Does being an "adult" equate to being a liar?

Trades usually don't bring back that much.

Jets traded a 5th for Brandon Marshall who then caught 110 passes. Patriots got Randy Moss for a 4th.

going to a 5-1 team on pace for a bye.

Coaches and GMs lie all the time. Nobody wants to be the cause of any controversy or invite more questions from the media. You have to know this by now.

not the 30+ players from last years roster that are no longer here or Flowers??? You say Eli Apple is the first to go??? that loses all credibility for even reading the rest of your post.

this year. Collins has graded out much higher. Apple played well in week one which led to a lot of people thinking he's been good all season. He hasn't. He's been decent at times and below average during others. He's still very handsy, takes bad angles and can't tackle for the life of him.

what did you expect shurmur to blast a player in public?????

I mean really...disgusted? Wow...may be time to step away and gain some perspective. So you would have the Coach open the books to the media and just spill everything without any filter? C'mon!

Mighty- I said THIS new purge. Learn to read. As for not getting anything back in trades, DUH, no kidding, that's why this was a DUMP, not a trade to get anything of value back. There is no way this doesn't smell real bad.

but if the guy's a headcase, a dump is basically the best you could hope for.

To be getting a 4th and a 7th back. Get rid of his salary and get a chance at 2 new players.

I'm sorry, who expects coaches and GMs to be completely honest with the in and outs of the front office and locker room with the media?

Stupid.

In comment 14144576 Dave on the UWS said:

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Mighty- I said THIS new purge. Learn to read.

No you didn't

In comment 14144576 Dave on the UWS said:

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Mighty- I said THIS new purge. Learn to read. As for not getting anything back in trades, DUH, no kidding, that's why this was a DUMP, not a trade to get anything of value back. There is no way this doesn't smell real bad.

I think you're being wildly unrealistic, both about why a team would trade a guy like Apple, and what a guy like Apple would bring back in a trade. Your degree of conviction about it is somewhat amusing.

they did get a fresh start and failed.

I fully expect Shurmur's pants to burst into flames at any moment.

but some of you guys really needed to take a step back and chill out here.

We have no idea why. Performance, attitude? They gave him another chance that they didn't give others and at the end of the day they traded him. They didn't want him on the team going forward. That doesn't make them liars. It means they evaluated him over time and didn't like what they saw. So they moved on.

In comment 14144576 Dave on the UWS said:

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Mighty- I said THIS new purge. Learn to read.

lmao. i should learn to read? please quote where in your post you said anything about this new purge. ill wait.....

to dump on him publicly all spring, summer and fall, right?

This is a damn business. They got the most value they could have for this whiny ass malcontent. If they waited until the end off season everyone would have just said no until he got cut

you guys missed the point entirely (not Peter though). Shurmur “claimed” to give him a clean slate and at EVERY turn had positive things to say about his attitude, work ethic, professionalism and performance on the field. Of course they no longer wanted him on the team and orobably for off the field reasons. I’m not naive or stupid, but this smacks of a coach and organization that is disengenous at best and outright liars at worst.

= Annie Apple LMFAOROTF!

Gettlebelly seems a LOT more skilled at dumping players than he does at finding quality players to replace them. He got rid of Jones, a serviceable C, and Sharp, a decent PR, and left the team with no-name “depth.”

This was a high-profile, job-saving, face-saving move to show a ‘transition’ from the original “win-now” approach, which has been a colossal failure (e.g., Solder, Stewart), to an obvious, “long-term rebuild”. No assurance that replacements, draft or FA, will improve (look at Hernandez) this team. This team is now a personnel carousel; team bonding and cogency are impossible, and the loss margins may increase as the defense declines. At least the owners are consistent, as ownership was for almost 2 decades (1964-early 1980s).

In comment 14144667 Dave on the UWS said:

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you guys missed the point entirely (not Peter though). Shurmur “claimed” to give him a clean slate and at EVERY turn had positive things to say about his attitude, work ethic, professionalism and performance on the field. Of course they no longer wanted him on the team and orobably for off the field reasons. I’m not naive or stupid, but this smacks of a coach and organization that is disengenous at best and outright liars at worst.

How do you know they didn't give him a clean slate and over the past couple weeks he started his shit again and they had enough?

In comment 14144648 montanagiant said:

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This is a damn business. They got the most value they could have for this whiny ass malcontent. If they waited until the end off season everyone would have just said no until he got cut

What are the incentives for players to go all out for this FO? To risk injury on a game-critical play. This is a buiness for the fingible players, but ownership is so ridiculuously concerned about job security for the moronic GM and HC. Is that concern business related, too?

In comment 14144667 Dave on the UWS said:

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you guys missed the point entirely (not Peter though). Shurmur “claimed” to give him a clean slate and at EVERY turn had positive things to say about his attitude, work ethic, professionalism and performance on the field. Of course they no longer wanted him on the team and orobably for off the field reasons. I’m not naive or stupid, but this smacks of a coach and organization that is disengenous at best and outright liars at worst.

Complete utter nonsense...jesus

to be pretty shocked that there are actually people who think getting a 4th and 7th rounder for an immature guy who was already on warning and wasn't going to be signed to a second contract meaning he leaves for nothing is a bad deal.

there are actually people using this move as a way to say Gettleman fucked up.

It has to be to further an agenda because in teh grand scheme of moves that are made in the NFL, that's a pretty good return. And a hell of a lot better than nothing in return, which is what they got for Pugh and Richburg

.

In comment 14144675 D_Giants said:

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In comment 14144648 montanagiant said: Quote: This is a damn business. They got the most value they could have for this whiny ass malcontent. If they waited until the end off season everyone would have just said no until he got cut What are the incentives for players to go all out for this FO? To risk injury on a game-critical play. This is a buiness for the fingible players, but ownership is so ridiculuously concerned about job security for the moronic GM and HC. Is that concern business related, too?

I have no idea what you mean with your HC/GM/Owners conspiracy theory.

What are the incentives? Well in his case getting a good contract after his rookie one. Just like any job would be.

I can accept AND that seems likely. I started this thread to have a hard hitting discussion here about the circumstances behind this move. Your suggestion is highly plausible.

these two sentences in direct conflict with one another??

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I REALLY find it disgusting that they traded him, no dumped him for peanuts. (a later 4th this year and a 7th next year). its a dump pure and simple.

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I'm all for dumping his ass at year's end, add him to the list of colossal failures of this organization.

So you are DISGUSTED for trading him but would be fine just dumping him in the offseason?

This is just a bizarre thread and a bizarre take.

In comment 14144690 Dave on the UWS said:

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I can accept AND that seems likely. I started this thread to have a hard hitting discussion here about the circumstances behind this move. Your suggestion is highly plausible.

Dave, they didn't can him just for his holding call last night. There has to be some other mitigating stuff he pulled

In comment 14144667 Dave on the UWS said:

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you guys missed the point entirely (not Peter though). Shurmur “claimed” to give him a clean slate and at EVERY turn had positive things to say about his attitude, work ethic, professionalism and performance on the field. Of course they no longer wanted him on the team and orobably for off the field reasons. I’m not naive or stupid, but this smacks of a coach and organization that is disengenous at best and outright liars at worst.

You're excused, but really, no one missed anything. You're just not making any sense.

In comment 14144678 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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to be pretty shocked that there are actually people who think getting a 4th and 7th rounder for an immature guy who was already on warning and wasn't going to be signed to a second contract meaning he leaves for nothing is a bad deal. there are actually people using this move as a way to say Gettleman fucked up. It has to be to further an agenda because in teh grand scheme of moves that are made in the NFL, that's a pretty good return. And a hell of a lot better than nothing in return, which is what they got for Pugh and Richburg

+1. Holy shit, last season most of this board wanted Apple cut mid week towards the end of the season. Now we act like we gave Revis in his prime.. Apple was a problem. Apple like an idiot mugged Jones while we were sacking Ryan and cost the Giants time, yards etc. Apple never seemed to get the idea that you have to show up each week and not just when the going is easy... A 4th and 7th the following year is pretty good.

I didn’t suggest any conspiracy theory. I was suggesting the coach has been lying about Apple since the spring. Now your suggestion about the last couple of weeks maybe things have changed makes sense and I can accept that as just as likely.

In comment 14144697 Dave on the UWS said:

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I didn’t suggest any conspiracy theory. I was suggesting the coach has been lying about Apple since the spring. Now your suggestion about the last couple of weeks maybe things have changed makes sense and I can accept that as just as likely.

So you needed someone to point out that "things may have changed"

would you like for the coach to go on interviews and say, "Boy that Dave sure sucked donkey balls tonight. He couldn't get out of his own way. We are really considering cutting the guy."

Is that what you want? If you do, then you're going to be sadly disappointed with every coach in the NFL.

speculated that Jenkins should have had safety help. On the MSG post game, Antrel Rolle was not at all reticent about assigning blame. He claims the safety properly came up to cover the middle of the field and that it was standard coverage for the off cb to give deep help. The off cb was Apple and Trel threw him right under the bus.

You wouldn't expect one blown coverage to cause a trade, but I wonder whether the coaching staff attributes a lot of the miscommication in the secondary to Apple.

just trying to help because I believe you are truly a Giants fan who is just frustrated at this outcome. I relate very much to that frustration.

Here's the rub: you are stating certain things as facts that may not be. For one, you mention that he has the highest grades. You don't know that to be true. Your grades for him may be highest, but you really don't know what the team's grades on him have been, especially relative to other players on the defense.

Another one you may be wrong on is your description of his professionalism. While he may have kept his mouth shut to the media, you have no way of knowing how he has behaved in the locker room, which is probably far more important than what's said through the media.

I'm very disappointed because I've had high hopes for Eli Apple. Squaring the trade with comments made by Shurmur about EA does not require the coach to have been a liar. Quite simply, there are lots of things to square it.

For one, EA may have asked to be traded. He may have seen that this team was far away from contending and he may have decided that he was not going to stay here long term.

Another plausible scenario is that he has become a quiet malignant force on the team. Coach Shurmur may have just become aware of this, or possibly has tried to work with him to address things over the past couple of weeks only to find that he isn't responding well.

Sooner or later it's likely we'll hear reports that tell more of the background. Don't be surprised if you feel much differently after the reports have a chance to surface.

every NFL coach disguises what is going on when talking to media. Yeah it is lying, but are you really going to get so upset about it? You have to take what coaches say to the media with a grain of salt. It is mostly 'coach speak'. It's part of the business.

That said, this team is 1-6 for the 2nd year in a row, so I understand it's frustrating as hell.

Is there a possibility that Shurmur gave Apple a clean slate but Apple's performance was lacking? IMO, he stinks. I posted here about a play(there were many)against Carolina where it was very apparent that Apple was in position to make a tackle on an end around but shied away from the play and the contact. Getting anything for this dog is a gift.

In comment 14144696 jvm52106 said:

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In comment 14144678 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to be pretty shocked that there are actually people who think getting a 4th and 7th rounder for an immature guy who was already on warning and wasn't going to be signed to a second contract meaning he leaves for nothing is a bad deal. there are actually people using this move as a way to say Gettleman fucked up. It has to be to further an agenda because in teh grand scheme of moves that are made in the NFL, that's a pretty good return. And a hell of a lot better than nothing in return, which is what they got for Pugh and Richburg +1. Holy shit, last season most of this board wanted Apple cut mid week towards the end of the season. Now we act like we gave Revis in his prime.. Apple was a problem. Apple like an idiot mugged Jones while we were sacking Ryan and cost the Giants time, yards etc. Apple never seemed to get the idea that you have to show up each week and not just when the going is easy... A 4th and 7th the following year is pretty good.

Why do so many here take media quotes as gospel?

Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple were problems in the locker room. A new regime took over. they immediately told everyone they had a new slate, a chance to prove themselves etc.

LOOK AT THE FACTS PEOPLE. Apple got traded, they tried to trade Flowers multiple times.

They've known for a while neither guy was in their long term plans. It made all the sense in the world to let each guy repair some of his value before attempting to trade him.

Maybe they're trading him because they feel the return will help more in the long term?

It doesn't necessarily have to be a punishment for the way he's acted, and they didn't exactly send him somewhere that he'll suffer. The Saints are a very good team.

Not sure what the outrage is about here.

Beyond that - this was the thing that set you off?

Not the endless number of bad decisions that got us here to begin with?

Seems like a weird place to suddenly draw the line and become so angry.

But apparently it’s now a job description for president.

Welp... there goes this thread.

In comment 14144784 Marty866b said:

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Getting anything for this dog is a gift.

Please don't insult dogs this way. I'd rather have my beagle pup playing CB than this guy.

that this team is a business. It is a failing business. The only way to straighten this mess is get rid of players that will get you a return while removing what the office has identified as a problem. Eli Apple came back and played well (IMHO) but still leaves much to be desired. The office sees certain players with undesirable tendencies or attitude. It is not only about the player himself but getting the remaining players to understand that if a 1st rounder can be jettisoned (2 actually) then they can be gotten rid of if they don't buy in to the program.

Liar? If not throwing a player under the bus despite the fact he is a distraction, is a lie, so be it. I'm not saying Eli is a problem, but you can connect the dots. Of course the HC and GM will say good things about a player they hope to entice into buying in to their program. Does not mean it is a lie. Means they are trying to develop a player.

that professional sports is entertainment?

And that libel laws, defamation laws and torturous interference with the right to earn a living apply?

You cant say anything you feel like to the public space about someone you are in a contract with?

You do realize the coaches and Gm are supposed to motivate players not be honest to fans?

You do realize that organizations, coaches and Fo who run down players in the media, do not attract Free Agents?

But somehow a direct personal open and honest relationship so you are not ever surprised is the higher standard?

As for the word "adult": Listen to what children say and watch what adults do.

Always. Everywhere. Everyone

they may be doing him a HUGE favor. I hope it works out the best for him. He is a very young man.

A lot of salient points and I will stop listening to the pressers. For me that’s the takeaway. Who else would you guys trade who may not be good in the locker room?

In comment 14144934 Dave on the UWS said:

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A lot of salient points and I will stop listening to the pressers. For me that’s the takeaway. Who else would you guys trade who may not be good in the locker room?

Liar

and we dont know the behind the scenes but i have seen nothing from our HC to give me any confidence in him whatsoever.

credit as a home fan. He has played nothing like a first rounder and getting anything for him is a plus. Local south Florida radio was killing the Saints for giving up that much for a crappy player.

I love the fans, this is where I want to be. Oh wait! Miami offered a few hundred thousand more? See ya! I’m on my way to Miami!!