Would you rather
*finish this year strong
*tank, but try to be competitive next year
*tank again next year (I'm talking 0-16, 1-15 bad again) and be in position to draft Tua?
The Giants need a longterm plan right now - and obviously they have one. I wonder if Project Asset Dump is the precursor for getting all bad salaries away, trading down from the #1 spot next year and ultimately insuring you get Tua in the 2020 draft? Any chance this is what we're seeing now? Tua is a sensational, very special prospect IMO - one that doesn't come around very often. Ordinarily I could never sign up for a 1-15 type season but when this organization is as effed as this, and Tua as good as he appears to be, is it worth it?
The 2020 team would feature a cost-controlled Tua with a bevy of picks (from trading down in 2019), Barkley/OBJ and no bad contracts.
Have to believe that after the draft in May and FA, they will be better than 1-15 in 2019.
If your season is lost you can start planning for next season, but planning to tank a whole season expecting a savior is ridiculously irresponsible.
Have you watched the Raiders? We're not getting the first pick in the draft!
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get the number 1 draft pick this year and trade down and the Giants should get the extra picks needed to trade up next year.
Have you watched the Raiders? We're not getting the first pick in the draft!
Have you watched us? I think we can do it.
Agree completely. UConn is wise.
It is a culture of losing that no teams wants, nor should they.
I'm not trying to be rude, but can't you see how flawed this thinking is? I mean, just terrible, awful planning.
1) Even if you successfully did what you are suggesting in terms of trading down, there could be as many as 14 teams looking for a QB in the draft next year. That means even with trading down, it might be too expensive to do it, or the team you wish to trade with might also value the QB you want (perhaps Tua, perhaps not), as the future of their franchise and may refuse any and all offers.
2) There is no guarantee you can trade up or down, it takes two to tango.
3) If you count on getting your QB in 2020, what if that class turns out to be not so great afterall? Very possible. I've watched Tua, there's some good and bad with him. I'm not convinced he's an NFL franchise savior. He might be, but he's playing with the top players in the country around him, and in most cases, he has the easiest job of any QB in the country, because the talent gap between Alabama and everyone else is significant.
The Giants should take a QB as soon as they feel there is a franchise QB in the draft available to them. If they don't have any comfort level in the guys that are available to them, you pass.
But to the OP, the tanking talk is ridiculous. This team is always going to try to win. They might not be good enough to actually win, but they aren't going to tank. What that means for the 2019 season, at this point, who knows. What I do know is if you think it's going to be simple and easy to just grab a franchise QB in 2020 then you are sadly mistaken.
...but just one to say one thing about Tua.
Have you seen how much time this guy has in the pocket?
He could eat dinner; take a nap; wake up and still be untouched.
The team at 1 needs to be willing to trade down though. Not always willing.
The flip side is - the get the best recruits in the country. So they are all legitimately good players on their own. You can't dismiss that.
The way Tua gets rid of the ball quickly and accurately, reads defenses pre-snap and uses his mobility to get out of trouble and throw on the run are all translatable skills. In other words, he's got the skills to overcome bad pass blocking.
The flip side is - the get the best recruits in the country. So they are all legitimately good players on their own. You can't dismiss that.
The way Tua gets rid of the ball quickly and accurately, reads defenses pre-snap and uses his mobility to get out of trouble and throw on the run are all translatable skills. In other words, he's got the skills to overcome bad pass blocking.
I hear ya! Kinda reminds me a little like Joe Montana.
But this isn't going down to the Home Depot and picking up a quarterback after we've saved up some cash.
There are too many variables - we don't know how he'll be between now and then, whether he'll suffer any setbacks or injuries. We don't know what competition we'll have for the top pick. It's not as if the Giants invented or even perfected the tank, as we've got competition that also has the aforementioned 'draft capital' this year.
Assuming it's as simple as 'tank one more year and we get a better QB' is greatly trivializing the process.
...but just one to say one thing about Tua.
Have you seen how much time this guy has in the pocket?
He could eat dinner; take a nap; wake up and still be untouched.
That's my concern. His o-line and his receivers are both top notch. How do you compare him to a guy like Jones who's on a weak offensive team?
People want a long-term contender and wonder how we'll get there:
this is the way. It appears it may already be happening, that's why you trade a perfectly good Snacks for a 5th rounder.
2020, you've got Tua, prime Barkley and a ton of picks to rebuild the OL and a 34 defense in Bettcher's style. The Giants would also have big cap space, but I'd refrain from signing UFA's. Build a new team through the draft, then have the cap space available to resign to 2nd contracts. That's how you build a winning team the fans can invest in.
I obviously think the guy is for real. I've been hyping him up for over a year now. But I also worry about him holding up. He's not a big guy and even though he doesn't take a lot of unnecessary hits and is relatively smart about when he takes off running, he's still taken some shots and his knee isn't 100%.
We have to see where we're at next year. It's too soon to attempt to formulate any sort of plan like that.
Also trade back this season since we have holes all over anyways
If they don't believe in the QBs I wouldn't hate having Nick Bosa, but that seems unlikely.
Again, and I'm trying to make this point clear - of course the Giants players on the field will be trying to win the game. And the coaches are coaching to win.
Tanking is done on a systemic level. Again - it's why you trade Snacks for a 5th rounder. Nothing the guys on the field can do about it, but it hurts their ability to win this week's game while clearing cash and roster spaces moving forward. To me, that's tanking at the pro level.
I obviously think the guy is for real. I've been hyping him up for over a year now. But I also worry about him holding up. He's not a big guy and even though he doesn't take a lot of unnecessary hits and is relatively smart about when he takes off running, he's still taken some shots and his knee isn't 100%.
We have to see where we're at next year. It's too soon to attempt to formulate any sort of plan like that.
They better not be in contention for him. A third straight year below 4 wins is absurd to even fathom in today’s NFL. If you have faith in Gettleman, the Giants should be at least competitive next year. This isn’t MLB/NBA.
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I wouldn't "plan" to tank - but I think if we continue along this way, we'll be in the mix for him regardless.
I obviously think the guy is for real. I've been hyping him up for over a year now. But I also worry about him holding up. He's not a big guy and even though he doesn't take a lot of unnecessary hits and is relatively smart about when he takes off running, he's still taken some shots and his knee isn't 100%.
We have to see where we're at next year. It's too soon to attempt to formulate any sort of plan like that.
They better not be in contention for him. A third straight year below 4 wins is absurd to even fathom in today’s NFL. If you have faith in Gettleman, the Giants should be at least competitive next year. This isn’t MLB/NBA.
Simple answer: I don't have faith in Dave Gettleman.
It really depends on the options.
If we're going to just promote Kevin Abrams to GM, I don't want anything to do with that.
If there's a more forward thinking GM out there who won't dismiss analytics or be too stubborn to think outside the box a bit, I can get on board with that.
But another "internal" or Giants "family hire" (sans Belichick) and I'm not interested in even bothering.
If your season is lost you can start planning for next season, but planning to tank a whole season expecting a savior is ridiculously irresponsible.
I get the injury comment or the possibility of play falling off the cliff, but where does the "What if he gets in trouble with the law" come from? Do you know something we don't know? Or are you assuming something about a player based on something else?
It's a lot harder in practice though. You can't try to lose and theres always the risk that you back into a few wins and you still need a qb in the 21 draft.
Patterson has come on as of late and has all of the things I think you’d want in a qb, solid size, big arm, and he transitioned well from a spread offense at Ole Miss to a more pro style offense at Michigan. With Herbert, the 2020 draft could be special and the Giants may not even need the first pick to be set up well.
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I don’t disagree, which is why I have been advocating for a new GM/HC.
It really depends on the options.
If we're going to just promote Kevin Abrams to GM, I don't want anything to do with that.
If there's a more forward thinking GM out there who won't dismiss analytics or be too stubborn to think outside the box a bit, I can get on board with that.
But another "internal" or Giants "family hire" (sans Belichick) and I'm not interested in even bothering.
I think it is not unfair to assume the plan was Gettleman/Abrams. Abrams was involved in all the coaching interviews & seems to be highly respected. It makes sense that DG sold a 2-3 year window with Eli at which point the GM position would be transitioned to Abrams similar to Accorsi to Reese. This plan has obviously blown up.
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this year if they don’t love one and shoot for one in 2020, Tua or someone else.
Agree completely. UConn is wise.
Mahommes went what pick? Big Ben? Brady? Rogers? Bree’s? Didn’t look anybof this up. The notion you need the # 1 overall pick to get a franchise QB is for the hysterical fan who just doesn’t get it. Draft great players. Period. It will make you much better. Forcing picks gets you guys like Flowers. Being so sold on a scheme also limits you. It’s not like here aren’t serious needs all Over the fuckfing roster. We have one OL who may be here in 2 years. A great RB and a couple of good WRs and one above average safety.
BPA or trade down if you don’t love the QBs
In this case, would you sacrifice a season or two for the chance of drafting Tua -- or any other specific player? His performance on an Alabama team that has far more talent than pretty much any other team they play doesn't predict he'll be a top pro QB, where he'll come to a bad team and the talent level in the league is much more even.
The NFL isn't like the NBA, where the worst place you can be is mediocre, and where "tanking" gets you into the lottery and gives you a chance to vault to the top.
Also, you don't build a winning culture by deliberately losing. I just don't get how this would work.
Tua as a prospect? His size really bother me. And he could be a left-handed version of Russell Wilson. But I put a lot of emphasis on metrics and would need to see how Tua grades out.
Oakland is obviously tanking.
The Giants actually do want to win, they're just horrible.
Giants will win one more game this year, Oakland will not.