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BBI Giants-Falcons Game Preview (step-back evaluation)

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/20/2018 1:24 pm
FYI...
Preview: New York Giants at Atlanta Falcons, October 22, 2018 - ( New Window )
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Well written  
Emil : 10/20/2018 4:19 pm : link
Eric, these types of game previews always hurt to read, but you write them so extremely well.

Now is clearly the time for truth telling and you nailed it. I think a few things have to happen for a turn around within the next 2-3 years.

1. Admit the Eli era is over and recoup the 17 mil in cap savings.

2. At the very least, find an interim solution at QB. Maybe it’s Lauletta, maybe it’s a veteran like Bridgewater. So far, I am not sold on the top QBs in college football as franchise QBs and this team has too much high level offensive talent to not have a veteran contingency plan.

3. Find the young QB Shurmur believes in and commit to him. That might be a rookie, that might be Lauletta, and it might be a veteran. The fact that Shurmur was able to get so much out of journeyman Case Keenum and so little thus far out of Eli is sadly a more damning indictment of Eli than anything witnessed in the McAdoo era.

4. WIN WIN WIN. Find ways to win games. It can be ugly, it can be lucky, it doesn’t matter. The NYG need to return to a winning culture. I understand some of you want to get the best draft pick possible, and I understand #suckfortheduck, but the culture of this organization needs to change.

5. Invest in LBs. Even if we were running a 4-3, our LBs are subpar.

6. Don’t be afraid to make big moves. Trading Beckham has been discussed, but that’s not realistic on many levels. However, trading Landon Collins should be explored if he can net a 2nd round pick. Same goes for Sterling Shepherd, who I like, but I believe this league is full of Sterling Shepherd like WRs. Also, Vernon’s contract needs to be restructured in the offseason and Jenkins probably needs to be a cap casualty.

7. Two more starters on the OL. Probably a RT and a RG or OC.

I know, easier said than done. I think Gettleman and Shurmur have until 2020 to put this team on the right track and I think they can get their if they are honest with themselves going into 2019 and play their cards smartly.
Giants need to get lucky  
WillVAB : 10/20/2018 5:15 pm : link
They don’t have enough high picks to confidently address the OL and create a pass rush. Especially so if they take a QB in round 1.

They need to strike gold on a late round/UDFA offensive lineman.
RE: Giants need to get lucky  
AcesUp : 10/20/2018 5:37 pm : link
In comment 14136845 WillVAB said:
Quote:
They don’t have enough high picks to confidently address the OL and create a pass rush. Especially so if they take a QB in round 1.

They need to strike gold on a late round/UDFA offensive lineman.


They may have to trade up in Round 1 for a QB.
Emil  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/20/2018 5:44 pm : link
Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?
RE: Emil  
.McL. : 10/20/2018 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14136872 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?


Sadly, I said it in the spring that this line is worse than last year. I was ridiculed and called a troll for it. Solder is what I expected him to be, meh. Omameh was always just a JAG, turns out he's worse. We are starting the likes of Wheeler and Flowers at RT, neither belongs on an NFL roster. Halapio and Jones were/are serviceable backups, nothing more. And they chose to trade Jones away as if the Giants had a surplus...

I know many people don't like to hear anything that analytics has to say, but those number do tell you something. And they all point to the fact that the quality of the OL correlates with wins at a higher rate than any other unit. Any individual OL is not as important as the QB, but as a unit, it is more important. QBs hand the ball off 40 - 50% of the time. OL never take a play off.

Clearly Manning is shell shocked at this point. He can't lift his eyes up off the rush to hit targets downfield. We have seen this in other players. Once is starts, it seems to be sadly irreversible. If we invest highly in a QB now, i.e. 1st round pick, the kid is going to play behind the same disaster of a line. The kid will develop the same habit of watching the rush instead of his reads. Or worse yet, the kid gets injured and physically broken. Its a real risk, esp. behind this line, which as you put it only has 1 out 5 that is truly playing well. Even if we hit on 2 linemen next year, that's only 60% of a line. When we drafted Manny we already had 80% of the line, the only piece that was added later was MacKenzie. Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, and Snee were all on the team in 2004.

I remember the dark days before Young. The Giants went from QB to QB. Never really addressing the OL. Teams that suck for long periods of time do that. They are places QBs go to die. Only once the OL starts turning around does the team follow. It happened in the early 80s with the suburbanites, and again in the mid 2000's with the Deihl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee, MacKenzie line. Mind you people wanted to run Phil Simms out of town in his first 3 seasons. Plus he injured his knee. The Giants were fortunate that Simms was a tough SOB, he recovered, and the team went back to him. Times were different and you could stick with a guy longer (even go back to him after benching him). In today's NFL, Simms would be labeled and thrown out with yesterday's trash. I don't think he would be given another serious shot after 3 years of suckitude.

The conventional wisdom we always here is run the ball and stop the run... I think the paradigm has shifted to protect the QB, and get after the QB. Right now, we can't do either of those. To rebuild this team, build from the inside out. Get the lines close, once close, then get your QB and add a piece or 2 in FA as needed.

As you said this team is in for suckitude beyond this season. If you are going to have a serious plan to rebuild, you have to embrace that fact. As you said, stockpile picks, draft well, get right with the cap. No more stupid FA expenditures until this team is much much closer to being a contender.

I said this in the spring, and was called a troll. You are more or less saying the same now, and I wholeheartedly concur. There are lots of emotional posters who want the suckitude to stop now. That's not going to happen. It won't happen next year either. This year and next year, wins are not really very important. Embrace the fact that the team is going to suck for this year, next year, and possibly longer. What's important is that pieces start getting put into place. That there is a plan there. And not just plug in a player here, and another there, and we are off to the SB. That will just have us treading water. This team needs ALOT of pieces.

Manning not Manny  
.McL. : 10/20/2018 7:19 pm : link
.
RE: Emil  
Emil : 10/20/2018 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14136872 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?


Very true. I never understood why they drafted flowers at 10. Pretty much any OL commentator worth listening to said he was a huge reach at ten. Chris Snee even had a lengthy negative review.

I’m no expert but it would seem like you can’t build an OL overnight. That by itself tells you this wasn’t going to be an instant turn around. I know all the brass said the team was going to compete, but I never believed that. Sure you can’t point to Eli and say they went all in on Eli, but when you keep one starter from the OL (and eventually end up cutting him) there was no realistic chance they would compete for a playoff spot in 2018. To me drafting Barkley was all about taking the best player in the draft who may be a hall of fame talent. I think Gettleman figured he had a generational talent on his short list and even though he knows the sand is running through the Eli Manning hourglass at an accelerated rate, he knows the next QB inherits an offense with an all pro WR, dangerous TE, and a running back who may very well be touched by the hand of God. If Gettleman can build 3/5 of an OL by 2020, the Giants next QB will inherit a team that is truely built to win.

Glass half full thoughts, but there is now doubt this was a 2-3 year project. Hopefully they all realize that now.
RE: RE: Emil  
Y.A. : 10/20/2018 8:09 pm : link
Quote:
Clearly Manning is shell shocked at this point. He can't lift his eyes up off the rush to hit targets downfield. We have seen this in other players. Once is starts, it seems to be sadly irreversible. If we invest highly in a QB now, i.e. 1st round pick, the kid is going to play behind the same disaster of a line. The kid will develop the same habit of watching the rush instead of his reads. Or worse yet, the kid gets injured and physically broken.

This.

How many current NFL QB's could win behind this line? Let's be generous and say Aaron Rodgers and maybe one or two others.

Now, what are the chances of us landing a QB of that caliber this offseason?

I also agree that Eli is shell shocked. But let's remember that the one game in which he got a semblance of protection, vs HOU, he won. Not saying his time may not be up. Am saying the OL needs to be fixed if we expect virtually ANY QB to come in here and win.

Yep, this succinctly sums up this bloody mess of a team...  
M.S. : 10/20/2018 8:10 pm : link

...Eric from BBI:

"At some point, this team is going to have to bite the bullet, maintain fiscal responsibility in free agency, accumulate draft picks by trading away players who won’t be here when the team does eventually turn it around, and accept short-term suckitude. But at least fans will see the team attempting to build for something in the future and have hope. Right now, they are just treading water and weekly becoming a doormat for other teams. Stop trading away picks; accumulate them. There is no short-term fix."

The truth hurts, but if this franchise needs ANYTHING, it is "truth."
Well  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/20/2018 9:19 pm : link
It's hard to argue with Eric's analysis

Right now -- The Giants Suck!
What about the Sam Beal debacle?  
Adam G in Big D : 10/20/2018 9:26 pm : link
Was he hurt before the supplemental draft? If he was it's another scouting failure.
What about the Dwayne Harris signing  
Adam G in Big D : 10/20/2018 10:36 pm : link
Fail.
WOW  
RobThailand : 10/21/2018 3:32 am : link
Hard to Read but all very true... Its going to be a tough next few years... I remember being a little kid rooting for Ron Johnson probably the only good player the Jints had back in the early 70's. Looks like S. Barkley will be the 2019 version of that...
WOW  
RobThailand : 10/21/2018 3:33 am : link
Hard to Read but all very true... Its going to be a tough next few years... I remember being a little kid rooting for Ron Johnson probably the only good player the Jints had back in the early 70's. Looks like S. Barkley will be the 2019 version of that...
WOW  
RobThailand : 10/21/2018 3:33 am : link
Hard to Read but all very true... Its going to be a tough next few years... I remember being a little kid rooting for Ron Johnson probably the only good player the Jints had back in the early 70's. Looks like S. Barkley will be the 2019 version of that...
I totally agree with the approach to the preview  
UberAlias : 10/21/2018 8:23 am : link
I've taken the POV from the start not to get hung up in Ws and Ls because had the look of a rebuilding year from the start.

But the one point I will make is that this is another prime time game. How many national embarrassments has this team endured over recent years? Even going back to TC years.


This organization can't afford another embarrasing blow out filled with images of Eli oh-shucks face with Odell kicking and hitting shit on the sideline. We had better see some leadership from PS --don't care about who wins but if it's another embarrassing non-competitive primetime loss to go with the two embarrassing division losses, I can tell you the coach has to go.
frustrating  
Gregorio : 10/21/2018 8:46 am : link
in the last paragraph, you say we might experience more years of 'suckitude' to be able to accumulate draft picks for basically a re-build.

What drives me nuts is I was there 1 year ago. I was willing to accept the Manning era was over, and it was time to start the re-build full force. But, by choosing to go for it one more time, put all the eggs into the Eli basket, it set this team back yet again.

On Solder, even though he has disappointed at times, I am not sold this was a bad move. Yes it cost too much. but he has been better than Flowers was at LT. Time will tell.

Who gets credit for Rosas? Is that a Reese/Mcadoo choice?


The core of the problem has not changed  
Mike from Ohio : 10/21/2018 9:38 am : link
and that is John Mara. The root cause of this problem is his misplaced loyalties and knee jerk reactions when things go wrong. This team has been clinging to mediocrity while he searches for half measures instead of solutions. Fire Coughlin but keep Reese and most of the rest of the staff. Replace Reese but do it with people who have grown up in the building. Decide it is time to start looking for Eli’s replacement and then scamper off that approach when the fans don’t like it.

And we all know what we will hear from him shortly. “We hired the right people and they will get it fixed! We are not rebuilding, we have the core guys we need to win. I hate losing and won’t stand for it! Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could still play?”

Mara did not make the poor free agent signings that have set this team back another year, but he has built the culture in which those moves were really the only option. He won’t allow the team to rebuild. He will insist they make the playoffs next year, and the problems will just linger.

The Giants have built a culture of mediocrity and I don’t see how that will change anytime soon.
RE: The core of the problem has not changed  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 10/21/2018 10:04 am : link
In comment 14137294 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
and that is John Mara. The root cause of this problem is his misplaced loyalties and knee jerk reactions when things go wrong. This team has been clinging to mediocrity while he searches for half measures instead of solutions. Fire Coughlin but keep Reese and most of the rest of the staff. Replace Reese but do it with people who have grown up in the building. Decide it is time to start looking for Eli’s replacement and then scamper off that approach when the fans don’t like it.

And we all know what we will hear from him shortly. “We hired the right people and they will get it fixed! We are not rebuilding, we have the core guys we need to win. I hate losing and won’t stand for it! Who knew Jerrel Jernigan could still play?”

Mara did not make the poor free agent signings that have set this team back another year, but he has built the culture in which those moves were really the only option. He won’t allow the team to rebuild. He will insist they make the playoffs next year, and the problems will just linger.

The Giants have built a culture of mediocrity and I don’t see how that will change anytime soon.


There was a post last week that basically outlined all the pivotal decisions Mara / leadership could have made since 2013 and they made the wrong one each time -- all in favor of extending the Eli window as a contender rather than doing a proper rebuild.

Now they are going to be forced to do a 3-year rebuild.
RE: Emil  
Joey in VA : 10/21/2018 10:27 am : link
In comment 14136872 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?
I'm sorry but $15 million over 3 years when the cap is $177 million is not MAJOR money. I hate talking about money, I really only like the game but the cap has grown wildly and 5 mill per year isn't a big deal anymore, especially for a starter. Go look at what the Niners gave Richburg and what Pugh got in Arizona. 5 years $47.5 for Richburg and Pugh got 5 years and $44.7. Pugh has a busted hand and is playing like crap and Richburg hasn't exactly lit the West Coast on fire. If you want to use PFF it's 56.5 for Richburg, 53.3 for Pugh and 51.5 for Omameh. So tell me, who is the dumb team? We got what we paid for, middling talent at a bargain price.

So, currently we are spending 2.17% of our money on guards, best for 23rd in the league. That is NOT NOT NOT major money.
RE: RE: Emil  
Larry in Pencilvania : 10/21/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14137351 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14136872 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?

I'm sorry but $15 million over 3 years when the cap is $177 million is not MAJOR money. I hate talking about money, I really only like the game but the cap has grown wildly and 5 mill per year isn't a big deal anymore, especially for a starter. Go look at what the Niners gave Richburg and what Pugh got in Arizona. 5 years $47.5 for Richburg and Pugh got 5 years and $44.7. Pugh has a busted hand and is playing like crap and Richburg hasn't exactly lit the West Coast on fire. If you want to use PFF it's 56.5 for Richburg, 53.3 for Pugh and 51.5 for Omameh. So tell me, who is the dumb team? We got what we paid for, middling talent at a bargain price.

So, currently we are spending 2.17% of our money on guards, best for 23rd in the league. That is NOT NOT NOT major money.


People used to get upset paying a tackle $5 to $6 million per



In 2006


I think times have changed in 10+plus years
RE: RE: Emil  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 1:29 pm : link
In comment 14137351 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14136872 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Among many concerns is what I pointed out regarding the OL. No one figured this would be fixed in one year, but they batted 1-of-5 this offseason...and they sank major dollars into Solder and Omameh.

Is anyone here really surprised Flowers didn't pan out?

I'm sorry but $15 million over 3 years when the cap is $177 million is not MAJOR money. I hate talking about money, I really only like the game but the cap has grown wildly and 5 mill per year isn't a big deal anymore, especially for a starter. Go look at what the Niners gave Richburg and what Pugh got in Arizona. 5 years $47.5 for Richburg and Pugh got 5 years and $44.7. Pugh has a busted hand and is playing like crap and Richburg hasn't exactly lit the West Coast on fire. If you want to use PFF it's 56.5 for Richburg, 53.3 for Pugh and 51.5 for Omameh. So tell me, who is the dumb team? We got what we paid for, middling talent at a bargain price.

So, currently we are spending 2.17% of our money on guards, best for 23rd in the league. That is NOT NOT NOT major money.


The major dollars Eric's referring to is overpaying for a less than mediocre Omameh and a mediocre Solder. That's on top of spending a high 2nd round pick on Hernandez (who at least looks like he might be the goods with some time).

It's not a matter of resource allocation at this point, it's a continued issue of not being able to average to better performance with above average pay.

But as Eric correctly pointed out - most of the people doing the scouting are the same ones who were here before Gettleman came in. When the same people are making the decisions, why are we expecting them to get any better at it?
I remember someone here calling me a pessimist..  
EricJ : 10/21/2018 1:40 pm : link
right before the season started. When it comes to the OL, I look at something simple in pre-season. Are our players dominating physically or are they getting pushed backwards. If you are not physically out matched then technique can be worked on or developed. Unfortunately, I saw some of the same things that I saw last year with the OL.

I also absolutely believe that other QBs would have a better chance of being moderately successful with this OL. We have what could be one of the worst QBs for this OL. There is nothing worse for a poor OL than to have a QB who the defense knows cannot run. They know the spot in the pocket to aim for. This is making the situation much worse.

Regarding Solder, I think the Giants had no choice. They were already criticized for not paying the guy who went to the Rams a couple of years ago. If we didn't sign Solder (we would not have known what the cost would be) and fans would have said we did not do enough. The real problem was that Reese left this offensive line so bare that we had no choice but to sign Solder.

Maybe we can say that DG had a decent draft?
Maybe - but picking 2nd overall  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 1:45 pm : link
you'd sure as hell hope you get a 'decent' draft. The rest of the FA signings were a pretty big disappointment as well.

Compounding matters is Shurmur. I'm on the fence about him - not sure how much of this mess is on him vs. the personnel. But his time in Cleveland wasn't exactly impressive, and so far here it's hard to find much positive in what he's done. There weren't exactly teams competing for his services this time around, and it's a possibility he wasn't our first choice.
It will be interesting to see how Gettleman approaches this offseason  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 1:47 pm : link
I always felt when a GM comes in during an offseason and is expected to turn things around with little or no roster assessment (basically HAS to rely on leftover evaluators) he's playing with a short deck. After a year, he'll have a much better pulse for the team if he's worth his salt IMO.

I also think he correctly identified Norwell as his number one offseason target and also that the offensive line was are biggest need. With very few premier free agents on the market, he pretty much HAD to sign Solder when Norwell was off the board. After years, of just ignoring the line completely, it was nice to see SOME sort of urgency there.

Flowers couldn't handle RT either, and Omameh was a waste but hopefully with another year we can bring in some more talent there. I expect to see urgency at that spot again.
Im really not upset about the past offseason at all yet.  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 1:54 pm : link
It was a bit of a mixed bag, sure. We could have done without Stewart, Martin, and Omameh but those aren't franchise killing signings.

I liked the Ogletree trade, Solder signing (He's overpaid and only average but we HAD to do this), and I do feel Gettlman nailed the draft (Something we haven't seen in years).

The defense overall is much better than it was last year, especially with OV back now. I expect more LB'ers/pass rushers to be added over time so all our eggs aren't in OV's basket.
RE: Maybe - but picking 2nd overall  
EricJ : 10/21/2018 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14137492 jcn56 said:
Quote:


Compounding matters is Shurmur. I'm on the fence about him - not sure how much of this mess is on him vs. the personnel. But his time in Cleveland wasn't exactly impressive, and so far here it's hard to find much positive in what he's done. There weren't exactly teams competing for his services this time around, and it's a possibility he wasn't our first choice.


Sounds like Belichik. Started in Cleveland where NFL Players and coaches go to die.

At this point, you can blame Shurmur if you dont like the play calling but had little to do with the roster.
He didn't make franchise killing moves?  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 2:08 pm : link
Just the way you want to describe your rebuild.

Trading JPP - fine, he wasn't a great fit here. Spending the money on Ogletree - and giving up picks to do it - seems like it will look like a bigger mistake after this season.
RE: He didn't make franchise killing moves?  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14137517 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Just the way you want to describe your rebuild.

Trading JPP - fine, he wasn't a great fit here. Spending the money on Ogletree - and giving up picks to do it - seems like it will look like a bigger mistake after this season.


I described that in regards to three players. Every team signs filler type guys. He clearly whiffed on those three but as I mentioned these weren't big signings. Its not a huge deal.

I think Ogletree is a good player at a position of need and was worth a 4th round compensatory pick and a 6th rounder so yeah.
If we truly move away from Eli next year  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 2:16 pm : link
AND let Landon Collins walk (I would at this point) we are going to have plenty of room to sign a few guys this offseason.

We can also free up more room from cutting somebody like JJ (Think that's also a forgone conclusion).
I see people still advocating build the line through FA  
.McL. : 10/21/2018 2:17 pm : link
Or at least a significant part of it.

However that is the same mentality that has gotten into trouble in the first place. And as an avenue for building the team, its getting worse for several reasons.

First, people have to start realizing that building a team is a 0 sum game. You have only so many cap dollars to spend, only so many draft choices. Resources are limited. To build one unit, you are focusing resources on that unit at the expense of other units. Teams cannot just go out and buy all the parts they want. Yet folks on this board constantly talk as if that is possible. It's not.

As the years have gone by, teams have gotten smarter and smarter about how they manage the cap and the players on their rosters. This involves a combination of scouting, and yes, the hated analytics. Smart teams see the trends before they become reality. They have to use the scouting to realize things like there are fewer and fewer good OL being produced in colleges. Then use analytics to realize what this is going to mean in terms of how it will affect availability of players at those positions, and what that will mean for the cost of those players. Smart teams have to carefully analyze the value brought to the team by each position. In these terms value is the position's impact on wins. Once you put toget the value and the supply you can model the cost. Smart teams stay ahead of the trends. Resigning players for friendly deals at positions where they know th cost will go up. Smart teams don't let good players at key positions hit the FA market. Smart teams are not trying to sign the key players that do hit FA because for the most part, those players are not going to be the top players. If you have a top player at a key position like anywhere on the OL, you don't let that player go. It has become more and more rare to find good talent for the OL available in FA, unless those players have major red flags... Like injuries or age.

This is why I believe it is imperative to build the OL through the draft. In FA you are going to get at best average performers, or performers with red flags, and you get them for outrageous sums of money. A smart team realizes this and tries to build through the draft. Maybe plug a specific spot with one player if the rest of the team is close.

To be a smart team takes a combination of good scouting, and good analysis. It seems to be pretty clear that the Giants scouting leaves something to be desired. It is further disheartening to see our GM so openly dismissive of analytics.
RE: RE: He didn't make franchise killing moves?  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14137528 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137517 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Just the way you want to describe your rebuild.

Trading JPP - fine, he wasn't a great fit here. Spending the money on Ogletree - and giving up picks to do it - seems like it will look like a bigger mistake after this season.



I described that in regards to three players. Every team signs filler type guys. He clearly whiffed on those three but as I mentioned these weren't big signings. Its not a huge deal.

I think Ogletree is a good player at a position of need and was worth a 4th round compensatory pick and a 6th rounder so yeah.


Unless I'm reading it wrong, we paid a 4th and a 6th for the right to pay him $10M next season.

Not a bad player, don't get me wrong - but worth $10M? I don't think so.
RE: I see people still advocating build the line through FA  
EricJ : 10/21/2018 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14137533 .McL. said:
Quote:


This is why I believe it is imperative to build the OL through the draft.


The problem we have though is we need 3-4 starters next season and you cannot get that many guys in one draft. Horrible drafts from the past result in having to fix the mess via free agency.

This off season, we are drafting a QB with the first pick. So, we could get another Hernandez type of player with our second pick. We would still need two more quality bodies.
RE: Yep, this succinctly sums up this bloody mess of a team...  
Rover : 10/21/2018 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14136963 M.S. said:
Quote:

...Eric from BBI:

"At some point, this team is going to have to bite the bullet, maintain fiscal responsibility in free agency, accumulate draft picks by trading away players who won’t be here when the team does eventually turn it around, and accept short-term suckitude. But at least fans will see the team attempting to build for something in the future and have hope. Right now, they are just treading water and weekly becoming a doormat for other teams. Stop trading away picks; accumulate them. There is no short-term fix."

The truth hurts, but if this franchise needs ANYTHING, it is "truth."

Is there any chance Eric is wrong about this and it’s not this long a process? Good lord.
Since we are down to pretty much nothing else but evaluating  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 2:31 pm : link
Im hoping we get lucky (for once) and something emerges from the Pulley, Evan Brown, Wheeler, and even Mihalik group by the time the year is out.

Pulley was terrible last year in San Diego but was playing with an injury. He was much better two years ago. If even just one of these guys can prove to be an average or better caliber player it would go a long way to improving things going into next year. I think then a high pick either for RG or RT and hopefully one more free agent signing could sure things up finally. The free agent doesn't need to be a huge dollar signing either IMO. There should be a SOMEBODY roughly journeyman or better out there we can plug a hole with for a little while.

Its a shame that by the time the line will finally get fixed Eli will be long gone. What a disaster it has been for 7 years now. Just criminal. Wow.
RE: RE: RE: He didn't make franchise killing moves?  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14137544 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137528 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 14137517 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Just the way you want to describe your rebuild.

Trading JPP - fine, he wasn't a great fit here. Spending the money on Ogletree - and giving up picks to do it - seems like it will look like a bigger mistake after this season.



I described that in regards to three players. Every team signs filler type guys. He clearly whiffed on those three but as I mentioned these weren't big signings. Its not a huge deal.

I think Ogletree is a good player at a position of need and was worth a 4th round compensatory pick and a 6th rounder so yeah.



Unless I'm reading it wrong, we paid a 4th and a 6th for the right to pay him $10M next season.

Not a bad player, don't get me wrong - but worth $10M? I don't think so.
Yes thats how trades work. You have to give something up. A comp 4th and 6th for a probowl 26 year old LB isn't really all that alarming. He is likely overpaid a bit but OV, JJ, Snacks, and Landon Collins( if he's re-signed) will all be making more than him next year.
Of course they would  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 2:39 pm : link
they're all better players than Ogletree. Vernon has been hurt, granted, but the rest are all better at their respective positions, and when Vernon is healthy he is too (while still being very overpaid relative to performance).
Landon Collins has been close to awful this year  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 2:47 pm : link
And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.

I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
RE: Landon Collins has been close to awful this year  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14137565 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.

I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.


What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.

That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.

As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.
Landon Collins was just as awful last year  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 3:00 pm : link
JJ was also bad last year. Really OV, JJ, and Collins are all living off their 2016 seasons.

Again with Ogletree, I dont know what you're watching but he hasn't been bad at all to me. He has been an improvement to the LB core. Something we've sorely needed for some time. I dont mind if he's slightly over paid. You are acting like he's some JAG out there. We moved to a 3-4 and we needed a captain of the unit. Without Ogletree that unit would be atrocious. He's been fine.
The ole agree to disagree would work here  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 3:01 pm : link
but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.

What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?

Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
RE: The ole agree to disagree would work here  
.McL. : 10/21/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 14137598 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.

What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?

Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.

I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:

Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
RE: RE: The ole agree to disagree would work here  
.McL. : 10/21/2018 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14137610 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14137598 jcn56 said:


Quote:


but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.

What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?

Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.


I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:

Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6


My take is that the signings/trades for Solder, Omameh, Stewart and Ogletree amount to next to nothing as far as the rebuild is concerned.

Replying to Rover: NO, this rebuild will not take less than a few years. This team is way too far down in the crapper.

When you realize that this is a multi-year rebuild, by the time the Giants are ready to compete again, THese players will no longer be on the team or the Giants will be able to easily move away from them.

I still people on this thread talking about getting rid of certain players to free up cap space to sign yet more FA... NOOOOO, STOP THE MADNESS!!! Any FA we sign now have to be on what I would call a now deal, front loaded contracts. No large signing bonuses, or deferred guaranteed money... Take the cap hits now while the team sucks. DON'T MORTGAGE the future for now, because there is no now. Now is a doormat team, 2019 is still a doormat team... This team CANNOT be fixed in a single offseason. Maybe not even 2!!! Embrace the suckitude and the fact that this is a multi-year rebuild. Only once our FO accepts that fact and plans appropriately will this team get better.
RE: RE: Landon Collins has been close to awful this year  
.McL. : 10/21/2018 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14137573 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137565 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.

I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.



What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.

That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.

As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.

The contract is not that big a deal, we can walk away from Ogletree any time we want without penalty. Giving up the picks, 4th and 6th looks questionable at best. Ogletree has been decidedly average. Is giving up a 4th and 6th when you are trying to rebuild worth a 3 year rental on an average starter?
It's another move that screams win now  
jcn56 : 10/21/2018 4:08 pm : link
the picks weren't the expense (although you don't give them away when you're rebuilding), the salary is.

Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.

Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.

With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.
RE: RE: The ole agree to disagree would work here  
ZGiants98 : 10/21/2018 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14137610 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14137598 jcn56 said:


Quote:


but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.

What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?

Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.


I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:

Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6


Fairly small sample not that it matters. Whats the last two years? Careers? I already know Ogletree had a down year last year but that was thought to be systematic.
How can teams assume a win  
bc4life : 10/21/2018 4:46 pm : link
when most games have been close? And have played a tough schedule
Teams struggles for the most part  
bc4life : 10/21/2018 5:06 pm : link
are due to OL. It was so bad they did what they could in one off season, and fell short - so far.

Not well led? DG - brought in Solder - he's struggling but no one predicted that. He'll settle down. Drafted Hernandez. BTW, they actually have a real Center now so stay tuned.

Defense - they aren't even playing the total scheme. Really basic version of JB's defense. Biggest issue on D is Free Safety. Need a QB back there.

RE: Leadership - he drafted a starting DL and may well have another starter in the wings w/McIntosh. Drafted Hernandez - another starter. Carter - another future starter and backup QB.

Again - Offensive line is the big problem. Tough enough learning a new scheme - whne front 5 aren't functioning well, you're going to struggle.

team has played a playoff schedule, and one division rival and has been in every game except two - despite their struggles.

Team was 3-13 last year. Best case scenario wa sfor everything to fall right and maybe get a chnace at a wild card. If you thought they were going to unseat Philly - get help.

They have a real Center now and I expect Solder to settle down to at least solid butb unspectacualr levels. They are probably either going to have to help Wheeler or he ill increase his learning curve.

Eli is not the future, still if they can shore up OLIne - I think he has enough ball in him for duration of his contract. Then they have a decision to make.
RE: It's another move that screams win now  
.McL. : 10/21/2018 7:10 pm : link
In comment 14137741 jcn56 said:
Quote:
the picks weren't the expense (although you don't give them away when you're rebuilding), the salary is.

Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.

Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.

With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.


I'm not sure why you think this can turn around so quickly. There are needs everywhere on this team. The need to replace about half of their starters. Some of those starters are at notoriously difficult positions to fill. $ OL and a QB. They are up against the cap right now, yes there is some relief next year, but nearly enough to replace half the starting lineup. Even if there was enough money there, what is the likelyhood of being able to replace 3 or 4 OL in one shot. The players the Giants need would need to be available, and the Giants would have to out compete 31 other teams for them. It has been becoming more and more rare that solid players are available in FA and the middling ones that are available extraordinarily expensive. Look at what Pugh and Richburg got... No, I can't see how this can be fixed quickly.
Not much to argue with Eric a fine assessment ..  
Bluesbreaker : 10/21/2018 8:49 pm : link
Gonna take some Cap management and some equal value
trades Its kind of pick your poison . It starts in the trenches I feel three starters on the Offensive line the
first one I would dump is Omameh probably the easiest
position to replace . so a two pick on a tackle or center
sign a RT and a guard . keep Soldier since we have nobody
to put there . First pick BPA in the trenches or a QB
then you go BPA the rest of the way . Look at who you can move right now this season is over . I think SS Collins
should be on top of the list some have mentioned Shepard another position that can be filled without giving up much we need a free safety and a CB to boot . not to mention a pass rusher and a tackling machine LB .pretty big wish list .

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