joke. But if you ask my dad and his brother, both born in the 40s, they tell you Namath had an arm that was just out of this world. He made throws that were out extraordinary. And he played in the era where the physicality all the way around, especially receivers vs dbacks, was the complete opposite to how the game was played. In other words, it was difficult to be an efficient passer...

I can vouch for what your Dad and your uncle saw. He and Sonny Jurgenson had two of the best arms I’ve ever seen. Jeff George et al were mediocre so I don’t reference them.

Namath’s game was the intermediate to long pass. That translates into more INTs and awful completion percentages, so those who NEVER saw him play and cite stats as proof that Namath doesn’t belong are flat out wrong. I only pay heed to those who actually lived through his era

He/they beat the #1 and #2 seed NFC opponents, and the #1 AFC seed twice.

He beat Favre in ice cold temps in Green Bay.
He beat the league MVP Brady, 18-0 as one of the biggest underdogs in SB history.
He beat league MVP Aaron Rodgers, 15-1, on the road in Green Bay.
He dropped back to pass 56 times in a monsoon against a ferocious San Fran defense who sacked him what? 6 times? 8 times?

In 2007, they were 11-0 on the road? Won every game on the road in the playoffs?

Not to mention the two signature plays in both Superbowls, which both came on the final drive for the offense where they HAD to score a TD in the final two minutes.

In comment 14132514 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14132507 Keith said: Quote: but he's not wrong about the lucky twice comment. Weve all had to defend Eli throughout his career. We hear that all the time. Even guys on TV that rank QB's say the same thing. He's never been given the respect he deserved throughout his career. Anybody that wants to revisit the "lucky" narrative can go back and watch both playoff runs, and look at the stats. I think if they watched again, they wouldn't think he was so lucky.

You defend the guy like he's your first born. Have you not had to defend Eli from that perception a million times? That's the perception outside of this fanbase, for the most part. I don't think many on here would agree that he was lucky.

Dallas 13-3
Green Bay 14-3
New England 18-0

Green Bay 15-1
San Fran 14-3
New England 15-3

All of those games on the road.

I think he's a Hall of Famer.

Agree with others, not on the first ballot. Maybe not for a few years. I could see voters "making him pay" by waiting a while over things as petty as the refusal to play in San Diego, and even a "resentment vote" against the Manning family. (Yes, I believe strongly that that crap occurs.)

But I think he will eventually receive the invite. And God willing, I'll be there for his induction, I hope alongside my son.

In comment 14132528 Keith said:

Quote:

In comment 14132514 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14132507 Keith said: Quote: but he's not wrong about the lucky twice comment. Weve all had to defend Eli throughout his career. We hear that all the time. Even guys on TV that rank QB's say the same thing. He's never been given the respect he deserved throughout his career. Anybody that wants to revisit the "lucky" narrative can go back and watch both playoff runs, and look at the stats. I think if they watched again, they wouldn't think he was so lucky. You defend the guy like he's your first born. Have you not had to defend Eli from that perception a million times? That's the perception outside of this fanbase, for the most part. I don't think many on here would agree that he was lucky.

Who cares how I defend him, or why? Is what I'm saying true or not?

People that vote for the HOF have to review/acknowledge those things.

It doesn't matter what Jo Schmo in Sacramento thinks?

I believe he does get in. He has two SB. There are some QB in with just one SB win. No matter what he has never bad mouth a teammate or coach. Always a professional no matter how bad it is. There is not one QB in this league that can get the ball from center and take one step back and you have a defensive player in your face on your second step back and believe you are going to be successful. There are some erratic throws but I would say the man is harassed 75% of his time in the pocket. The RB is dodging to get positive yards. I may get hammered but 07 and 11 he had a line. Since 12 he has been in survivor mode back there.

In comment 14131709 dep026 said:

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Is 19/13 and 3500 yards. He’s getting in. Maybe not first ballot.

“Statistical season” you said? How about the grand statistics of merely 4-game over .500 over 15 years, and that he was considered as top 5 among his own peers in at most two of those 15 years.

Yet, the only doubt in your mind about his HoF staus was “he may not be first ballot.” First ballot my ass.

In comment 14132506 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14132379 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14132373 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: several on here will need to go on suicide-watch... Do not agree. haha you would be the first one to take sharp knives away from...

actually you probably slip to #2...

In comment 14132556 LAXin said:

Quote:

In comment 14131709 dep026 said: Quote: Is 19/13 and 3500 yards. He’s getting in. Maybe not first ballot. “Statistical season” you said? How about the grand statistics of merely 4-game over .500 over 15 years, and that he was considered as top 5 among his own peers in at most two of those 15 years. Yet, the only doubt in your mind about his HoF staus was “he may not be first ballot.” First ballot my ass.

HOF is an individual accomplishment. Team record has no bearing. Even if team record should be oncluded..... a team winning 2 SBs is better than having a .750 winning percentage and no SBs right?

In comment 14132542 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14132528 Keith said: Quote: In comment 14132514 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14132507 Keith said: Quote: but he's not wrong about the lucky twice comment. Weve all had to defend Eli throughout his career. We hear that all the time. Even guys on TV that rank QB's say the same thing. He's never been given the respect he deserved throughout his career. Anybody that wants to revisit the "lucky" narrative can go back and watch both playoff runs, and look at the stats. I think if they watched again, they wouldn't think he was so lucky. You defend the guy like he's your first born. Have you not had to defend Eli from that perception a million times? That's the perception outside of this fanbase, for the most part. I don't think many on here would agree that he was lucky. Who cares how I defend him, or why? Is what I'm saying true or not? People that vote for the HOF have to review/acknowledge those things. It doesn't matter what Jo Schmo in Sacramento thinks?

Who decides who gets into the HOF? Forget Joe Schmo, lets just look at how the media perceives him. In Eli's peak, I can remember a number of media members ranking QB's and Eli was never given respect. Every year a new flavor of the month was ranked as a better QB than Eli. He was always in the 8-10 range. That's how he has been perceived by the media and people outside NY. Even 1/3 of the people in NY never gave him the respect he deserved. It's reality buddy.

#2 all time consecutive games started streak
#6 all time passing yards
#7 all time in touchdowns
2 x Superbowl MVP

Find any Quarterback with that resume that's not in. Just one.

why he's a HOF'er? I think he is a HOF'er.

.

However nobody else did. He was laughed at by the media and fanbases. The perception of Eli Manning is that he's not and never was an elite QB, IMO. The perception is wrong, but perception is reality and I believe that is why he won't make it.

today by Gary Myers, who I know most people on here hate, but I think the piece is fair and spot-on.

Not sure if anyone has shared any of this, if so, my apologies for the duplication.

I think it's behind a pay wall, but I'll link it anyway and share some snippets/highlights..

Quote:

...Let’s just say Eli Manning has had a strange and unique career. In the two years he won the Super Bowl, he played as well in the playoffs as any quarterback has ever played. He survived the frigid conditions in Green Bay to outplay Brett Favre in the 2007 NFC title game. He survived a terrible beating by the 49ers defense to knock them off on the road in the 2011 NFC title game. Each victory came in overtime. The anti-Eli argument: In the 12 other seasons of Manning’s career, not counting the one in progress, he has not won a single playoff game. He’s 8-0 in the Super Bowl seasons, but 0-4 otherwise. He has missed the playoffs six times. He has not been to the playoffs since 2011. His overall regular season record is an uninspiring 112-108. Manning is not nearly as good as his older brother. He is not Tom Brady. He’s not as good as Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. But Brady is the only one of that group to win more Super Bowls than Eli, who has won as many as his brother and one more than Brees and Rodgers. He has always thrown way too much interceptions, too often makes mistakes associated with players early in their career and although his career yards and touchdowns all easily place him in the top 10, he’s never been considered an elite quarterback. But he’s been durable and reliable. He started 210 consecutive games, the second longest streak for a quarterback in NFL history, until he was benched for one game in 2017. He has never missed a game because of injury. How will all that play out in the Hall of Fame meeting room held the day before the Super Bowl?.....

Quote:

...He was never the best quarterback in the NFL at any time. But with Peyton Manning and Brady dominating the league during Eli’s career, that was never going to happen....

the conclusion...

Quote:

....There are no recently retired quarterbacks on the ballot in the next few years who figure to get in other than Peyton Manning. Tony Romo had some great seasons, but never even made it to a conference championship game. Steve McNair is not a Hall of Famer. Neither is Donovan McNabb. Manning was running a close race with his draft classmate Ben Roethlisberger until recently. Big Ben is finishing up stronger. It will be to Manning’s benefit to retire before Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Roethlisberger and get in before they are eligible. Should Eli get in? All I can say is with the Super Bowl on the line twice, he came up big against great Patriots teams. And isn’t that how quarterbacks should be judged?

Link - ( New Window )

Exactly.

That last sentence sums up that he thinks he should be in.

Link - ( New Window )

The question mark suggests that he knows that isn't always the case. He's clearly on the fence based on that, but he states that he shoudl retire earlier than the others to improve his chances.

If you read that as Gary stating his case, that last question stands to sum up his view.

After listing all the positives and negatives, that's the conclusion he comes to.

Also, no mention of luck.

Quote:

In the two years he won the Super Bowl, he played as well in the playoffs as any quarterback has ever played. He survived the frigid conditions in Green Bay to outplay Brett Favre in the 2007 NFC title game. He survived a terrible beating by the 49ers defense to knock them off on the road in the 2011 NFC title game. Each victory came in overtime.

Again, no mention of luck.

from one of the HOF voters
Link - ( New Window )

but you can see this from the article:



Five years after he retires, Eli Manning will be eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Slam dunk? Hardly.

How is it trending? Based on my experience as one of the 48 voters, it’s going to take persuasive arguments for Manning to make it on the first ballot and perhaps any subsequent year.

No chance? Only the anti-Eli faction would feel that way.

This election is too close to call, but I plan to vote for Manning the first time he’s on the ballot and keep voting for him every year until he gets in.

His brother Peyton is such a sure thing when he’s a first-time eligible for the Class of 2021 that the voter from Indianapolis responsible for making the presentation to the rest of the room might just stand up and say, “Peyton Manning” and sit down without even discussing his credentials.

That’s what happened with Jerry Rice and Brett Favre. Nothing needed to be said.

It won’t be that easy for Eli. It figures...

1. Myers isn't outside NY.
2. I don't think he meant that every single person outside NY feel that way. Some def do, are you debating that?

Lets just agree to disagree. Any discussion with you about Eli goes nowhere and gets twisted like a pretzel.

but I didn't see this quote from the article:

Quote:

This election is too close to call, but I plan to vote for Manning the first time he's on the ballot, and keep voting for him every year until he gets in. -Gary Meyers

Just kidding, it was literally posted 5 posts in front of yours and is being discussed :)

he's never been one of the best 5 QBs in the league. Never led the league in ANY relevant, positive QB stat. However, he has led the league in interceptions. And of course he's never been an MVP.

In reality, he's had 8 great weeks. Those 8 weeks during the two SB runs.

If I was a voter I would find it very hard to reward someone a great individual honor based on 8 weeks over 15 years.

In comment 14132674 bw in dc said:

Quote:

he's never been one of the best 5 QBs in the league. Never led the league in ANY relevant, positive QB stat. However, he has led the league in interceptions. And of course he's never been an MVP.

Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat...

But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones.

that's unfair, IMO. His longevity has to be worth something. The fact that he never missed a game does offset that a bit.

In comment 14132679 dep026 said:

Quote:

Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat... But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones.

What's not factual? Eli is an accumulator.

I don't think he was better as his position than Tiki was at RB.

In comment 14132028 Knineteen said:

Quote:

Only GREAT players are suppose to get into the Hall Of Fame. Eli is not a great player. Very good, not great.

Great careers get you into the HOF. Eli has had a great career. You’re just too close to see it right now.

In comment 14132692 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14132679 dep026 said: Quote: Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat... But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones. What's not factual? Eli is an accumulator. I don't think he was better as his position than Tiki was at RB.

Isnt anyone who starts an acummalator? In order to get get stats, you need to play.

is that he's accumulated all time stats because of his longevity, not his yearly performance. However, I disagree. that should be a positive, not a negative.

He threw for 65 TDs and nearly 8500 yards. Those are really some god damn good numbers.

I dont really see this year and last year as accumulating since there hasnt been much to accumulate.

He is in mine and always will be. He was never that popular with others. The end of his career is not helping him, that's for sure. Losing career W/L record, if it happens, I see that as the largest obstacle. I wish he would retire. He is getting punished physically and the media is only going to get more brutal. I do not see any chance for this to turn around before it matters.

In comment 14132028 Knineteen said:

Quote:

Only GREAT players are suppose to get into the Hall Of Fame. Eli is not a great player. Very good, not great.

Some of you need to examine things for what they are not what you think.

We aren’t examining whether Eli was great or good or bad. Body of work people. And comparing that body of work to others IN Canton.

When someone says “fuck no” you’ve lost all credibility because it’s obvious you’re not looking at everything. You’re just frustrated with the last few years.

Eli’s career stacks up with the all time greats. He’s getting in.

stats is so easy, why have only 7 or 8 QB's in NFL history accumulated more stats than Eli?

agree with Keith, it's a positive, not a negative, for Eli to have accumulated so many yards and TD passes.

If that's all he'd done, I can see a case being made that for whatever reason he was mediocre yet his team kept running him out there every Sunday.

But the fact he has two rings and two SB MVP's sort of counters that claim.

In the end I think Eli gets in, but it will take some time.

but compare them to his peers.

2015 was Eli's best year statistically. He was:

19th in completion %
6th in yards
Tied for 2nd with 4 other guys in TD's
7th most INT's
13th in QBR

In comment 14132719 Keith said:

Quote:

but compare them to his peers. 2015 was Eli's best year statistically. He was: 19th in completion % 6th in yards Tied for 2nd with 4 other guys in TD's 7th most INT's 13th in QBR

I forget the exact numbers but I read somewhere that between 2014-2016 Eli was top 5 in yards and TDs during that time period.

Quote:

In Manning's 15 seasons... bw in dc : 11:32 am : link : reply he's never been one of the best 5 QBs in the league. Never led the league in ANY relevant, positive QB stat.

Just trying to take aim before the goalposts move.

2010:

5th in passing yards
4th in TD's
1st in deep passes with 92 completed (throwing in the deep pass stat because I found it a hot topic lately)

2011:

4th in passing yards
6th in passing TD's
1st (tied with Tom Brady) for deep passes with 99 completed.

2015:

6th in passing yards
2nd in TD's
3rd (tied with Andrew Luck and Jay Cutler) for deep passes with 87 completed.

I think those are meaningful QB numbers in a single season.

in which he also broke the 4th quarter TD record with 14, and tied the most comebacks in a single season with 7.

with the benefit of hindsight, Eli had a legitimate argument for league MVP in 2011.

Of course, Aaron Rodgers 45 TD's and 15-1 record locked that up for him at the time, but didn't do him much good in the first playoff game against the Giants.

In comment 14132350 SirLoinOfBeef said:

Quote:

then why not? Namath did nothing in that Super Bowl. Snell scored the only Jets TD and defense had 4 interceptions. Eli beat the best ever that day. I'd say the helmet catch is better or just as equal to Namath's prediction. Namath had more swagger.

Namath basically called the plays in that super bowl. He was the biggest reason why the jets won that game.

Namath was a terrific elite player for about 7 years. He did enough.

Eli did enough over the first ten years or so. He then padded over the next 6-7.

when we are talking about playing at the same time as Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees.

And it wasnt until about 6-7 seasons into Eli's career where he became part of the passign frenzy in the NFL. The early part of his career was run, playaction.

In comment 14132637 Keith said:

Quote:

The question mark suggests that he knows that isn't always the case. He's clearly on the fence based on that, but he states that he shoudl retire earlier than the others to improve his chances.

He pretty much said he should get in with some minor caveats. And those caveats will merely delay his induction.

In comment 14132718 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

stats is so easy, why have only 7 or 8 QB's in NFL history accumulated more stats than Eli?

Why??? Well, we should have little doubt that by 2033, when Eli should still be on the HoF ballot looking to get in, he will have been pushed out of the top 15 on the all-time list in these passing statistics. Any doubt to that?

That answers your why, and let me ask another "why". Why are you guys double-booking Eli's achievements: praising his iron-man streak, and then praising his total passing yard separately, and then praising his total completions separately, and then praising his total TDs separately? You do understand you are blatantly double-booking, even triple-booking, don't you?

The one standard of excellence which has NOT evolved, which has NOT been cheapened (a lot), which can NOT be double-booked with longevity, is wins, or winning percentage. A 4000-yard, 30-TD season in 2018 is not nearly impressive as it was in 1988, but a 12-wins/4-losses season is still every bit great in 2018 as it was in 1988. So how is Eli doing in this all-important statistic? A grand total of 4 games over .500, in his 15th year. YIKES!!!!

Dep026 stated above that HoF is an individual achievement. Okay, let's look at it from that perspective. 95% of supporting evidence to Eli's HoF claim came in 8 weeks of his 15-year career. 8 weeks out of 15 years, think about that. But even in just those 8 playoff weeks, the Giants would not have won either Super Bowl if Eli's defense were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Any disagreement to that?

Looking deeper, in Eli's two Super Bowl wins, his defenses gave up 14 points and (net) 15 points, respectively. The last team which gave up less and still failed to the win the game goes all the way back to 1973, the dead-ball era.

Tell me again about team achievement vs. individual achievement, dep.

In comment 14132807 LAXin said:

Quote:

In comment 14132718 pjcas18 said: Quote: stats is so easy, why have only 7 or 8 QB's in NFL history accumulated more stats than Eli? Why??? Well, we should have little doubt that by 2033, when Eli should still be on the HoF ballot looking to get in, he will have been pushed out of the top 15 on the all-time list in these passing statistics. Any doubt to that? That answers your why, and let me ask another "why". Why are you guys double-booking Eli's achievements: praising his iron-man streak, and then praising his total passing yard separately, and then praising his total completions separately, and then praising his total TDs separately? You do understand you are blatantly double-booking, even triple-booking, don't you? The one standard of excellence which has NOT evolved, which has NOT been cheapened (a lot), which can NOT be double-booked with longevity, is wins, or winning percentage. A 4000-yard, 30-TD season in 2018 is not nearly impressive as it was in 1988, but a 12-wins/4-losses season is still every bit great in 2018 as it was in 1988. So how is Eli doing in this all-important statistic? A grand total of 4 games over .500, in his 15th year. YIKES!!!! Dep026 stated above that HoF is an individual achievement. Okay, let's look at it from that perspective. 95% of supporting evidence to Eli's HoF claim came in 8 weeks of his 15-year career. 8 weeks out of 15 years, think about that. But even in just those 8 playoff weeks, the Giants would not have won either Super Bowl if Eli's defense were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Any disagreement to that? Looking deeper, in Eli's two Super Bowl wins, his defenses gave up 14 points and (net) 15 points, respectively. The last team which gave up less and still failed to the win the game goes all the way back to 1973, the dead-ball era. Tell me again about team achievement vs. individual achievement, dep.

Firstly, Eli has all the requisite stats, or will. They’ve all been enumerated on here and elsewhere. As to looking deeper or injecting elements of LUCK, how about this as one of countless examples of “Luck.” If the Eagles in 2010, do not stage a miracle coneback victory over us, down 31-10 with half a qtr to play, the Packers DO NOT make the playoffs and Aaron Rodgers is STILL waiting for his only SB trophy. Is that “luck,” is that looking deeper?

EVERY SB entrant/winner has luck. Luck with injuries, fortuitous calls, you name it.

Eli, Brady, Bradshaw, Starr(?) are one of the few or only QBs in SB history to win TWO OR MORE SB MVPS. That is huge, especially given the ELITE talent he had to face just to get there.

He’s a lock. Immortally.

We were the hands down best team in 2008 until Plax shot himself.

Between Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Smith, OBJ Eli sure has sent a lot of WRs to the pro bowl.

he is

In comment 14132716 djm said:

Quote:

Some of you need to examine things for what they are not what you think. We aren’t examining whether Eli was great or good or bad. Body of work people. And comparing that body of work to others IN Canton. When someone says “fuck no” you’ve lost all credibility because it’s obvious you’re not looking at everything. You’re just frustrated with the last few years. Eli’s career stacks up with the all time greats. He’s getting in.

So, if I were to say Eli only won a playoff game in 2 of his 15 years, does that count as his body of work?

Or how about in his 15 year career, he led the league in INTs 3 times and never once led the league in Yards, TDs, Completions, Comp. Pct or QBR? 15 years, not a single time!

How can you call someone a GREAT QB when they don't lead the league once in any meaningful category?

He has an actual vote, AND is pretty anti-Giants most of the time.

See those + signs? Those are HOF'ers.

In comment 14133737 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

See those + signs? Those are HOF'ers.

Hey I have an idea... lets ignore longevity in the league and also schemes when some of these guys played.

Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group.

I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.

In comment 14133764 EricJ said:

Quote:

Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group. I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.

Is the HOF a team accomplishment?

In comment 14133779 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14133764 EricJ said: Quote: Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group. I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt. Is the HOF a team accomplishment?

Not too worry. It’s TylerAimee being TylerAimee

Britt shows a chart of int leaders and Eli is the only contemporary on the list. throwing picks was far more commonplace in the old nfl.

it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.

In comment 14133785 hassan said:

Quote:

Britt shows a chart of int leaders and Eli is the only contemporary on the list. throwing picks was far more commonplace in the old nfl. it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.

Brees and Peyton are there too. I think they should be in the same era as Eli.

brees is also on the list but it can be argued this is a knock against him as well.

my basic point is this chart shows little. how did your int pct rank vs your peers is a better indicator.

in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity...

1. INTs
2. W/L%

Lets throw number 2 out for a second since thats team accomplishment, not an individual one. So lets look at INTs - Eli's biggest flaw as a QB.

Eli has thrown more INTs than his peers from his time period. That cannot be questioned - but is that the single reason why he SHOULDNT be in the HOF? I mean he has a lot of wins. He has a lot of yards and TDs. He has the postseason accolades. He has been NFL man of the year finalist twice, winner once.

People are contradicting themselves a lot in this thread. People argue he is a compiler of yards and TDs. Well then isnt he a compiler of INTs and losses as well? People are pointing out win/loss percentage.... well if winning is the ultimate goal - isnt being the best player in the biggest game trump regular season?

Troy Aikman never once led the NFL in any statistical category. He was never an all-pro. He threw for 20 Tds ONCE in his career. And there is no doubt he was a first ballot HOF.

In comment 14133793 hassan said:

Quote:

my basic point is this chart shows little. how did your int pct rank vs your peers is a better indicator.

Yeah I agree with you. Pointing out where Eli ranks on INT list is not a good thing for him.

I would mostly agree. His int is an issue. To me the lack of mvp votes is an issue as well. His td pct relative to his peers and his ypa all factor into his qb rating which is pedestrian.

His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers.

To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era.

Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.

In comment 14133814 hassan said:

Quote:

I would mostly agree. His int is an issue. To me the lack of mvp votes is an issue as well. His td pct relative to his peers and his ypa all factor into his qb rating which is pedestrian. His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers. To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era. Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.

The thing with Eli is even though he was part of the transition to the pass happy league, he was one of the last to really join in. From 2005-2010 the Giants mantra was run the ball and use playaction. Starting in the 2011, and even then it wasnt full blown air-a-thon did we see a switch. From 2012 on to end his career was the time where his stats took off to another level.

I see guys like ryan, Stafford, Wilson, Luck, Cam, and all the young buck as the true beneficiaries of the new NFL. Hell, even guys like Rivers/Ben came from teams who ran a shit ton their early years.

But at the end of the day, here is something that should stand out. When Eli is up for HOF... lets assume guys like Rodgers, Ryan, and Stafford pass him on soem all-time list...

He is still going to be..

Top 10 all time yards
Top 10 all time in TDs
Top 10 all time in wins
2x SB champion
2x SB MVP
Man of the Year.

I am not sure if he is a first/second time ballot guy. But he is going to get in. Whether its his first year eligible or 20th year. People will forget the shit show the Giants became and just look at broader stats and accomplishments.

If he doesnt get in and guys like...

Stafford, Rivers, Ryan, Cam, and lets say Luck for now get in based on a MVP here or some fancy stats there..... that would be a shame IMO.

and it’s absolutely absurd that he’s in the HoF.

Played on a great team. Had great physical skills. But his numbers are putrid. At least guys like Dawson, Griese, Namath played in eras where the physicality made passing very difficult.

Find one great season Aikman had. Just one.

Good luck.

should not get in in my opinion based on current trajectory. Ryan needed to win sb so did Cam and they failed. They don’t look to be set up to be on another sb team.

The interesting case is Rivers. if he continues to have career seasons for another three or four years and wins a sb i think he gets in otherwise no.

Ben gets in due to a 10 pt qb rating better than Eli making him more of a sure shot.

guys like wilson and wentz stand a much better chance as they can add to sb rings and still put up great stats but neither are close to locks too early to tell.

aikman was a victim of being on teams on cruise control and a dominant run squad. so his numbers suffered. but i agree he is very overrated.

I'd vote for Eli if I had a vote.

But I think he's going to have a tough time getting in given who the voters are.

I don't think most appreciate how good he was at his peak - I think the 2011 season is under-appreciated by non-NYG fans.

Peyton
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
Ben
Eli
Rivers
Wilson

Some may not be first time guys and may have to wait a few years. But all these guys have been very good for many years (despite what some fans on their own team say.)

I mean Dan Fouts is in the HOF (and he came from a very pass happy offense even for todays standards). His playoff stats are a joke. His W/L percentage is not good either. He led the league in some stats - but again he was leading an offense different than any others. He was first team all pro twice.... one of which was a 9 game season.

Why does he deserve to be in the HOF? Cause if we went with the mantra by some here - his stats were padded as well.

because of he had a few seasons of stats outliers relative to his peers. it’s really not a good way to get in. problem is the hall has terrible inconsistencies. Moon is in for same reason.

In comment 14133859 hassan said:

Quote:

because of he had a few seasons of stats outliers relative to his peers. it’s really not a good way to get in. problem is the hall has terrible inconsistencies. Moon is in for same reason.

I agree and thats why I think Eli will get in because he has things that other QB dont have in today's game.

2 SBs
2 SB MVPs

Their weight is going to be a huge push for him to get into the HOF. Some people get in with stats, some get in with huge years, some even get in with awards.

Hardware is what sets guys apart in this era. That's going to be what separates the wheat from the chaff.

It's like a college resume. A lot of people have good grades. It's the extracurricular activities that count (Championships and Superbowl MVP's).

and he flat out said that as a voter, he would vote for him in his first year of eligibility, and every subsequent year until he gets in.

He has weighed all of the things brought up in this thread, and still boils it down to being down a TD, twice, in the Superbowl and leading his team to victory.

the 2 mvp and sb wins gets him in. his road warrior wins in playoffs are tremendous.

but it does not mean his flaws won’t be weighed or should be absolved. They will factor.

In comment 14133927 hassan said:

Quote:

the 2 mvp and sb wins gets him in. his road warrior wins in playoffs are tremendous. but it does not mean his flaws won’t be weighed or should be absolved. They will factor.

Agree. I think his negative aspects take him out of first ballot into the 2nd and 3rd ballot.

In comment 14133802 dep026 said:

Quote:

Eli has thrown more INTs than his peers from his time period. That cannot be questioned - but is that the single reason why he SHOULDNT be in the HOF? I mean he has a lot of wins. He has a lot of yards and TDs. He has the postseason accolades. He has been NFL man of the year finalist twice, winner once. People are contradicting themselves a lot in this thread. People argue he is a compiler of yards and TDs. Well then isnt he a compiler of INTs and losses as well? People are pointing out win/loss percentage.... well if winning is the ultimate goal - isnt being the best player in the biggest game trump regular season?

NFL Man of the Year. Really? You threw that in as a criteria? That's what we are stooping to to make a case for Eli.

Just brilliant.

In comment 14134135 bw in dc said:

Quote:

NFL Man of the Year. Really? You threw that in as a criteria? That's what we are stooping to to make a case for Eli. Just brilliant.

If you dont think that matters, even just a little bit, then you really are just a troll at this point. People have been kept OUT of the Hall for not being a model person for years. You think terrell Owens first two years omission had nothing to do with his personality?

Character matters. And I believe it was the LAST thing I put down. But seeing broad picture has never been your forte.

In comment 14133779 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14133764 EricJ said: Quote: Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group. I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt. Is the HOF a team accomplishment?

Team is the reason why a lot of guys get into the HOF. Emmit Smith credits Moose for paving the way for him as an example. Just one example.

My point of my comment to the earlier post was why are we looking at interceptions? Hey, we also know that Eli had that really bad year with INTs and for about half of them, they bounced off of receiver's hands. Not his fault.

The HOF is about a player's entire body of work. Everything considered and not just cherry picked stats.

In comment 14133802 dep026 said:

Quote:

in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity... 1. INTs 2. W/L%

I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot.

In comment 14134221 EricJ said:

Quote:

In comment 14133802 dep026 said: Quote: in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity... 1. INTs 2. W/L% I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot.

You wouldn't consider INTs at all? That seems like an awfully convenient position to take if you plan on supporting Eli's HOF candidacy, I suppose.

which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.

In comment 14134250 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 14134221 EricJ said: Quote: In comment 14133802 dep026 said: Quote: in some people's thinking. There are a lot of people here and outside the NY area that look for the reasons that Eli shouldnt be in the HOF. Two things are going to be brought up that have validity... 1. INTs 2. W/L% I would not consider INTs at all if I was voting. Win/loss is a big deal for me. I also would weigh Eli as an ambassador of the game which helps him. If that were the sole measurement then he would be first ballot. You wouldn't consider INTs at all? That seems like an awfully convenient position to take if you plan on supporting Eli's HOF candidacy, I suppose.

No.. I wouldn't. There are so many factors that go into INTs. Is the team playing from behind all of the time? Forced to throw 40 times per game? Some of those older QBs barely threw the ball so having a lot of INTs was actually much worse.

What other stat do we need to look at? 3rd down efficiency?

How about how often a guy got hurt and was unable to play? Shouldn't we give Eli credit for his durability?

Analysis paralysis...

In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said:

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which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500.

There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.

In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said: Quote: which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500. There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department.

You sure about that?

In comment 14134263 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said: Quote: which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500. There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department. You sure about that?

100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?

his last name will push it over the top and get him in. (2 SB runs as prohibitive underdogs, 2 SB game-winning drives in the last minute, 2 SB MVPs and numerous top 10 all-time QB stats should be enough by itself, but the anti-NY bias among voters will be a factor.)

In comment 14134268 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14134263 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said: Quote: which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500. There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department. You sure about that? 100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?

No, not really. I'm sure you have some goalpost moving, stat twisting card you're salivating to play, and desperately want me to post something.

Career INT and Fumble numbers all-time are readily available and easily accessible.

In comment 14134268 Gatorade Dunk said:

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There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department. You sure about that? 100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot?

During his time, he certainly was the most turnover prone no matter how you slice his career. From 2004-now, #1 in picks and fumbles...which you would expect given how few qbs played over that time. However, even if you divide his career in his half he is still #1 in picks and fumbles from 04-11 and #1 in picks and #2 in fumbles from 12-current. He's a had a great career, but he has some big flaws and his turnovers will be part of his story come HoF eligibility time.
Should be noted that the stats below list fumbles and not fumbles lost. That requires research that I don't have time to do right now
Link - ( New Window )

any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient.

In comment 14134275 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14134268 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14134263 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14134259 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14134255 Britt in VA said: Quote: which isn't going to be favorable to Eli when it's all said and done if it continues on this trajectory. He may finish sub .500. There's a very good chance of that. But it's also silly to ignore the fact that no QB has turned the ball over as much as Eli over the course of his career. And really, no one is all that close to Eli in that department. You sure about that? 100% sure. Just like I was 100% sure that Eli had missed a game since high school. Want to take a shot? No, not really. I'm sure you have some goalpost moving, stat twisting card you're salivating to play, and desperately want me to post something. Career INT and Fumble numbers all-time are readily available and easily accessible.

During Eli's career. So, since 2004. That's a fair context isn't it? From the time that Eli entered the NFL, no QB has turned the ball over as often as he has. Is that me twisting a stat or moving the goalposts?

In comment 14134304 Britt in VA said:

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any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient.

How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often?

against players from prior eras is not even remotely fair. Qbs simply threw more picks in other eras per passing attempt for a number of reasons.

This cannot be dismissed easily in his consideration. He was extremely turnover prone for the era in which he played.

In comment 14134304 Britt in VA said:

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any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient.

There used to be a weekly thread comparing Eli to Simms. I thought that thread was nuts due to comparing qbs separated 25 years apart. The game is different, particulalry since they added all the rules hampering the dbs. I assumed Gatorade Dunk meant over Eli's career as that is apples to apples. Even mediocre qbs today look like beasts when compared to qbs of the 80s and 90s.

In comment 14134308 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14134304 Britt in VA said: Quote: any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient. How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often?

If he threw the ball less... then yes. I cannot help but think that if we had ANY running game at all over the past 6 years that Eli would have far fewer turnovers.

if not on the 2 SB runs alone. QBs who have accomplished less are in. Maybe not on the first ballot (although I think he will) but he will be in eventually.

he was 1st in turnovers during his prime with great run game and o line. he has always been turnover prone. run game has little to do with it.

In comment 14134347 hassan said:

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he was 1st in turnovers during his prime with great run game and o line. he has always been turnover prone. run game has little to do with it.

still going back on my earlier position which is that I do not think INTs to me are a serious consideration for whether someone gets into the HOF. Winning percentage is more important for a QB.

In comment 14134339 EricJ said:

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In comment 14134308 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14134304 Britt in VA said: Quote: any INT's or fumbles that occurred prior? That's convenient. How is that convenient? Since Eli entered the league, no player has turned the ball over as frequently as he has. That's a fact. Do you think if Eli had entered the league earlier he'd have turned it over LESS often? If he threw the ball less... then yes. I cannot help but think that if we had ANY running game at all over the past 6 years that Eli would have far fewer turnovers.

Eli led the league in INTs in 2007 with the 4th ranked rushing attack and again in 2010 with the 6th ranked rushing attack. So while you could probably make a case that a better rushing attack during the past few years may have mitigated some of Eli's INTs, I don't think you can dismiss his turnover rate on the basis of supporting cast. At some point, you have to acknowledge that Eli is the common denominator.

In comment 14134355 Gatorade Dunk said:

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I don't think you can dismiss his turnover rate on the basis of supporting cast. At some point, you have to acknowledge that Eli is the common denominator.

I understand your point

Look at Favre's career statistics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Favre#NFL_career_statistics

He led the league in so many different categories across multiple years.

Same with Brees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Brees#NFL_career_statistics

Same with Marino:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino#NFL_career_statistics


Eli has led in NO categories across a 15 year career (other than INTs):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning#NFL_career_statistics

He will be a 2 time SB winner, a 2 time SB MVP, and a 4 time Pro Bowler.

How can that not be in the HOF?

and struggled to get in for years. eli has two alternate pro bowls and two legit ones.

Eli’s aggregate compilation has been discussed an nauseum - in 15 years he will be surpassed by many qbs in fact and he had pedestrian yards per attempt the true measure.

His case is defined by big moments and his record in road playoff games. No shame in that.

He was very good from 08-12 and in 14,15 if not great and he was great in 2011. But that is not what gets him in.

in regards to the all-time passing yards and all-time passing TDs stat. The game is a pinball machine now and it's only getting worse as the league keeps trying to make it tougher for defenses to do anything. Eli's HOF case is that he is a 2x Super Bowl MVP--one of only five to to that--and beating Belichick/Brady twice in the Super Bowl.