I'm on the fence. He's a two time Superbowl winning QB and two time Superbowl MVP. He holds most if not all the Giants QB records. The argument in my mind would be he's been playing on a bad team for a long time and his play has been poor to average regardless of the team around him. Right or wrong people tend to forget what you did and remember what your doing now it's just human nature.
I think ELI has been a great Giant and great teammate. I'm not posting this to bash him just curious what you guys think on the subject.
Not sure if anyone has shared any of this, if so, my apologies for the duplication.
I think it's behind a pay wall, but I'll link it anyway and share some snippets/highlights..
The anti-Eli argument: In the 12 other seasons of Manning’s career, not counting the one in progress, he has not won a single playoff game. He’s 8-0 in the Super Bowl seasons, but 0-4 otherwise. He has missed the playoffs six times. He has not been to the playoffs since 2011. His overall regular season record is an uninspiring 112-108.
Manning is not nearly as good as his older brother. He is not Tom Brady. He’s not as good as Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. But Brady is the only one of that group to win more Super Bowls than Eli, who has won as many as his brother and one more than Brees and Rodgers.
He has always thrown way too much interceptions, too often makes mistakes associated with players early in their career and although his career yards and touchdowns all easily place him in the top 10, he’s never been considered an elite quarterback. But he’s been durable and reliable. He started 210 consecutive games, the second longest streak for a quarterback in NFL history, until he was benched for one game in 2017. He has never missed a game because of injury.
How will all that play out in the Hall of Fame meeting room held the day before the Super Bowl?.....
the conclusion...
Manning was running a close race with his draft classmate Ben Roethlisberger until recently. Big Ben is finishing up stronger. It will be to Manning’s benefit to retire before Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Roethlisberger and get in before they are eligible.
Should Eli get in?
All I can say is with the Super Bowl on the line twice, he came up big against great Patriots teams. And isn’t that how quarterbacks should be judged?
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
After listing all the positives and negatives, that's the conclusion he comes to.
Also, no mention of luck.
Again, no mention of luck.
Link - ( New Window )
Five years after he retires, Eli Manning will be eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Slam dunk? Hardly.
How is it trending? Based on my experience as one of the 48 voters, it’s going to take persuasive arguments for Manning to make it on the first ballot and perhaps any subsequent year.
No chance? Only the anti-Eli faction would feel that way.
This election is too close to call, but I plan to vote for Manning the first time he’s on the ballot and keep voting for him every year until he gets in.
His brother Peyton is such a sure thing when he’s a first-time eligible for the Class of 2021 that the voter from Indianapolis responsible for making the presentation to the rest of the room might just stand up and say, “Peyton Manning” and sit down without even discussing his credentials.
That’s what happened with Jerry Rice and Brett Favre. Nothing needed to be said.
It won’t be that easy for Eli. It figures...
2. I don't think he meant that every single person outside NY feel that way. Some def do, are you debating that?
Lets just agree to disagree. Any discussion with you about Eli goes nowhere and gets twisted like a pretzel.
-Gary Meyers
In reality, he's had 8 great weeks. Those 8 weeks during the two SB runs.
If I was a voter I would find it very hard to reward someone a great individual honor based on 8 weeks over 15 years.
Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat...
But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones.
Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat...
But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones.
What's not factual? Eli is an accumulator.
I don't think he was better as his position than Tiki was at RB.
Eli is not a great player. Very good, not great.
Great careers get you into the HOF. Eli has had a great career. You’re just too close to see it right now.
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Love posts like these as they are posed as fact. Any Eli mau never have been a leader in an individual stat...
But he is top 7 all time in all the important ones.
What's not factual? Eli is an accumulator.
I don't think he was better as his position than Tiki was at RB.
Isnt anyone who starts an acummalator? In order to get get stats, you need to play.
I dont really see this year and last year as accumulating since there hasnt been much to accumulate.
Eli is not a great player. Very good, not great.
Some of you need to examine things for what they are not what you think.
We aren’t examining whether Eli was great or good or bad. Body of work people. And comparing that body of work to others IN Canton.
When someone says “fuck no” you’ve lost all credibility because it’s obvious you’re not looking at everything. You’re just frustrated with the last few years.
Eli’s career stacks up with the all time greats. He’s getting in.
agree with Keith, it's a positive, not a negative, for Eli to have accumulated so many yards and TD passes.
If that's all he'd done, I can see a case being made that for whatever reason he was mediocre yet his team kept running him out there every Sunday.
But the fact he has two rings and two SB MVP's sort of counters that claim.
In the end I think Eli gets in, but it will take some time.
2015 was Eli's best year statistically. He was:
19th in completion %
6th in yards
Tied for 2nd with 4 other guys in TD's
7th most INT's
13th in QBR
2015 was Eli's best year statistically. He was:
19th in completion %
6th in yards
Tied for 2nd with 4 other guys in TD's
7th most INT's
13th in QBR
I forget the exact numbers but I read somewhere that between 2014-2016 Eli was top 5 in yards and TDs during that time period.
bw in dc : 11:32 am : link : reply
he's never been one of the best 5 QBs in the league. Never led the league in ANY relevant, positive QB stat.
Just trying to take aim before the goalposts move.
2010:
5th in passing yards
4th in TD's
1st in deep passes with 92 completed (throwing in the deep pass stat because I found it a hot topic lately)
2011:
4th in passing yards
6th in passing TD's
1st (tied with Tom Brady) for deep passes with 99 completed.
2015:
6th in passing yards
2nd in TD's
3rd (tied with Andrew Luck and Jay Cutler) for deep passes with 87 completed.
I think those are meaningful QB numbers in a single season.
Of course, Aaron Rodgers 45 TD's and 15-1 record locked that up for him at the time, but didn't do him much good in the first playoff game against the Giants.
Namath did nothing in that Super Bowl. Snell scored the only Jets TD and defense had 4 interceptions.
Eli beat the best ever that day. I'd say the helmet catch is better or just as equal to Namath's prediction.
Namath had more swagger.
Namath basically called the plays in that super bowl. He was the biggest reason why the jets won that game.
Namath was a terrific elite player for about 7 years. He did enough.
Eli did enough over the first ten years or so. He then padded over the next 6-7.
And it wasnt until about 6-7 seasons into Eli's career where he became part of the passign frenzy in the NFL. The early part of his career was run, playaction.
He pretty much said he should get in with some minor caveats. And those caveats will merely delay his induction.
Why??? Well, we should have little doubt that by 2033, when Eli should still be on the HoF ballot looking to get in, he will have been pushed out of the top 15 on the all-time list in these passing statistics. Any doubt to that?
That answers your why, and let me ask another "why". Why are you guys double-booking Eli's achievements: praising his iron-man streak, and then praising his total passing yard separately, and then praising his total completions separately, and then praising his total TDs separately? You do understand you are blatantly double-booking, even triple-booking, don't you?
The one standard of excellence which has NOT evolved, which has NOT been cheapened (a lot), which can NOT be double-booked with longevity, is wins, or winning percentage. A 4000-yard, 30-TD season in 2018 is not nearly impressive as it was in 1988, but a 12-wins/4-losses season is still every bit great in 2018 as it was in 1988. So how is Eli doing in this all-important statistic? A grand total of 4 games over .500, in his 15th year. YIKES!!!!
Dep026 stated above that HoF is an individual achievement. Okay, let's look at it from that perspective. 95% of supporting evidence to Eli's HoF claim came in 8 weeks of his 15-year career. 8 weeks out of 15 years, think about that. But even in just those 8 playoff weeks, the Giants would not have won either Super Bowl if Eli's defense were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Any disagreement to that?
Looking deeper, in Eli's two Super Bowl wins, his defenses gave up 14 points and (net) 15 points, respectively. The last team which gave up less and still failed to the win the game goes all the way back to 1973, the dead-ball era.
Tell me again about team achievement vs. individual achievement, dep.
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stats is so easy, why have only 7 or 8 QB's in NFL history accumulated more stats than Eli?
Why??? Well, we should have little doubt that by 2033, when Eli should still be on the HoF ballot looking to get in, he will have been pushed out of the top 15 on the all-time list in these passing statistics. Any doubt to that?
That answers your why, and let me ask another "why". Why are you guys double-booking Eli's achievements: praising his iron-man streak, and then praising his total passing yard separately, and then praising his total completions separately, and then praising his total TDs separately? You do understand you are blatantly double-booking, even triple-booking, don't you?
The one standard of excellence which has NOT evolved, which has NOT been cheapened (a lot), which can NOT be double-booked with longevity, is wins, or winning percentage. A 4000-yard, 30-TD season in 2018 is not nearly impressive as it was in 1988, but a 12-wins/4-losses season is still every bit great in 2018 as it was in 1988. So how is Eli doing in this all-important statistic? A grand total of 4 games over .500, in his 15th year. YIKES!!!!
Dep026 stated above that HoF is an individual achievement. Okay, let's look at it from that perspective. 95% of supporting evidence to Eli's HoF claim came in 8 weeks of his 15-year career. 8 weeks out of 15 years, think about that. But even in just those 8 playoff weeks, the Giants would not have won either Super Bowl if Eli's defense were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Any disagreement to that?
Looking deeper, in Eli's two Super Bowl wins, his defenses gave up 14 points and (net) 15 points, respectively. The last team which gave up less and still failed to the win the game goes all the way back to 1973, the dead-ball era.
Tell me again about team achievement vs. individual achievement, dep.
Firstly, Eli has all the requisite stats, or will. They’ve all been enumerated on here and elsewhere. As to looking deeper or injecting elements of LUCK, how about this as one of countless examples of “Luck.” If the Eagles in 2010, do not stage a miracle coneback victory over us, down 31-10 with half a qtr to play, the Packers DO NOT make the playoffs and Aaron Rodgers is STILL waiting for his only SB trophy. Is that “luck,” is that looking deeper?
EVERY SB entrant/winner has luck. Luck with injuries, fortuitous calls, you name it.
Eli, Brady, Bradshaw, Starr(?) are one of the few or only QBs in SB history to win TWO OR MORE SB MVPS. That is huge, especially given the ELITE talent he had to face just to get there.
He’s a lock. Immortally.
Between Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Smith, OBJ Eli sure has sent a lot of WRs to the pro bowl.
We aren’t examining whether Eli was great or good or bad. Body of work people. And comparing that body of work to others IN Canton.
When someone says “fuck no” you’ve lost all credibility because it’s obvious you’re not looking at everything. You’re just frustrated with the last few years.
Eli’s career stacks up with the all time greats. He’s getting in.
So, if I were to say Eli only won a playoff game in 2 of his 15 years, does that count as his body of work?
Or how about in his 15 year career, he led the league in INTs 3 times and never once led the league in Yards, TDs, Completions, Comp. Pct or QBR? 15 years, not a single time!
How can you call someone a GREAT QB when they don't lead the league once in any meaningful category?
Hey I have an idea... lets ignore longevity in the league and also schemes when some of these guys played.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
Is the HOF a team accomplishment?
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Find all of the QBs in history who started at least 100 games. Sort by winning percentage and see where Eli ranks in that group.
I already did it. Go ahead and lets see what you come up with Britt.
Is the HOF a team accomplishment?
Not too worry. It’s TylerAimee being TylerAimee
it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.
it would be far more interesting to show int pct relative to your peers and rank-Far more telling. El does not fare well here.
Brees and Peyton are there too. I think they should be in the same era as Eli.
1. INTs
2. W/L%
Lets throw number 2 out for a second since thats team accomplishment, not an individual one. So lets look at INTs - Eli's biggest flaw as a QB.
Eli has thrown more INTs than his peers from his time period. That cannot be questioned - but is that the single reason why he SHOULDNT be in the HOF? I mean he has a lot of wins. He has a lot of yards and TDs. He has the postseason accolades. He has been NFL man of the year finalist twice, winner once.
People are contradicting themselves a lot in this thread. People argue he is a compiler of yards and TDs. Well then isnt he a compiler of INTs and losses as well? People are pointing out win/loss percentage.... well if winning is the ultimate goal - isnt being the best player in the biggest game trump regular season?
Troy Aikman never once led the NFL in any statistical category. He was never an all-pro. He threw for 20 Tds ONCE in his career. And there is no doubt he was a first ballot HOF.
Yeah I agree with you. Pointing out where Eli ranks on INT list is not a good thing for him.
His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers.
To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era.
Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.
His volume numbers are a bit more normalized because of era he played in. his aggregate numbers come with high aggregate attempts. His int overall should be high as a result. The issue is his int rate is high relative to his peers. his td and yardage ranks also don’t look as great per year relative to his peers.
To me, he is a borderline case that should get in. i also think Phil Simms should be in because he was a top 15-20 most relevant important player in his era.
Aikman in my opinion is overrated, a hof player who is not a first ballot guy. He was surrounded by a line that had three hall of fame talents and a hall of fame back and wr.
The thing with Eli is even though he was part of the transition to the pass happy league, he was one of the last to really join in. From 2005-2010 the Giants mantra was run the ball and use playaction. Starting in the 2011, and even then it wasnt full blown air-a-thon did we see a switch. From 2012 on to end his career was the time where his stats took off to another level.
I see guys like ryan, Stafford, Wilson, Luck, Cam, and all the young buck as the true beneficiaries of the new NFL. Hell, even guys like Rivers/Ben came from teams who ran a shit ton their early years.
But at the end of the day, here is something that should stand out. When Eli is up for HOF... lets assume guys like Rodgers, Ryan, and Stafford pass him on soem all-time list...
He is still going to be..
Top 10 all time yards
Top 10 all time in TDs
Top 10 all time in wins
2x SB champion
2x SB MVP
Man of the Year.
I am not sure if he is a first/second time ballot guy. But he is going to get in. Whether its his first year eligible or 20th year. People will forget the shit show the Giants became and just look at broader stats and accomplishments.
If he doesnt get in and guys like...
Stafford, Rivers, Ryan, Cam, and lets say Luck for now get in based on a MVP here or some fancy stats there..... that would be a shame IMO.
Played on a great team. Had great physical skills. But his numbers are putrid. At least guys like Dawson, Griese, Namath played in eras where the physicality made passing very difficult.
Find one great season Aikman had. Just one.
Good luck.