I wouldn't have thought it possible to field a worse OL than last year, but by dint of both poor personnel choices and poor coaching these two have pulled it off. And without the rash of injuries that hit last year. I have a hard time tell which bears more of the blame. How is it that half the time they have no clue whom to block? And, if they thought Pugh and Richberg were overpaid, why did they go and overpay Solder and Omameh by so much. And deciding even before camp to start Halapio over Jones and trade Jones for a 7th rounder does not make sense whether you are trying to win now or to build for the future.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
I agree with the going for the two call, my point was, that if you are going to play the percentages game, you can't just pick and choose when to when to do it. It should be a part of you game plan going forward. For instance, taking a chance on a long field goal instead of punting, etc.
To me going for two in that situation and not leveraging similar, high-probability, non-scoring situations would be equivalent to employing the shift once in baseball, it not working and then never going back to it again. The reason the shift works is if you regularly implement it. More often than not, it will work.
So to see Shurmur not implement that in the redskins game was disappointing; eschewing the long field goal attempt, etc.
I'm willing to give Gettleman and Shurmer more than 8 months before I shit all over them.
Eli got us two rings; he's 37 years old and sick and tired of having a sieve of an OL for the last 5 years. Yes his play has dropped off, but Eli of 10 years ago wouldn't have fared much better with the shitty line they've had
His FA signings were disastrous, especially Solder.
As people smarter than me have observed, Solder handles speed rushers by forcing them to run beyond the QB. The idea is that the QB steps up in the pocket and the ball is out by the time the rusher recovers. It worked in New England, where Brady did that all the time. With the Giants, however, the inside of the line is getting beaten constantly. There's no pocket to step up into. So Solder's approach isn't working.
But that's the whole thing about the line playing as a unit. Nothing works until everything works. Or, at least, nothing works well until everything works adequately.
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
This.
Then the Shurminator. Is there real evidence thus far he’s really an upgrade over McAdoo? I really don’t see a discernible difference between the two with regard to the on the field product.
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Quote:
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
S
How could he have explained his lack of protection on his blindside if he got Norwell instead? Remember DG's 1st attempt was Norwell. It was NOT to protect Eli blindside.
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
If the Roster was so bad as you suggest (Which I agree with) then why do you go after SOlder?
1a--- ANd if you think it was only to protect Eli's blindside why not get someone who was cheaper? WHy get an old LT on a team going nowhere if you know you were going to stink?
1b-- If you are going to use the make believe made up excuse that you needed a an older extremely overpaid LT and that was a logical plan then how can you explain how hard DG went after Norwell 1st? If he got Norwell what was the plan to protect ELi's blindside if that was so important?
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
I'll go with DG. If I remember reading correctly, there are 17 players that have been held over from last year's squad. They jettisoned 66 percent of their team. Can't be in win-now mode with that type of turnover. The off-season signings were of some concern, especially Solder. They gave him Pro Bowler money. I understand the need for LT, especially if they were in the ridiculous win now mode, but he just wasn't the player. Omameh is a head-scratcher and Stewart was a laugh track. Obviously, we need some time to see how the draft plays out, especially Barkley. Right now, it looks as if there are some nice players. So we'll revisit their play in 2 to 3 years. And was Tanney the best they could do at QB #2?
He's the visionary oversight, and Shurmur not far behind him. DG's UFA looks to be a significant set of mistakes and a poor job of pro personnel scouting. The org has a whole seems to have a blind spot for self-scouting, and it's a huge problem.
I didn't have big expectations of Eli, he's been declining the past two seasons and it has continued, even accelerated.
because I never expected anything good from him to begin with.
Everything about that process was a disappointment, from the bringing in of Toupee Ernie as a "consultant" to the phony "GM search" to the hiring of the least inspiring candidate possible.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
This is the worst logic I've heard when discussing Gettleman.
They needed a bad guy? You think that any other GM couldn't come in and purge the roster for fear he'd develop a reputation?
The NFL is notorious for constant roster churn/turnover. No GM would have a hard time coming in and pulling the trigger on a bunch of guys who were underperforming and brought in by the previous GM.
I think it's hard to evaluate Shurmur and specifically his offense because of how bad Eli is. Yes, the OL has been awful, but as those who break down film have illustrated, there have been several instances each game where Eli missed plays despite good protection. And some of them (e.g goalline rollout that should've went to Beckham) were not difficult reads/throws. Shurmur drew up and called a great play there. Eli failed to execute.
Love DG's 1st draft, but obviously disappointed with some of his FA signings. Probably less so the Solder signing than most, but the Stewart/Omameh/Martin signings made no sense on any level.
People seem to love the draft, but what sets it apart from prior NYG Â
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
I don't like or understand a lot of what DG did but I think we have to give him a few years to turn over and build this roster. and I do like that he has been active and not afraid to make moves.
Eli is Eli. Personally I would have moved on a few years ago. I had hopes that we could catch lightening in a bottle this year with some decent line play (which we didn't get), all the weapons, and our new HC who is a supposed QB/offensive genius. Alas, that didn't happen... but since it was just hope to begin with, I can't really be that disappointed.
But I expected PS to come in here and change the culture of losing... show something creative... use our skill players in new and interesting ways... get the team to be better than the sum of its parts. Instead... we may as well be watching Ben McAdoo in disguise.
I have real concerns about him being the guy to lead us out of the doldrums. and that is disappointing.
The organization needed an enema. There's the initial gusher of shit, like a firehose of explosive diarrhea for a season, then things get better, then MUCH better.
We're still at the explosive diarrhea phase, so cut them some slack.
Remember, Bill Parcells had a season like this.
RE: People seem to love the draft, but what sets it apart from prior NYG Â
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
Compare that to our recent drafts where we basically got 1 maybe 2 long term starters. From 2010-2015, these are the players taken in the 2nd round or later that started multiple games:
Linval - obviously a great pick
Jacquian Williams
Rueben Randle
Hankins - another great pick
Kennard
Richburg
Collins
Hart - does starting by default count?
As good as the draft picks are shaking up to be, he fundamentally failed in free agency. Worst of all, his OL signings have been horrific. Him getting us to an average (or a freaking slightly below average OL) would enable both Shurmur & Eli to have a chance.
Speaks to how disappointing the ownership and overall management of the team is.
As a side note, I wonder if this band of bumblers even considered interviewing, say, Matt Nagy, or if they would have gone after Sean McVay if he were available during their search. I just can't see it.
doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta. Moreover, selecting Webb does not cost the Giants a roster spot because Tanney's roster spot is expendable under any conceivable circumstance.
because I can't comprehend what their expectations were of him.
He's an immobile QB behind perhaps the most embarrassing offensive line in the league. 45% of runs go for 1 yard or less and the pass-protection gets beat on the regular by 4-man rushes.
Of course a more mobile QB would be a better fit here. But to be disappointed in Eli for not being mobile suggests that there was an expectation that he would or could be mobile.
Has he missed some throws? Of course (note: every QB in the league misses throws. They just get several more opportunities to compensate for them).
But for him to be the #1 disappointment on the team? Strange times.
His draft I love. Trading for Ogletree, trading JPP I am good with.
Signing Solder I understand we needed to get a Left Tackle.
The issues I have are letting Fluker leave but signing Omameh, signing Stewart, ignoring the Center position as this should have been a priority in FA or the draft. Keeping Flowers and Apple were short leash moves that I wish were made prior to the season.
Eli needs a pocket to step up into and a running game to take pressure off. Dropping back 40 + times a game was gonna get him killed.
That said, I didn't expect to have the whole thing fixed in one season. I did expect Shurmur and Eli to both be better than they have been but I think most of the issues this team is having is a direct result of the state of the O Line, so Gettlemen said he would fix the line....it ain't fixed.
Reese deserves most of the blame here, but he wasn't listed as an option.
All of the above. They are all bigger disappointments then I could have ever imagined each of them could be. Seriously, last year really appeared to be as rock bottom as you could get, yet somehow this year they have managed to find an even lower point as a collective unit.
doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta.
Not if the coaching staff doesn't think there's something worth developing. Given that A) They promptly identified and drafted a QB to their liking & B) Ditched Webb at the first opportunity, it's a safe conclusion to make that they did not.
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
I cannot be "disappointed" because this is what I expected.
Who in their right mind ever thought that the Giants would be better in 2018?
What did the FO do to significantly justify such baloney? I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the Maras across the board.
I wish they sold the franchise. They deserve the disdain of the fans. What is needed is empty seats, no merchandise sales and no gambling. And a plane flying over the stadium with a banner. Then perhaps the Maras will sell out. I can only dream.
I knew what we had in Eli, how could I possibly be disappointed in him? I have no idea what Shurmur is trying to do with the offense and he’s plenty of a disappointment. I guess that leaves Gettleman. Still, this team was really in a lot of trouble when he took over. It was probably silly of me to think the new guys could turn things around in one off season.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
I agree with the going for the two call, my point was, that if you are going to play the percentages game, you can't just pick and choose when to when to do it. It should be a part of you game plan going forward. For instance, taking a chance on a long field goal instead of punting, etc.
To me going for two in that situation and not leveraging similar, high-probability, non-scoring situations would be equivalent to employing the shift once in baseball, it not working and then never going back to it again. The reason the shift works is if you regularly implement it. More often than not, it will work.
So to see Shurmur not implement that in the redskins game was disappointing; eschewing the long field goal attempt, etc.
Eli got us two rings; he's 37 years old and sick and tired of having a sieve of an OL for the last 5 years. Yes his play has dropped off, but Eli of 10 years ago wouldn't have fared much better with the shitty line they've had
Disappointed, no. Ready for him to retire.
But that's the whole thing about the line playing as a unit. Nothing works until everything works. Or, at least, nothing works well until everything works adequately.
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
This.
Then the Shurminator. Is there real evidence thus far he’s really an upgrade over McAdoo? I really don’t see a discernible difference between the two with regard to the on the field product.
Not fond of his dismissal of analytics.
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Quote:
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
https://wfan.radio.com/articles/news/dave-gettleman-wfan-giants-had-very-reasonable-offer-no-2-pick
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
S
How could he have explained his lack of protection on his blindside if he got Norwell instead? Remember DG's 1st attempt was Norwell. It was NOT to protect Eli blindside.
Quote:
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
If the Roster was so bad as you suggest (Which I agree with) then why do you go after SOlder?
1a--- ANd if you think it was only to protect Eli's blindside why not get someone who was cheaper? WHy get an old LT on a team going nowhere if you know you were going to stink?
1b-- If you are going to use the make believe made up excuse that you needed a an older extremely overpaid LT and that was a logical plan then how can you explain how hard DG went after Norwell 1st? If he got Norwell what was the plan to protect ELi's blindside if that was so important?
The OL mess is on him and that’s enough. It’s the most important unit and he blew it.
Going into the NFL season with no pass rush. 2nd most important unit and we have nothing here except Vernon. Swing and a miss again.
Trading for ogletree and that deal? He’s ok. But we traded to pay him $10 mill for that game? Bad move.
Stewart? It was clear as day that this guy was finished.
Who did he have scouting the existing NFL talent and FA? That crew blew it.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
I didn't have big expectations of Eli, he's been declining the past two seasons and it has continued, even accelerated.
Everything about that process was a disappointment, from the bringing in of Toupee Ernie as a "consultant" to the phony "GM search" to the hiring of the least inspiring candidate possible.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
This is the worst logic I've heard when discussing Gettleman.
They needed a bad guy? You think that any other GM couldn't come in and purge the roster for fear he'd develop a reputation?
The NFL is notorious for constant roster churn/turnover. No GM would have a hard time coming in and pulling the trigger on a bunch of guys who were underperforming and brought in by the previous GM.
3. Shurmur
I think it's hard to evaluate Shurmur and specifically his offense because of how bad Eli is. Yes, the OL has been awful, but as those who break down film have illustrated, there have been several instances each game where Eli missed plays despite good protection. And some of them (e.g goalline rollout that should've went to Beckham) were not difficult reads/throws. Shurmur drew up and called a great play there. Eli failed to execute.
Love DG's 1st draft, but obviously disappointed with some of his FA signings. Probably less so the Solder signing than most, but the Stewart/Omameh/Martin signings made no sense on any level.
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
But I think I will go with Shurmer.
I don't like or understand a lot of what DG did but I think we have to give him a few years to turn over and build this roster. and I do like that he has been active and not afraid to make moves.
Eli is Eli. Personally I would have moved on a few years ago. I had hopes that we could catch lightening in a bottle this year with some decent line play (which we didn't get), all the weapons, and our new HC who is a supposed QB/offensive genius. Alas, that didn't happen... but since it was just hope to begin with, I can't really be that disappointed.
But I expected PS to come in here and change the culture of losing... show something creative... use our skill players in new and interesting ways... get the team to be better than the sum of its parts. Instead... we may as well be watching Ben McAdoo in disguise.
I have real concerns about him being the guy to lead us out of the doldrums. and that is disappointing.
The organization needed an enema. There's the initial gusher of shit, like a firehose of explosive diarrhea for a season, then things get better, then MUCH better.
We're still at the explosive diarrhea phase, so cut them some slack.
Remember, Bill Parcells had a season like this.
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
Superstar (Barkley)
Potential pro-bowler (Hernandez)
Starter (Hill)
Depth/potential starter (Carter)
Unknowns:
McIntosh
Lauletta
Compare that to our recent drafts where we basically got 1 maybe 2 long term starters. From 2010-2015, these are the players taken in the 2nd round or later that started multiple games:
Linval - obviously a great pick
Jacquian Williams
Rueben Randle
Hankins - another great pick
Kennard
Richburg
Collins
Hart - does starting by default count?
As good as the draft picks are shaking up to be, he fundamentally failed in free agency. Worst of all, his OL signings have been horrific. Him getting us to an average (or a freaking slightly below average OL) would enable both Shurmur & Eli to have a chance.
As a side note, I wonder if this band of bumblers even considered interviewing, say, Matt Nagy, or if they would have gone after Sean McVay if he were available during their search. I just can't see it.
Eli hasn't been good this year, but his performance hasn't approached the depths of the other two.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta. Moreover, selecting Webb does not cost the Giants a roster spot because Tanney's roster spot is expendable under any conceivable circumstance.
He's an immobile QB behind perhaps the most embarrassing offensive line in the league. 45% of runs go for 1 yard or less and the pass-protection gets beat on the regular by 4-man rushes.
Of course a more mobile QB would be a better fit here. But to be disappointed in Eli for not being mobile suggests that there was an expectation that he would or could be mobile.
Has he missed some throws? Of course (note: every QB in the league misses throws. They just get several more opportunities to compensate for them).
But for him to be the #1 disappointment on the team? Strange times.
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
Winner!!!
His draft I love. Trading for Ogletree, trading JPP I am good with.
Signing Solder I understand we needed to get a Left Tackle.
The issues I have are letting Fluker leave but signing Omameh, signing Stewart, ignoring the Center position as this should have been a priority in FA or the draft. Keeping Flowers and Apple were short leash moves that I wish were made prior to the season.
Eli needs a pocket to step up into and a running game to take pressure off. Dropping back 40 + times a game was gonna get him killed.
That said, I didn't expect to have the whole thing fixed in one season. I did expect Shurmur and Eli to both be better than they have been but I think most of the issues this team is having is a direct result of the state of the O Line, so Gettlemen said he would fix the line....it ain't fixed.
Reese deserves most of the blame here, but he wasn't listed as an option.
(2) Eli Manning (I think a veteran QB, again, even considering the lack of talent on the OL, should be able to do more)
(3) Dave Gettleman (very positive grade on his draft; negative on his free agent acquisitions)
Quote:
doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta.
Not if the coaching staff doesn't think there's something worth developing. Given that A) They promptly identified and drafted a QB to their liking & B) Ditched Webb at the first opportunity, it's a safe conclusion to make that they did not.
Quote:
He's the real problem and has been for years.
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
Great post Red Dog.
He wasn't one of the choices.
How is this question so difficult for some of you to understand?
There are three choices in this thread. Gettleman, Shurmur or Eli.
If you want to start another thread with different options, please do so. Good lord. Pay attention!
Who in their right mind ever thought that the Giants would be better in 2018?
What did the FO do to significantly justify such baloney? I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the Maras across the board.
I wish they sold the franchise. They deserve the disdain of the fans. What is needed is empty seats, no merchandise sales and no gambling. And a plane flying over the stadium with a banner. Then perhaps the Maras will sell out. I can only dream.