Knowing what we know now...
We might have one offensive lineman playing passably (Hernandez)
Solder has been a massive disappointment. Omameh has been awful and was already benched. Spencer Pulley sucks. John Greco is an "okay" center at best. He can't play RG. Chad Wheeler has been horrendous. He gets thrown around like a ragdoll by edge rushers and DE's.
Our QB is 37 years old, is obviously not able to overcome what's in front of him right now, has declined, and may be in his last season.
We have a guy who might be the best RB in football, who gets routinely hit behind or at the LOS. On virtually every carry, there's no running lane. He has to make things happen himself by breaking the first tackle, bouncing outside, or finding room where there isn't much.
We have a top tier WR and pretty good slot WR, but teams are literally just keeping safeties deep, and either jamming at the line or giving 10 yard cushions - inviting us to throw WR screens or short passes that don't go anywhere. When defenses play off our WR's, by the time Odell even eats the cushion, there's usually pressure on Eli already.
This isn't another "is it the OL or is it Eli?" thread. It's both.
The question is... if we're evaluating Pat Shurmur right now, what do we realistically expect him to get out of this offense this year?
I think he deserves criticism just like anyone else on a 1-7 football team. But I think it's also fair to ask how much more than this we should realistically expect from the offense given the personnel and shortcomings.
Forget clock management or timeout usage or any of that right now. Just focusing on the offense - knowing the personnel we have here - where would you expect them to rank by seasons' end?
As it stands now, we are 27th in point scored and 21st in yards.
We are dead last in rush attempts - but we are 19th in YPC.
We are 11th in pass yards, but 29th in pass TD's.
We haven't been terrible turning the ball over. We are 13th in the league with 11.
We've been pretty disciplined in terms of penalties. We have the 7th fewest per game so far.
So - the question is, how much better should an offense with the holes this one has actually be?
I agree but there is something else going on here. It is intangible and I cannot put my finger on it but something is rotten. There are a lot of negative vibes coming off of this offense and even with all of the positive energy that Barkley is bringing. It seems like they step on the field defeated.
But if we think the line is so bad that we can't run any sort of productive offense until i gets better.... then I guess I'm wondering how much blame should really fall at the feet of the coach.
He didn't choose the personnel. He's shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic with this OL - we're probably going to have Jamon Brown starting as soon as next week. And we just claimed him.
I see a lot of people criticizing Shurmur - and some of it is deserved. But the thing is... if you look at the players here, especially up front on this OL - how can anyone run a productive offense with this? Would it be any better with a different coach?
so true ...
The best hope for the offense is that Barkley/Odell break a few plays a game. This isn't an offense that can move the chains. It's going to be more dependent on individual effort/opposing team breakdowns than anything else.
The best players need to get involved as much as possible. We saw some creativity in the Carolina game and it yielded 31 points. Need to see more of that.
The best hope for the offense is that Barkley/Odell break a few plays a game. This isn't an offense that can move the chains. It's going to be more dependent on individual effort/opposing team breakdowns than anything else.
I agree - a lot of good things are happening when we split Saquon out wide.
It sounds counterproductive, but going empty when you cant pass protect actually can work. You're forcing the defense to use more DB's and play lighter and you're pulling bodies off the LOS.
We've had a lot of success with Barkley lined up wide - I'd definitely go to that more.
The best players need to get involved as much as possible. We saw some creativity in the Carolina game and it yielded 31 points. Need to see more of that.
Totally agree, in fact Macadoo did a much better job getting the ball to Odell during the 2016 season than Shurmur is currently doing. The line sucks and he makes changes, but he doesn’t change his playcallingor formations. Eli under center with a 3 step drop would help getting the ball out. This nonstop shotgun stuff is not working.
I am not trying to stick up for Macadoo he sucked, but Shurmur has shown me very little to feel confident about as well.
Also, if you know you have OL issues, why not try to minimize the problem? Run more screens. Run more shallow crossing routes. Design some runs so Barkley is running off tackle.
I just don’t see much schematically to cover an obvious weakness.
Also, if you know you have OL issues, why not try to minimize the problem? Run more screens. Run more shallow crossing routes. Design some runs so Barkley is running off tackle.
I just don’t see much schematically to cover an obvious weakness.
Barkley is already on pace for like 100+ catches. I know a lot of them are dumps and not designed screens - but I'm not sure how much that would help.
I'm sure we'd like to run off tackle more - but we can't do it to the right side because Chad Wheeler can't block anyone.
Solder has been a good run blocker in the past - I'd like to see some more off tackle runs called to the left. A toss/sweep here and there wouldn't kill us.
We've been running a lot of shallow routes. We have to get the ball down the field. Defenses just aren't letting us.
Also, if you know you have OL issues, why not try to minimize the problem? Run more screens. Run more shallow crossing routes. Design some runs so Barkley is running off tackle.
I just don’t see much schematically to cover an obvious weakness.
How about some misdirection? Get the Oline flowing one way and pitch the ball back to Barkley going the other way. There’s, of course many variations, but we can’t just let the Defense line up and take us out if our game at the snap!
It was a pretty even game, but the Giants defense were punishing the Bengals most of the game. Carson Palmer was getting hit on every play, it seemed. Palmer's throwing elbow was injured.
It seemed that the Giants were just about ready to wave bye-bye. Then at the half, the Bengals put in a max protect, and the Giants couldn't get at Palmer. The Giants finally won in OT.
Similarly, I think that is the only way to salvage anything this season - max protect our QB and running back; I mean SIX offensive linemen on every play.
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The OL is a problem but his RZ playcalling has been atrocious.
Also, if you know you have OL issues, why not try to minimize the problem? Run more screens. Run more shallow crossing routes. Design some runs so Barkley is running off tackle.
I just don’t see much schematically to cover an obvious weakness.
Barkley is already on pace for like 100+ catches. I know a lot of them are dumps and not designed screens - but I'm not sure how much that would help.
I'm sure we'd like to run off tackle more - but we can't do it to the right side because Chad Wheeler can't block anyone.
Solder has been a good run blocker in the past - I'd like to see some more off tackle runs called to the left. A toss/sweep here and there wouldn't kill us.
We've been running a lot of shallow routes. We have to get the ball down the field. Defenses just aren't letting us.
I see a lot of slants but not a lot of shallow crossing routes.
I don’t see much creativity in route concepts to get guys open.
RZ playcalling has been terrible. Too many sweeps/edge plays and too many passing plays into traffic.
I’m not minimizing the poor play of the OL as I’m one of the biggest proponents here of the need to invest in the OL. But I just don’t see much from Shurmur adapting to the situation.
It was a pretty even game, but the Giants defense were punishing the Bengals most of the game. Carson Palmer was getting hit on every play, it seemed. Palmer's throwing elbow was injured.
It seemed that the Giants were just about ready to wave bye-bye. Then at the half, the Bengals put in a max protect, and the Giants couldn't get at Palmer. The Giants finally won in OT.
Similarly, I think that is the only way to salvage anything this season - max protect our QB and running back; I mean SIX offensive linemen on every play.
It won’t help
6 shitty OL < 5 good OL
It's not like solder was horrible last year. Now he is. Teams play with no name and backup offensive lineman all the time.
It's not possible to answers these questions definitively, but I think they're legitimate considerations. I guess it's possible that everyone just sucks and that makes it impossible to have even a moderately functional offense. maybe that's true. maybe there are other factors
He allowed 51 pressures. His run blocking was a bit better, but his pass pro was not good.
At age 30, he should have a couple of good years left - but we also hired an OL coach with basically no recent success, which I don't understand at all.
I think he deserves a good deal of criticism. But when I look at the personnel, the trouble we have in pass pro, the trouble we have creating running lanes, the plays Eli has missed... I also wonder how fair it is to pile all of it on him.
How many more wins could a different coach squeeze out of this situation? Is there a similar situation somewhere else in the league where a team is still overcoming this?
If we fire him after one year, so be it - but just like when we switched DC's in 2014-15 and brought Spagnoulo back, I said the defense was still going to be very bad until we improved the personnel. Sure enough, we fielded a historically poor defense in 2015 - spent a shitload of money on that side of the ball that offseason, and then magically, the defense was top 5.
Coaching is super important in this league - but so is personnel.
It's probably really hard to coach an offense when they can't block anything and the QB doesn't have the ability to overcome that.
Also, if you know you have OL issues, why not try to minimize the problem? Run more screens. Run more shallow crossing routes. Design some runs so Barkley is running off tackle.
I just don’t see much schematically to cover an obvious weakness.
This. He was supposed to a good mind who would work w what he had. He’s as dogmatic as McAdoo was. Yeah the OL is a shit show but he’s coaching like it isn’t
you dont notice a difference in how teams defend us?
None of this should be a surprise to anybody paying attention. I said it before and after the draft. This line would be marginally better than last year, if at all. Turns out its worse.
How many year of this have we seen?
With an OL this bad, this is what you get.
Play calling wont fix this.
Scheme wont fix this.
Only fixing the OL will fix this.
However, I think its fair to question the job Hal Hunter is doing. Pretty much all these guys have performed better under other OL coaches.
Having said that I believe the odds are against that actually happening. What a sad state of affairs on the offensive side of the ball.
Not one player - on any side of good or bad, based on how you view them - has performed better than they did last season.
That should sound an alarm. Look at what happened in LA - Jeff Fisher was there, and they were putrid. Bring in a real coach, and the turnaround is night and day.
Well, out goes McAdoo - in a season where he completely lost the team, where injuries took a flawed unit and magnified it 100x, and he's replaced by Shurmur - who with some changes to the roster and some guys back healthy and two very high draft picks - somehow manages to have just as bad if not worse performance on that side of the ball?
Something is rotten from inside of Giants HQ. It was before the turnover, and it seems to still be there. I didn't have great expectations for this team, so this isn't just some severe disappointment causing a reaction. I figured 6-10 - a flawed team needing some time to adapt to a new system and a roster rebuild. But I did figure at least a few guys would look to turn a corner, to start playing better, and to cast a little light toward the future. No such luck.
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Oddell hasn't been breaking anything for a long TD. He used to outright win us several games a year we otherwise would have lost.
you dont notice a difference in how teams defend us?
It would be good to understand Odell's YAC this year vs. previous years. While teams can tee off on Eli/Saquon with apparently only 4 people since our OL sucks and put the rest in the secondary, I still don't see the Odell who can just hits the afterburners after making a catch.
Frankly I didn't expect it this year anyway - it is his first back from injury. Probably will be mentally ready to go next season.
Slide him to RG, and that may help solidify the OL a bit. Solder has always been a finesse LT, better at sliding the ER back in the pocket than stoning them, and that requires his guards to prevent their guys from penetrating. Hernandez has been better there lately, and a Hernandez/Brown G tandem could help the run game.
So, what to do? Play to Eli’s strength, not his weakness. Send out Beckham (always option 1), use a second WR or TE, and try to use Barkley in the passing game. Beckham and Barkley are the real playmakers so they should be the first and second options. Shepard and Engram can’t be relied upon anyway. Everyone else, whether using a FB or second TE will be part of max protection.
And when it is called for, RUN the ball with the best RB in football.
If he doesn't at least TRY those types of plays, this offense is what it will be in 2018. No OL miracles are coming from within ...