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NFT: 10/21 Knicks Discussion

LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 7:33 am
Another 2 point loss, this time to a tough Boston team. It's early, but anyone who thinks this team is gonna be the worst team in the league might be disappointed. These kids are playing hard for a coach who looks like they will run through a wall for.

Fizdale: Still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. This is a development year so he's playing a lot of guys and figuring out what works and who should be here long term. His energy on the sideline is refreshing, and you see he buys into this team.

Tim Hardaway: 21 shots. 24 points. Michigan Man. His contract sucks. His shot selection sucks. He's a perfect 3rd option. He's a shitty 1st option. Some of that being because he's the last second bailout guy with 2 seconds left on the shot clock. He's getting paid a big contract when we have guys like Dotson and Trier who can do what he does, possibly better.

Frank Ntilikina: Regressed and went back to the Frank we saw last year. Hesitant on offense, not very athletic. Bottom line on him is I'm not selling on him yet. He's still young. But I'm also not buying in on him being some star in this league, or even on this team. He has a role. It's definitely not at the 3. To really assess his play, I'd like to see him start at point and let him take his lumps.

Burke: Michigan Man. He's a 6th man. Through and through.

Kevin Knox: Left the game early due to an ankle injury that looked bad. We got lucky where it's only a sprain. NBA beat reporter Shams has him out for 2-4 weeks.

Big Meech Robinson: I think he could greatly benefit from getting reps down in the G-League.

Lance Thomas: This is what, the 3rd or 4th coach who still gives LFT minutes. I don't know how I can defend that. The guy is a black hole on offense. His defense isn't exactly all world to warrant him starting or getting big minutes. He's a 15 minute a night bench player.

Noah Vonleh: Easily this years version of Kyle O'Quinn. Plays tough D, and is much more polished on offense then LFT. He should be our starting PF.

Kanter: Nothing really needs to be said more about him. It's gonna be consistent whatever discussion there is about him. Double double, not great on defense.

Again, the season is early. After 3 games the Knicks are 1-2. They have been in every single game. Times are looking up. It's unfortunate but the reality of the situation is we have two guys starting who scratch and claw to get 5 points a game in Frank and LFT. Stay the course. Make a few changes here and there.
Dunno why Trier and Baker played over Frank  
Jim in Hoboken : 10/21/2018 8:07 am : link
in the fourth. I don’t think he has the type of personality that responds to punishment, he probably responds to encouragement better. His offense may be like squeezing water from a stone, but Fiz just has to keep riding him.

Burke does too much dribbling and goes nowhere. Trier might eventually take his role.

Lance and Baker should never play, period. Vonleh should start, and Robinson backs up Kanter.

Gotta find a taker for Hardaway and Lee. Kanter too.
Celtics fan here...  
Gmaniac1 : 10/21/2018 8:12 am : link
... Knicks showed good character hanging with the C's after getting down big early. That's what you want to see in a rebuilding team... toughness and hustle no matter what. I like Fizdale as a coach in this regard...

Boston is obviously still a work in progress. Offense really isn't there yet... Kyrie has gotten off to an extremely slow start, and if it wasn't for the wunderkind Tatum the C's might be 0-3.
RE: Celtics fan here...  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 8:17 am : link
In comment 14137223 Gmaniac1 said:
Quote:
... Knicks showed good character hanging with the C's after getting down big early. That's what you want to see in a rebuilding team... toughness and hustle no matter what. I like Fizdale as a coach in this regard...

Boston is obviously still a work in progress. Offense really isn't there yet... Kyrie has gotten off to an extremely slow start, and if it wasn't for the wunderkind Tatum the C's might be 0-3.


i think celtics should see what they can get for brown and get a real shooting guard in there, brown is better suited to be a 3 in my opinion...

RE: RE: Celtics fan here...  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 8:24 am : link
In comment 14137224 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137223 Gmaniac1 said:


Quote:


... Knicks showed good character hanging with the C's after getting down big early. That's what you want to see in a rebuilding team... toughness and hustle no matter what. I like Fizdale as a coach in this regard...

Boston is obviously still a work in progress. Offense really isn't there yet... Kyrie has gotten off to an extremely slow start, and if it wasn't for the wunderkind Tatum the C's might be 0-3.



i think celtics should see what they can get for brown and get a real shooting guard in there, brown is better suited to be a 3 in my opinion...


Brown for Hardaway
Regarding Jaylen Brown...  
Gmaniac1 : 10/21/2018 8:31 am : link
... he's too valuable as a versatile defender in today's NBA to be disgardly lightly...

... his offense still has holes. He's surprisingly weak finishing at the rim if there is any defense in the way. But at the very least, he is a good 3+D guy with plus plus athleticism and still some significant upside because of that. The guy shined at times in last year's playoffs as well.

That's before we take into account Hardaway's puke contract. Puke. ;-p
I said after watching Frank  
Chris L. : 10/21/2018 8:43 am : link
for one game that he was totally unathletic and I got scolded for it. The guy is WAY below par when it comes to athleticism and this is after all the NBA which has the greatest athletes in the world. The best of those athletes usually play point guard. He will never be more than a bench player. It's one of the few bad moves in the rebuild so far. I love Knox. I love Trier. I love Robinson. Let the kids play and let's get another high lottery pick. Then sign guys who WILL want to come here. Finally the Knicks are avoiding the quick fix and are doing it right.
The thing about Frank  
Dave on the UWS : 10/21/2018 8:57 am : link
Is he will end up as a 6-6 player able to guard 3 positions. What do you do with that? He’s only 20. It may take several years for him to get even an adequate offensive game. The form on his shot is good. To be a starter, he most likely needs to be a SG play next to a shoot first PG and avg about 15 per game. His biggest issue right now is he’s too timid and hesitant at the offensive end. He’s fine on defense. Let’s see what Fiz does with him.
Frank Ntilikina  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 9:02 am : link
sigh.

The guy was drafted to be a PG. Except he's not athletic enough to be one.

They moved him to SG, except he can't really shoot or create his own shot.

Now he's at SF. Let's see how he does. My opinion, just play him at point and see what he does with the first team offense. Burke is a 6th man, IMO.
Trey Burke looks very small out there.  
GiantsUA : 10/21/2018 9:09 am : link
He competed and had some nice moments on offense, I see him as a deep bench player, not a starter, not a 6th man.

Timmy - This is his time to prove he can be a teams top option, I agree with what someone said above - #3 or #4 guy on an NBA team.

To have multiple guys with "leadership quality" and play defense out there but can't score does not work in today's game. Lance, "Rudy" Baker, Frank (who can score, but needs to be much more agressive).

Kanter - I like him, tough, plays hard passionate, good teamate  
GiantsUA : 10/21/2018 9:11 am : link
.
Encouraged  
PhilSimms15 : 10/21/2018 9:20 am : link
Knick fans have to be encouraged by how hard the team has played over the first three games and the fact that they are actually playing defense.

However, the key to this season is less about winning and more about developing Knox, Frankie Smokes, Robinson, Burke, THJ and ultimately KP.

Ideally, they would play hard all year but still end of with a top 5 draft pick.

At that point you have a very young nucleus and a handsome amount of cap space.
Franks always seemed like Ron Harper  
hitdog42 : 10/21/2018 9:22 am : link
George hill hybrid— the good versions- in positionless basketball he can still evolve to a glue guy to start on a team-

RE: I said after watching Frank  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 14137247 Chris L. said:
Quote:
for one game that he was totally unathletic and I got scolded for it. The guy is WAY below par when it comes to athleticism and this is after all the NBA which has the greatest athletes in the world. The best of those athletes usually play point guard. He will never be more than a bench player. It's one of the few bad moves in the rebuild so far. I love Knox. I love Trier. I love Robinson. Let the kids play and let's get another high lottery pick. Then sign guys who WILL want to come here. Finally the Knicks are avoiding the quick fix and are doing it right.


he is an elite defender, that keeps him in the league for at least 10 years...he doesnt have to be a point guard to still be a good pick
Frank  
BigBlueShock : 10/21/2018 9:27 am : link
You don’t become one of the elite defenders in the NBA by being “way below par when it comes to athleticism”. That’s just ridiculous. He sucks on the offensive side right now. That’s it. Nothing more. His athleticism is not the issue. I know some people thought he was not athletic enough coming into the league based on some video they watched pre draft, and want to be right in their evaluation, but it’s simply not true.
RE: Frank  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 9:44 am : link
In comment 14137287 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
You don’t become one of the elite defenders in the NBA by being “way below par when it comes to athleticism”. That’s just ridiculous. He sucks on the offensive side right now. That’s it. Nothing more. His athleticism is not the issue. I know some people thought he was not athletic enough coming into the league based on some video they watched pre draft, and want to be right in their evaluation, but it’s simply not true.


Why would anyone want to be right about Frank not being athletic enough? That's stupid. He's not athletic enough to be point guard. There's nothing wrong with saying that. And it has nothing to do with watching a pre-draft video. It has to do with the last 85 games we've seen him play as a Knick.

His offense sucks? Yeah, it does. I'll be patient, but I think he is a 3 in this league. His versatility with his defensive presence warrants him being on the court.
RE: RE: Frank  
BigBlueShock : 10/21/2018 9:53 am : link
In comment 14137298 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137287 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


You don’t become one of the elite defenders in the NBA by being “way below par when it comes to athleticism”. That’s just ridiculous. He sucks on the offensive side right now. That’s it. Nothing more. His athleticism is not the issue. I know some people thought he was not athletic enough coming into the league based on some video they watched pre draft, and want to be right in their evaluation, but it’s simply not true.



Why would anyone want to be right about Frank not being athletic enough? That's stupid. He's not athletic enough to be point guard. There's nothing wrong with saying that. And it has nothing to do with watching a pre-draft video. It has to do with the last 85 games we've seen him play as a Knick.

His offense sucks? Yeah, it does. I'll be patient, but I think he is a 3 in this league. His versatility with his defensive presence warrants him being on the court.

He can guard any PG in the league. And he can guard several other positions. You can’t do that while being unathletic. The reason he’s no a PG is his offensive game and that has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism. His handle sucks and he’s not very good at creating off the dribble. Not being a good offensive PG doesn’t always have to be because of athleticism. He proves just how athletic he is on the defensive end. There are tons of players in the NBA that you would say are elite athletically but would be disasters playing PG. it’s not because of their athleticism...
As far as your question  
BigBlueShock : 10/21/2018 9:56 am : link
Asking why people would want to be right regarding Franks athleticism, you cannot be serious. Have you been reading BBI? Look no further than the 60000 Barkley/Darnold threads. People desperately want to be right. I guess it makes them feel better about themselves? Who knows, I find it odd too, but it’s 100% a thing...
Will watch later, but followed on phone.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/21/2018 10:03 am : link
Gutsy effort after being down big so early. Again, this is a developmental year. Let the kids play & grow.
RE: RE: RE: Frank  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 14137303 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:

He can guard any PG in the league. And he can guard several other positions. You can’t do that while being unathletic. The reason he’s no a PG is his offensive game and that has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism. His handle sucks and he’s not very good at creating off the dribble. Not being a good offensive PG doesn’t always have to be because of athleticism. He proves just how athletic he is on the defensive end. There are tons of players in the NBA that you would say are elite athletically but would be disasters playing PG. it’s not because of their athleticism...


Tatum was eating Frank up last night. Frank is a good defender and has arms that reach the floor. I've seen what he can do on the defensive end. He's not athletic enough to play PG= he's not explosive enough on the offensive end to be a PG.

He's only 20 so I'll be patient. But I don't think he's a guard in this league unless he can be some sort of 3andD specialist. Which would mean he becomes a more consistent shooter. Which he can do.
Frank and a bunch of the guys  
Phil in LA : 10/21/2018 10:16 am : link
are inconsistent right now. Frank looked excellent Friday night, then less so against the Celts, but he still had some good passes, and good plays on D. He should shoot more.
Not sure if you guys  
GMEN46 : 10/21/2018 10:17 am : link
Remember but I begged for knicks to take Mitchell over Frank....haha...all kidding aside I’m not giving up on frank bEcause he is so young, but we said the following from day one, you can’t teach athleticism and you don’t become a great ball handler as you get older. Ball handling is learned at a young age. Sure it get a little better but he will never have a great handle, it’s too robotic. Shooting can certainly improve with repetition and I agree the form is good, a little long but good. If he can become a 12-5-5 guy playing some pg/Sg/sf with elite defense than it will be a key piece on the team down the road. I didn’t understand why he wasn’t in guarding Kyrie at the end of that game.

Also Robinson should not be on the floor at the end of games. He needs to go to d league and he needs to hit the weight room badly. His hands are weak and appears to have weak ankles.

Love how hard they play and while I agree if they play that hard every night then they certainly will I’ll win more games than expected. However if your losing all of these games the it will start to get to them mentally and they will not play thatbhard.

I understand Thomas is a good guy and a good teammate, but that does not mean he should be a player on an nba team. Hire him as an asdisnt coach.he should not play a single minute in any of these games. I’m assuming once they are losing consistently he will see the bench permanently.
This year serves three purposes  
Earl the goat : 10/21/2018 10:24 am : link
1. To get the young guys minutes but to tank and get a high lottery pick
2. Trade Lee and Kanter and hopefully get something of value back
3. Getting KP back at 110%
people need to stop with the trade kanter  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 10:27 am : link
knicks will do everything they can to keep him, most likely will trade lee so they have the extra 12 to give to him along with a max guy...

he loves new york, double double machine, his defense has gotten better, nothing great but passable, the knicks are not going to just trade him away
At what point  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 10:27 am : link
do we stop with the trading Lee and Kanter? It's not that easy. Yeah, it would be ideal. But no one is taking on their contracts.
RE: people need to stop with the trade kanter  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/21/2018 10:28 am : link
In comment 14137348 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
knicks will do everything they can to keep him, most likely will trade lee so they have the extra 12 to give to him along with a max guy...

he loves new york, double double machine, his defense has gotten better, nothing great but passable, the knicks are not going to just trade him away


I like Kanter. If he can take somewhat of a discount to stay in NY, I'm all in on bringing him back. He's our entire offense right now and is a walking double double.
.  
Anakim : 10/21/2018 10:30 am : link
Clarence Gaines
@ClarenceGaines2

If you're a @nyknicks fan & wondering why @mariohezonja couldn't EARN court time vs @celtics with @KevKnox going down it's because he's a huge liability as an individual defender. He couldn't match the toughness or athleticism of the C's wings. Love how @wholeteamDot competed.
This is the best case scenario  
Shecky : 10/21/2018 10:36 am : link
Team plays hard and competitive, but losses add up for the draft positioning.
RE: This is the best case scenario  
PhiPsi125 : 10/21/2018 11:13 am : link
In comment 14137359 Shecky said:
Quote:
Team plays hard and competitive, but losses add up for the draft positioning.


Absolutely. Your post sums up the most ideal scenario. And one that I’m also hoping for.

However, I’m also a fan and love seeing the team win. Especially a young team playing hard. I can’t get around that. Not in my DNA.

But what will always piss me off are referees that impact the outcome of the game due to their ineptitude. Yes, every team gets questionable calls. But that’s a weak argument. It’s a lot easier to overcome a BS call in the second quarter than it is to overcome a BS call (or two) in the final 90 seconds. And that happened in two consecutive games.

Yes, good for the draft pick by it’s also what I despise about basketball.
eventually they will start winning those games  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 11:18 am : link
IF fizdale can still get these guys to play that hard even with a lot of losses...

thought it was interesting  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 11:18 am : link
irving said fizdale was a big reason why he considered the knicks
Have to laugh  
XBRONX : 10/21/2018 11:31 am : link
at people who knock Burke. What game did you watch? 9 assists and one turnover. He was dribbling around? Wow
oh and is there any doubt  
nygiants16 : 10/21/2018 12:24 pm : link
jeanie buss opened her mouth and ripped the knicks because she knows the knicks are the lakers biggest obstacle to aigning durant?

THJR is clearly a good signing  
Vanzetti : 10/21/2018 2:06 pm : link
Knicks gambled that the improvement he showed his last year with Hawks would continue and it has.

He will never be a complete playe. He will never be at top 5 shooting guard in the league. But at 18 million he is a relative bargain.

RE: .  
Vanzetti : 10/21/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14137357 Anakim said:
Quote:
Clarence Gaines
@ClarenceGaines2

If you're a @nyknicks fan & wondering why @mariohezonja couldn't EARN court time vs @celtics with @KevKnox going down it's because he's a huge liability as an individual defender. He couldn't match the toughness or athleticism of the C's wings. Love how @wholeteamDot competed.


Hezonja stinks. Good gamble bringing him in along with the other former lottery picks. Maybe one or two of them lives up to their draft spot. But it won't be Hezonja.
One of the things I don’t see brought up here  
Dave on the UWS : 10/21/2018 2:44 pm : link
is roster building. Yes the NBA is about stars. If they are lucky they may have two in KP and Knox. Add a lottery pick this year and a max FA. and they have their front liners. You need a bench too to win a championship. It would be great if some of these guys like Vonleh could develop into part of that solution.
You guys got lucky  
idiotsavant : 10/21/2018 3:14 pm : link
Vonleh seems like an old school Ewing era Knick, in the good way, tough minded, good feeling about that player.

And trier has talent. Lucky pick.

Obviously you try to keep Kantor.
Glad Knox's injury is relatively minor  
bceagle05 : 10/21/2018 3:59 pm : link
but it still sucks - he's by far the most important guy to develop. Dotson got most of Knox's minutes last night - hope that continues.
Vonleh  
RAIN : 10/21/2018 4:02 pm : link
was a steal. He's O'quinn + imo.

Trier was another great find. He was pretty crappy at Arizona, selfish, etc.. but he's remade his body and his ball handling has come a long way.

Frank is 20, he thinks way too much with the ball in his hands, his hesitation is what kills him. He's athletic, but not in the twitched up, get to the Rim type. His ball handling needs to improve. He's a work in progress, his shooting seems like its improved as he can knock down the open three. He's a combo guard, that is a year away from really taking a leap imo (hopefully). He needs to get at least 25 min a night. I believe he will sneak up on us and be something really great in few years, but his skill set will be distributed across offense and defense.

Burke, agreed that he's a perfect sixth man.

MRob, needs some G league.

The team is fun to watch, and they will lose. It's early yet, but Fiz seems like a great fit early on.


RE: Glad Knox's injury is relatively minor  
Jim in Fairfax : 10/21/2018 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14137718 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
but it still sucks - he's by far the most important guy to develop. Dotson got most of Knox's minutes last night - hope that continues.

These guys can’t play 80 games coming out of college anyway. Going from a 30 game season playing twice a week to a 80 game season playing 3-4 times a week is a huge leap. They all hit a wall.
It's great to see the young knicks  
idiotsavant : 10/21/2018 4:22 pm : link
Developing together, moving the ball, blocking shots, running.

That's a really fun aspect of this team right now.
RE: RE: Celtics fan here...  
chopperhatch : 10/21/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14137224 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14137223 Gmaniac1 said:


Quote:


... Knicks showed good character hanging with the C's after getting down big early. That's what you want to see in a rebuilding team... toughness and hustle no matter what. I like Fizdale as a coach in this regard...

Boston is obviously still a work in progress. Offense really isn't there yet... Kyrie has gotten off to an extremely slow start, and if it wasn't for the wunderkind Tatum the C's might be 0-3.



i think celtics should see what they can get for brown and get a real shooting guard in there, brown is better suited to be a 3 in my opinion...



Jayson Tatum is not a 2? Hes got to be. Last night, Brown started as the 4.

Tatum is the 2 guard. Hayward is the the 3.
Stevens and the Celtics...  
Gmaniac1 : 10/21/2018 5:16 pm : link
... have embraced "positionless" basketball to a great extent...

Guys like Hayward, Tatum and Brown are largely interchangeable in their starting line-up... and there are a lot of guys on their bench that fit that same mold.
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