As Bill Parcells said, you are what your record says you are.
From my seat, few things need to be part of the rebuild. Realistic stuff. Sure, if Bill B shakes out from New England, you fire everyone in three seconds and give him the job. But that is highly unlikely given his age and success in New England.
1. Stick with Shurmur and Getty for a few more years. You cannot blame Getty fully for the team on the field. Most of it is not his fault. If McIntosh starts practicing and Lauletta is even a strong #2 QB, that was a great draft. Currently, he is taking heat for not grabbing Darnold. But if we end up with Herbert this year, to go with Barkley, that conversatuib could be a thing of the past. Getty needs to string at least two more drafts together like last year. The team is depleted of depth at just about every position.
2. Hoard draft picks. If we get embarrassed Monday night, the time has come to evaluate your assets for the long term, and make pre-deadline moves. Guys I would expect in that analysis include Vernon, Jack Rabbit, Collins, and Eli Mannning.
3. Focus on QB and O line in draft. Get strong, young and cheap at those respective positions. Use the cap relief from Eli, JPP and maybe a guy like Vernon to reload DE, corner and safety.
4. Continue to evaluate OBJ closely in the coming years. When the financials around his deal become more manageable, you need to think hard if you want him being the face and leader of this franchise. From my seat, the answer is no.
5. Stating the obvious, but do nothing that is short sighted for this team/organization. Rebuild the mindset and foundation of this team.
We are in for a long haul ahead.
Take inventory of the current roster and see what veterans you can move out before the deadline. Anyone not named Barkley is on the table.
Take inventory of the current roster and see what veterans you can move out before the deadline. Anyone not named Barkley is on the table.
Agreed
Also agree. Not multiple trades, but you need to think about getting a pick or two back. You might need it to have leverage for a QB draft.
The 2019 draft and FA should be all about getting several OL (especially for the right side) and drafting the best pass rushers on the board. Add a solid outside WR and the basic pieces will be in place.
The 2020 draft and FA (the Giants will be TERRIBLE in 2019 because they will cut a lot of vets this off season) will be about drafting the future QB and getting DBs and other finishing pieces.
This is NOT an overnight rebuild. There is another 2-3 years of pain, depending on how long it takes the young guys to jell.
Debatable. There is no time stamp. But, if you like what is in front of you with a top 3 pick, you grab the QB. There are no guarantees that the 2020 class pans out, or stays healthy. Zero
You strike when the right opportunity presents itself.
You strike when the right opportunity presents itself.
Yes, 100% agree. Sorry. If you like Herbert, and he's within a few picks of you, you grab him. If you like him and he's at your pick with no trade up, you sprint to the podium
A rebuild will take a few years if we do this right. And we are already in year 1.
1 last 4 games start Lauletta. See what he has. Is he the future? If he pulls a Garapalo (wins last 4 games great). If not move on.
2 Offseason release Eli and Vernon. that will bring our cap over 50 mil. Sign a Oline (Looks like guard market is better than OT).
3 Draft (assume we are #1 overall) Draft a qb in rd 1. Rd 2 draft a RT. I am ok with having Greco and Halapio battle for C)
3b If we don't need a qb then Draft Bosa or move down for more picks.
This is a good start.
Of course, we started backwards by drafting a RB first so now we’re in a time pinch - a 5-year window, at best, given that this year is a waste and it takes QBs a couple of years to get their legs under them (assuming we can even get our QB of the future next year).
Of course, we started backwards by drafting a RB first so now we’re in a time pinch - a 5-year window, at best, given that this year is a waste and it takes QBs a couple of years to get their legs under them (assuming we can even get our QB of the future next year).
Agree, with one small edit. The "right" QB last 15 years. The league is littered with guys drafted high that last far less. The Giants do need to be smart with a high pick. The guy has to have the goods. If he does, you jump on him.
If draft picks are like gold shouldn't the FO insure that they have the very best, uber competent scouts, talent evaluators and talent decision makers.
I'm not sure they have that configuration at the present time.
Of course, we started backwards by drafting a RB first so now we’re in a time pinch - a 5-year window, at best, given that this year is a waste and it takes QBs a couple of years to get their legs under them (assuming we can even get our QB of the future next year).
Right, like the Rams who at the moment seem to be the best team in the league; they drafted Goff and then Gurley. Oops, actually they did the opposite and drafted the stud running back, Gurley, first,
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The last piece to add is RB (if you value the position) because good RBs last 7-8 years tops.
Of course, we started backwards by drafting a RB first so now we’re in a time pinch - a 5-year window, at best, given that this year is a waste and it takes QBs a couple of years to get their legs under them (assuming we can even get our QB of the future next year).
Right, like the Rams who at the moment seem to be the best team in the league; they drafted Goff and then Gurley. Oops, actually they did the opposite and drafted the stud running back, Gurley, first,
I should also add that they got their stud left tackle , Whitworth, who stabilized their O-line. Remember Reese passed on him presumably because of his age.
The 2019 draft and FA should be all about getting several OL (especially for the right side) and drafting the best pass rushers on the board. Add a solid outside WR and the basic pieces will be in place.
The 2020 draft and FA (the Giants will be TERRIBLE in 2019 because they will cut a lot of vets this off season) will be about drafting the future QB and getting DBs and other finishing pieces.
This is NOT an overnight rebuild. There is another 2-3 years of pain, depending on how long it takes the young guys to jell.
2020 draft- Tua , enough said
You strike when the right opportunity presents itself.
^^^
This exactly!
Giants' top 3 priorities should be QB, OL and ER, in that order. However it doesn't mean the right players will be available in that order.
If a QB you love is available in RD 1, you take him.
Not convinced the QB is worth it... then grab the best OL or ER.
Going in with a preconceived plan that you need to get all the other pieces in place first before you get the QB is just plain dumb. The QB is the most important piece, so you've absolutely got to take the one you believe in when he's available.
Tell me about long hauls. I have vivid memories from 1964 - 1980.
This. The Giants can get their QB and continue to rebuild the o-line and defense at the same time. You start a rebuild by addressing by far the most important position in the sport.
They have to make some tough decisions on contracts. Eli being #1 and Vernon #2.These are guys eating up cap space and the on field production doesnt match the cap cost.
.. tough decisions will have to be made.
They have to fix the OL.. and this really cant be understated. They have invested a lot of money into skill position players. OBJ, Saquon, Engram..Whether Eli stays or goes (and in all honesty I cannot see him staying), they will have a lot of money and resources invested in the skill positions.. but NONE of that matters if they cant run block or pass protect.. They need to FIX the OL.. with draft picks AND veteran lineman.. and they need depth... badly..
They have to find some pass rush help.. BADLY..
They need a FS who can actually cover some field... They need a Third Corner.. They need SOMEONE who can return punts and kicks..
But the REBUILD..
Its QB and the OL that are the MOST important.. period..
add more LBs & Pass Rushers
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I'm saying you don't build everything else and wait to plug the QB in later.
You strike when the right opportunity presents itself.
^^^
This exactly!
Giants' top 3 priorities should be QB, OL and ER, in that order. However it doesn't mean the right players will be available in that order.
If a QB you love is available in RD 1, you take him.
Not convinced the QB is worth it... then grab the best OL or ER.
Going in with a preconceived plan that you need to get all the other pieces in place first before you get the QB is just plain dumb. The QB is the most important piece, so you've absolutely got to take the one you believe in when he's available.
It really is the key, strike at any position when the opportunity presents itself. If you force it, you may wind up with Ereck Flowers, or at the very least a less talented player, a poor fit, etc.
It goes for any position, which is why many aim for BPA type of philosophy. They got the RB, they need the QB, pass rusher, second WR, offensive tackle and CB prospects in the pipeline. Where and when you wind up getting them is the fun part.
If they were picking #1 or #2, they probably take the QB first, whether right or wrong.
2. Young was a smart history teacher who play OT at Bucknell. So he was a smart man who valued the "o"line. yet,
3. He drafted Phil Simms #1 in ? '79
4. He appointed Ray Perkins head coach and followed him with Parcells(who made many mistakes in his first year and went to a 3-12-1 record, as I recall) when Perkins foolishly disappeared to ALabama.Could make lots of comments abut flaky Parcells and perhaps Perkins inner demons, but not here and now)
5. In '80 he was lucky to have superman fall to #2 and drafted LT. Thank yo New Orleans and ? EArl CAmpbell
6. Yopung let/got rid of some party/troublemakers go in spite of their talent.
7. The Giants were on their way.
8. This is sort of the model I would like to see recur. Knowing there are rare LT's (?Barkley)and Belichek's
9. Young wasn't perfect, and did get get sick, but we owe him a lot and should pray that Gettleman, in spite of his illness can carry this off. Otherwise we are back to the 60-70's.
2. Young was a smart history teacher who play OT at Bucknell. So he was a smart man who valued the "o"line. yet,
3. He drafted Phil Simms #1 in ? '79
4. He appointed Ray Perkins head coach and followed him with Parcells(who made many mistakes in his first year and went to a 3-12-1 record, as I recall) when Perkins foolishly disappeared to ALabama.Could make lots of comments abut flaky Parcells and perhaps Perkins inner demons, but not here and now)
5. In '80 he was lucky to have superman fall to #2 and drafted LT. Thank yo New Orleans and ? EArl CAmpbell
6. Yopung let/got rid of some party/troublemakers go in spite of their talent.
7. The Giants were on their way.
8. This is sort of the model I would like to see recur. Knowing there are rare LT's (?Barkley)and Belichek's
9. Young wasn't perfect, and did get get sick, but we owe him a lot and should pray that Gettleman, in spite of his illness can carry this off. Otherwise we are back to the 60-70's.
I am quite confident Getty can pull this off. I also think Barkley is an LT like talent. Once in 25 years. I agree with everyone that O line means a lot. As does QB. You need both.
But the fact is really good QB's rarely leave the first 5 to ten picks. You can find great o linemen throughout the draft that would be an upgrade to what we have on right side.
I just do not want us passing on QB twice, if the guy is there and you like him.
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I'm saying you don't build everything else and wait to plug the QB in later.
You strike when the right opportunity presents itself.
^^^
This exactly!
Giants' top 3 priorities should be QB, OL and ER, in that order. However it doesn't mean the right players will be available in that order.
If a QB you love is available in RD 1, you take him.
Not convinced the QB is worth it... then grab the best OL or ER.
Going in with a preconceived plan that you need to get all the other pieces in place first before you get the QB is just plain dumb. The QB is the most important piece, so you've absolutely got to take the one you believe in when he's available.
I still believe that Gettleman wasn't convinced that any of those QBs in the draft were the guy.
Maybe he was wrong, we will see, bit but so many are tearing him down for not taking a QB he wasn't sold on.
...that begins with a brand new QB and at least two new offensive linemen.
Once we settle down these two positions a lot will fall in place, including a defense that will have several longs rests on the bench.
On defense, need an edge pass rusher and need at least one LB upgrade and two secondary upgrades.
After that, gotta switch Engram to WR and find a LARGE blocking TE who doesn't trip all over himself when he goes out for a pass.
Bottom line, I count at least 8 new starters who are not on the current roster:
1 QB
2 OL
1 TE
1 Edge Rusher
1 LB
2 DBs
This will take at least two more Drafts and some free agency gambles, so here's my advice:
Go to bed, wake up for the start of the 2020 season, and in just under two years you may have a decent team to root for.
Or, not. Remember, there's always 1964 - 1980.
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If you put a time stamp on it, you're in a bad spot.
Yep. You do t have control over the opportunities.
+1 A lot can happen between now and next years draft, they could end up having to trade up to get what they want. look how much the Jets paid to move up just 3 spots, that could hinder the "rebuild" process greatly.
The offensive unit is worse than the unit under McAdoo, despite having acquired a once-in-a-generation running back, a no-brainer pick. His 'rebuilding' decisions seem to have included overpaying a lousy LT and RG, neither of who has added improved OL performance. He dumped the best OL the Giants had, Brett Jones, for a 7th-round pick, and we have the worst C in the NFL. These decisions are 'long-term'; are they part of a rebuilding 'plan'? Or, are they part of a 'win-now' approach that is failing miserably.
For fans, hope springs eternal. This team's problems begin with the owners, who clearly do not know what they are doing. They pick the 'other' GM candidate originally un=chosen in favor of Reese. They hire another menu-holding, play-calling OC--an offensive genius, of course-- as HC. They either did not know that Shurmur's offensive units, when he was OC or HC, were in the bottom quarter of the NFL in points scored five of ten years.
Shurmur's record as HC had been 9-23 (excluding interim HC Eagles win over Giants), which is about 0.28. As HC of the Giants, his is now about 0.16. What is ownership 'thinking'? Was it that Shurmur improved, or that he lacked good-enough players before? Was it the hope that the other HCs in the NFL are now less qualified than they were before when Shurmur could not win?
As difficult as it is to take, Giants fans may have to acknowledge that front office personnel have everything to do with the future of this franchise; It is NOT primarily about the particular OT, LG, LB, or S now or tomorrow. The FO selects these players. Gettleman selected and overpaid Solder. All the second-guessing and advising does not and will not help. As Ron White says, 'you can't cure stupid.'
Let him hire a Head Coach.
Draft Saquon Barkley.
Get rid of any players that you don't think fit your system going forward.
Replace the players that you got rid of, and plan on getting rid of, no matter what position they play.
Keep in mind that it will take more than 1 year to rebuild.
superspynyg : 9:51 am : link : reply
maybe the OC and DC but I think not.
If you feel they made a bad team worse....otherwise, let's give them more time to screw it up even more....
I these guys can't even evaluate Eli, how the hell can they evaluate a QB pick?
Seems to me that the best and fastest way to rebuild would be with multi draft picks something the Giants don’t have , so how do we acquire them , who can WE trade ?
. . .
But the fact is really good QB's rarely leave the first 5 to ten picks. You can find great o linemen throughout the draft that would be an upgrade to what we have on right side.
Finding a great O-lineman is not so easy. After round 2, the chance of finding a long term starter goes down to 40%, based on historical success rates. I agree with not passing up on a QB, but both positions are high needs.
Draft success rates:
https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round
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. . .
But the fact is really good QB's rarely leave the first 5 to ten picks. You can find great o linemen throughout the draft that would be an upgrade to what we have on right side.
Finding a great O-lineman is not so easy. After round 2, the chance of finding a long term starter goes down to 40%, based on historical success rates. I agree with not passing up on a QB, but both positions are high needs.
Draft success rates:
https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round
It's a good point. But to analyze this properly, you have to look at the rate of o line success in later rounds not in a bubble but against QB's in later rounds. Finding a franchise, 15 year QB in the later rounds is far less probable than o line help. A right guard, starter stud can be found in rounds 2-4. A QB, not easy. It happens, but not easy
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I agree. We have zero pass rush. We just overpaid for a LT and hernandez is really thenonoy guy on that o line i would keep although we are stuck with solder for at least 2 more years. Pass rush wins games we havemt pressured qb almost all season. Our sack total is a joke. When we had Osi, Tuck, and Strahan, eli was above mediocre but won us 2 Superbowls. Strahan only there for one. But it proves we dont need Aaron Rogers to lead us to a superbowl. This misconception that QBs are only pick that should be made with a top 3 pick is trash. Barkley grab was key. We just need to rebuild o line right side. We need 2 Guards and a RT. A center too. Makes that brett jones trade look idiotic now. Pulled for him through the years. He is definitely worth more than a 7th rounder. John Jerry should have stay omameh is overpaid, he is the flowers of guards. Scrap stewart and omameh contract immediately. I know everypne is like trade snacks or jack rabnit but they are key to our d run stop so i think that is bad idea. Maybe OV goes cause he has problem staying healthy. We need a top DE in draft
That is what inthink we need to go for.
I don’t see us making multiple trades at the deadline. This isn’t the nhl or mlb.
Also agree. Not multiple trades, but you need to think about getting a pick or two back. You might need it to have leverage for a QB draft.
If so, i would preffer a trade down to get one or two extra picks and then go pass rush and oline.
In other words, we start the rebuild all over again. This time it’s obvious QB is a priority (Eli was debatable last year).
We would have 12 quality starters through the draft, have to assume that we'd retain 3 current players as quality starters (Barkley plus you decide which other 2), meaning just 6 others through FA or trade. That's a much better position than we're in right now.
Quality drafts are the way to build a team.