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The QB Sneak and the 2 time Super Bowl MVP QB

djstat : 10/23/2018 10:36 am
I am an Eli fan. I supported the decision to bring him back this year. Mostly because I am not a believer in any of the rookie QB's.

Last night, despite how ugly this game was, despite how awful our O Line looked, we had a chance to potentially make a huge comeback, even after the questionable two point conversion.

With the ball on the goal line, Eli Manning, a 15 year veteran QB, a two time Super Bowl MVP and a supposed HOF QB, lined up under center and on two consecutive downs tried a QB sneak to squeeze in a TD. With no time outs, this play wastes a ton of time as it creates a pile.

Some will claim, the coach called the play. That may be, but am I supposed to believe that Eli Manning does not have the authority to change that call at the LOS when then team had been in a two minute drill?

Worse, is Eli not a strong enough leader to call what he felt was best? Did Eli think, him running a sneak was a good idea?

Even with the TD and a minute left, the odds of recovering an onside kick are slim so it may have been a moot point, but we never will know.

Shurmer is not a head coach. He is a good Offensive Coordinator but he is not a head coach.

Eli had the ability to change plays throughout his entire career  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 10:41 am : link
before McAdoo. How many QB sneaks have you seen Eli Manning run in his 14 year career.

Now you think he called two, back to back?
RE: Eli had the ability to change plays throughout his entire career  
BillKo : 10/23/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 14143106 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
before McAdoo. How many QB sneaks have you seen Eli Manning run in his 14 year career.

Now you think he called two, back to back?


Yep....and with SB in the backfield.

That's the coach.

And it's the wrong call(s).
If only our goal-line back Jonathan Stewart  
Jimmy Googs : 10/23/2018 10:43 am : link
didn't go on the IR...
You run  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 10/23/2018 10:44 am : link
what the coach tells you to run. End of story.
RE: You run  
chuckydee9 : 10/23/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
what the coach tells you to run. End of story.


Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..
RE: If only our goal-line back Jonathan Stewart  
Dave in PA : 10/23/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 14143120 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
didn't go on the IR...
hopefully J-Stew will be back next year so we don’t falter in the same spot again...
RE: RE: You run  
larryflower37 : 10/23/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..


Shurmer said in his press conference he called it and the team needs to execute.
"Manning has made them before and those calls gave them the best chance to win"
Now he could be covering for Eli but Eli has never called a sneak before this year.its Been 11 years up until this year.
You pass on those plays and stop the clock.
Piss poor playing calling in the heat of the game.
No excuses
The head coach  
BBelle21 : 10/23/2018 11:32 am : link
Calls those plays and it’s Eli’s fault for not disobeying his head coach? I don’t understand some of the criticism Eli receives. Why Shurmur calls a QB sneak with a center that’s been getting abused all night, no one has any clue. Well, except the head coach.
If  
Beezer : 10/23/2018 11:33 am : link
1. people believe Eli called two sneaks; or,

2. people believe Eli was going to NOT be the team guy he is and run the play that the new head coach called, even if he disagreed, even if twice; then,

either they're disingenuous, or they're idiots.
RE: RE: You run  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 10/23/2018 11:33 am : link
In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..


Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.
RE: RE: RE: You run  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 10/23/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.


If you're trying to argue that he SHOULD have the freedom to change, I agree with that. But if he doesn't, he doesn't.
You know....  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 11:35 am : link
not EVERYTHING is Eli's fault. I know that's hard for some people to wrap their head around, but it's true.

I'll be happy when he's gone for the sole reason it will be interesting watching people posting wildly like a chicken with it's head cut off running around, looking for somebody to blame.
Not sure how you can blame Eli for that  
jcn56 : 10/23/2018 11:41 am : link
He's damned if you do, damned if you don't there.

They ran the first sneak that the coach called - and based on what he saw on the field, I'm not sure what justification he would have had for audibling out, with halfway decent blocking he should have been in.

Now it gets called again - and if you audible out and it fails, it's all on you. Can't win.
RE: If  
BillKo : 10/23/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14143311 Beezer said:
Quote:
1. people believe Eli called two sneaks; or,

2. people believe Eli was going to NOT be the team guy he is and run the play that the new head coach called, even if he disagreed, even if twice; then,

either they're disingenuous, or they're idiots.


Spot on.
RE: RE: RE: You run  
chuckydee9 : 10/23/2018 11:54 am : link
In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.


That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..
Probably the most understated aspect of Eli’s shortcomings lately  
djm : 10/23/2018 11:58 am : link
Have been the line calls or audibles from Eli. He’s just failing on many levels. In between the 20s he’s fine. He still throws a good ball when everything is rosen. So does every nfl going. And His stats look good. Woopee.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You run  
montanagiant : 10/23/2018 11:58 am : link
In comment 14143389 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.



That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..

And you know this how?

Let me guess, you're pulling it out of your ass right?
The purpose of this thread certainly is intensive.  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 11:58 am : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You run  
chuckydee9 : 10/23/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14143401 montanagiant said:
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In comment 14143389 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.



That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..


And you know this how?

Let me guess, you're pulling it out of your ass right?


The last coach to bench him got fired the very next game.. Giants as a team don't do that.. there was no reason to fire him right then and there.. he was getting fired at the end of the season anyhow.. but the fans went nuts and suddenly he had to be fired right then..
It's not Eli's fault in this situation  
Rudy5757 : 10/23/2018 12:07 pm : link
Shurmur did a very poor job of coaching down the stretch. Going for the 2 point conversion is just plain stupid. There was no benefit and it is a much lower conversion % than kicking. Even if they make it it's a dumb call.

Then going for 2 straight QB sneaks just screams of a coach who has no awareness of the game. You need to stop the clock so the 1st play should have been a pass or they should have clocked it and set up a play. Bad teams find a way to lose and that's the trend here. Not saying they would have won but the coach blew the chance.

Eli did not play well, the OL WAS terrible again but coaching and play calling was the reason for the loss. The Tea are not helping the OL. That is on the coaches 7 games into the season still seeing the same mistakes. Shurmur needs to hand over the play calling to the OC so he can see what is really going on or he may be a one and done. He has been bad.
It was a no huddle play  
ron mexico : 10/23/2018 12:09 pm : link
Its pretty clear it was Eli's call


RE: It was a no huddle play  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14143437 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Its pretty clear it was Eli's call



Yeah, they have this little thing called radio in the helmets that's allowed to be on in between plays....
RE: It was a no huddle play  
ajr2456 : 10/23/2018 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14143437 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Its pretty clear it was Eli's call



This. Those plays didn’t come from the sideline. They were in clock conservation mode and in the hurry up. There’s usually a set of a few plays the QB can pick from to run.

Those were called by the QB
The odd  
Andrew in Austin : 10/23/2018 12:13 pm : link
thing to me was Shurmur's response of "He has to get it" on the sneak. WTH does that mean? Our OL sucks balls and we have no push from our center. Maybe he should have leaped over the line like Barkley.
Except both Eli and Shurmur confirmed they were called by Shurmur  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 12:14 pm : link
and Eli, despite having autonomy to call years most of his career before McAdoo, hadn't called a QB sneak in 11 years prior to this one.
Actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2018 12:14 pm : link
this would usually indicate the opposite:

Quote:
It was a no huddle play
ron mexico : 12:09 pm : link : reply
Its pretty clear it was Eli's call


Coaches usually make the playcalls in the two minute drill and because of time running down, an audible is not usual.
RE: RE: It was a no huddle play  
dep026 : 10/23/2018 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14143450 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143437 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Its pretty clear it was Eli's call





This. Those plays didn’t come from the sideline. They were in clock conservation mode and in the hurry up. There’s usually a set of a few plays the QB can pick from to run.

Those were called by the QB


Wrong. Try again.
RE: RE: It was a no huddle play  
ron mexico : 10/23/2018 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14143447 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14143437 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Its pretty clear it was Eli's call





Yeah, they have this little thing called radio in the helmets that's allowed to be on in between plays....


true but Eli needs to make that call at the LOS based on how the def is lined up

I doubt PS is making that call right before the ball is snapped


RE: RE: RE: It was a no huddle play  
ron mexico : 10/23/2018 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14143458 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143450 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143437 ron mexico said:


Quote:


Its pretty clear it was Eli's call





This. Those plays didn’t come from the sideline. They were in clock conservation mode and in the hurry up. There’s usually a set of a few plays the QB can pick from to run.

Those were called by the QB



Wrong. Try again.


lol ok
RE: RE: RE: RE: You run  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 10/23/2018 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14143389 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:

That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..


Try again. Any player at any level who goes back to the sidelines and says "yeah, I thought the call sucked so I changed it" isn't going to be playing very long. And if our coaches don't have the power to sit someone for that, then we're much worse off than anyone here could fathom.
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2018 12:18 pm : link
Quote:
This. Those plays didn’t come from the sideline. They were in clock conservation mode and in the hurry up. There’s usually a set of a few plays the QB can pick from to run.

Those were called by the QB


Plays almost always come from the sideline in the two minute drill.

Again - if Eli has a set of a few plays the QB can pick from, why would he call two sneaks - from that small set - that he's never called before??

But then again - if you are under the impression that plays are coming from the QB in the two minute drill then your overall football knowledge is poor.
Unnecessary  
Thegratefulhead : 10/23/2018 12:18 pm : link
To keep piling on Eli. ALL of so called "apologists" have said they are OK with trying someone new. There is no need for the continued abuse. It's seems as though people are addicted to trolling people that love and have loyalty to Eli. Stop already.
Shurmur is a fool  
moespree : 10/23/2018 12:20 pm : link
Whether he called it or not doesn't change that. His clock management skills are piss poor. Never did I think I'd see a coach with worse clock management skills than McAdoo. Not only was I wrong but it's actually from the guy who replaced him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You run  
montanagiant : 10/23/2018 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14143415 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14143401 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14143389 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.



That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..


And you know this how?

Let me guess, you're pulling it out of your ass right?



The last coach to bench him got fired the very next game.. Giants as a team don't do that.. there was no reason to fire him right then and there.. he was getting fired at the end of the season anyhow.. but the fans went nuts and suddenly he had to be fired right then..

You could have saved everyone time by posting:
“Yup you are correct, pulled it right out of my ass”
RE: What??  
ajr2456 : 10/23/2018 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14143465 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


This. Those plays didn’t come from the sideline. They were in clock conservation mode and in the hurry up. There’s usually a set of a few plays the QB can pick from to run.

Those were called by the QB



Plays almost always come from the sideline in the two minute drill.

Again - if Eli has a set of a few plays the QB can pick from, why would he call two sneaks - from that small set - that he's never called before??

But then again - if you are under the impression that plays are coming from the QB in the two minute drill then your overall football knowledge is poor.


Those plays come from the QB because you don’t have time to set up the line and receivers.

The first play gets called in with a set of options based on the result of the previous play.
That hasn't been true..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2018 12:40 pm : link
for the majority of the teams since there have been helmet communications.

But carry on and keep showing off the knowledge.
RE: You know....  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/23/2018 12:45 pm : link
In comment 14143319 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
not EVERYTHING is Eli's fault. I know that's hard for some people to wrap their head around, but it's true.

I'll be happy when he's gone for the sole reason it will be interesting watching people posting wildly like a chicken with it's head cut off running around, looking for somebody to blame.

Or, blasphemous as this is to you, maybe they won't have to.
RE: That hasn't been true..  
ajr2456 : 10/23/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14143566 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for the majority of the teams since there have been helmet communications.

But carry on and keep showing off the knowledge.


One of us sold analytics and data to NFL teams and were in their offices and one didn’t.

But keep up with your schtick of thinking everyone who as a differing opinion than you is a moron.
One of us..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2018 12:54 pm : link
also attends the Combine and has personal connections with coaches and assistants all over the place and the other one doesn't.

While I'm mainly more in tune with the training staffs, I've been able to get to know a lot of coaches, and be there when they are talking about coaching.

So selling a team analytics gives you insight into who is calling the plays?

Did you really play that card?

Fucking laughable.
haha, wow.  
Britt in VA : 10/23/2018 12:55 pm : link
.
I learned that  
dep026 : 10/23/2018 1:05 pm : link
ajr is a telemarketer.
RE: One of us..  
ajr2456 : 10/23/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14143697 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
also attends the Combine and has personal connections with coaches and assistants all over the place and the other one doesn't.

While I'm mainly more in tune with the training staffs, I've been able to get to know a lot of coaches, and be there when they are talking about coaching.

So selling a team analytics gives you insight into who is calling the plays?

Did you really play that card?

Fucking laughable.


I’ve also been in the room and talked to a number of countless about play calling.

Believe what you want I’ll believe what I want.
Let me guess Ajr  
montanagiant : 10/23/2018 1:18 pm : link
You’re one of those unarmed “scouts” and/or unarmed NFL “Executives” Raanan can never seem to name as a source
Even..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/23/2018 1:29 pm : link
in the "old days" and some teams still use this approach, they will give the QB 2 or 3 plays to run and the QB is responsible for lining the players up and using the play based on if the formation is a left or right one based on if they are on a hash.

Even in those situations, audibles are rare and the QB is executing the call.

And of course there were outliers like Jim Kelly who basically called the plays throughout the game
Eli was trying to rally the team  
gregindaytona : 10/23/2018 6:16 pm : link
With this offensive line and the criticism coming to Eli I think he was trying to fire up the team. He is my question, does Tom Brady run any any better than Eli I say no. His offensive line is the difference. Eli can make the throws.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You run  
chuckydee9 : 10/23/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 14143485 montanagiant said:
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In comment 14143415 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143401 montanagiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14143389 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


In comment 14143312 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


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In comment 14143129 chuckydee9 said:


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In comment 14143121 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


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what the coach tells you to run. End of story.



Stop.. this isn't a rookie.. and if thats the rule than its on you for not getting the coach to let you make changes.. This is the kind of BS excuses bad employees make..



Bullshit. You've obviously never coached a day in your life. If my players don't run what we tell them to run, they don't play. There's no quicker way to the bench than insubordination.



That may be you coaching 7 year old.. but for all intensive purpose since the benching last year.. our coaches don't have the power to bench Eli.. not even when we are getting blown out.. not when he is unable to make any adjustments.. not when his life is threatened by the DL repeatedly hitting him..


And you know this how?

Let me guess, you're pulling it out of your ass right?



The last coach to bench him got fired the very next game.. Giants as a team don't do that.. there was no reason to fire him right then and there.. he was getting fired at the end of the season anyhow.. but the fans went nuts and suddenly he had to be fired right then..


You could have saved everyone time by posting:
“Yup you are correct, pulled it right out of my ass”


I am sorry you cannot follow my reasoning.. but a 2 time SB winning QB with over 15 year experience has the choice to change the play call.. May be I pulled it out of my ass but you go on believing that Eli had no choice but to follow exactly what PS said..
Don't give me this Bullshit about QBs  
chuckydee9 : 10/23/2018 6:38 pm : link
not being able to call audibles on last minute drives in the red zone..

The Giants could've (probably should've) run the ball on first down. Either score a touchdown or exhaust the Patriots' final timeout. Seems obvious.

Instead, quarterback Eli Manning switched the play at the line of scrimmage and threw a back-shoulder pass to wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr. in the corner of the end zone. Before Beckham could get his second foot down, Malcolm Butler slapped the ball from his grasp. Replays revealed he didn't complete the catch.

Eli calls audible - ( New Window )
chuckydee that is a completely different situation  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/23/2018 7:35 pm : link
In the game your article references, the Giants were down by 1 with 2:05 left on the Patriots 5 yard line. In that case, the Giants had all the time in the world to make adjustments at the line. In fact, the concern was that the Giants left too much time on the clock.

Last night, The Giants were under a minute, with the clock running, and NO timeouts, and they were down two scores. They were in hurry-up mode. Shurmur called in the play, and Eli tried to run it. There wasn't time to get up to the line, make reads, and call audibles. They needed to score ASAP and kick off immediately to give them any semblance of a chance to score again.

Shurmur called it in, Eli ran it as quickly as they could get lined up.
Last question...  
JOrthman : 10/23/2018 7:42 pm : link
.
link - ( New Window )
RE: chuckydee that is a completely different situation  
chuckydee9 : 10/24/2018 7:49 am : link
In comment 14144854 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
In the game your article references, the Giants were down by 1 with 2:05 left on the Patriots 5 yard line. In that case, the Giants had all the time in the world to make adjustments at the line. In fact, the concern was that the Giants left too much time on the clock.

Last night, The Giants were under a minute, with the clock running, and NO timeouts, and they were down two scores. They were in hurry-up mode. Shurmur called in the play, and Eli tried to run it. There wasn't time to get up to the line, make reads, and call audibles. They needed to score ASAP and kick off immediately to give them any semblance of a chance to score again.

Shurmur called it in, Eli ran it as quickly as they could get lined up.


I'm not doubting Shurmur called it in.. just that someone like Eli Manning can make changes to the called play anytime he wants.. some here are suggesting that he can't do that.. that's the stupid part..
Of course..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/24/2018 8:27 am : link
Manning could possibly change the play, but audibles in a two minute drill are rare, especially with a running clock. At the goal line with a running clock, eli isn't going to audible for a sneak.

Look at what happens - the QB spends most of the time getting people lined up and making sure they are set before snapping it. His decision is often whether or not to clock the ball instead of changing the play. A running clock doesn't afford time to do that.

It really is like some of you just started watching the game recently. Seriously.
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