I think the Giants should go all in on Eli next year

and then draft Tua in 2020, thats the right plan.

In comment 14135407 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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In comment 14135402 arcarsenal said: Quote: In comment 14135400 Jim in Forest Hills said: Quote: I hear you man. I just think forcing a QB here is quintippling the mistake. I was all in on moving on from Eli last year. I just dont see the quality this year.

I get what you are saying, but none of us know how the scouts feel about the QBs coming out this year. I was one of the posters arguing we had to take a QB last year because the class this year sucks, but now we are hearing that Herbert could be as good or better than last years prospects. If they do not have conviction, fine, then go OL/ER, but get Eli out of here and start Lauletta. They cannot continue down this path any longer.

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Reduce his hit to $10M somehow. Have Tisch fund Eli's charity or something.

Is no one going to mention that the poster is suggesting straight up salary cap fraud? You do realize that this would result in us losing draft picks, right?

And that doesn't even address how stupid the rest of the post was

If he starts the rest of the year, he will have a couple of good games. It is not that hard to complete passes that go less than 10 yards in the air. With our playmakers, sometimes they will turn into long touchdowns. That will not be proof he can still play, it is just the odds leveling out. If he can string multiple good performances together and we win games against teams playing for something, I will be the first to capitulate. I want it for him, it would be great. I think it far more likely the rest of the season hurts him emotionally and physically. That streak doesn't happen without injury, the courageous motherfucker played through shit that sideline most people for weeks and that is coming back to haunt him now. He wants to put the ball somewhere and he is a half a second late from the time he decides to do to it, to when it gets to the receiver's hands. It isn't arm strength, it is years of taking beatings and playing through them. Management has failed him for years. It isn't his fault.

In comment 14135418 bigbluehoya said:

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We’re in circles here. You’re posting evidence of what I’ve already absolutely afforded you. You absolutely fucking nailed it as to what they’d do. Doesn’t make it a good choice. Results to this point would say it wasn’t. Doesn’t make holding on to Eli past 3/1/19 a remotely good suggestion.

All I'm saying is that I think this year is like last year, and I think their business decision will be the exact same as last year.

It has nothing to do with what I think they SHOULD do. It's what I think will happen based on the information available.

In this plan Eli is lowering his cap hit and becomes a great value. Teams are paying Sam Bradford and Mckown 20M - 15M. IF Eli agrees (who knows) then him at 10M allows for a large ticket FA OL acquisition.

First, Eli would have to agree to it and I don't recall any Manning leaving money on the table. Second, I think 10M is too much for a stop gap that is unlikely to see the bye week. I understand teams do it but teams do a lot of stupid shit.

If we're deadset on a "veteran", even if Lauletta is technically a veteran next year, aim lower than Eli at a more efficient cap number. There are bottom of the barrel guys that can get their ass kicked at 2-3M/yr if we're just looking to buy a few weeks for a rookie.

In comment 14135424 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14135418 bigbluehoya said: Quote: We’re in circles here. You’re posting evidence of what I’ve already absolutely afforded you. You absolutely fucking nailed it as to what they’d do. Doesn’t make it a good choice. Results to this point would say it wasn’t. Doesn’t make holding on to Eli past 3/1/19 a remotely good suggestion. All I'm saying is that I think this year is like last year, and I think their business decision will be the exact same as last year. It has nothing to do with what I think they SHOULD do. It's what I think will happen based on the information available.

Fair enough. Your recent record on that front is good.

You should understand - in the absence of you sharing what you think they SHOULD do, posters here are naturally going to conflate your predictions to be your recommendations.

In comment 14135427 AcesUp said:

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First, Eli would have to agree to it and I don't recall any Manning leaving money on the table. Second, I think 10M is too much for a stop gap that is unlikely to see the bye week. I understand teams do it but teams do a lot of stupid shit. If we're deadset on a "veteran", even if Lauletta is technically a veteran next year, aim lower than Eli at a more efficient cap number. There are bottom of the barrel guys that can get their ass kicked at 2-3M/yr if we're just looking to buy a few weeks for a rookie.

Aces - yup, if he doesn't it doesn't work. Then bye bye.

But I want to win next year.

In comment 14135426 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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In this plan Eli is lowering his cap hit and becomes a great value. Teams are paying Sam Bradford and Mckown 20M - 15M. IF Eli agrees (who knows) then him at 10M allows for a large ticket FA OL acquisition.

Why would Eli agree to a pay cut? It is not going to happen.

In comment 14135419 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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and then draft Tua in 2020, thats the right plan.

As long as you know that likely they would be sacrificing 2019, are fans willing to go through another awful season with Eli at QB? I know I'm not and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Alternatively, they may squeak out a 6 win season and put themselves out of a draft position for an elite QB in 2020. That's a worst case scenario.

I'd rather go 3-13 with Lauletta then go yet another year of mediocre to terrible offensive football with Eli.

In comment 14135432 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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In comment 14135427 AcesUp said: Quote: First, Eli would have to agree to it and I don't recall any Manning leaving money on the table. Second, I think 10M is too much for a stop gap that is unlikely to see the bye week. I understand teams do it but teams do a lot of stupid shit. If we're deadset on a "veteran", even if Lauletta is technically a veteran next year, aim lower than Eli at a more efficient cap number. There are bottom of the barrel guys that can get their ass kicked at 2-3M/yr if we're just looking to buy a few weeks for a rookie. Aces - yup, if he doesn't it doesn't work. Then bye bye. But I want to win next year.

Eli isn't that guy anymore. Even if I'm wrong and he still has some magic, we're definitely not close enough to tap into it in 2019.

In comment 14135433 NYG07 said:

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In comment 14135426 Jim in Forest Hills said: Quote: In this plan Eli is lowering his cap hit and becomes a great value. Teams are paying Sam Bradford and Mckown 20M - 15M. IF Eli agrees (who knows) then him at 10M allows for a large ticket FA OL acquisition. Why would Eli agree to a pay cut? It is not going to happen.

Yes, agreed this is the fly in the ointment. If he wants any shot at winning, this is it. If not, I roll with arc's plan above.

Eli's cap hit next year is $23m
His dead money is $6m
This leaves the Giants with a $17m cap savings
This is the first year of the contract that they are in the positive and can just cut him.
I'm typing like Bluesbreaker
Anyway the team needs to continue
takins it's medicine
and get out from these bad contracts
Eli, Vernon, Jenkins and Snacks

I love Eli but he needs to retire

In comment 14135424 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14135418 bigbluehoya said: Quote: We’re in circles here. You’re posting evidence of what I’ve already absolutely afforded you. You absolutely fucking nailed it as to what they’d do. Doesn’t make it a good choice. Results to this point would say it wasn’t. Doesn’t make holding on to Eli past 3/1/19 a remotely good suggestion. All I'm saying is that I think this year is like last year, and I think their business decision will be the exact same as last year. It has nothing to do with what I think they SHOULD do. It's what I think will happen based on the information available.

This the big disconnect people have with Britt. Britt is often talking about what he thinks will happen, he might not agree with it, but he thinks that is what WILL transpire, right or wrong. Most of the rest of us are talking about about what we think SHOULD happen. In many cases both people are right, we are just arguing different points and frustrating one another.

That you had the balls to post this given the mood around here has increased my respect for you exponentially.

The content of your post(s) can be rationally debated, but that your conviction was laid out there as it has been, I say, much kudos to you.

His wife wouldn't be able to decorate that house he bought her in the Hamptons

In comment 14135445 Big Blue '56 said:

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That you had the balls to post this given the mood around here has increased my respect for you exponentially. The content of your post(s) can be rationally debated, but that your conviction was laid out there as it has been, I say, much kudos to you.

Haha Fiddy, this really stems from my POV that this year is not the year to draft a QB and compound the bad. So what to do from there?

In comment 14135431 bigbluehoya said:

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In comment 14135424 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14135418 bigbluehoya said: Quote: We’re in circles here. You’re posting evidence of what I’ve already absolutely afforded you. You absolutely fucking nailed it as to what they’d do. Doesn’t make it a good choice. Results to this point would say it wasn’t. Doesn’t make holding on to Eli past 3/1/19 a remotely good suggestion. All I'm saying is that I think this year is like last year, and I think their business decision will be the exact same as last year. It has nothing to do with what I think they SHOULD do. It's what I think will happen based on the information available. Fair enough. Your recent record on that front is good. You should understand - in the absence of you sharing what you think they SHOULD do, posters here are naturally going to conflate your predictions to be your recommendations.

Should do is subjective. I try to see merit in what they will or did do, and try to look at it from both sides in order to stay hopeful. For instance, I could see the thought process of sticking with Eli last year and drafting Saquon. I could also, as illustrated by my posting, see the thought process of drafting his replacement while we were sitting at 2 and beginning that transition.

Ultimately, I want the Giants to be successful. I think it's apparent, at least to me now, that this is a bigger rebuild than I anticipated last year, and we are further away. I just want them to win. I think regardless of whether it was Saquon right now, or Darnold right now, the results of this season were probably going to be similar. My eyes are open to that now. The roster was dreadful. We are further away than I thought.

However, Barkley is looking legit and worthy of the 2nd round pick. I'm glad we hit on that and look forward to the future with him, regardless of who the QB is.

the reality of the situation is that nobody has any idea whether any of these QB's are worthy of a top pick on 10/19. It's nuts to suggest that any list is finalized at this point. I think this thread would have made more sense if you said....what if none of these QB's are worth a top pick, then what?

1. Snacks absolutely has to stay. Without him stopping the run, we are bottom feeders on defense again. We may be deep and cheap but he is the best run stopper in the league.

2. If you step back and really look at your plan, it is a win now plan. If we dont win, then we just delayed our true rebuild and possibly could be sitting without a franchise QB after Eli retires.

in your opinion otherwise i kind of feel that you're just posting not to be wrong.

Like it matters to have all the fallbacks listed out for some reason...

In comment 14135432 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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But I want to win next year.

1. How are we winning next year with Eli?
2. If we win, how are we drafting Tua in that years draft?

In comment 14135456 Keith said:

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the reality of the situation is that nobody has any idea whether any of these QB's are worthy of a top pick on 10/19. It's nuts to suggest that any list is finalized at this point. I think this thread would have made more sense if you said....what if none of these QB's are worth a top pick, then what?

This is fair. Its premature and the hype for QBs will no doubt get louder as the draft approaches. Out of the top guys, Herbert, Lock, Stidham and Grier, all look like 2nd tier players outside of Herbert.

Herbert as much as I like his physical gifts, something about him doesnt smell right yet. But its early for sure.

.

.

In comment 14135461 Jimmy Googs said:

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in your opinion otherwise i kind of feel that you're just posting not to be wrong. Like it matters to have all the fallbacks listed out for some reason...

WTF?

I have said with absolute conviction THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN. THIS IS WHAT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

It's not about fallbacks, it's about trying to remain optimistic and not be miserable.

For instance, many chose to be miserable throughout the entire offseason because we passed on Darnold. I chose to look at the optimistic side.

Now we're all miserable. But at last being optimistic kept me going through the offseason.

I will be optimistic again next year, as well, and try to see the good in what they do.

Because if not, what's the point? Sports are supposed to be entertaining.

Not dread it.

In comment 14135460 EricJ said:

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1. Snacks absolutely has to stay. Without him stopping the run, we are bottom feeders on defense again. We may be deep and cheap but he is the best run stopper in the league. 2. If you step back and really look at your plan, it is a win now plan. If we dont win, then we just delayed our true rebuild and possibly could be sitting without a franchise QB after Eli retires.

Ok, Snacks can stay LOL. I think Tomlinson can replace him though but ok.

Yes its Win Now! However if you buiy in with me, its trying to create a succession plan for quickly winning. Build that OL for the next QB. And pick that QB in a stacked QB class, tahts my vision.

In comment 14135461 Jimmy Googs said:

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in your opinion otherwise i kind of feel that you're just posting not to be wrong. Like it matters to have all the fallbacks listed out for some reason...

What conviction do you post with other than one hitter quitters and snide remarks?

I wouldn't cut Snacks or OV. If anything, I'd trade them. But Snacks has proven his worth in the run game (though he offers absolutely zero in the pass game) and OV has proven to be the only pass rushing threat we have (that is, when he's on the field).

Restructure? Yes. Trade? Maybe. Cut outright? No.

In comment 14135462 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 14135432 Jim in Forest Hills said: Quote: But I want to win next year. 1. How are we winning next year with Eli? 2. If we win, how are we drafting Tua in that years draft?

Fair questions. I think if DG fixes the OL with a top pick and a marquee FA, Eli can make us competitive. Think about Saquon with a good OL, they can do it!

When the 2020 draft rolls around then its time to ante up. Trade picks to get your man. It worked with Eli but we can get the right guy. And that guy will have an OL!

In comment 14135473 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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Yes its Win Now! However if you buy in with me, its trying to create a succession plan for quickly winning. Build that OL for the next QB. And pick that QB in a stacked QB class, tahts my vision.

It is kicking the can down the road. Delaying the inevitable

In comment 14135484 EricJ said:

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In comment 14135473 Jim in Forest Hills said: Quote: Yes its Win Now! However if you buy in with me, its trying to create a succession plan for quickly winning. Build that OL for the next QB. And pick that QB in a stacked QB class, tahts my vision. It is kicking the can down the road. Delaying the inevitable

I see it more as dont draft the wrong guy, draft the right guy and win in the meantime.

In comment 14135390 bigbluehoya said:

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In comment 14135373 Britt in VA said: Quote: like I did last season. Plus, a lot can change. Eli could get injured for all I know and hang it up. But that said, like last season, I'm looking strictly at the logistics and financials of the situation. I get accused of being emotional, but I'd argue the ones that are arguing to cut him just because "it's over" are the ones being emotional. You all got shocked when none of it came to fruition, and then it switched to the powers that be being incompetent. Well, however you want to prepare yourselves for this, the powers that be will still be in charge when the decisions are made for next season. We'll see what happens. You may not be doing it intentionally, but you’re twisting again — there are 2 ideas here: what one thinks they SHOULD do, and what one thinks they are GOING TO DO. Nobody will argue with you that you were almost 100% dead-on-balls accurate about what they were going to do. You also seemed to think it was what they SHOULD do (correct me if wrong there). You’re holding the fact that you were correct up against people who were adamant that they should do something different than they did. Thing is — the results are shit. So you may have read the tea leaves correctly, but you didn’t really win the debate like you seem to think you did. You may be reading those leaves correctly again about next year. I and many others will be even more adamant that it’s not the correct decision. We aren’t knocking you for thinking it’s likely. We’re knocking you for thinking that it resembles anything like a good idea.

WTF was that??

Many in BBI have to have somebody for everything that goes wrong. I never thought it could be Eli given the sorry state of the OL the last few years. Eli can not function behind a line that can’t generate some kind of consistent running and give some kind of pass protection. If the braintrust believes they can do that, I can see Eli coming back. But if they cant, then he’s gone. What I do think is possible is that he goes to another team that has the right OL and RB (Jaguars?) and I think he would have success there. I’m very curious if Couglin makes a run at him assuming they can agree on a contract and Bortles does not improve. Coughing, in the past has demonstrated an all in philosophy and Eli would fit that bill.

In comment 14135376 arcarsenal said:

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If they honestly don't think any of these QB's are worth drafting either, then they should start Kyle Lauletta. Starting Lauletta next year opens up salary space to improve other areas of the team. if Lauletta is absolutely awful, we go all in on Tagovailoa in 2020. If he plays well, we keep going with Lauletta. There is literally no benefit to continue paying Eli a large chunk of our cap dollars when we're getting below average production.

I’m really warming up to this idea. Keeping Eli next year is just bad business, makes no sense cap wise. Let Lauletta play & if it doesn’t work, we draft a QB in 2020.

In comment 14135394 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 14135389 rocco8112 said: Quote: this season. He looked putrid in the Eagle loss and the team just keeps on losing and he is QB1. Crazy thing is, if Gano misses the 63 yarder, in the last three games Eli had one of the best statistical games of his career in the Texan win, would have had a vintage Eli fourth quarter comeback win in Carolina and then the Eagle loss. If Eli were to somehow light up the Falcons and get win, three of the last four games would be some of the best Eli has had in a long time. Maybe the old guy can still play. I think you are correct. -DG

Lies.
Damn lies.
And stats.

Without me being involved

In comment 14135501 dep026 said:

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Without me being involved

We know you live in Forest Hills, Jim.

In comment 14135509 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 14135501 dep026 said: Quote: Without me being involved We know you live in Forest Hills, Jim.

Shit... busted.

but I am now at the point where I believe the majority of what ails this team is Eli.

I truly believe a change at QB would yield immediate results and I am ready to start that process now.

we have other issues to fix, for sure... and it will take a season or 2 more to get where we need to be (assuming we have the right guys at the helm), but in short, NO, I do not want another season, let alone another game with Eli at the helm.

Love what that guy did for us... will go down as one of my all time favorite Giants... believe he is a HOFer... but it is past being over for him on this team and he is actually hurting the rest of the team with his slow, poor, inconsistent play.

In comment 14135475 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14135461 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: in your opinion otherwise i kind of feel that you're just posting not to be wrong. Like it matters to have all the fallbacks listed out for some reason... What conviction do you post with other than one hitter quitters and snide remarks?

Are you f-ing kidding me...i typically put it right out there what I would do without mincing words. Just because we don't see eye to eye on Eli's value don't go down this path...

Thanks for the laugh, Jimbo.

Yikes.

In comment 14135522 LG in NYC said:

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but I am now at the point where I believe the majority of what ails this team is Eli. I truly believe a change at QB would yield immediate results and I am ready to start that process now. we have other issues to fix, for sure... and it will take a season or 2 more to get where we need to be (assuming we have the right guys at the helm), but in short, NO, I do not want another season, let alone another game with Eli at the helm. Love what that guy did for us... will go down as one of my all time favorite Giants... believe he is a HOFer... but it is past being over for him on this team and he is actually hurting the rest of the team with his slow, poor, inconsistent play.

LG, if they draft the wrong guy, Giants are screwed for a much longer time. This is a weak year to find the guy. If they have the top pick and HErbert wins the Rose Bowl in a clutch fashion and enters the draft and is a consensus #1 guy, ok. Draft him and we move on, cut Eli. We will know all of this by MArch. Lots of ifs there though.

and Hawkins both have a ton to demonstrate in terms of projection to the NFL. Big arms and played big in a few big moments, but ...

and they are picking #6 in a 1 QB draft, don't force it! 2020 is looming strong. Draft into the strength of this draft and get that OT. Draft a ER in rd 2. Setup the next QB for success while trying to win in 2019.

Opposing NFC East team's fans: Yes. Keep Eli for as long as possible, please!

That is a great strategy until you defer so long you have to force it (see E. Flowers and E. Engram)...

I agree with you on one thing. You can't take a QB just to take a QB. Most people would agree with that statement. If none of these QB's are worthy, than fine, go OL. Nothing wrong with that plan. However, irregardless of that, Eli is finished. We need to see what KL has, or draft a QB in rd2-7 and/or find a replacement in FA or trade. The one thing that is certain, IMO, Eli cannot be our QB next year.