I know, I know, I know. Believe me I know.
I would ask Eli to take a paycut. Sounds harsh, but this concession will allow the Giants to field a competitive team. Reduce his hit to $10M somehow. Have Tisch fund Eli's charity or something.
Cut Vernon.
Cut Harrison (Giants are DEEP here and cheap).
Use that savings to buy one of a ORG/ORT or a OC.
Draft OL/DE/OL/DE/OL/DE
Get that OL fixed ONCE for Eli.
We will have Beal coming back to add to the DBs.
The young edge rushers will be a year older (Carter and Mcintosh). Draft more.
We will have the best RB in the league.
Give Eli time to be clutch.
Give Betcher a bunch of young fast Edge rushers to rotate.
Let's go out in a blaze of glory.
2020 - Get that QB in a rich draft, even if you have to move up to do it.
Reminiscent of after they drafted Eli, being with a rookie QB in 2020, the salary free up will allow them to go hard in FA.
Back up and running in 2021
That plan has to be in place long before the draft, and they damn well better be sure about a QB and their position to get one if they do.
People wanting to move on from Eli at all costs would deserve such a scenario. Eli released. We have Kyle and Tanney, and then are out maneuvered on draft day. But according to some, that will be great to not have Eli on the roster. Yay!
2. Manning is under contract for next year.
3. The cap hit will be higher to cut Manning and sign a journeyman QB to the roster.
What's the likely scenario?
They do not need Eli sitting on the sidelines with a $23MM cap number. It took one half of football last year for the Texans to turn to Watson. Darnold started from game 1. Mayfield in week 3. This is not 1990. Young QBs start early all the time.
You really want a veteran presence? Go sign Ryan Fitzpatrick, who has a cap hit of $3MM this year. That would give the Giants 14 million dollars to play with to upgrade the rest of the roster.
2020 - Get that QB in a rich draft, even if you have to move up to do it.
Reminiscent of after they drafted Eli, being with a rookie QB in 2020, the salary free up will allow them to go hard in FA.
Back up and running in 2021
The only good thing about this plan is that we will once again pick top 3 in 2020.
I wanted a QB because I knew we needed to plan for life after Eli like... yesterday. But I was also on board with Barkley because I thought he was the best player in the draft and felt that if Gettleman didn't LOVE any of the QB's on the board - then, so be it.
But the team still sucks and will likely have another top 3-5 pick next April. Not drafting a QB and moving on at that point would be absolutely looney.
It's over.
Arc, in full agreement if the QB is there. But drafting the wrong QB is a bigger mistake.
I can't think of a single one.
People wanting to move on from Eli at all costs would deserve such a scenario. Eli released. We have Kyle and Tanney, and then are out maneuvered on draft day. But according to some, that will be great to not have Eli on the roster. Yay!
and if this happens...what's the problem?
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2019 - Build a good OL and take a run with ELi
2020 - Get that QB in a rich draft, even if you have to move up to do it.
Reminiscent of after they drafted Eli, being with a rookie QB in 2020, the salary free up will allow them to go hard in FA.
Back up and running in 2021
The only good thing about this plan is that we will once again pick top 3 in 2020.
I disagree with this, if the Giants have a good OL, they will be competitive.
2020 - Get that QB in a rich draft, even if you have to move up to do it.
Reminiscent of after they drafted Eli, being with a rookie QB in 2020, the salary free up will allow them to go hard in FA.
Back up and running in 2021
Take a run with Eli? Sure. Get Eli a motor scooter that will run.
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
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In comment 14135335 Britt in VA said:
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1. The Giants need a veteran QB on the roster next year.
2. Manning is under contract for next year.
3. The cap hit will be higher to cut Manning and sign a journeyman QB to the roster.
What's the likely scenario?
#3 is pure bullshit. Certainly not a fact, and in all probability just false.
Is it? What's Eli's cap hit if they cut him?
What did Sam Bradford cost this year? What did Case Keenum cost this year?
Add the two together.
The Giants save $17M by cutting Eli. Any number lower than $17m is a benefit.
You picked two miserable examples (as in, widely known to be awful decisions as soon as they were made) to support what you stated as fact.
Why didn’t you pick Bridgewater? Foles? McCown? Fitzpatrick?
I wanted a QB because I knew we needed to plan for life after Eli like... yesterday.
I was locked in at drafting a QB and not because I did not like Barkley. My comments were that top franchise QBs are typically found in the top of the first round. Not that there are no busts there and not that you cant find a Russel Wilson or Tom Brady later... but history says you get the guy towards the top of the draft. We also never know when we would be back in that top position again.
Next, starting QBs last a long time and although they get injured, they rarely get an injury that ruins their effectiveness afterwards.
However, the RB position has a short shelf life. Nobody knows how long he will last or what injury is around the corner. Injuries to a RB could mean that he is no longer effective. Even losing a step changes everything. Demarco Murray was the best RB in the league and then almost overnight he was a non-factor. Just one example.
Finally, teams with a great RB can win some games but you are not going to be consistently successful without a top QB.
So, it is for these reasons why I preferred that we take our QB last year.
I can't think of a single one.
Agreed. He can't be. This plan requires some sort of cap cut.
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
So what's he making then?
So, it is for these reasons why I preferred that we take our QB last year.
Yes, last year was the year to make the move, but it didnt happen. This is not the year to do this though and to force it? Compounding the problem.
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In comment 14135351 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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2019 - Build a good OL and take a run with ELi
2020 - Get that QB in a rich draft, even if you have to move up to do it.
Reminiscent of after they drafted Eli, being with a rookie QB in 2020, the salary free up will allow them to go hard in FA.
Back up and running in 2021
The only good thing about this plan is that we will once again pick top 3 in 2020.
I disagree with this, if the Giants have a good OL, they will be competitive.
What exactly have you seen from Eli that would lead you to believe this? It's all hope and wishful thinking based on something you saw 4 years ago. It's not happening. Not only that, you can't just say..fix the OL and then it's fixed. Rookies may need time to develop. Rookies can bust. FA signings can not work out.
But that said, like last season, I'm looking strictly at the logistics and financials of the situation. I get accused of being emotional, but I'd argue the ones that are arguing to cut him just because "it's over" are the ones being emotional.
You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent. Well, however you want to prepare yourselves for this, the powers that be will still be in charge when the decisions are made for next season.
We'll see what happens.
The Giants save $17M by cutting Eli. Any number lower than $17m is a benefit.
You picked two miserable examples (as in, widely known to be awful decisions as soon as they were made) to support what you stated as fact.
Why didn’t you pick Bridgewater? Foles? McCown? Fitzpatrick?
Yeah, sign me up for the following next year...
Draft QB
Sign a guy like the four you mention above.
Keep Lauletta
Move on from Eli
The only way I would deviate from this is if Lauletta gets significant time at the end of this season and shows that he has serious potential.
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In comment 14135357 arcarsenal said:
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
So what's he making then?
It really is simple. $17M in cash earnings for 2019. It's not $18M, or $20M, and not $23M.
Eli Manning's Contract. - ( New Window )
Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team.
if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020.
If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta.
There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.
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In comment 14135363 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14135357 arcarsenal said:
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
So what's he making then?
It really is simple. $17M in cash earnings for 2019. It's not $18M, or $20M, and not $23M. Eli Manning's Contract. - ( New Window )
It says right there his cap hit next year is 23M.
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
Agreed. He can't be. This plan requires some sort of cap cut.
A cap cut will come in either 2 forms.
1. He agrees to a straight pay cut for 1 year.
2. He agrees to an extension reducing the cap hit in conjunction with his salary.
You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent.
And I think everybody that supported this thinking is shocked as to how badly it turned out.
i can play that too...
I don't care about cash earnings. I care about what he's preventing the Giants from doing with the rest of their roster.
Link - ( New Window )
Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team.
if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020.
If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta.
There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.
To your credit, this is not a bad strategy. Where I diverge with Lauletta next year is I dont think he's any good at all and the culture of losing will increase.
With a good OL, I still think Eli can be competitive. I have to also extrapolate with a good OL Saquon will be dominant.
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In comment 14135369 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14135363 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14135357 arcarsenal said:
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
So what's he making then?
It really is simple. $17M in cash earnings for 2019. It's not $18M, or $20M, and not $23M. Eli Manning's Contract. - ( New Window )
It says right there his cap hit next year is 23M.
And you know the difference between what he is paid and how his contract is accounted for against the cap. He is not making $23M next year.
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like I did last season.
You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent.
And I think everybody that supported this thinking is shocked as to how badly it turned out.
i can play that too...
What does it matter what I think or whether I am shocked? I'm not making the decisions. I'm a fan.
They aren't running the business as fans.
Crazy thing is, if Gano misses the 63 yarder, in the last three games Eli had one of the best statistical games of his career in the Texan win, would have had a vintage Eli fourth quarter comeback win in Carolina and then the Eagle loss. If Eli were to somehow light up the Falcons and get win, three of the last four games would be some of the best Eli has had in a long time.
Maybe the old guy can still play.
But that said, like last season, I'm looking strictly at the logistics and financials of the situation. I get accused of being emotional, but I'd argue the ones that are arguing to cut him just because "it's over" are the ones being emotional.
You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent. Well, however you want to prepare yourselves for this, the powers that be will still be in charge when the decisions are made for next season.
We'll see what happens.
You may not be doing it intentionally, but you’re twisting again — there are 2 ideas here: what one thinks they SHOULD do, and what one thinks they are GOING TO DO.
Nobody will argue with you that you were almost 100% dead-on-balls accurate about what they were going to do. You also seemed to think it was what they SHOULD do (correct me if wrong there).
You’re holding the fact that you were correct up against people who were adamant that they should do something different than they did.
Thing is — the results are shit. So you may have read the tea leaves correctly, but you didn’t really win the debate like you seem to think you did.
You may be reading those leaves correctly again about next year. I and many others will be even more adamant that it’s not the correct decision. We aren’t knocking you for thinking it’s likely. We’re knocking you for thinking that it resembles anything like a good idea.
He cannot get out of the way.
Our OL is not good.
Eli is going to be crushed weekly.
Every week he is going to be harassed after games by reporters.
This story(Eli is bad) will be a national story until he retire/cut/traded.
His teammates will SO incredibly tired about answering questions about Eli.
OBJ is guaranteed 60 million+ Reporters are going to ask him over and over and over. They know he will crack, they know how to crack him. You thought we had drama last year? You ain't seen nothing yet.
I do not want to see him go out like this. The most loyal of you are eventually going to turn on him. For you and him, I would like to see him retire first. He has nothing left to prove, he is only going to get hurt.
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If they honestly don't think any of these QB's are worth drafting either, then they should start Kyle Lauletta.
Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team.
if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020.
If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta.
There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.
To your credit, this is not a bad strategy. Where I diverge with Lauletta next year is I dont think he's any good at all and the culture of losing will increase.
With a good OL, I still think Eli can be competitive. I have to also extrapolate with a good OL Saquon will be dominant.
You might be 100% correct about Lauletta - but we won't know unless he plays.
I don't think we can give Eli the OL he needs as quickly as he needs it. Any plan that involves keeping Eli and trying to continue beefing up the OL is essentially swimming against a current because the more time passes, the better the OL needs to be. It's like racing against a clock we can't beat.
I'm not worried about the losing culture stuff because it's been there with Eli long enough now. There's really no difference.
Crazy thing is, if Gano misses the 63 yarder, in the last three games Eli had one of the best statistical games of his career in the Texan win, would have had a vintage Eli fourth quarter comeback win in Carolina and then the Eagle loss. If Eli were to somehow light up the Falcons and get win, three of the last four games would be some of the best Eli has had in a long time.
Maybe the old guy can still play.
I think you are correct.
-DG
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In comment 14135376 arcarsenal said:
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If they honestly don't think any of these QB's are worth drafting either, then they should start Kyle Lauletta.
Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team.
if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020.
If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta.
There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.
To your credit, this is not a bad strategy. Where I diverge with Lauletta next year is I dont think he's any good at all and the culture of losing will increase.
With a good OL, I still think Eli can be competitive. I have to also extrapolate with a good OL Saquon will be dominant.
You might be 100% correct about Lauletta - but we won't know unless he plays.
I don't think we can give Eli the OL he needs as quickly as he needs it. Any plan that involves keeping Eli and trying to continue beefing up the OL is essentially swimming against a current because the more time passes, the better the OL needs to be. It's like racing against a clock we can't beat.
I'm not worried about the losing culture stuff because it's been there with Eli long enough now. There's really no difference.
We should have an idea this year on whether or not Lauletta will play next year.
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In comment 14135375 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14135369 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14135363 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14135357 arcarsenal said:
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What is the benefit to having Eli Manning on the roster making 23M dollars next year?
I can't think of a single one.
For one - he won't be making $23M next year.
So what's he making then?
It really is simple. $17M in cash earnings for 2019. It's not $18M, or $20M, and not $23M. Eli Manning's Contract. - ( New Window )
It says right there his cap hit next year is 23M.
And you know the difference between what he is paid and how his contract is accounted for against the cap. He is not making $23M next year.
I have no idea what you're trying to argue or why you always get so hung up on this -
Eli Manning's cap hit is 23M next year. It's literally right there.
That's the number that matters. Not his cash earnings.
I think it was obvious what I meant.
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In comment 14135385 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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In comment 14135376 arcarsenal said:
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If they honestly don't think any of these QB's are worth drafting either, then they should start Kyle Lauletta.
Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team.
if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020.
If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta.
There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.
To your credit, this is not a bad strategy. Where I diverge with Lauletta next year is I dont think he's any good at all and the culture of losing will increase.
With a good OL, I still think Eli can be competitive. I have to also extrapolate with a good OL Saquon will be dominant.
You might be 100% correct about Lauletta - but we won't know unless he plays.
I don't think we can give Eli the OL he needs as quickly as he needs it. Any plan that involves keeping Eli and trying to continue beefing up the OL is essentially swimming against a current because the more time passes, the better the OL needs to be. It's like racing against a clock we can't beat.
I'm not worried about the losing culture stuff because it's been there with Eli long enough now. There's really no difference.
We should have an idea this year on whether or not Lauletta will play next year.
We SHOULD...but as of now, he's still running with the scout team, so. Who the hell knows.
Let's look at whats best moving forward?
Drafting into a weak QB class?
Or drafting into the strength of it in OL and DE, making one more run with Eli and head into a stronger QB class in 2020?
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like I did last season. Plus, a lot can change. Eli could get injured for all I know and hang it up.
But that said, like last season, I'm looking strictly at the logistics and financials of the situation. I get accused of being emotional, but I'd argue the ones that are arguing to cut him just because "it's over" are the ones being emotional.
You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent. Well, however you want to prepare yourselves for this, the powers that be will still be in charge when the decisions are made for next season.
We'll see what happens.
You may not be doing it intentionally, but you’re twisting again — there are 2 ideas here: what one thinks they SHOULD do, and what one thinks they are GOING TO DO.
Nobody will argue with you that you were almost 100% dead-on-balls accurate about what they were going to do. You also seemed to think it was what they SHOULD do (correct me if wrong there).
You’re holding the fact that you were correct up against people who were adamant that they should do something different than they did.
Thing is — the results are shit. So you may have read the tea leaves correctly, but you didn’t really win the debate like you seem to think you did.
You may be reading those leaves correctly again about next year. I and many others will be even more adamant that it’s not the correct decision. We aren’t knocking you for thinking it’s likely. We’re knocking you for thinking that it resembles anything like a good idea.
And you're leaving out the fact that last year I said I would be fine taking a QB in round one.
You're also leaving out that I advocated heavily for drafting Kyle Lauletta.
I'm getting painted as wanting to keep Eli on at all costs as some sort of apologist or thinking he was going to play another decade. I never said that last year, and said I would support the franchise if they took a QB round one. Here's an actual post from last year of mine from November.
Britt in VA : 11/26/2017 8:17 pm : link
Here's how it's going to go.
Eli's replacement is drafted in Round 1 this year IF, and this is a big IF, they are in position to draft somebody they covet.
Davis Webb and new Quarterback duel it out for #2 in camp.
Eli starts the season, and depending on how it goes, he continues to play if they're winning or contributing.
One of two things happen, the Giants have a successful season which results in Eli starting the following season in his final year in his deal and whatever happens happens? Or they struggle and the new coach decides mid season that it's time to make the transition and they do it, ala Warner to Eli.
I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, but here's what's NOT going to happen:
Davis Webb will not start any game this season. His best case scenario is to be elevated to number 2 and come in the 2nd half of games to get some time.
Eli will not be cut or traded in the offseason.
Eli will not be a pay cut. I could see him restructuring if he works out an agreement that he will be allowed to play out his contract and retire gracefully, but who knows....
That's the same level of reasoning I'm posting with now.
Let's look at whats best moving forward?
Drafting into a weak QB class?
Or drafting into the strength of it in OL and DE, making one more run with Eli and head into a stronger QB class in 2020?
Jim, the problem is that the "one more run" mentality is how we got here in the first place.
We'd be basically quadrupling down on the same mistake we've already made.
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We had that golden opportunity and drafted Saquon. Saquon is pretty darn good.
Let's look at whats best moving forward?
Drafting into a weak QB class?
Or drafting into the strength of it in OL and DE, making one more run with Eli and head into a stronger QB class in 2020?
Jim, the problem is that the "one more run" mentality is how we got here in the first place.
We'd be basically quadrupling down on the same mistake we've already made.
I hear you man. I just think forcing a QB here is quintippling the mistake. I was all in on moving on from Eli last year. I just dont see the quality this year.
Paying any QB 10-20M to be a stop gap option is a mistake regardless of the QB. Eli, through no fault of his own, brings baggage and outside attention that this team doesn't need if they want to move forward as a franchise.
He's due to make $22 million next year, barring a restructure.
Cutting him would result in a dead cap hit of 12.5 million.
They're not just going to throw a rookie out there, or Davis Webb, week 1. So they're going to need a veteran QB on the roster, agreed? Look around the league.... Look at the QB's making around 10 million per year (the difference between Manning's dead cap hit and actual cap hit).
Mike Glennon, Chicago, $14 million
Jay Cutler, Miami, $10 million
Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo, $9.7 million
Jameis Winston, Tampa Bay, $6.9 million
Marcus Mariota, Tennessee, $6.6 million
Blake Bortles, Jacksonville, $6.57 million
Josh McCown, N.Y. Jets, $6.5 million
So what's a better value to you to start next year?
Eli Manning at 22 million?
Or one of the above guys as 12.5 million (dead money) plus their salary?
Either way, you're going to have about 20 million in cap space allotted to the QB position.
It's a no brainer.
Paying any QB 10-20M to be a stop gap option is a mistake regardless of the QB. Eli, through no fault of his own, brings baggage and outside attention that this team doesn't need if they want to move forward as a franchise.
Aces, if they can change his CAP hit to 10M with no further penalty, he is a great value then. Eli at 10M with a good OL and a dominant Barkley will be worth watching. Then go get that QB in 2020 like the Eagles did with Wentz.
You absolutely fucking nailed it as to what they’d do.
Doesn’t make it a good choice. Results to this point would say it wasn’t.
Doesn’t make holding on to Eli past 3/1/19 a remotely good suggestion.