but with time, really not bad. Sadly, rarely time.
Gettleman made a few moves I questioned. But overall, isn't what I'd consider a disappointment. Not a targeted one.
I think it's Shurmur for me. I thought he'd be a better leader, and I've seen to notches in the armor. His handling of the media started our great and has fizzled. And there have been enough in-game head-scratchers to make me become a head-shaker far too often.
Shurmur, by a decent margin.
I'm always hopeful, though. Even if I'm nervously so with him.
but we should have expected this outcome from the beginning. With Gettleman, it looks as if he hit on most of the draft picks. The Free agents have been busts, but can you turn around a roster this deprived in talent and lack of cap space in one year?
With Shurmur, the time outs and play calling as been suspect, but again, he is identifying weak areas (OL) and making changes. The OL hasn't been blocking well enough for us as fans to determine if the play calling is bad because the routes are not developing.
And Eli, its sad to see. I understand the offensive line is terrible, and couldn't be fixed in one year. But with the weapons he has, there have been times were he flat out missed some reads and throws. Like O'Hara said the OL being so bad it has traumatized him. Its disappointing, but it happens. Giving him another shot at a run was the right thing to do, but the outcome is disappointing.
There is plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think it can be put solely on one person.
Eli is who Eli is. Vastly overrated by some and vastly underrated by some. His line has pretty much damned him. But with this team he has to be almost perfect in order for the Giants to win and aside from 2011 and two Super Bowls runs, Eli has never been almost perfect.
Unlike most, I'm giving a pass to Shurmur this year. Yes clock management has not been good, but the last two coaches mismanaged it too. Play calling has been mediocre.
I guess Gettleman missing on Stewart and Omameh is the most annoying and Solder has been a disappointment.
I was not a fan of either hires
Gettleman and Shurmer.
They both were more of the same and it has played out.
The organization had the opportunity to change the course and chose not to.
Gettleman is a good scout and can pick draft talent but is a mess when it comes to running an organization and let's his ego get in the way of decisions.
Shurmer is a coordinator nothing more and not a creative one.
I thought Shurmur was a creative coach that got more out of his QBs than his peers. I know the OL blows and Eli is a statue, but the Giants have some amazing skill players. I don’t see any imagination.
Gettleman. Wow. He really whiffed this offseason like down one, bases loaded, bottom of the 9th, game seven of the World Series whiff. The only reason Shurmur is ahead of DG is expectations. I had more for Shurmur.
With an average OL Eli would be making more plays. He is shell shocked. I get frustrated when he makes a gaffe on one of the rare chances when he is not pressured, but he has to be seeing ghosts.
Eli has been become shell shocked due to his bad oline which was Reeces fault not his. He is done. Time to retire.
Gettleman has done a mixed job. He had a great first draft but his FA signings have been bad. I was a fan of Solder, even though he was overpaid, I thought you have to get a solid leader on this oline. He has been bad. Give him a chance a rebuild takes a few years.
Shurmur's play calling and getting his team to play better especially in the red zone has been terrible. He deserves another year with better oline to work with.
I'm wondering if an off season firing is in line for the OL coach. So, I blame Pat for this guy as it seems he is not up to the job. Am I wrong? If not, who should they target as OL coach in off season?
There's just a preponderance of evidence that he's been thrashing about.
I like the guy but he has to get a hold (and perhaps fire) of his scouting department and professional talent evaluation departments.
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
Who hired the position coaches responsible for getting more out of guys like Nate Solder and who are coaching them on a daily basis?
Gettleman tried to make us competetive in one year, which turned out to be impossible. But you've got to give the GM more than one year to right the course.
Shurmur has been suspect in his playcalling, but some of that can be blamed on his OL and immobile QB. Might also need an actual OC to call the game in progress. I think he looks and smells the part though. Gotta give him more than one year to settle in.
Eli is done. The game has passed him by. He's mentally not able to function behind this OL and he's too old to be part of the rebuilding process. In a couple of years when hopefully we're competative again, Eli should be well entrenched in his next profession and we have our next franchise QB at the helm.
but if I had to pick one it would be Shurmur. I thought he would be able to design an offense that could function despite the lousy OL. Bzzzzzz. Wrong! They can't even function.
I do think Gettleman has done a poor job, but I think that's less on Gettleman and more on the organization he was dropped into. I think they were looking to preserve status quo (not just Eli, but their scouting methods, their FO staff, etc.), and Gettleman represents a continuation of an organization that was flailing.
Shurmur's up next - I'm not seeing anything out of the coaching staff. Nobody has picked up their game, no playcalling that could be considered innovative or different. He came in with a lousy record and he's picking up right where he left off.
He's just not good at football anymore. It's not his fault. You just can't beat the aging process.
Gettleman on the other hand, can't make himself any smarter, but he could make himself less arrogant. He could learn that running the ball and stopping the run are not the two most important things when building a winning team. It's proven, he just has to read it. He could use data and technology to his advantage rather than mocking people who use computers. He could have watched more than one giants game before interviewing to be gm of the giants.
He could hire someone who would tell him that signing stewart was dumb. He probably could not have foreseen that solder would be so terrible but he still owns that deal. He could have assessed where the team was more accurately (perhaps watching their games would have helped)
Shurmur is mediocre, disposable, and forgettable. He should be fired so we can find a higher upside coach, but I don't think he's the reason we suck right now.
Have trouble being disappointed with any of them Â
Gettleman is turning over an awful roster. It’s clear Marc Ross was horrid. I’m not sure why he was allowed to remain in a position of influence for so long. One of the first things Gettleman did was fire Ross and systematically get rid of many of Reese’s poor draft picks. It’s hard to compete while this roster is on the operating table, so to speak.
Shurmur is doing the best he can right now. I like that he’s constantly changing things up and giving the young guys a chance to prove they belong. I think with better talent and more seasons of being able to pick his guys, he’ll be a better HC.
Eli entered into an impossible situation and his inherent optimism hurt him this year. People said he had no more excuses this year with all his weapons, but really, the Oline is still a mess and his weapons have been as inconsistent as he has been. I’m saddened by this ending for him because many have simply decided it’s his turn to fall on the sword. But not disappointed with any of them. Sympathetic and immensely impatient? Yes.
Only one to be disappointed about that set us back years with poor drafting. Top 10ish overall picks like Flowers and Apple been a complete waste which we could of used
that you did not put John Mara as a choice because he’s be the runaway pick, but I would have to say
1.). Gettleman
I notice he turned the roster over but it seemed to be an attempt to have your cake and eat it too type of approach and it’s still not clear to me what the philosophy is, what the team building. He’s turning 67 soon. The GM jobs now in all sports are very time consuming and intensive in terms of management, analytics, etc. I question Gettlemans ability to really get the job done due to a number of factors related to age, health, and too much familiarity and deference to the Maras in terms of organizational approaches.
His high-falutin attitude and bluster earned him this slot. His FA picks were all failures. His draft class can’t be judged for a few years. If Carter and Hernandez don’t develop as key guys and Lauletta doesn’t materialize this draft will be a failure regardless of how good Barkley is. This offseason is pivotal to determining direction and build up for the franchise.
2.). Eli
I am sorry but for the enormous sum of money Eli has made last year and this year he has failed to raise his game when the team needed him to. It’s not all his fault but his limitations and decline has become very very noticeable and he’s vastly overpaid to what he now brings to the table. He’s become enigmatic in being able to make throws even when he has time. I do think he has shell shock now which is a shame but no other team in the NFL wants him as a starter. He turns 38 in January. It’s time to ride off into retirement.
3.) Shurmur
One could argue for a higher slot but it’s also clear to me he’s been saddled with some players and limited flexibility thus far in implementing his program. His hire of Hal Hunter as OL coach was curious and questionable. His ability as a HC to me is still in doubt. His bread and butter is supposedly OL and helping tailor offenses to his QB and WR talent. Both have been unmitigated disasters so far.
Would not shock me at all if he’s a guy who isn’t the HC when this thing finally turns it around. I think he gets 3 years before being judged.
(1) His free agency pick-ups (Solder, Stewert; Omameh; Latimer);
(2) His dumping lots of players after final cut-down day, which IMO impacted the locker room;
(3) His getting rid of so many players from the old regime;
(4) His surrendering a 3rd Rounder, which will be the 65th or 66th pick in 2019, for a guy with an injury history who then gets injured on his first day of practice;
(5) While Saquon Barkley is a fantastic player in so many ways, Gettleman's choice should have been QB IMO, or trade down and get more premium picks.
It may turn out that Gettleman's best pick-up (not from the Draft) will be Quadree Henderson... I think this guy is an electric returner.
and the ownership selected him. He is a relic, and this organization continues to be stuck in the past. There is a reason why we continue to struggle on all sides of LOS and select areas and if we are not careful this club will be labeled an elephant graveyard for coaches. It all starts with poor drafting, player evaluations, cronies, and over paying players. We should study Andy Reid and the Eagles and some other clubs, and start getting rid of guys that much sooner. The best move I have seen them make recently is trading Harrison. An early indicator of knowing that a product has high mileage/wear and knowing they have drafted guys within the typical process and are now producing. A big fear is Gettleman age, health, etc. I might be a good idea to make some decisions about how the team feels about Shurmur as well. We are so bad right now that they could essentially do a reboot of the whole thing and start rebuilding through draft.
RE: Have trouble being disappointed with any of them Â
Gettleman is turning over an awful roster. It’s clear Marc Ross was horrid. I’m not sure why he was allowed to remain in a position of influence for so long. One of the first things Gettleman did was fire Ross and systematically get rid of many of Reese’s poor draft picks. It’s hard to compete while this roster is on the operating table, so to speak.
Shurmur is doing the best he can right now. I like that he’s constantly changing things up and giving the young guys a chance to prove they belong. I think with better talent and more seasons of being able to pick his guys, he’ll be a better HC.
Eli entered into an impossible situation and his inherent optimism hurt him this year. People said he had no more excuses this year with all his weapons, but really, the Oline is still a mess and his weapons have been as inconsistent as he has been. I’m saddened by this ending for him because many have simply decided it’s his turn to fall on the sword. But not disappointed with any of them. Sympathetic and immensely impatient? Yes.
He did a great job in Carolina building up their offensive line but has failed so far here. Hernandez will be a fixture here but Solder and Omameh were very bad signings.
(1) His free agency pick-ups (Solder, Stewert; Omameh; Latimer);
(2) His dumping lots of players after final cut-down day, which IMO impacted the locker room;
(3) His getting rid of so many players from the old regime;
(4) His surrendering a 3rd Rounder, which will be the 65th or 66th pick in 2019, for a guy with an injury history who then gets injured on his first day of practice;
(5) While Saquon Barkley is a fantastic player in so many ways, Gettleman's choice should have been QB IMO, or trade down and get more premium picks.
It may turn out that Gettleman's best pick-up (not from the Draft) will be Quadree Henderson... I think this guy is an electric returner.
A bad GM hire that is no reacting to poor execution on his part. They should use this bad season to dump him and Shurmur and reboot this mother with some innovative young guys around a new QB.
I thought he had enough left. He doesn't. And it's not his fault, it is what it is.
Cant go with Gettlemen. In your first year on a job, your mistakes will show themselves immediately and your successes usually take a little longer to shine.
I don't think we know exactly yet what Shumer's system can produce due to this shitshow of a season, which I think he's handled as well as anyone can.
was what I thought he would be, skiddish behind a less than
adequate OL. But I think my bigger disappointment has been Schurmer. I really thought better coaching could get us past some of the obvious shortcomings. Play calling, clock management, player under-utilization, the two point conversion call??? etc, etc
I still don't even understand why Shurmur was hired. Gettleman walked in talking about a return to smash mouth Giants football and then a month later hired a guy who runs something entirely different. A guy who was influenced by some of the same coaches who influenced McAdoo. I don't understand the point of this.
I'll say Gettleman because his usage of resources has been terrible. His free agent signings and trades are about as bad as they can be. There are some moves he has made that I actually think downgraded the team even further.
I want to say Gettleman in the hiring of Shurmur
It feel's McHandley all over again .
Only question one pick in the draft that being Lauletta
I though O-line should have been the choice since we have
no depth. Nobody foresaw Soldier playing this poorly or
even Omameh being as bad as he has been .
With a decent Oline I doubt Eli would be in the conversation
Then there is Shurmur very uninspiring choice . Also the choice to switch the defense to 3-4 when we have not much
in the way of linebackers but I liked the Ogletree . The next draft and season shold tell us a bit more on DG I don't have much faith in Shurmur period ..If they continue to play poorly in pre-season and falter early next season he should be replaced .
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
I knew Eli was going to be terrible. He's been moving towards this point for years. He stinks.
Gettleman? How can you be disappointed? This roster was fucking terrible. Terrible. What options did he have in this offseason to make this line better? Did you want Hart and Flowers to start again? You lost out on your #1 target in Norwell. So you go after Solder. His tape isn't bad, and it's definitely no where near what he is showing this year.
You want to nail him for Omameh, Latimer and Stewart? Eh. Go for it, but those are all small time signings in the long run.
I liked his draft. Solid solid draft. And any man who fires Ross is a man that gets some latitude.
You know what I love the best? Getting rid of trash and not trying to save it. Clear and decisive. I like how we don't have players on scholarship and and not afraid to change. THATS real front office leadership.
To those that think he could have changed things around in year 1 are imbeciles. Did you really buy into his speeches of competing? Please. Might as well tell fans not to buy tickets.
As for Shurmer? Some of his staff was questionable and some of his time management is questionable so if I had to pick one, I'd say Shurmer. But not that much of disappointment due to the shit show he walked in on. The whole roster is changing week to week.
Brought in three players for offensive line. Two have played poorly. Relied on Flowers to play right tackle spot.Gave up a draft choices for a punter and a middle linebacker with a bloated contract.Terrible performance.
Eli is not a disappointment. A good player on a poor team.
from the disdain of analytics, to apparently not bothering to listen to potential trades for #2, to trading assets for a punter, to giving jonathan stewart guaranteed money, to thinking this team was anywhere close to winning it seems pretty clear to me he is a moron who has no idea who to build a team in this erat
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Quote:
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
Stewart, Omameh and Martin have been highly suspect as well.
Not fond of the Lauletta pick, the team had bigger needs in the 4th.
Seems the team didn't do their homework on MacIntosh...
On the other hand:
The rest of his draft seems good
Realizing that it was time to tear the team down and rebuild, and having the guts to do it is good. Although, I thought it should have been done when he got the job.
Shurmer was handed a 55 gallon drum of shit and asked to make something of it. While, he has not always acquitted himself, for now he gets a pass...
Eli, is what he is... But realize that he was made into what he is, he wasn't always this way.
If you believe what some were saying last offseason, Patricia was the number 1 choice.
I disagree with the approach DG had, but 1-7 is awful. I see no improvement at all. I see lousy clock management. I’m unsure if he has a commanding presence. There doesn’t seem to be any scheming around deficiencies. What is his overall coaching record? 11-30?
I don’t care about the owner, GM or QB - 1-7 is awful. Add in the fact that we have “generational” talents at WR & RB. The Giants don’t have the only bad OL in football.
For his half baked GM search which begat a half baked coach search and which perpetuated the thesis that Eli could win without a defense playing shutdown ball
If you believe what some were saying last offseason, Patricia was the number 1 choice.
I disagree with the approach DG had, but 1-7 is awful. I see no improvement at all. I see lousy clock management. I’m unsure if he has a commanding presence. There doesn’t seem to be any scheming around deficiencies. What is his overall coaching record? 11-30?
I don’t care about the owner, GM or QB - 1-7 is awful. Add in the fact that we have “generational” talents at WR & RB. The Giants don’t have the only bad OL in football.
No the Giants are not the only team with a bad OL...
But they are the team with the worst... And by a wide margin. If you look at this OLine and don't realize that it is historically bad, then you don't know anything about offensive line, and probably not much about football.
If you are simply relying on PFF, or FO for your evaluation, you are missing the mark by a wide margin. This is the worst run blocking team, AND the worst pass blocking team. The ONLY reason it doesn't look as bad as it really is, is because Eli gets the ball out a full .4 seconds faster than ANY OTHER QB in the league. If he waited that extra .4 seconds, the sack numbers would be on a record pace.
Selectively aggressive on offense: The reason he took shit for his two point decision against Atlanta is because he decides to be aggressive at the wrong times. If you are going to play the percentages, it only works if you employ it consistently. There were times in the past few games where having that same aggressive mind set may have had a positive impact.
Play call selection: I get the line blows, but the play calling isn't doing anyone any favors. Doesn't seem to be calling plays to neutralize the poor line, like screens, until obvious downs like 3rd and long. Bettcher, on the other hand, seems to be doing more with less talent.
Selectively aggressive on offense: The reason he took shit for his two point decision against Atlanta is because he decides to be aggressive at the wrong times. If you are going to play the percentages, it only works if you employ it consistently. There were times in the past few games where having that same aggressive mind set may have had a positive impact.
Play call selection: I get the line blows, but the play calling isn't doing anyone any favors. Doesn't seem to be calling plays to neutralize the poor line, like screens, until obvious downs like 3rd and long. Bettcher, on the other hand, seems to be doing more with less talent.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
Safe to say there aren't many redeeming qualities thus far. But I'd imagine it difficult for an offensive coach to squeeze offense out of a line that is getting his all-world RB hit behind the line on the majority of his carries and a 37 year old QB who obviously cannot overcome the garbage in front of him.
If you're going to go with Pat Shurmur and expect offense - he's going to need a QB and a passable OL.
I can take him or leave him at this point. I just don't know how much more anyone expects any coach to get out of this offense given the personnel we're working with.
Skill players don't matter if you can't open up running lanes or protect the QB at all.
Mara. From what I can imperfectly see over time. No System, No Guru. No Method. No Performance Metrics or scorecard for the top positions.
He simply does not seem to have a point of view on how to win over time so its all dependent on people echoing their confirmation bias to him
As for Solder, i honestly dont know if he is being asked to cover to the inside gap so hernandez can cover to the center gap on the thesis that Eli gets more time if the inside holds and the centers are the first and biggest vulnerability of the line? Is his arm badly hurt but there is no one else?
We do not know enough to fully understand his results.
Of the three Id say DG. I just did not see the alarm bells on the OL that matches the OL situation. This is not hard. we ended last year with no real even close to average LT, RG, Center, LG or RT. Much less any average depth. Think about that. Everyone knew that. How did we hid the BBGOFO ( Big Blinding Glimpse of the Fucking Obvious) in plain sight from ourselves from DG on down? I have no idea.
PATdestrian Shurmur was a very weak hire. Thinking Eli Manning could be dominate again and signing garbage players while giving away good ones has looked very bad so far.
Lets go by process of elimination. Gettleman ? He is what he is. A 67 year old man in poor health. It was obvious that this team is in need of a rebuild. Even under the best of circumstances this may have been a 9-7 team with a 38 year old QB and 67 year old GM going into 2019. I don't blame Gettleman, I blame the guy who hired him.
Eli ? He's the greatest QB in Giants history. His ability to engineer comebacks, work with less than stellar OL's and RB's may be among the best in NFL history. But now he's done. He should have retired last year just as Archie hinted he should. Its painful to watch him now, but like many fading star athletes he doesn't realize that he can no longer get it done. I can't blame him for that. I blame the owner who can't make a tough decision.
Shurmer ? The only mistake he made was taking this job to begin with. He was set up for failure from day 1. He's been saddled with a QB who has nothing left, a backup QB, Webb who was no damned good an an OL that is 4/5 no good. With the right material he may have been a good coach. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he's going to be around long enough for us to find out.
There's enough here to make this offense do something. I don't see any expertise on Shurmur's part in being creative and using his resources well. Maybe it will take a little more time. But there has been evidence of a lack of fundamentals regarding questionable decisions, bad clock management, personnel...
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
A lot of things have to go wrong to be as bad as they've been. Too hard to assign blame to any single me person, but the head coach was who I was most excited about coming into the year, so Shurmur is the guy.
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
The fact that the “hand of god comment” bothers some of you so much is mind blowing. And instead of it being a tongue and cheek comment (which was its intent) it’s now bringing religion into it. Dramatic or no?
I’d say 50/50 Shurmur and Eli. I though we’d be more creative on offense but I really think Eli’s mobility is such an issue that it’s basically hopeless until he’s gone. He hasn’t stepped his play up at all and there’s nothing to be scared of even with Barkley and Beckham. I’m convinced even a slightly mobile QB like an Alex Smith or Keenum would make this offense look light years better than it’s been.
Re Shurmur: I was expecting more improvement over the first 8 games; the next 8 games will tell a lot. However it seems that they are trying to fumigate the locker room and change the culture. They may be facing a deeper problem than we or they realized. If so, this is truly a rebuilding season, and is more about laying the foundation for future success than about wins.
Re Eli: I don't know how to gauge what he's doing. He was sacked 31 times in 8 games. That's ridiculous. Yet on the other hand he's getting criticized for dumping the ball off too much. Should he stand in the pocket and wait for slow-developing long passes? Usually, when he tries that, he gets sacked. I don't think any QB -- mobile or not -- would be playing well under these conditions. Might someone else do better? Maybe. He hasn't been all that accurate when he has been able to get the ball out. The offense rarely looks crisp; other teams often look sharp and efficient even when they're losing. The one constant over the years of mediocre and bad regular seasons is Eli. I love the guy but it's true.
Re Gettleman: Talks a great game, seems to have nailed the draft, will look even better if Beal and McIntosh pan out. (I think both are long shots, but I'd love to be wrong about that.) The O-line fiasco and the general suckitude of the free agent signings makes his first off-season a wash. But the guy was fighting cancer, too. Maybe he should have stepped aside, but what's past is past.
Here's one thing I give Gettleman and Shurmur some credit for: They've been aggressive about getting rid of guys who won't be part of the solution (Apple, Flowers, Snacks) and about churning the bottom of the roster. They seem to be decisive about making changes, even if some of those changes are going to hurt in the short term. They said all the right things about a clean slate, etc. but when they've seen a problem, they've taken action. The one big exception is Eli's play, but getting rid of Eli isn't addition by subtraction. If there were an upgrade available, I think they'd make the move. There really isn't. Nobody's an upgrade if the line is this bad.
His decision to release Webb and sign Tanney made no sense to me. The Giants should today be playing both Webb and Lauletta to determine whether either one is starter material. The fact that no team added Webb to their active roster in no way convinces me that he cannot play in this league. His arm is light years better than Lauletta's. Granted his accuracy is in question, but the remainder of 2018 should be a test of both quarterbacks, not just a test of Lauletta.
If the fact that no team thought he was worth a roster spot Â
Shurmur’s been weak but the coaching hasn’t been across-the-board bad.
Eli is who I thought he is.
Gettleman has been shit with the exception of what looks like a few solid draft picks. I don’t count Saquon among those because he passed on players of greater value, including (and especially) the QBs.
He is weak. His reputation with the media in Cleveland was not good. He has not learned from that experience. He lacks charisma and leadership skills. He has done nothing to improve the offense. He will be replaced along with Gettleman in 2020,
I wouldn't have thought it possible to field a worse OL than last year, but by dint of both poor personnel choices and poor coaching these two have pulled it off. And without the rash of injuries that hit last year. I have a hard time tell which bears more of the blame. How is it that half the time they have no clue whom to block? And, if they thought Pugh and Richberg were overpaid, why did they go and overpay Solder and Omameh by so much. And deciding even before camp to start Halapio over Jones and trade Jones for a 7th rounder does not make sense whether you are trying to win now or to build for the future.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
I agree with the going for the two call, my point was, that if you are going to play the percentages game, you can't just pick and choose when to when to do it. It should be a part of you game plan going forward. For instance, taking a chance on a long field goal instead of punting, etc.
To me going for two in that situation and not leveraging similar, high-probability, non-scoring situations would be equivalent to employing the shift once in baseball, it not working and then never going back to it again. The reason the shift works is if you regularly implement it. More often than not, it will work.
So to see Shurmur not implement that in the redskins game was disappointing; eschewing the long field goal attempt, etc.
I'm willing to give Gettleman and Shurmer more than 8 months before I shit all over them.
Eli got us two rings; he's 37 years old and sick and tired of having a sieve of an OL for the last 5 years. Yes his play has dropped off, but Eli of 10 years ago wouldn't have fared much better with the shitty line they've had
His FA signings were disastrous, especially Solder.
As people smarter than me have observed, Solder handles speed rushers by forcing them to run beyond the QB. The idea is that the QB steps up in the pocket and the ball is out by the time the rusher recovers. It worked in New England, where Brady did that all the time. With the Giants, however, the inside of the line is getting beaten constantly. There's no pocket to step up into. So Solder's approach isn't working.
But that's the whole thing about the line playing as a unit. Nothing works until everything works. Or, at least, nothing works well until everything works adequately.
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
This.
Then the Shurminator. Is there real evidence thus far he’s really an upgrade over McAdoo? I really don’t see a discernible difference between the two with regard to the on the field product.
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Quote:
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
S
How could he have explained his lack of protection on his blindside if he got Norwell instead? Remember DG's 1st attempt was Norwell. It was NOT to protect Eli blindside.
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
If the Roster was so bad as you suggest (Which I agree with) then why do you go after SOlder?
1a--- ANd if you think it was only to protect Eli's blindside why not get someone who was cheaper? WHy get an old LT on a team going nowhere if you know you were going to stink?
1b-- If you are going to use the make believe made up excuse that you needed a an older extremely overpaid LT and that was a logical plan then how can you explain how hard DG went after Norwell 1st? If he got Norwell what was the plan to protect ELi's blindside if that was so important?
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
I'll go with DG. If I remember reading correctly, there are 17 players that have been held over from last year's squad. They jettisoned 66 percent of their team. Can't be in win-now mode with that type of turnover. The off-season signings were of some concern, especially Solder. They gave him Pro Bowler money. I understand the need for LT, especially if they were in the ridiculous win now mode, but he just wasn't the player. Omameh is a head-scratcher and Stewart was a laugh track. Obviously, we need some time to see how the draft plays out, especially Barkley. Right now, it looks as if there are some nice players. So we'll revisit their play in 2 to 3 years. And was Tanney the best they could do at QB #2?
He's the visionary oversight, and Shurmur not far behind him. DG's UFA looks to be a significant set of mistakes and a poor job of pro personnel scouting. The org has a whole seems to have a blind spot for self-scouting, and it's a huge problem.
I didn't have big expectations of Eli, he's been declining the past two seasons and it has continued, even accelerated.
because I never expected anything good from him to begin with.
Everything about that process was a disappointment, from the bringing in of Toupee Ernie as a "consultant" to the phony "GM search" to the hiring of the least inspiring candidate possible.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
This is the worst logic I've heard when discussing Gettleman.
They needed a bad guy? You think that any other GM couldn't come in and purge the roster for fear he'd develop a reputation?
The NFL is notorious for constant roster churn/turnover. No GM would have a hard time coming in and pulling the trigger on a bunch of guys who were underperforming and brought in by the previous GM.
I think it's hard to evaluate Shurmur and specifically his offense because of how bad Eli is. Yes, the OL has been awful, but as those who break down film have illustrated, there have been several instances each game where Eli missed plays despite good protection. And some of them (e.g goalline rollout that should've went to Beckham) were not difficult reads/throws. Shurmur drew up and called a great play there. Eli failed to execute.
Love DG's 1st draft, but obviously disappointed with some of his FA signings. Probably less so the Solder signing than most, but the Stewart/Omameh/Martin signings made no sense on any level.
People seem to love the draft, but what sets it apart from prior NYG Â
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
I don't like or understand a lot of what DG did but I think we have to give him a few years to turn over and build this roster. and I do like that he has been active and not afraid to make moves.
Eli is Eli. Personally I would have moved on a few years ago. I had hopes that we could catch lightening in a bottle this year with some decent line play (which we didn't get), all the weapons, and our new HC who is a supposed QB/offensive genius. Alas, that didn't happen... but since it was just hope to begin with, I can't really be that disappointed.
But I expected PS to come in here and change the culture of losing... show something creative... use our skill players in new and interesting ways... get the team to be better than the sum of its parts. Instead... we may as well be watching Ben McAdoo in disguise.
I have real concerns about him being the guy to lead us out of the doldrums. and that is disappointing.
The organization needed an enema. There's the initial gusher of shit, like a firehose of explosive diarrhea for a season, then things get better, then MUCH better.
We're still at the explosive diarrhea phase, so cut them some slack.
Remember, Bill Parcells had a season like this.
RE: People seem to love the draft, but what sets it apart from prior NYG Â
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
Compare that to our recent drafts where we basically got 1 maybe 2 long term starters. From 2010-2015, these are the players taken in the 2nd round or later that started multiple games:
Linval - obviously a great pick
Jacquian Williams
Rueben Randle
Hankins - another great pick
Kennard
Richburg
Collins
Hart - does starting by default count?
As good as the draft picks are shaking up to be, he fundamentally failed in free agency. Worst of all, his OL signings have been horrific. Him getting us to an average (or a freaking slightly below average OL) would enable both Shurmur & Eli to have a chance.
Speaks to how disappointing the ownership and overall management of the team is.
As a side note, I wonder if this band of bumblers even considered interviewing, say, Matt Nagy, or if they would have gone after Sean McVay if he were available during their search. I just can't see it.
doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta. Moreover, selecting Webb does not cost the Giants a roster spot because Tanney's roster spot is expendable under any conceivable circumstance.
because I can't comprehend what their expectations were of him.
He's an immobile QB behind perhaps the most embarrassing offensive line in the league. 45% of runs go for 1 yard or less and the pass-protection gets beat on the regular by 4-man rushes.
Of course a more mobile QB would be a better fit here. But to be disappointed in Eli for not being mobile suggests that there was an expectation that he would or could be mobile.
Has he missed some throws? Of course (note: every QB in the league misses throws. They just get several more opportunities to compensate for them).
But for him to be the #1 disappointment on the team? Strange times.
His draft I love. Trading for Ogletree, trading JPP I am good with.
Signing Solder I understand we needed to get a Left Tackle.
The issues I have are letting Fluker leave but signing Omameh, signing Stewart, ignoring the Center position as this should have been a priority in FA or the draft. Keeping Flowers and Apple were short leash moves that I wish were made prior to the season.
Eli needs a pocket to step up into and a running game to take pressure off. Dropping back 40 + times a game was gonna get him killed.
That said, I didn't expect to have the whole thing fixed in one season. I did expect Shurmur and Eli to both be better than they have been but I think most of the issues this team is having is a direct result of the state of the O Line, so Gettlemen said he would fix the line....it ain't fixed.
Reese deserves most of the blame here, but he wasn't listed as an option.
All of the above. They are all bigger disappointments then I could have ever imagined each of them could be. Seriously, last year really appeared to be as rock bottom as you could get, yet somehow this year they have managed to find an even lower point as a collective unit.
doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta.
Not if the coaching staff doesn't think there's something worth developing. Given that A) They promptly identified and drafted a QB to their liking & B) Ditched Webb at the first opportunity, it's a safe conclusion to make that they did not.
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
I cannot be "disappointed" because this is what I expected.
Who in their right mind ever thought that the Giants would be better in 2018?
What did the FO do to significantly justify such baloney? I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the Maras across the board.
I wish they sold the franchise. They deserve the disdain of the fans. What is needed is empty seats, no merchandise sales and no gambling. And a plane flying over the stadium with a banner. Then perhaps the Maras will sell out. I can only dream.
I knew what we had in Eli, how could I possibly be disappointed in him? I have no idea what Shurmur is trying to do with the offense and he’s plenty of a disappointment. I guess that leaves Gettleman. Still, this team was really in a lot of trouble when he took over. It was probably silly of me to think the new guys could turn things around in one off season.
Gettleman made a few moves I questioned. But overall, isn't what I'd consider a disappointment. Not a targeted one.
I think it's Shurmur for me. I thought he'd be a better leader, and I've seen to notches in the armor. His handling of the media started our great and has fizzled. And there have been enough in-game head-scratchers to make me become a head-shaker far too often.
Shurmur, by a decent margin.
I'm always hopeful, though. Even if I'm nervously so with him.
With Shurmur, the time outs and play calling as been suspect, but again, he is identifying weak areas (OL) and making changes. The OL hasn't been blocking well enough for us as fans to determine if the play calling is bad because the routes are not developing.
And Eli, its sad to see. I understand the offensive line is terrible, and couldn't be fixed in one year. But with the weapons he has, there have been times were he flat out missed some reads and throws. Like O'Hara said the OL being so bad it has traumatized him. Its disappointing, but it happens. Giving him another shot at a run was the right thing to do, but the outcome is disappointing.
There is plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think it can be put solely on one person.
Eli is who Eli is. Vastly overrated by some and vastly underrated by some. His line has pretty much damned him. But with this team he has to be almost perfect in order for the Giants to win and aside from 2011 and two Super Bowls runs, Eli has never been almost perfect.
Unlike most, I'm giving a pass to Shurmur this year. Yes clock management has not been good, but the last two coaches mismanaged it too. Play calling has been mediocre.
I guess Gettleman missing on Stewart and Omameh is the most annoying and Solder has been a disappointment.
Gettleman and Shurmer.
They both were more of the same and it has played out.
The organization had the opportunity to change the course and chose not to.
Gettleman is a good scout and can pick draft talent but is a mess when it comes to running an organization and let's his ego get in the way of decisions.
Shurmer is a coordinator nothing more and not a creative one.
For all the "hog mollie" talk and hoopla about fixing the OL, he's actually managed to have a WORSE offensive line here than the one we had before.
Almost hard to do.
His draft looks pretty good - but his FA signings were horrendous. Both offensive linemen have been major busts and Stewart never made any sense.
He's going to have to do a lot better than this to fix the Giants.
Gettleman. Wow. He really whiffed this offseason like down one, bases loaded, bottom of the 9th, game seven of the World Series whiff. The only reason Shurmur is ahead of DG is expectations. I had more for Shurmur.
With an average OL Eli would be making more plays. He is shell shocked. I get frustrated when he makes a gaffe on one of the rare chances when he is not pressured, but he has to be seeing ghosts.
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
Gettleman has done a mixed job. He had a great first draft but his FA signings have been bad. I was a fan of Solder, even though he was overpaid, I thought you have to get a solid leader on this oline. He has been bad. Give him a chance a rebuild takes a few years.
Shurmur's play calling and getting his team to play better especially in the red zone has been terrible. He deserves another year with better oline to work with.
I like the guy but he has to get a hold (and perhaps fire) of his scouting department and professional talent evaluation departments.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
Quote:
Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
Who hired the position coaches responsible for getting more out of guys like Nate Solder and who are coaching them on a daily basis?
The blocking from the interior line and RBs is the worst part of our current pass game. Eli has no pocket to step up into.
Gettleman tried to make us competetive in one year, which turned out to be impossible. But you've got to give the GM more than one year to right the course.
Shurmur has been suspect in his playcalling, but some of that can be blamed on his OL and immobile QB. Might also need an actual OC to call the game in progress. I think he looks and smells the part though. Gotta give him more than one year to settle in.
Eli is done. The game has passed him by. He's mentally not able to function behind this OL and he's too old to be part of the rebuilding process. In a couple of years when hopefully we're competative again, Eli should be well entrenched in his next profession and we have our next franchise QB at the helm.
So in order:
1. Eli
2. Shurmur
3. Gettleman
Shurmur's up next - I'm not seeing anything out of the coaching staff. Nobody has picked up their game, no playcalling that could be considered innovative or different. He came in with a lousy record and he's picking up right where he left off.
Gettleman on the other hand, can't make himself any smarter, but he could make himself less arrogant. He could learn that running the ball and stopping the run are not the two most important things when building a winning team. It's proven, he just has to read it. He could use data and technology to his advantage rather than mocking people who use computers. He could have watched more than one giants game before interviewing to be gm of the giants.
He could hire someone who would tell him that signing stewart was dumb. He probably could not have foreseen that solder would be so terrible but he still owns that deal. He could have assessed where the team was more accurately (perhaps watching their games would have helped)
Shurmur is mediocre, disposable, and forgettable. He should be fired so we can find a higher upside coach, but I don't think he's the reason we suck right now.
Shurmur is doing the best he can right now. I like that he’s constantly changing things up and giving the young guys a chance to prove they belong. I think with better talent and more seasons of being able to pick his guys, he’ll be a better HC.
Eli entered into an impossible situation and his inherent optimism hurt him this year. People said he had no more excuses this year with all his weapons, but really, the Oline is still a mess and his weapons have been as inconsistent as he has been. I’m saddened by this ending for him because many have simply decided it’s his turn to fall on the sword. But not disappointed with any of them. Sympathetic and immensely impatient? Yes.
1.). Gettleman
I notice he turned the roster over but it seemed to be an attempt to have your cake and eat it too type of approach and it’s still not clear to me what the philosophy is, what the team building. He’s turning 67 soon. The GM jobs now in all sports are very time consuming and intensive in terms of management, analytics, etc. I question Gettlemans ability to really get the job done due to a number of factors related to age, health, and too much familiarity and deference to the Maras in terms of organizational approaches.
His high-falutin attitude and bluster earned him this slot. His FA picks were all failures. His draft class can’t be judged for a few years. If Carter and Hernandez don’t develop as key guys and Lauletta doesn’t materialize this draft will be a failure regardless of how good Barkley is. This offseason is pivotal to determining direction and build up for the franchise.
2.). Eli
I am sorry but for the enormous sum of money Eli has made last year and this year he has failed to raise his game when the team needed him to. It’s not all his fault but his limitations and decline has become very very noticeable and he’s vastly overpaid to what he now brings to the table. He’s become enigmatic in being able to make throws even when he has time. I do think he has shell shock now which is a shame but no other team in the NFL wants him as a starter. He turns 38 in January. It’s time to ride off into retirement.
3.) Shurmur
One could argue for a higher slot but it’s also clear to me he’s been saddled with some players and limited flexibility thus far in implementing his program. His hire of Hal Hunter as OL coach was curious and questionable. His ability as a HC to me is still in doubt. His bread and butter is supposedly OL and helping tailor offenses to his QB and WR talent. Both have been unmitigated disasters so far.
Would not shock me at all if he’s a guy who isn’t the HC when this thing finally turns it around. I think he gets 3 years before being judged.
I didn't like:
(1) His free agency pick-ups (Solder, Stewert; Omameh; Latimer);
(2) His dumping lots of players after final cut-down day, which IMO impacted the locker room;
(3) His getting rid of so many players from the old regime;
(4) His surrendering a 3rd Rounder, which will be the 65th or 66th pick in 2019, for a guy with an injury history who then gets injured on his first day of practice;
(5) While Saquon Barkley is a fantastic player in so many ways, Gettleman's choice should have been QB IMO, or trade down and get more premium picks.
It may turn out that Gettleman's best pick-up (not from the Draft) will be Quadree Henderson... I think this guy is an electric returner.
Shurmur is doing the best he can right now. I like that he’s constantly changing things up and giving the young guys a chance to prove they belong. I think with better talent and more seasons of being able to pick his guys, he’ll be a better HC.
Eli entered into an impossible situation and his inherent optimism hurt him this year. People said he had no more excuses this year with all his weapons, but really, the Oline is still a mess and his weapons have been as inconsistent as he has been. I’m saddened by this ending for him because many have simply decided it’s his turn to fall on the sword. But not disappointed with any of them. Sympathetic and immensely impatient? Yes.
My thoughts exactly!
I didn't like:
(1) His free agency pick-ups (Solder, Stewert; Omameh; Latimer);
(2) His dumping lots of players after final cut-down day, which IMO impacted the locker room;
(3) His getting rid of so many players from the old regime;
(4) His surrendering a 3rd Rounder, which will be the 65th or 66th pick in 2019, for a guy with an injury history who then gets injured on his first day of practice;
(5) While Saquon Barkley is a fantastic player in so many ways, Gettleman's choice should have been QB IMO, or trade down and get more premium picks.
It may turn out that Gettleman's best pick-up (not from the Draft) will be Quadree Henderson... I think this guy is an electric returner.
A bad GM hire that is no reacting to poor execution on his part. They should use this bad season to dump him and Shurmur and reboot this mother with some innovative young guys around a new QB.
I thought he had enough left. He doesn't. And it's not his fault, it is what it is.
Cant go with Gettlemen. In your first year on a job, your mistakes will show themselves immediately and your successes usually take a little longer to shine.
I don't think we know exactly yet what Shumer's system can produce due to this shitshow of a season, which I think he's handled as well as anyone can.
adequate OL. But I think my bigger disappointment has been Schurmer. I really thought better coaching could get us past some of the obvious shortcomings. Play calling, clock management, player under-utilization, the two point conversion call??? etc, etc
I'll say Gettleman because his usage of resources has been terrible. His free agent signings and trades are about as bad as they can be. There are some moves he has made that I actually think downgraded the team even further.
His draft however, looks more promising.
Watch him have better games now with Brown taking over at RG and Greco moving back to C.
No LT could play well with this crap going on in the interior.
Ask any pro OL including David Diehl.
It’s 80-90% of the problem.
In comment 14163926 dep026 said:
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
Solder was my answer tot he question, before I read the choices. With that being said, the whole OL deserves the honor IMO.
It feel's McHandley all over again .
Only question one pick in the draft that being Lauletta
I though O-line should have been the choice since we have
no depth. Nobody foresaw Soldier playing this poorly or
even Omameh being as bad as he has been .
With a decent Oline I doubt Eli would be in the conversation
Then there is Shurmur very uninspiring choice . Also the choice to switch the defense to 3-4 when we have not much
in the way of linebackers but I liked the Ogletree . The next draft and season shold tell us a bit more on DG I don't have much faith in Shurmur period ..If they continue to play poorly in pre-season and falter early next season he should be replaced .
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
Gettleman? How can you be disappointed? This roster was fucking terrible. Terrible. What options did he have in this offseason to make this line better? Did you want Hart and Flowers to start again? You lost out on your #1 target in Norwell. So you go after Solder. His tape isn't bad, and it's definitely no where near what he is showing this year.
You want to nail him for Omameh, Latimer and Stewart? Eh. Go for it, but those are all small time signings in the long run.
I liked his draft. Solid solid draft. And any man who fires Ross is a man that gets some latitude.
You know what I love the best? Getting rid of trash and not trying to save it. Clear and decisive. I like how we don't have players on scholarship and and not afraid to change. THATS real front office leadership.
To those that think he could have changed things around in year 1 are imbeciles. Did you really buy into his speeches of competing? Please. Might as well tell fans not to buy tickets.
As for Shurmer? Some of his staff was questionable and some of his time management is questionable so if I had to pick one, I'd say Shurmer. But not that much of disappointment due to the shit show he walked in on. The whole roster is changing week to week.
I'll give him another chance.
Cant blame Shurmur this team sucks
Eli was done last year. Can't blame him either.
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
I agree with this 100 percent. But of the original three it's Shurmur
Eli is not a disappointment. A good player on a poor team.
2. OL
3. Ownership for not firing Reese earlier.
Not fond of his dismissal of analytics.
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
https://wfan.radio.com/articles/news/dave-gettleman-wfan-giants-had-very-reasonable-offer-no-2-pick
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
Stewart, Omameh and Martin have been highly suspect as well.
Not fond of the Lauletta pick, the team had bigger needs in the 4th.
Seems the team didn't do their homework on MacIntosh...
On the other hand:
The rest of his draft seems good
Realizing that it was time to tear the team down and rebuild, and having the guts to do it is good. Although, I thought it should have been done when he got the job.
Shurmer was handed a 55 gallon drum of shit and asked to make something of it. While, he has not always acquitted himself, for now he gets a pass...
Eli, is what he is... But realize that he was made into what he is, he wasn't always this way.
2. OL
3. Ownership for not firing Reese earlier.
I disagree with the approach DG had, but 1-7 is awful. I see no improvement at all. I see lousy clock management. I’m unsure if he has a commanding presence. There doesn’t seem to be any scheming around deficiencies. What is his overall coaching record? 11-30?
I don’t care about the owner, GM or QB - 1-7 is awful. Add in the fact that we have “generational” talents at WR & RB. The Giants don’t have the only bad OL in football.
Quote:
1.Reese
2. OL
3. Ownership for not firing Reese earlier.
+100
These choices were not given... but yeah, can't argue with them...
I disagree with the approach DG had, but 1-7 is awful. I see no improvement at all. I see lousy clock management. I’m unsure if he has a commanding presence. There doesn’t seem to be any scheming around deficiencies. What is his overall coaching record? 11-30?
I don’t care about the owner, GM or QB - 1-7 is awful. Add in the fact that we have “generational” talents at WR & RB. The Giants don’t have the only bad OL in football.
No the Giants are not the only team with a bad OL...
But they are the team with the worst... And by a wide margin. If you look at this OLine and don't realize that it is historically bad, then you don't know anything about offensive line, and probably not much about football.
If you are simply relying on PFF, or FO for your evaluation, you are missing the mark by a wide margin. This is the worst run blocking team, AND the worst pass blocking team. The ONLY reason it doesn't look as bad as it really is, is because Eli gets the ball out a full .4 seconds faster than ANY OTHER QB in the league. If he waited that extra .4 seconds, the sack numbers would be on a record pace.
Play call selection: I get the line blows, but the play calling isn't doing anyone any favors. Doesn't seem to be calling plays to neutralize the poor line, like screens, until obvious downs like 3rd and long. Bettcher, on the other hand, seems to be doing more with less talent.
Play call selection: I get the line blows, but the play calling isn't doing anyone any favors. Doesn't seem to be calling plays to neutralize the poor line, like screens, until obvious downs like 3rd and long. Bettcher, on the other hand, seems to be doing more with less talent.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
Safe to say there aren't many redeeming qualities thus far. But I'd imagine it difficult for an offensive coach to squeeze offense out of a line that is getting his all-world RB hit behind the line on the majority of his carries and a 37 year old QB who obviously cannot overcome the garbage in front of him.
If you're going to go with Pat Shurmur and expect offense - he's going to need a QB and a passable OL.
I can take him or leave him at this point. I just don't know how much more anyone expects any coach to get out of this offense given the personnel we're working with.
Skill players don't matter if you can't open up running lanes or protect the QB at all.
He simply does not seem to have a point of view on how to win over time so its all dependent on people echoing their confirmation bias to him
As for Solder, i honestly dont know if he is being asked to cover to the inside gap so hernandez can cover to the center gap on the thesis that Eli gets more time if the inside holds and the centers are the first and biggest vulnerability of the line? Is his arm badly hurt but there is no one else?
We do not know enough to fully understand his results.
Of the three Id say DG. I just did not see the alarm bells on the OL that matches the OL situation. This is not hard. we ended last year with no real even close to average LT, RG, Center, LG or RT. Much less any average depth. Think about that. Everyone knew that. How did we hid the BBGOFO ( Big Blinding Glimpse of the Fucking Obvious) in plain sight from ourselves from DG on down? I have no idea.
PATdestrian Shurmur was a very weak hire. Thinking Eli Manning could be dominate again and signing garbage players while giving away good ones has looked very bad so far.
Eli ? He's the greatest QB in Giants history. His ability to engineer comebacks, work with less than stellar OL's and RB's may be among the best in NFL history. But now he's done. He should have retired last year just as Archie hinted he should. Its painful to watch him now, but like many fading star athletes he doesn't realize that he can no longer get it done. I can't blame him for that. I blame the owner who can't make a tough decision.
Shurmer ? The only mistake he made was taking this job to begin with. He was set up for failure from day 1. He's been saddled with a QB who has nothing left, a backup QB, Webb who was no damned good an an OL that is 4/5 no good. With the right material he may have been a good coach. Unfortunately for him, I don't think he's going to be around long enough for us to find out.
And it's impossible to evaluate Joe Namath, Dan Marino, or Eli Manning behind the worst OL in high school history.
Why again did we hire this guy?
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
Great post Red Dog.
Eli
Dg
Coach
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
The fact that the “hand of god comment” bothers some of you so much is mind blowing. And instead of it being a tongue and cheek comment (which was its intent) it’s now bringing religion into it. Dramatic or no?
The blocking from the interior line and RBs is the worst part of our current pass game. Eli has no pocket to step up into.
The answer is easily Gettleman.
Gettleman was hired by Accorsi because he believed, after only watching one game, that Eli still had the goods.
Gettleman drafted Barkley instead of a QB. There were other RB solutions in the draft.
Gettleman hired Shurmur, who makes me long for the days of McAdoo.
Gettleman drinks the "Giants Way" kool-aid.
Gettleman approaches modern day football like Ted Kaczymiski.
Re Eli: I don't know how to gauge what he's doing. He was sacked 31 times in 8 games. That's ridiculous. Yet on the other hand he's getting criticized for dumping the ball off too much. Should he stand in the pocket and wait for slow-developing long passes? Usually, when he tries that, he gets sacked. I don't think any QB -- mobile or not -- would be playing well under these conditions. Might someone else do better? Maybe. He hasn't been all that accurate when he has been able to get the ball out. The offense rarely looks crisp; other teams often look sharp and efficient even when they're losing. The one constant over the years of mediocre and bad regular seasons is Eli. I love the guy but it's true.
Re Gettleman: Talks a great game, seems to have nailed the draft, will look even better if Beal and McIntosh pan out. (I think both are long shots, but I'd love to be wrong about that.) The O-line fiasco and the general suckitude of the free agent signings makes his first off-season a wash. But the guy was fighting cancer, too. Maybe he should have stepped aside, but what's past is past.
Here's one thing I give Gettleman and Shurmur some credit for: They've been aggressive about getting rid of guys who won't be part of the solution (Apple, Flowers, Snacks) and about churning the bottom of the roster. They seem to be decisive about making changes, even if some of those changes are going to hurt in the short term. They said all the right things about a clean slate, etc. but when they've seen a problem, they've taken action. The one big exception is Eli's play, but getting rid of Eli isn't addition by subtraction. If there were an upgrade available, I think they'd make the move. There really isn't. Nobody's an upgrade if the line is this bad.
Eli is who I thought he is.
Gettleman has been shit with the exception of what looks like a few solid draft picks. I don’t count Saquon among those because he passed on players of greater value, including (and especially) the QBs.
Going for 2 against Atlanta was actually a call that made sense - people are getting on him for that unjustly.
I agree with the going for the two call, my point was, that if you are going to play the percentages game, you can't just pick and choose when to when to do it. It should be a part of you game plan going forward. For instance, taking a chance on a long field goal instead of punting, etc.
To me going for two in that situation and not leveraging similar, high-probability, non-scoring situations would be equivalent to employing the shift once in baseball, it not working and then never going back to it again. The reason the shift works is if you regularly implement it. More often than not, it will work.
So to see Shurmur not implement that in the redskins game was disappointing; eschewing the long field goal attempt, etc.
Eli got us two rings; he's 37 years old and sick and tired of having a sieve of an OL for the last 5 years. Yes his play has dropped off, but Eli of 10 years ago wouldn't have fared much better with the shitty line they've had
Disappointed, no. Ready for him to retire.
But that's the whole thing about the line playing as a unit. Nothing works until everything works. Or, at least, nothing works well until everything works adequately.
His 3rd round picks look pretty good, but he took a running back with the #2 pick and the 2nd round pick while good basically anyone on BBI would have made, everyone wanted Hernandez.
DG's comments about analytics are scary as fuck. Bringing religion into why he drafted a player is also scary as fuck.
His age (and health) also are a huge issue. How can you expect someone his age and with his health to be looking even 5 years down the road?
Everything they did in the off-season was geared towards another run with Eli and anyone who believed this team could compete this year should no longer be employed by the Giants. Mara can't fire himself but everyone else should go
This.
Then the Shurminator. Is there real evidence thus far he’s really an upgrade over McAdoo? I really don’t see a discernible difference between the two with regard to the on the field product.
Not fond of his dismissal of analytics.
Not fond of his joking about hotdogs and a bag of doughnuts, when apparently he did have reasonable offers (I was in favor of trading back)
Quote:
Last week, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman said the only offers he was receiving for the No. 2 pick in the draft were for "a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog."
But speaking to WFAN's "The Afternoon Drive With Carlin, Maggie & Bart" on Monday, Gettleman revealed he did receive "one very reasonable offer."
https://wfan.radio.com/articles/news/dave-gettleman-wfan-giants-had-very-reasonable-offer-no-2-pick
Some really bad FA signings, although I don't blame him for Solder. If he didn't sign him, how could he look Eli in the face and tell him to go out there and win with Flowers protecting his blind side again.
S
How could he have explained his lack of protection on his blindside if he got Norwell instead? Remember DG's 1st attempt was Norwell. It was NOT to protect Eli blindside.
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Remember that almost all of the sub-issues being listed here are because of Dave Gettleman and John Mara.
If you're disappointed in Nate Solder, well.. who decided he was worth that contract?
If you're disappointed in Pat Shurmur, well.. who decided he was the right coach to hire?
If you're disappointed in Eli Manning, well... who decided he still had "years left" ?
It always starts at the top.
You can always blame management when it comes to a shifty toster. But sometimes players have to go do their jobs. Nate Solder was never a the best tackle in the league. But he is sure ain’t one of the worst. But he is playing like it.
And a lot of this shit roster is because of Reese and Ross as well.
If the Roster was so bad as you suggest (Which I agree with) then why do you go after SOlder?
1a--- ANd if you think it was only to protect Eli's blindside why not get someone who was cheaper? WHy get an old LT on a team going nowhere if you know you were going to stink?
1b-- If you are going to use the make believe made up excuse that you needed a an older extremely overpaid LT and that was a logical plan then how can you explain how hard DG went after Norwell 1st? If he got Norwell what was the plan to protect ELi's blindside if that was so important?
The OL mess is on him and that’s enough. It’s the most important unit and he blew it.
Going into the NFL season with no pass rush. 2nd most important unit and we have nothing here except Vernon. Swing and a miss again.
Trading for ogletree and that deal? He’s ok. But we traded to pay him $10 mill for that game? Bad move.
Stewart? It was clear as day that this guy was finished.
Who did he have scouting the existing NFL talent and FA? That crew blew it.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
I didn't have big expectations of Eli, he's been declining the past two seasons and it has continued, even accelerated.
Everything about that process was a disappointment, from the bringing in of Toupee Ernie as a "consultant" to the phony "GM search" to the hiring of the least inspiring candidate possible.
I don't give a shit if the guy is methuselah if he knows how to assemble a good roster.
Think of Gettleman as a consultant brought in to be the "bad guy".
He took this job full well knowing his role was.to.come.in, trim allmof the fat and move on in 3-4 years. He is the doctor tasked with giving this team the enema it needed.
This is the worst logic I've heard when discussing Gettleman.
They needed a bad guy? You think that any other GM couldn't come in and purge the roster for fear he'd develop a reputation?
The NFL is notorious for constant roster churn/turnover. No GM would have a hard time coming in and pulling the trigger on a bunch of guys who were underperforming and brought in by the previous GM.
3. Shurmur
I think it's hard to evaluate Shurmur and specifically his offense because of how bad Eli is. Yes, the OL has been awful, but as those who break down film have illustrated, there have been several instances each game where Eli missed plays despite good protection. And some of them (e.g goalline rollout that should've went to Beckham) were not difficult reads/throws. Shurmur drew up and called a great play there. Eli failed to execute.
Love DG's 1st draft, but obviously disappointed with some of his FA signings. Probably less so the Solder signing than most, but the Stewart/Omameh/Martin signings made no sense on any level.
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
But I think I will go with Shurmer.
I don't like or understand a lot of what DG did but I think we have to give him a few years to turn over and build this roster. and I do like that he has been active and not afraid to make moves.
Eli is Eli. Personally I would have moved on a few years ago. I had hopes that we could catch lightening in a bottle this year with some decent line play (which we didn't get), all the weapons, and our new HC who is a supposed QB/offensive genius. Alas, that didn't happen... but since it was just hope to begin with, I can't really be that disappointed.
But I expected PS to come in here and change the culture of losing... show something creative... use our skill players in new and interesting ways... get the team to be better than the sum of its parts. Instead... we may as well be watching Ben McAdoo in disguise.
I have real concerns about him being the guy to lead us out of the doldrums. and that is disappointing.
The organization needed an enema. There's the initial gusher of shit, like a firehose of explosive diarrhea for a season, then things get better, then MUCH better.
We're still at the explosive diarrhea phase, so cut them some slack.
Remember, Bill Parcells had a season like this.
The first two picks were good - we were picking 2nd overall.
Hill seems like a keeper - but another in a long line of solid if unspectacular interior defensive linemen. This is one area that the Giants have done well in for quite some time.
Beyond that - there's nothing. Lorenzo Carter has potential, but it's just that, potential. McIntosh hasn't taken the field, the 4th round pick isn't likely going to play this year either. And that's a draft with high picks and 2 third rounders.
Superstar (Barkley)
Potential pro-bowler (Hernandez)
Starter (Hill)
Depth/potential starter (Carter)
Unknowns:
McIntosh
Lauletta
Compare that to our recent drafts where we basically got 1 maybe 2 long term starters. From 2010-2015, these are the players taken in the 2nd round or later that started multiple games:
Linval - obviously a great pick
Jacquian Williams
Rueben Randle
Hankins - another great pick
Kennard
Richburg
Collins
Hart - does starting by default count?
As good as the draft picks are shaking up to be, he fundamentally failed in free agency. Worst of all, his OL signings have been horrific. Him getting us to an average (or a freaking slightly below average OL) would enable both Shurmur & Eli to have a chance.
As a side note, I wonder if this band of bumblers even considered interviewing, say, Matt Nagy, or if they would have gone after Sean McVay if he were available during their search. I just can't see it.
Eli hasn't been good this year, but his performance hasn't approached the depths of the other two.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta. Moreover, selecting Webb does not cost the Giants a roster spot because Tanney's roster spot is expendable under any conceivable circumstance.
He's an immobile QB behind perhaps the most embarrassing offensive line in the league. 45% of runs go for 1 yard or less and the pass-protection gets beat on the regular by 4-man rushes.
Of course a more mobile QB would be a better fit here. But to be disappointed in Eli for not being mobile suggests that there was an expectation that he would or could be mobile.
Has he missed some throws? Of course (note: every QB in the league misses throws. They just get several more opportunities to compensate for them).
But for him to be the #1 disappointment on the team? Strange times.
Highest paid tackle in the league and playing worse than Ereck Flowers.
Winner!!!
His draft I love. Trading for Ogletree, trading JPP I am good with.
Signing Solder I understand we needed to get a Left Tackle.
The issues I have are letting Fluker leave but signing Omameh, signing Stewart, ignoring the Center position as this should have been a priority in FA or the draft. Keeping Flowers and Apple were short leash moves that I wish were made prior to the season.
Eli needs a pocket to step up into and a running game to take pressure off. Dropping back 40 + times a game was gonna get him killed.
That said, I didn't expect to have the whole thing fixed in one season. I did expect Shurmur and Eli to both be better than they have been but I think most of the issues this team is having is a direct result of the state of the O Line, so Gettlemen said he would fix the line....it ain't fixed.
Reese deserves most of the blame here, but he wasn't listed as an option.
(2) Eli Manning (I think a veteran QB, again, even considering the lack of talent on the OL, should be able to do more)
(3) Dave Gettleman (very positive grade on his draft; negative on his free agent acquisitions)
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doesn't say anything to you, then the real issue is your personal feelings about Webb.
Your analysis is incorrect. Teams select players from other team's practice squads because they think they can help their team win now. For the Giants to select Webb and release Tanney is not the same thing. The Giants are going nowhere this year. It makes perfect sense to trial both Webb and Lauletta.
Not if the coaching staff doesn't think there's something worth developing. Given that A) They promptly identified and drafted a QB to their liking & B) Ditched Webb at the first opportunity, it's a safe conclusion to make that they did not.
Quote:
He's the real problem and has been for years.
Of the trio listed to choose from, Shurmur. I am disappointed in some of his coaching hires and the overall performance of his team, particularly the offense.
Great post Red Dog.
He wasn't one of the choices.
How is this question so difficult for some of you to understand?
There are three choices in this thread. Gettleman, Shurmur or Eli.
If you want to start another thread with different options, please do so. Good lord. Pay attention!
Who in their right mind ever thought that the Giants would be better in 2018?
What did the FO do to significantly justify such baloney? I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the Maras across the board.
I wish they sold the franchise. They deserve the disdain of the fans. What is needed is empty seats, no merchandise sales and no gambling. And a plane flying over the stadium with a banner. Then perhaps the Maras will sell out. I can only dream.