I think it's important to state that these guys are competing to be the best QB of htis generation. Its really unfair to compare them to the greats of other eras when the game has changed so much. You cannot hit QB's anymore. You can't play defense anymore. The game is geared towards QB's in this era.
My answer is simple..Brady. This conversation sounds a lot like Brady vs Peyton from 5-10 years ago. That's why my answer is Brady. The guy has been doing it for a really long time. It's like in baseball, there were plenty of closers that had better seasons than Mo, but when you look back, was Eric Gagne better than Mo? No because Mo did it for so long. Brady's longevity and success is second to none and that means something. I would agree that Rodgers is more physically gifted, but as of now, the answer is easily Brady.
You also can't discredit the winning, that's kinda important. To suggest that its all BB and then reference one season in which they won a bunch of regular season games(how'd that postseason go?) with a backup is just silly. It's like choosing Romo over Eli. Romo is more physically gifted, but Eli got it done when it mattered most.
He's an all time great. But he doesn't win all those rings in any other uniform.
As I said, everyone makes the plays the Pats need to win, not just Brady. You say the defense is bad, but even when the defense isn't a strength statistically, they still make the plays they need. Their wins and losses are not one guy carrying them. Special teams, defensive secondary, running backs, receivers, Oline, whoever. In those key situations that decide football games, the men in Pats uniforms make the plays. Period.
That's what I see.
Did you watch the Super Bowl last year? That painful, awful Super Bowl?
the Patriots D got shredded. Brady shredded the Eagles D.
In the end there was no play by the Patriots D.
You are talking about one game, LOL. A game they lost I'm not sure how this contradicts my point. So Brady doesn't win it all on his own? Gee...
That one game was obviously one example because you stated you always see someone on defense stepping up to make a play. It also just happened to be the biggest game and the reason you play all the others. LOL.
We had this debate 1-2 years ago on here when it was about Eli > Brees. Talk was about Eli’s numbers in a dome (not much better than outside dome) and Brees outside and in cold. His Completion %, Td to Int, and QB rating was still HOF stuff in all of those road games.
Aren't the greatest ever supposed to elevate everyone around them regardless of the situation?
That's what I've been told over and over and over again here on this forum.
Now we're saying Rodgers can't win because he never had the best scoring defense? I didn't read the whole thread, but is that what is being said?
Not for nothing, but in 2011 we went in to Green Bay, who was 15-1 and Rodgers was the MVP, and beat them at home in the playoffs.
Our scoring defense was ranked 25th.
And as argued that when the Packers did have a great defense they won the Superbowl.... They were also a Desean Jackson miracle punt return against the Giants from not making the playoffs at all. Now I'm not about "if's and but's", but it's not like they were some dominate sure thing to win the Superbowl because all the sudden their defense was good and that was the tipping point.
I'm not arguing that Rodgers isn't great, but c'mon. That argument goes against everything claimed here for years.
The context of those statements were about where the credit is deserved for the Pats success. And we are talking about a history of over 10 years, so discussing one game is absurd. Not to mention that Tom Brady did not get credit for winning, because they didnt win. The fact that the Defense didn't come through and led to their losing supports the argument that the Pats success is a full team effort, not all Brady brilliance.
The Patriots have done it in so many ways over the years. Sometimes the defense has been the strength, many times it has been the offense. And you can't just look at generic stats like yardage ranking. That is the whole point --that's how everyone else looks at things, but not how the Patriots operate. It's exactly why everyone concludes the Pats don't have good wide receivers because they don't win yardage trophies and make probowls. But if you watch how the Pats win games, their wide receivers are fatnastic at doign the things BB needs them to do. Hanging on to that critical 3rd down catch over the middle as a linebacker tried to decapitate you won't win anyone's fantasy league for them, but that's exactly how the Patriots win football games.
That 2011 defense also shut down Brady in the SB Â
Is excellent. He’s lower than in a Done but they’re also all away games. But his numbers are HOF level playing outside. Same with cold weather.
No he’s not. He’s also blown a few SB shots with below expectation performances in road playoff games.
Which one's were they supposed to win that he blew?
The Saints playoff L's after winning their Super Bowl:
2010 at Seattle (defense gives up 41)
2011 at San Francisco (Brees drives for the game leading TD with 1:37 left, but the defense allows Alex Smith to drive for the W in the last seconds to face the Giants in the NFC Title Game)
NOTE - I contend to this day if the Saints hold on to win, they go back to the Super Bowl because they would have beaten the Giants the next week.
2013 at Seattle - Seattle great defense at home shuts them down similar to what happened in a previous game weeks earlier. Not unexpected.
2017 at Minnesota - Game was won until the final play when the defender brain cramped and Diggs ran for the walkoff TD.
Which one of these should Brees have carried them to victory? 2 of the 4 games they had the lead with 20 SECONDS REMAINING only to take the L.
Rodgers carries guys on his back. He makes guys like Cobb, Nelson and the rest. He makes the OL. He elevates the okay of his offensive unit as good as anybody ever.
Even this year, while injured, and a lot of his offensive guys hurt he has a 15 to 1 TD to INT rate.
Rodgers carries guys on his back. He makes guys like Cobb, Nelson and the rest. He makes the OL. He elevates the okay of his offensive unit as good as anybody ever.
Even this year, while injured, and a lot of his offensive guys hurt he has a 15 to 1 TD to INT rate.
He isn’t carrying this team and elevating guys?
This is a comparison of Rodgers to Brady, is it not?
is only on the field for 45% of the plays, and when he's on the field, he depends on 10 other guys. QB records are overrated.
Last night, I saw two great QBs make some great throws, miss some throws, and I saw two QBs have protection that would have been a wet dream for Eli over the last few years. It seemed like the only time they were under pressure was when the defenses blitzed, leaving favorable match-ups for the receivers.
I saw two QBs hand the ball off 47 combined times, and only one one time did the run go for negative yards (and it was for -1 yard). Meanwhile over 14% of Barkley's runs go for negative yards.
---------------------------
I thought Rodgers was better last night. The difference in the game was Aaron Jones fumbling, the roughing the kicker, and the Patriots working more cleverly with Patterson as a RB and the flea-flicker-- all things that are reflective more of Belichick getting his guys to "do their jobs" better than McCarthy got his guys to do so.
RE: That 2011 defense also shut down Brady in the SB Â
I find it hysterical how you give the Giants defense all the props for 2011 postseason and saying how great they were yet never mention how NO's defense dominated in their Title run. Shutting down Peyton in the SB including a pick 6. forcing 5 TOs in a the NFC Championship game. Shutting down Warner/Fitzgerald in the first round.
Why dont you say NO's defense carried them to a title like the 2011 Giants did?
But I saw Montana in his prime, when QBs could get hit (see the hits he took against Jim Burt and Leonard Marshall - unlike this era which is embarrassingly soft), and he was astonishingly great. To this day, despite not having the huge arm, he was the best long ball thrower I have ever seen. The guy always seemed to hit Rice, Taylor, Clark, Solomon, etc in stride. He is why that team was always so great in YAC.
Brady is a great one trick pony - in the pocket. Montana was great in and out of the pocket.
Rodgers is Montana with a better arm and even more athleticism. I have no problem assuming that if he played in New England he'd have a few more rings.
In an era where passing stats are retarded...... Â
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
RE: RE: That 2011 defense also shut down Brady in the SB Â
Is excellent. He’s lower than in a Done but they’re also all away games. But his numbers are HOF level playing outside. Same with cold weather.
No he’s not. He’s also blown a few SB shots with below expectation performances in road playoff games.
Which one's were they supposed to win that he blew?
The Saints playoff L's after winning their Super Bowl:
2010 at Seattle (defense gives up 41)
2011 at San Francisco (Brees drives for the game leading TD with 1:37 left, but the defense allows Alex Smith to drive for the W in the last seconds to face the Giants in the NFC Title Game)
NOTE - I contend to this day if the Saints hold on to win, they go back to the Super Bowl because they would have beaten the Giants the next week.
2013 at Seattle - Seattle great defense at home shuts them down similar to what happened in a previous game weeks earlier. Not unexpected.
2017 at Minnesota - Game was won until the final play when the defender brain cramped and Diggs ran for the walkoff TD.
Which one of these should Brees have carried them to victory? 2 of the 4 games they had the lead with 20 SECONDS REMAINING only to take the L.
Brees had 3 turnovers vs Minny last year. Sure the defense blew it, but the fact remains he’s a different guy at home vs on the road. If they played that game in NO last year the Saints win by two scores.
He’s a great QB. But when we’re talking about “the greatest,” I can’t causually dismiss the fact that’s he’s noticeably different on the road. Hell, even the commentators mentioned it in the Rams game.
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
Because they didnt have the ball. And when they did, they moved it quite effectively. When your offense holds the ball for the entire game, its hard for the team to score. Pus, are you giving the defense for a blown coverage and missed passed that would have ended the game? Here are the Giants drives by number of plays.....
10
9
8
7
10
9
10
9
8 drives, all lasting at leas 7 plays. 37:00 minutes worth of possessions. You know where NE started their drives? 16 yard line. I am sorry, but the offense won us the SB, much like they did in SB 25 - by keeping the more explosive offense OFF the field.
If you want to give the defense all the credit, your agenda will remain constant. By if Brady hits a WIDE OPEN Welker.... the game is over and we lose.
RE: RE: RE: That 2011 defense also shut down Brady in the SB Â
It's this talk that he's the greatest football player ever.
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
RE: I tell you what bothers my more about Brady... Â
It's this talk that he's the greatest football player ever.
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
But you're discounting the fact that Brady straddles two different eras in the NFL, and won multiple championships in both.
He won his first three Superbowls in an era that was absolutely more violent, as well as a lot harder to play offensive football where the defenders could mug WR's (pre-Polian Peyton rule changing), a strategy that the Patriots themselves utilized to perfection.
I mean, let's not forget how the Tom Brady era began.... Â
It's this talk that he's the greatest football player ever.
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
But you're discounting the fact that Brady straddles two different eras in the NFL, and won multiple championships in both.
He won his first three Superbowls in an era that was absolutely more violent, as well as a lot harder to play offensive football where the defenders could mug WR's (pre-Polian Peyton rule changing), a strategy that the Patriots themselves utilized to perfection.
Let's be honest - the first SB was more Vinatieri than Brady. The two kicks he made in the snow against the Raiders in the division game were as good as it gets. And the first one courtesy of the tuck rule. And if you remember, Brady didn't play against the Steelers in the AFC Championship game - Bledsoe did. And then Vinatieri made the greatest clutch kick ever in the SB.
But the point of my post was about this narrative of Brady being the GOAT for any position in football. I just can't wrap my head around that on an "athlete" playing a sport who can't run, has no quickness, and isn't a pillar of football strength like a Roethlisberger.
And the defense got a safety and got the ball right back to us. That kind of one play drive can impact a game...and it did!
They had the ball 9 times. Scored on only 3. Our defense got points on one possession. Had an INT on another. And NE failed to come close to their season average of 32+ points/game.
They could not run the ball.
Brady dropped back 45 times for a net of 266 yards passing.
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
Because they didnt have the ball. And when they did, they moved it quite effectively. When your offense holds the ball for the entire game, its hard for the team to score. Pus, are you giving the defense for a blown coverage and missed passed that would have ended the game? Here are the Giants drives by number of plays.....
10
9
8
7
10
9
10
9
8 drives, all lasting at leas 7 plays. 37:00 minutes worth of possessions. You know where NE started their drives? 16 yard line. I am sorry, but the offense won us the SB, much like they did in SB 25 - by keeping the more explosive offense OFF the field.
If you want to give the defense all the credit, your agenda will remain constant. By if Brady hits a WIDE OPEN Welker.... the game is over and we lose.
No one is denying the offense didn't play very well (they would have scored more points if not for that stupid phantom holding call on Boothe), but the defense was tremendous.
NE still had the ball 9 times, and only scored on 3 of them. Brady was only sacked twice, but harassed most of the game (not as much as he was harassed/bit in SB 42, of course).
It was a complete effort What I have an issue is with you saying that the defense did "nothing"
dep's point was that KWALL attributes the Giants runs mainly to the defense, while giving credit to guys like Brees for their runs, even though his defense rose to the occasion as well.
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
you use outcomes that do not meet what actually happen.
1st drive - Brady has a mental error and throws it to the wrong place, not realizing what he was doing was wrong. If thats great defense, our standards have dropped dramatically.
2nd drive - 10 plays, 60 yards FG
3rd drive - 3 and out - good defense
4th drive - 14 plays 96 yards TD.
5th drive - 8 plays - 79 yards.
those two drives ended the half started the 2nd half that put us in a whole.
6th drive - 3 and out - great defense
7th drive - 5 plays, 23 yards - where Brady underthrew an open gronk and blackburn made a pick. great play by Chase, but it was a missed opportunity.
8th drive - 11 play drive punt where Brady missed a wide open Welker that would have ended the game. This is not good defense whatsoever. Again, if need to relay on blown coverage missed passes - the standard is low.
9th drive - Pats go 30 yards before the game ended. So we are now counting this as a stop?
Brady really hurt his team this game and it didnt have to do with a pass rush or great defense. He took a bad safety by not throwing it out of bounds. He missed an open Gronk and he missed a wide open Welker. If this constitutes the defense carrying the team on that day - well your agenda continues.
Ill give the proper credit to the offense and special teams controlling the ball and field position.
dep's point was that KWALL attributes the Giants runs mainly to the defense, while giving credit to guys like Brees for their runs, even though his defense rose to the occasion as well.
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
KWALL never has nor will he ever give Eli credit for anything.
We had this debate 1-2 years ago on here when it was about Eli > Brees. Talk was about Eli’s numbers in a dome (not much better than outside dome) and Brees outside and in cold. His Completion %, Td to Int, and QB rating was still HOF stuff in all of those road games.
Actually, you are the first one to bring up Eli.... but again.... carry on.
RE: RE: Regardless of the one game comparison... Â
dep's point was that KWALL attributes the Giants runs mainly to the defense, while giving credit to guys like Brees for their runs, even though his defense rose to the occasion as well.
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
KWALL never has nor will he ever give Eli credit for anything.
KWALL may (or may not) have an agenda here, but it's pretty clear your Eli narrative is present as well.
It was a team effort, just leave it at that. Geez...
people are acting like rodgers hasnt played with some top end talent for his career. Like every single lineman was trash and he made every WR something out of nothing.
Rodgers is a great, great, great QB. But the fact he has only 1 SB does not put him in the same category as Brady.
RE: RE: RE: Regardless of the one game comparison... Â
Thats more BS. The point was made the 2011 defense stopped Rodgers and that is a knock on Rodgers in a debate of Rodgers vs Brady.
I pointed out the 2011 defense shut down Brady too.
That's bringing up Eli?
Or not giving him credit.
The point was clear. How can you knock Rodgers for his performance against the 2011 defense when Brady didn't do any better vs that same defense?
But this is about Eli in your world.
Actually you brought up Eli earlier in the thread for reasons unknownst to man (I quoted it for you in case you have a hard time reading). I certainly did not. And I didnt refer a single statement about Eli in regards to SB 46. I mentioned the offense and STs which consists of more players than just Eli.
But carry on.... you have insistently gone on for years that the defense carried the Giants in the playoffs. Its a false narrative and by saying the Ginats shut down Brady in the SB (which they did not, which I proved by examples ,stats, and game play action). Your agenda is clear and to be honest..... boring.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Regardless of the one game comparison... Â
I am proving that the defense didn’t “shut down” the Patriots which has been inferred to many times on this thread. I am in belief that the offense and special teams played a larger point in the win. Outside of tuck and chase making a play... out defnese was really non existent. I am not going to give credit to a unit because the other side had colossal fuck ups.
My answer is simple..Brady. This conversation sounds a lot like Brady vs Peyton from 5-10 years ago. That's why my answer is Brady. The guy has been doing it for a really long time. It's like in baseball, there were plenty of closers that had better seasons than Mo, but when you look back, was Eric Gagne better than Mo? No because Mo did it for so long. Brady's longevity and success is second to none and that means something. I would agree that Rodgers is more physically gifted, but as of now, the answer is easily Brady.
You also can't discredit the winning, that's kinda important. To suggest that its all BB and then reference one season in which they won a bunch of regular season games(how'd that postseason go?) with a backup is just silly. It's like choosing Romo over Eli. Romo is more physically gifted, but Eli got it done when it mattered most.
No he’s not. He’s also blown a few SB shots with below expectation performances in road playoff games.
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In comment 14165208 UberAlias said:
Quote:
He's an all time great. But he doesn't win all those rings in any other uniform.
As I said, everyone makes the plays the Pats need to win, not just Brady. You say the defense is bad, but even when the defense isn't a strength statistically, they still make the plays they need. Their wins and losses are not one guy carrying them. Special teams, defensive secondary, running backs, receivers, Oline, whoever. In those key situations that decide football games, the men in Pats uniforms make the plays. Period.
That's what I see.
Did you watch the Super Bowl last year? That painful, awful Super Bowl?
the Patriots D got shredded. Brady shredded the Eagles D.
In the end there was no play by the Patriots D.
You are talking about one game, LOL. A game they lost I'm not sure how this contradicts my point. So Brady doesn't win it all on his own? Gee...
That one game was obviously one example because you stated you always see someone on defense stepping up to make a play. It also just happened to be the biggest game and the reason you play all the others. LOL.
That's what I've been told over and over and over again here on this forum.
Now we're saying Rodgers can't win because he never had the best scoring defense? I didn't read the whole thread, but is that what is being said?
Not for nothing, but in 2011 we went in to Green Bay, who was 15-1 and Rodgers was the MVP, and beat them at home in the playoffs.
Our scoring defense was ranked 25th.
And as argued that when the Packers did have a great defense they won the Superbowl.... They were also a Desean Jackson miracle punt return against the Giants from not making the playoffs at all. Now I'm not about "if's and but's", but it's not like they were some dominate sure thing to win the Superbowl because all the sudden their defense was good and that was the tipping point.
I'm not arguing that Rodgers isn't great, but c'mon. That argument goes against everything claimed here for years.
Brady's career stands alone, second to no one.
The Patriots have done it in so many ways over the years. Sometimes the defense has been the strength, many times it has been the offense. And you can't just look at generic stats like yardage ranking. That is the whole point --that's how everyone else looks at things, but not how the Patriots operate. It's exactly why everyone concludes the Pats don't have good wide receivers because they don't win yardage trophies and make probowls. But if you watch how the Pats win games, their wide receivers are fatnastic at doign the things BB needs them to do. Hanging on to that critical 3rd down catch over the middle as a linebacker tried to decapitate you won't win anyone's fantasy league for them, but that's exactly how the Patriots win football games.
Well, the 2011 Packers defense also beat the New York Giants in New York in the regular season too.
Look, it's been said around here ad nausium: A Great Franchise QB elevates everybody around him REGARDLESS of anything else.
If you're going to compare Rodgers to Brady you gotta stand by that.
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Is excellent. He’s lower than in a Done but they’re also all away games. But his numbers are HOF level playing outside. Same with cold weather.
No he’s not. He’s also blown a few SB shots with below expectation performances in road playoff games.
Which one's were they supposed to win that he blew?
The Saints playoff L's after winning their Super Bowl:
2010 at Seattle (defense gives up 41)
2011 at San Francisco (Brees drives for the game leading TD with 1:37 left, but the defense allows Alex Smith to drive for the W in the last seconds to face the Giants in the NFC Title Game)
NOTE - I contend to this day if the Saints hold on to win, they go back to the Super Bowl because they would have beaten the Giants the next week.
2013 at Seattle - Seattle great defense at home shuts them down similar to what happened in a previous game weeks earlier. Not unexpected.
2017 at Minnesota - Game was won until the final play when the defender brain cramped and Diggs ran for the walkoff TD.
Which one of these should Brees have carried them to victory? 2 of the 4 games they had the lead with 20 SECONDS REMAINING only to take the L.
Rodgers carries guys on his back. He makes guys like Cobb, Nelson and the rest. He makes the OL. He elevates the okay of his offensive unit as good as anybody ever.
Even this year, while injured, and a lot of his offensive guys hurt he has a 15 to 1 TD to INT rate.
He isn’t carrying this team and elevating guys?
Rodgers carries guys on his back. He makes guys like Cobb, Nelson and the rest. He makes the OL. He elevates the okay of his offensive unit as good as anybody ever.
Even this year, while injured, and a lot of his offensive guys hurt he has a 15 to 1 TD to INT rate.
He isn’t carrying this team and elevating guys?
This is a comparison of Rodgers to Brady, is it not?
Does Brady not do all of those things?
There is no comparison.
Last night, I saw two great QBs make some great throws, miss some throws, and I saw two QBs have protection that would have been a wet dream for Eli over the last few years. It seemed like the only time they were under pressure was when the defenses blitzed, leaving favorable match-ups for the receivers.
I saw two QBs hand the ball off 47 combined times, and only one one time did the run go for negative yards (and it was for -1 yard). Meanwhile over 14% of Barkley's runs go for negative yards.
---------------------------
I thought Rodgers was better last night. The difference in the game was Aaron Jones fumbling, the roughing the kicker, and the Patriots working more cleverly with Patterson as a RB and the flea-flicker-- all things that are reflective more of Belichick getting his guys to "do their jobs" better than McCarthy got his guys to do so.
NYG defense did nothing of shutting down Brady in 2011. This is just a false statement to carry on a narrative.
Its simply not true. He carries guys and he’s proving it again this year.
The “no comparison”comment is off too. Plenty of informed people, coaches, former, and current players say he’s the best they’ve seen.
Rodgers is in he conversation for GOAT.
It’s easy to make the case for Brady but you dont do it by making shit up about Rodgers.
Why dont you say NO's defense carried them to a title like the 2011 Giants did?
But I saw Montana in his prime, when QBs could get hit (see the hits he took against Jim Burt and Leonard Marshall - unlike this era which is embarrassingly soft), and he was astonishingly great. To this day, despite not having the huge arm, he was the best long ball thrower I have ever seen. The guy always seemed to hit Rice, Taylor, Clark, Solomon, etc in stride. He is why that team was always so great in YAC.
Brady is a great one trick pony - in the pocket. Montana was great in and out of the pocket.
Rodgers is Montana with a better arm and even more athleticism. I have no problem assuming that if he played in New England he'd have a few more rings.
Brady is second to none. C'mon now:
-5× Super Bowl champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX, LI)
-4× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX, LI)
-3× NFL Most Valuable Player (2007, 2010, 2017)
-13× Pro Bowl (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009–2017)
-3× First-team All-Pro (2007, 2010, 2017)
-2× Second-team All-Pro (2005, 2016)
-2× NFL Offensive Player of the Year (2007, 2010)
-3× NFL passing yards leader (2005, 2007, 2017)
-4× NFL passing touchdowns leader (2002, 2007, 2010, 2015)
-2× NFL passer rating leader (2007, 2010)
Brady is second to none. C'mon now:
-5× Super Bowl champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLIX, LI)
-4× Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XLIX, LI)
-3× NFL Most Valuable Player (2007, 2010, 2017)
-13× Pro Bowl (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009–2017)
-3× First-team All-Pro (2007, 2010, 2017)
-2× Second-team All-Pro (2005, 2016)
-2× NFL Offensive Player of the Year (2007, 2010)
-3× NFL passing yards leader (2005, 2007, 2017)
-4× NFL passing touchdowns leader (2002, 2007, 2010, 2015)
-2× NFL passer rating leader (2007, 2010)
Don't be ridiculous, it's Belichick Any decent QB in that offense would duplicate those stats and accolades.
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
NYG defense did nothing of shutting down Brady in 2011. This is just a false statement to carry on a narrative.
This has got to be sarcasm, right? An Arc like attempt at trolling?
Quote:
In comment 14165117 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Is excellent. He’s lower than in a Done but they’re also all away games. But his numbers are HOF level playing outside. Same with cold weather.
No he’s not. He’s also blown a few SB shots with below expectation performances in road playoff games.
Which one's were they supposed to win that he blew?
The Saints playoff L's after winning their Super Bowl:
2010 at Seattle (defense gives up 41)
2011 at San Francisco (Brees drives for the game leading TD with 1:37 left, but the defense allows Alex Smith to drive for the W in the last seconds to face the Giants in the NFC Title Game)
NOTE - I contend to this day if the Saints hold on to win, they go back to the Super Bowl because they would have beaten the Giants the next week.
2013 at Seattle - Seattle great defense at home shuts them down similar to what happened in a previous game weeks earlier. Not unexpected.
2017 at Minnesota - Game was won until the final play when the defender brain cramped and Diggs ran for the walkoff TD.
Which one of these should Brees have carried them to victory? 2 of the 4 games they had the lead with 20 SECONDS REMAINING only to take the L.
Brees had 3 turnovers vs Minny last year. Sure the defense blew it, but the fact remains he’s a different guy at home vs on the road. If they played that game in NO last year the Saints win by two scores.
He’s a great QB. But when we’re talking about “the greatest,” I can’t causually dismiss the fact that’s he’s noticeably different on the road. Hell, even the commentators mentioned it in the Rams game.
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
Because they didnt have the ball. And when they did, they moved it quite effectively. When your offense holds the ball for the entire game, its hard for the team to score. Pus, are you giving the defense for a blown coverage and missed passed that would have ended the game? Here are the Giants drives by number of plays.....
10
9
8
7
10
9
10
9
8 drives, all lasting at leas 7 plays. 37:00 minutes worth of possessions. You know where NE started their drives? 16 yard line. I am sorry, but the offense won us the SB, much like they did in SB 25 - by keeping the more explosive offense OFF the field.
If you want to give the defense all the credit, your agenda will remain constant. By if Brady hits a WIDE OPEN Welker.... the game is over and we lose.
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NYG defense did nothing of shutting down Brady in 2011. This is just a false statement to carry on a narrative.
This has got to be sarcasm, right? An Arc like attempt at trolling?
Look at my last post. The information is there that no one wants to read.
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
But you're discounting the fact that Brady straddles two different eras in the NFL, and won multiple championships in both.
He won his first three Superbowls in an era that was absolutely more violent, as well as a lot harder to play offensive football where the defenders could mug WR's (pre-Polian Peyton rule changing), a strategy that the Patriots themselves utilized to perfection.
The NFL was a lot different in the late 90's, early 2000's.
The NFL was a lot different in the late 90's, early 2000's.
LOL, nearly killed him. I'm with you on this debate, but that's some massive hyperbole.
There was a QB controversy in New England four or five weeks later.
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It's this talk that he's the greatest football player ever.
I just can't buy that after watching players like LT, Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. Players who were using speed, strength, quickness, etc to change the game.
Brady is nowhere in that category of athlete/player. He plays a critical position that, ironically, requires less and less ability and skill to absorb physical contract. And for me, that just isn't football anymore...
But you're discounting the fact that Brady straddles two different eras in the NFL, and won multiple championships in both.
He won his first three Superbowls in an era that was absolutely more violent, as well as a lot harder to play offensive football where the defenders could mug WR's (pre-Polian Peyton rule changing), a strategy that the Patriots themselves utilized to perfection.
Let's be honest - the first SB was more Vinatieri than Brady. The two kicks he made in the snow against the Raiders in the division game were as good as it gets. And the first one courtesy of the tuck rule. And if you remember, Brady didn't play against the Steelers in the AFC Championship game - Bledsoe did. And then Vinatieri made the greatest clutch kick ever in the SB.
But the point of my post was about this narrative of Brady being the GOAT for any position in football. I just can't wrap my head around that on an "athlete" playing a sport who can't run, has no quickness, and isn't a pillar of football strength like a Roethlisberger.
They had the ball 9 times. Scored on only 3. Our defense got points on one possession. Had an INT on another. And NE failed to come close to their season average of 32+ points/game.
They could not run the ball.
Brady dropped back 45 times for a net of 266 yards passing.
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Are we watching the same sport?
Giants D started by scoring and held them 2 TDS below their season average. Brady couldn’t throw the ball down the field. He threw it 40+ times and avg under 7 YPA.
Because they didnt have the ball. And when they did, they moved it quite effectively. When your offense holds the ball for the entire game, its hard for the team to score. Pus, are you giving the defense for a blown coverage and missed passed that would have ended the game? Here are the Giants drives by number of plays.....
10
9
8
7
10
9
10
9
8 drives, all lasting at leas 7 plays. 37:00 minutes worth of possessions. You know where NE started their drives? 16 yard line. I am sorry, but the offense won us the SB, much like they did in SB 25 - by keeping the more explosive offense OFF the field.
If you want to give the defense all the credit, your agenda will remain constant. By if Brady hits a WIDE OPEN Welker.... the game is over and we lose.
No one is denying the offense didn't play very well (they would have scored more points if not for that stupid phantom holding call on Boothe), but the defense was tremendous.
NE still had the ball 9 times, and only scored on 3 of them. Brady was only sacked twice, but harassed most of the game (not as much as he was harassed/bit in SB 42, of course).
It was a complete effort What I have an issue is with you saying that the defense did "nothing"
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
1st drive - Brady has a mental error and throws it to the wrong place, not realizing what he was doing was wrong. If thats great defense, our standards have dropped dramatically.
2nd drive - 10 plays, 60 yards FG
3rd drive - 3 and out - good defense
4th drive - 14 plays 96 yards TD.
5th drive - 8 plays - 79 yards.
those two drives ended the half started the 2nd half that put us in a whole.
6th drive - 3 and out - great defense
7th drive - 5 plays, 23 yards - where Brady underthrew an open gronk and blackburn made a pick. great play by Chase, but it was a missed opportunity.
8th drive - 11 play drive punt where Brady missed a wide open Welker that would have ended the game. This is not good defense whatsoever. Again, if need to relay on blown coverage missed passes - the standard is low.
9th drive - Pats go 30 yards before the game ended. So we are now counting this as a stop?
Brady really hurt his team this game and it didnt have to do with a pass rush or great defense. He took a bad safety by not throwing it out of bounds. He missed an open Gronk and he missed a wide open Welker. If this constitutes the defense carrying the team on that day - well your agenda continues.
Ill give the proper credit to the offense and special teams controlling the ball and field position.
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
KWALL never has nor will he ever give Eli credit for anything.
Answer? I'm not.
An interesting point since the same defense shut down Brady too.
But how is this about Eli?
Oh because Dep is on the thread and he makes everything about Eli.
But how is this about Eli?
Oh because Dep is on the thread and he makes everything about Eli.
Oh here we go.... lol. KWALL typical go to move.
Actually, you are the first one to bring up Eli.... but again.... carry on.
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dep's point was that KWALL attributes the Giants runs mainly to the defense, while giving credit to guys like Brees for their runs, even though his defense rose to the occasion as well.
At least that's how I read it. And I think it's a valid point.
KWALL never has nor will he ever give Eli credit for anything.
KWALL may (or may not) have an agenda here, but it's pretty clear your Eli narrative is present as well.
It was a team effort, just leave it at that. Geez...
Rodgers is a great, great, great QB. But the fact he has only 1 SB does not put him in the same category as Brady.
KWALL may (or may not) have an agenda here, but it's pretty clear your Eli narrative is present as well.
It was a team effort, just leave it at that. Geez...
LOL, by saying the offense and STs had more to do with the win than the defense means I have an Eli agenda....
great call. Did I even mention anything about Eli during the game? No... thank you... move along.
Thats more BS. The point was made the 2011 defense stopped Rodgers and that is a knock on Rodgers in a debate of Rodgers vs Brady.
I pointed out the 2011 defense shut down Brady too.
That's bringing up Eli?
Or not giving him credit.
The point was clear. How can you knock Rodgers for his performance against the 2011 defense when Brady didn't do any better vs that same defense?
But this is about Eli in your world.
Thats more BS. The point was made the 2011 defense stopped Rodgers and that is a knock on Rodgers in a debate of Rodgers vs Brady.
I pointed out the 2011 defense shut down Brady too.
That's bringing up Eli?
Or not giving him credit.
The point was clear. How can you knock Rodgers for his performance against the 2011 defense when Brady didn't do any better vs that same defense?
But this is about Eli in your world.
Actually you brought up Eli earlier in the thread for reasons unknownst to man (I quoted it for you in case you have a hard time reading). I certainly did not. And I didnt refer a single statement about Eli in regards to SB 46. I mentioned the offense and STs which consists of more players than just Eli.
But carry on.... you have insistently gone on for years that the defense carried the Giants in the playoffs. Its a false narrative and by saying the Ginats shut down Brady in the SB (which they did not, which I proved by examples ,stats, and game play action). Your agenda is clear and to be honest..... boring.
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KWALL may (or may not) have an agenda here, but it's pretty clear your Eli narrative is present as well.
It was a team effort, just leave it at that. Geez...
LOL, by saying the offense and STs had more to do with the win than the defense means I have an Eli agenda....
great call. Did I even mention anything about Eli during the game? No... thank you... move along.
Holy crap, dude. Well, let's see...you specifically gave props to the offense.....and the guy who lead the offense was Eli....
How "great" was the offense, anyway? You keep referencing the fact they dominated TOP; they had the ball for 37 minutes, and scored 19 measly points.
All three phases of the team were key contributors to the win. It was a complete team win. Just let it go!
I am proving that the defense didn’t “shut down” the Patriots which has been inferred to many times on this thread. I am in belief that the offense and special teams played a larger point in the win. Outside of tuck and chase making a play... out defnese was really non existent. I am not going to give credit to a unit because the other side had colossal fuck ups.
Sure you did.
and the 6 possessions that did not lead to points...
or the 4 possessions of 5 plays or less...
Defense wasn't there that day.