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| The logic here is the Raiders are trying to reboot everything and want a cheap, young quarterback. The Giants are trying NOT to reboot, but put themselves in a position where they only have an aging, washed-up Eli Manning under center. They need a veteran upgrade and Carr might be the answer to pair with Saquon Barkley, Odell Beckham and a host of offensive weapons. "That makes all the sense in the world to me. The Giants don't really want to rebuild. And they don't really want to admit they screwed up by not taking a quarterback, right?" La Canfora said. "So they trade what will be a fairly high [first-round pick] or maybe they do it for a future [first-round pick] if this one looks like it's going to be top two or three. I think that's what they do and they plug him right in there with Barkley, Odell and Shephard and [Evan Engram] and they try to keep that thing going." It sounds pretty wild, but when you think about the motivations for both of the teams, it's not that out of control. The Giants wouldn't give up their 2019 first-round pick (it should be high) but might be willing to part with their 2020 first-round pick, believing they can win next year and not face a high pick if they land Carr. |
Draft a QB.
What a fucking moron
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
Hes the type that has a few monstrous games that look legit. But I have never been impressed with him and his play this year has been even worse than Eli's.
How does anyone take anything this guy says seriously? He
is one of the worst in the business.
The cap number is what is important and it is:
2018: $25m, $32m in dead money
2019: $22.5m, $7.5m in dead money
2020: $21.5,, $5m in dead money
2021: $22m, $2.5m in dead money
2022: $19.8m, $0 in dead money
Would allow us to get a top O-line or edge rusher.
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
I wouldn't say he sucks either, but he is a bit of a dink and dunker. He's never been top 15 in YPA. If it were only a 2020 #1, I'd think about it, but I seriously doubt OAK moves him for that. They will insist on a 2019 #1 at the very least.
I don't think he sucks though - that's a bit much. He's 27 years old and has some excellent seasons on his resume. A change of scenery will do him good. A change of scenery with Barkley, Beckham, Engram and a halfway decent line would do him very good. This isn't something to dismiss right away.
Makes zero sense for the GIANTS. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The big goose egg.
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If they have to wait a year, they'll want more in the deal. His contract isn't as bad as I thought, but I'm not sold on him. With the number of holes the team has to fill, I'd rather gamble on a lower-wage rookie, and use that money elsewhere.
The cap number is what is important and it is:
2018: $25m, $32m in dead money
2019: $22.5m, $7.5m in dead money
2020: $21.5,, $5m in dead money
2021: $22m, $2.5m in dead money
2022: $19.8m, $0 in dead money
Is this pre or post trade?
If pre trade a lot of that dead cap will sit with Oakland
With that being said, if the Oakland finished with the #1 pick and decided on taking Herbert then I'd be interested in that trade. Carr is talented and has played at a high level. Despite his play/production last season and the first 6 weeks of this season, I still think he can be a very good starter in the league.
Just look at his spray chart last week in a game that they were getting beat badly. Not to mention his WR's were targeted a total of 13 games in the game.
for comparison sake, here's Eli's - ( New Window )
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
No, he doesn't suck at all. He's just not worth the big contract *and* the draft picks they'll probably want in return.
Better to draft a QB.
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Granted I don't watch a ton of Raider games but does he really suck?
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
No, he doesn't suck at all. He's just not worth the big contract *and* the draft picks they'll probably want in return.
Better to draft a QB.
His contract isnt that big
We would be on the books for about 20 a year when QBs are signing for closer to 30 these days
I'd lean against making a trade like this, but to completely dismiss the notion of acquiring 27-year-old QB who already has three Pro Bowl seasons on his resume is a bit much. There would be a market for Carr if he were made available, and we'd be foolish not to at least inquire.
"Just draft Tua in 2020!" isn't all that reliable of a plan either, unless you're expecting us to go 3-13 for three straight seasons.
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If they have to wait a year, they'll want more in the deal. His contract isn't as bad as I thought, but I'm not sold on him. With the number of holes the team has to fill, I'd rather gamble on a lower-wage rookie, and use that money elsewhere.
The cap number is what is important and it is:
2018: $25m, $32m in dead money
2019: $22.5m, $7.5m in dead money
2020: $21.5,, $5m in dead money
2021: $22m, $2.5m in dead money
2022: $19.8m, $0 in dead money
You should get the #s right then! :-)
Giants would not be on the hook for his signing bonus, therefore:
2019: $20m, $0 in dead money
2020: $19, $0 in dead money
2021: $19.625m, $0 in dead money
2022: $19.9, $0 in dead money
Only dead money would be if he 'earns' the workout bonus for a given year ($100k each offseason) and then they subsequently cut him.
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In comment 14132961 Danny Kanell said:
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Granted I don't watch a ton of Raider games but does he really suck?
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
No, he doesn't suck at all. He's just not worth the big contract *and* the draft picks they'll probably want in return.
Better to draft a QB.
His contract isnt that big
We would be on the books for about 20 a year when QBs are signing for closer to 30 these days
Even still, this team is devoid of talent and they need the picks. Plus, we could be in position to grab the top QB in the draft at a much cheaper salary. Still not worth it. If the team was ready to make a run and just needed a QB, then it'd be a different story.
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The cap number is what is important and it is:
2018: $25m, $32m in dead money
2019: $22.5m, $7.5m in dead money
2020: $21.5,, $5m in dead money
2021: $22m, $2.5m in dead money
2022: $19.8m, $0 in dead money
Actually, the cap number isn't important. If we traded for him we'd get him without any of the "dead money" and have to pay his salary only which would be slightly under $20m/year for the remainder of his contract.
No, he doesn't suck. However, he is not an elite player but he is making $20M a year. The real question is "is Carr that much better than a rookie QB on a better deal for 5 years?" My guess would be no since the Giants will likely be picking high so you can find a guy with similar upside on a much cheaper contract for the same first round pick.
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Derek Carr sucks
No, he doesn't suck. However, he is not an elite player but he is making $20M a year. The real question is "is Carr that much better than a rookie QB on a better deal for 5 years?" My guess would be no since the Giants will likely be picking high so you can find a guy with similar upside on a much cheaper contract for the same first round pick.
Floor vs ceiling.
You have a good idea of what Carr's floor (or ceiling) is at this point, which is considerably higher than that of a draftee. But is that worth a $10M (per year) premium relative to what you'd pay the draftee? And sacrificing some of the draftee's upside?
Another thing to consider is what else can you do with that $20M? Is Carr + Bosa (or the top OT) better than Herbert + FA DE/OT + a few million extra?
Carr would have 4 years left at $75M. $22M guaranteed.
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In comment 14132952 dep026 said:
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Derek Carr sucks
No, he doesn't suck. However, he is not an elite player but he is making $20M a year. The real question is "is Carr that much better than a rookie QB on a better deal for 5 years?" My guess would be no since the Giants will likely be picking high so you can find a guy with similar upside on a much cheaper contract for the same first round pick.
Floor vs ceiling.
You have a good idea of what Carr's floor (or ceiling) is at this point, which is considerably higher than that of a draftee. But is that worth a $10M (per year) premium relative to what you'd pay the draftee? And sacrificing some of the draftee's upside?
Another thing to consider is what else can you do with that $20M? Is Carr + Bosa (or the top OT) better than Herbert + FA DE/OT + a few million extra?
Besides my opinion on that, that's a contract that negates even entertaining that trade.
All of the bonus accelerates in Oakland before he gets here, so he's low risk - all you're out is the 2nd round pick.
I'm not a huge fan of Carr's - maybe I'm like the NFL before he was drafted and hold his name against him - but if the draft doesn't hold a solid QB this year, you could do worse. That also frees you up to draft the best DE/OT this year.
Depends on whether they'd take anything but a 1st, and what the QB prospects in 2019 are.
The combination is greater aggregate value than any other possible scenario.
Now, I wanted give them whatever they wanted, I probably wouldn't give them a 1st.
But if we could add a talent like Derek Carr, a QB with experience who has put up good numbers and is just entering his prime, for a 2nd? I'd have to think long and hard about it.
Paul Dottino also said that Webb was the next franchise QB for the Giants.
I don’t think Carr is bad. Team could offer our 2nd rounder for him. Then sign an OT in FA and use our #1 pick on elite edge rusher.
How can you say he sucks? Look at his numbers...he was probably the MVP of the league few years ago before he was hurt, right?
At 27.....I'd think long and hard about it. A second round pick? Absolutely.
At that point it would make no sense for Oakland to trade him, all they'd get is some cap relief (if any, due to the acceleration of his bonus). They could just as easily keep him another season and let the rookie QB they draft sit on the bench and get ready.
Lauletta's cap number is almost negligible. Between now and 2021 his cap hit never reaches $1M. If we enter 2019 with him as our starting QB, that's like finding $20M in cap space.
I'd like to blow up the entire team and build it around Barkley and Lauletta. While that isn't going to happen, entering 2019 with Lauletta as the starter (getting starter's reps all offseason) is IMO the fastest track to getting this team competitive again within the current model they are trying to install.
Priority #1 this season now, to me, is to get Lauletta significant playing time.
Lauletta's cap number is almost negligible. Between now and 2021 his cap hit never reaches $1M. If we enter 2019 with him as our starting QB, that's like finding $20M in cap space.
I'd like to blow up the entire team and build it around Barkley and Lauletta. While that isn't going to happen, entering 2019 with Lauletta as the starter (getting starter's reps all offseason) is IMO the fastest track to getting this team competitive again within the current model they are trying to install.
Priority #1 this season now, to me, is to get Lauletta significant playing time.
This! Find out if KL even has a chance to develop into an average (or better) QB. If he can demonstrate that potential it opens up a ton of possibilities, including drafting the best DE/OT at the top of the 1st or dealing the pick to a QB needy team (e.g. Broncos/Raiders) and then filling multiple holes with cheap (relatively) young talent.
Lauletta's cap number is almost negligible. Between now and 2021 his cap hit never reaches $1M. If we enter 2019 with him as our starting QB, that's like finding $20M in cap space.
I'd like to blow up the entire team and build it around Barkley and Lauletta. While that isn't going to happen, entering 2019 with Lauletta as the starter (getting starter's reps all offseason) is IMO the fastest track to getting this team competitive again within the current model they are trying to install.
Priority #1 this season now, to me, is to get Lauletta significant playing time.
Building around a 4th round QB with a weak arm. This is a terrible idea. Ride out the season, send Eli off into the sunset and draft A bluechip QB. KL isn't the answer.
It's the 2019 1st round pick why you say no.
If the Giants remain on this downward spiral they'll have their pick of the 2019 draft QB's and that is more valuable than a highly paid mediocre veteran QB.
and the odds of Lauletta doing anything on a football field to say "no way do the Giants bring in a veteran, highly paid QB" to replace Eli is beyond remote.
-Signed Solder
-Traded for Ogletree
-Drafted Barkley
-Extended Beckham
I could see the logic in not wanting to put in a rookie QB & retool. But, I would NOT do this.
It is not just about Lauletta. It's about the resource in hand vs. what we don't have in hand. If we go forward with Lauletta we can draft a blue chip at another position AND have an additional $20M in cap space to spend elsewhere.
1970 was a fun season.
Eagles: Wentz
Rams: Goff
Seattle: Wilson
Chiefs: Mahomes
Texans: Watson
Tampa: Winston (9 - 7 with 2nd year Winston, though missed playoffs)
and more...
Even Mariota made the playoffs (without a superlative surrounding cast - though he seems to have regressed)
My point is the great supporting cast with Barkley, Beckham, Shepard, etc. should not be a deterrent to going with a rookie.
Why give up anything for Foles when he is a free agent at seasons end?
I dunno, the trade for Eli worked out pretty well.
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If we are going to consider trading for a QB - why don't we consider Foles? Presumably the price is high but I dunno
Why give up anything for Foles when he is a free agent at seasons end?
Yea fair point. If he hits FA I just assumed his asking $ is going to be too high.
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In comment 14133184 ImThatGuy said:
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If we are going to consider trading for a QB - why don't we consider Foles? Presumably the price is high but I dunno
Why give up anything for Foles when he is a free agent at seasons end?
Yea fair point. If he hits FA I just assumed his asking $ is going to be too high.
Umm, if we trade for him we still have to give him a new contract before he hits FA.
Eli my dude and I wanted him to do well but the OL is avg at best but Eli is done ... at best he can be a backup at this stage ... he needs a Utopian situation and that is not realistic in the NFL not for sustained success over a full season or post-season run.
We do need to remember that drafting a QB high is no guarantee of success. There are a ton of busts and should we swing and miss, the team is set back a long way. ANY rookie is a risk, particularly at QB.
I remember Dave Brown, who was supposed to be the next franchise QB for us, but there are plenty of other examples.
Whether or not Carr is the right guy, that is a different story.
From a contract perspective Carr is affordable for a veteran QB and locked up through the 2022 season. If we traded for him, the annual cost is around $19.6m per year with no guaranteed money, which means there is minimal risk.
Considering veteran QBs are up around $27m-$30m per year at the moment (and will only get higher).
It would all depend on what it would cost to acquire Carr in a trade. I would expect it would cost our early second round pick to get him. The merit here is we still keep our first round pick to address other positions.
Carr is young at 27 and has great intangibles, the question for me is whether he is the guy we want and if Gettleman and Shurmur believe he is the answer. Given his brother's time here, Carr will certainly be very familiar with what Giants football is all about.
Another option could equally be Jacoby Brissett, who I would expect would have a similar cost to acquire. Although he is off contract after 2019 so would likely be planning for his mega deal. (Remember the Franchise Tag will be prohibitive should it be needed).
If we want to go down the veteran path, the question will be timing. This needs to be carefully considered given how the Eli Manning situation was handled last year. In either case, the most likely scenario is after the season. But a mid season trade for either Carr or Brissett is a viable option. For Carr, he was a $7.4m base salary this year, so we would currently need to have $4.625m. With Brissett we would need $460k.
I don't think Eli is the solution for us past this year. In which case we need to find a solution either through the draft, free agency or trade. Trading for Carr or Brissett gives us an affordable young veteran for Shurmuur to work with and will keep some of our premium resources to fix other areas of the team.
I am not advocating any particular option, but the trade does make business sense.
Eli my dude and I wanted him to do well but the OL is avg at best but Eli is done ... at best he can be a backup at this stage ... he needs a Utopian situation and that is not realistic in the NFL not for sustained success over a full season or post-season run.
Lauletta had a training camp with limited reps and less than half a season with almost no reps other than scout team. It's unfair to him and the team to throw him in when he isn't ready. To say he can't be worse than a 15-year vet whose had a great career -- even one who isn't playing well at the moment -- is just not accurate.
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involved a guy named Y.A. Tittle. The draftf picks surrendered for Tarkenton and Craig 'effin Morton, even Jim Gel Gaizo, were major contributors to the dark age of Giants football and if some fans think we're in a dark age now, you really have no idea how bad it was back then. Also, Giants need to find out what they have in Lauletta before they even think about giving up draft picks for Carr, Bridgewater, Brissett (OMG) or anyone else.
I dunno, the trade for Eli worked out pretty well.
Fair point but not quite the same situation.
Sound familiar..
Here's the problem with your plan and with the thought that it's easy to trade up for a QB.
Let's say the Giants end up drafting at #2 or higher (meaning 3-32) and the team with the number #1 overall pick (like Oak) is dead set on taking a QB.
And then let's also say that either Herbert decides to stay in school and/or there's only only QB worthy of a high 1st RD grade.
That would mean the Giants' choices for QB in 2019 would be Eli, Lauletta, over-drafting a rookie QB or signing/trading for a vet QB.
In that scenario I'd consider a 2nd rd this coming draft or a 2 and a conditional 4 the following year for Carr.
"Stopped reading when I got to, (said name). "
Anyone who things Foles is better than Carr.......sheesh.
Foles is nothing more than a backup QB.
It is not just about Lauletta. It's about the resource in hand vs. what we don't have in hand. If we go forward with Lauletta we can draft a blue chip at another position AND have an additional $20M in cap space to spend elsewhere.
I endorse this. In fact, I’d jumpstart the idea by benching Manning now and giving Lauletta the keys to the car. If the season is sunk, and a loss to Atlanta would essentially seal it, then may as well jump into the deep end of the pool.
This season could be a big blessing in disguise if Jints Central plays it right.
Because he's 30 and mediocre. Did you not see the games he started this year or are we still pretending he's a super bowl mvp?
Sorry draft Herbert even if you have to tank Lauletta was picked just to satisfy the fans that the team can say we took Barkley but we might have a future QB too .......bullshit
Oakland needs a pass rusher.
We keep our draft picks.
Oakland needs a pass rusher.
We keep our draft picks.
Vernon's too young for Gruden, but he might be interested in Barwin!
2014 (Rookie year) 59% Comp 3270 yards 21 TD 12 INT
2015: 61% Comp 3987 yards 32 TD 13 INT
2016: 64% Comp 3937 yards 28 TD 6 INT
2017: 63% comp 3496 yards 22 TD 13 INT
2018: 72% comp 1783 yards 7 TD 8 INT
He's 27 years old and entering his prime. He's only missed 2 regular season games in his career. I know he broker his leg but he's been durable. He's mobile.
He needs out of Oakland.
I wouldn't say he sucks.
Haha, of course he doesn't suck. Gotta love this place, sometimes.
Lauletta's cap number is almost negligible. Between now and 2021 his cap hit never reaches $1M. If we enter 2019 with him as our starting QB, that's like finding $20M in cap space.
I'd like to blow up the entire team and build it around Barkley and Lauletta. While that isn't going to happen, entering 2019 with Lauletta as the starter (getting starter's reps all offseason) is IMO the fastest track to getting this team competitive again within the current model they are trying to install.
Priority #1 this season now, to me, is to get Lauletta significant playing time.
I’m not against this at all either but I’m scared of hitching our wagon to a supposed low ceiling talent like lauletta. Maybe that’s unfair though.
I’ve long been of the belief to go big or go home when drafting the qb. I don’t like taking a low risk shot with these mid round qb picks like Webb or lauletta. I won’t kill the org for doing so but I don’t love it. I’d rather take the premium qb high and live or die there.
But if they were all but convinced that lauletta was worth a long term look, have at it. Wtf do I know...