And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
RE: Landon Collins has been close to awful this year
And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.
That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.
As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.
JJ was also bad last year. Really OV, JJ, and Collins are all living off their 2016 seasons.
Again with Ogletree, I dont know what you're watching but he hasn't been bad at all to me. He has been an improvement to the LB core. Something we've sorely needed for some time. I dont mind if he's slightly over paid. You are acting like he's some JAG out there. We moved to a 3-4 and we needed a captain of the unit. Without Ogletree that unit would be atrocious. He's been fine.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
My take is that the signings/trades for Solder, Omameh, Stewart and Ogletree amount to next to nothing as far as the rebuild is concerned.
Replying to Rover: NO, this rebuild will not take less than a few years. This team is way too far down in the crapper.
When you realize that this is a multi-year rebuild, by the time the Giants are ready to compete again, THese players will no longer be on the team or the Giants will be able to easily move away from them.
I still people on this thread talking about getting rid of certain players to free up cap space to sign yet more FA... NOOOOO, STOP THE MADNESS!!! Any FA we sign now have to be on what I would call a now deal, front loaded contracts. No large signing bonuses, or deferred guaranteed money... Take the cap hits now while the team sucks. DON'T MORTGAGE the future for now, because there is no now. Now is a doormat team, 2019 is still a doormat team... This team CANNOT be fixed in a single offseason. Maybe not even 2!!! Embrace the suckitude and the fact that this is a multi-year rebuild. Only once our FO accepts that fact and plans appropriately will this team get better.
RE: RE: Landon Collins has been close to awful this year
And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.
That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.
As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.
The contract is not that big a deal, we can walk away from Ogletree any time we want without penalty. Giving up the picks, 4th and 6th looks questionable at best. Ogletree has been decidedly average. Is giving up a 4th and 6th when you are trying to rebuild worth a 3 year rental on an average starter?
the picks weren't the expense (although you don't give them away when you're rebuilding), the salary is.
Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.
Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.
With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
Fairly small sample not that it matters. Whats the last two years? Careers? I already know Ogletree had a down year last year but that was thought to be systematic.
are due to OL. It was so bad they did what they could in one off season, and fell short - so far.
Not well led? DG - brought in Solder - he's struggling but no one predicted that. He'll settle down. Drafted Hernandez. BTW, they actually have a real Center now so stay tuned.
Defense - they aren't even playing the total scheme. Really basic version of JB's defense. Biggest issue on D is Free Safety. Need a QB back there.
RE: Leadership - he drafted a starting DL and may well have another starter in the wings w/McIntosh. Drafted Hernandez - another starter. Carter - another future starter and backup QB.
Again - Offensive line is the big problem. Tough enough learning a new scheme - whne front 5 aren't functioning well, you're going to struggle.
team has played a playoff schedule, and one division rival and has been in every game except two - despite their struggles.
Team was 3-13 last year. Best case scenario wa sfor everything to fall right and maybe get a chnace at a wild card. If you thought they were going to unseat Philly - get help.
They have a real Center now and I expect Solder to settle down to at least solid butb unspectacualr levels. They are probably either going to have to help Wheeler or he ill increase his learning curve.
Eli is not the future, still if they can shore up OLIne - I think he has enough ball in him for duration of his contract. Then they have a decision to make.
the picks weren't the expense (although you don't give them away when you're rebuilding), the salary is.
Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.
Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.
With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.
I'm not sure why you think this can turn around so quickly. There are needs everywhere on this team. The need to replace about half of their starters. Some of those starters are at notoriously difficult positions to fill. $ OL and a QB. They are up against the cap right now, yes there is some relief next year, but nearly enough to replace half the starting lineup. Even if there was enough money there, what is the likelyhood of being able to replace 3 or 4 OL in one shot. The players the Giants need would need to be available, and the Giants would have to out compete 31 other teams for them. It has been becoming more and more rare that solid players are available in FA and the middling ones that are available extraordinarily expensive. Look at what Pugh and Richburg got... No, I can't see how this can be fixed quickly.
Gonna take some Cap management and some equal value
trades Its kind of pick your poison . It starts in the trenches I feel three starters on the Offensive line the
first one I would dump is Omameh probably the easiest
position to replace . so a two pick on a tackle or center
sign a RT and a guard . keep Soldier since we have nobody
to put there . First pick BPA in the trenches or a QB
then you go BPA the rest of the way . Look at who you can move right now this season is over . I think SS Collins
should be on top of the list some have mentioned Shepard another position that can be filled without giving up much we need a free safety and a CB to boot . not to mention a pass rusher and a tackling machine LB .pretty big wish list .
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.
That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.
As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.
Again with Ogletree, I dont know what you're watching but he hasn't been bad at all to me. He has been an improvement to the LB core. Something we've sorely needed for some time. I dont mind if he's slightly over paid. You are acting like he's some JAG out there. We moved to a 3-4 and we needed a captain of the unit. Without Ogletree that unit would be atrocious. He's been fine.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
Quote:
but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
My take is that the signings/trades for Solder, Omameh, Stewart and Ogletree amount to next to nothing as far as the rebuild is concerned.
Replying to Rover: NO, this rebuild will not take less than a few years. This team is way too far down in the crapper.
When you realize that this is a multi-year rebuild, by the time the Giants are ready to compete again, THese players will no longer be on the team or the Giants will be able to easily move away from them.
I still people on this thread talking about getting rid of certain players to free up cap space to sign yet more FA... NOOOOO, STOP THE MADNESS!!! Any FA we sign now have to be on what I would call a now deal, front loaded contracts. No large signing bonuses, or deferred guaranteed money... Take the cap hits now while the team sucks. DON'T MORTGAGE the future for now, because there is no now. Now is a doormat team, 2019 is still a doormat team... This team CANNOT be fixed in a single offseason. Maybe not even 2!!! Embrace the suckitude and the fact that this is a multi-year rebuild. Only once our FO accepts that fact and plans appropriately will this team get better.
Quote:
And Janoris Jenkins hasn't been anything special either. We will free up north of 10 million next year just for releasing him. OV has been an injured mess since he was signed.
I don't see anybody worth 10+ on our defense other than Snacks. All these guys have been pro-bowlers or all-pros (including Ogletree)and all of them appear to have warts. Thats all i was saying.
What you were saying is it's OK that Gettleman traded away picks to get a player who has underperformed relative to his salary, a problem you're claiming we already have with other players on the roster.
That's why I have zero faith in this crew for a rebuild. Reese and Ross made the mess. They're gone. The idea was to bring in people to clean it up and improve. Instead, we got more of the same mistakes. That will just prolong the recovery.
As for Landon Collins - he's having a down year, but he's been nowhere close to as bad as you're claiming. He's been a hell of a lot better than Ogletree thus far, that's for damn sure. Same as Snacks, and even with all the off the field bullshit, Jenkins. Vernon gets the rest of the season before he gets a grade.
The contract is not that big a deal, we can walk away from Ogletree any time we want without penalty. Giving up the picks, 4th and 6th looks questionable at best. Ogletree has been decidedly average. Is giving up a 4th and 6th when you are trying to rebuild worth a 3 year rental on an average starter?
Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.
Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.
With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.
Quote:
but let's take PFF, BBI's favorite whipping boy.
What do you think they say about Collins and Ogletree?
Without looking, I can assure you they're closer to my opinion than yours. And that's because anyone who thinks Collins has been awful (and for two years running?) is out of their mind.
I have no particular horse in this debate, but I decided to look up their 2018 grades:
Collins: 76.8
Ogletree: 51.6
Fairly small sample not that it matters. Whats the last two years? Careers? I already know Ogletree had a down year last year but that was thought to be systematic.
Not well led? DG - brought in Solder - he's struggling but no one predicted that. He'll settle down. Drafted Hernandez. BTW, they actually have a real Center now so stay tuned.
Defense - they aren't even playing the total scheme. Really basic version of JB's defense. Biggest issue on D is Free Safety. Need a QB back there.
RE: Leadership - he drafted a starting DL and may well have another starter in the wings w/McIntosh. Drafted Hernandez - another starter. Carter - another future starter and backup QB.
Again - Offensive line is the big problem. Tough enough learning a new scheme - whne front 5 aren't functioning well, you're going to struggle.
team has played a playoff schedule, and one division rival and has been in every game except two - despite their struggles.
Team was 3-13 last year. Best case scenario wa sfor everything to fall right and maybe get a chnace at a wild card. If you thought they were going to unseat Philly - get help.
They have a real Center now and I expect Solder to settle down to at least solid butb unspectacualr levels. They are probably either going to have to help Wheeler or he ill increase his learning curve.
Eli is not the future, still if they can shore up OLIne - I think he has enough ball in him for duration of his contract. Then they have a decision to make.
Much like the other money spent (and when added together, it's a sizable sum), it didn't help us win now and doesn't help us going forward. It's football limbo.
Of course, in the parity driven NFL, only Giants fans believe they should need "more than a few years" to turn things around. That's both sad and funny at the same time.
With solid leadership this could get fixed quickly. With what we have in place, I don't believe it will ever be resolved. Not until the FO changes again.
I'm not sure why you think this can turn around so quickly. There are needs everywhere on this team. The need to replace about half of their starters. Some of those starters are at notoriously difficult positions to fill. $ OL and a QB. They are up against the cap right now, yes there is some relief next year, but nearly enough to replace half the starting lineup. Even if there was enough money there, what is the likelyhood of being able to replace 3 or 4 OL in one shot. The players the Giants need would need to be available, and the Giants would have to out compete 31 other teams for them. It has been becoming more and more rare that solid players are available in FA and the middling ones that are available extraordinarily expensive. Look at what Pugh and Richburg got... No, I can't see how this can be fixed quickly.
trades Its kind of pick your poison . It starts in the trenches I feel three starters on the Offensive line the
first one I would dump is Omameh probably the easiest
position to replace . so a two pick on a tackle or center
sign a RT and a guard . keep Soldier since we have nobody
to put there . First pick BPA in the trenches or a QB
then you go BPA the rest of the way . Look at who you can move right now this season is over . I think SS Collins
should be on top of the list some have mentioned Shepard another position that can be filled without giving up much we need a free safety and a CB to boot . not to mention a pass rusher and a tackling machine LB .pretty big wish list .