Does the PS/DG evaluation of Eli give you pause...

That someone thought it was a good idea to pay Solder or Omamah or Stewart, or that Eli had enough left in the tank to get anything done in front of that line makes me question whether these guys should be making any decisions going forward.

Eli is in decline - but the roster and OL specifically is so deplorable - that no QB would look good behind them.

Not full of confidence in them, no, but they certainly know more than we do.

and the rest of the non-Mayfield QB class gives me hope.

just because they say something doesn't mean they don't have a more accurate/nuanced/detailed view of things behind the scenes.

In comment 14165631 jcn56 said:

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That someone thought it was a good idea to pay Solder or Omamah or Stewart, or that Eli had enough left in the tank to get anything done in front of that line makes me question whether these guys should be making any decisions going forward.

Solder will be better when the inside of the line blocks better. The interior line is not giving Eli any room to step up, and its making Solder look terrible when he actually does his job.

I was pretty set on taking Rosen or Darnold and I think we made the right choice now in hindsight. In other words, I think they did a good job evaluating these qbs for this year. I also think they are right about Eli in one respect, if you give Eli time he will still kill you. Now, you can say that in this NFL you don't get the time that Eli did earlier in his career and that they should have known he would never have gotten that type of passing pocket, but I am not sure its their evaluation of Eli that has been problematic. If anything, its their evaluation of how quick they could successfully fix the offensive line and where Eli fits into it. Does anyone think that Eli couldn't play behind an good offensive line anymore?
Also, Eli is playing poorly with this OL because he is always afraid he is going to get crushed. So, in terms of evaluating a qb, the evidence is not so crazy that PS/DG could do well in picking a franchise qb.

Seemed in the minority of NFL personal people when he passed on a QB in the draft. This is not a Barkley vs Darnold statement, I just remember most of the reaction to the Giants pick was surprise, not necessarily disagreement, but surprised they were going forward with Eli.

So in answer to your question, I don't know. I have a feeling Gettleman will pass on a quarterback against this year and try to bring a young retread in.

Hope I m wrong, but I don't think Giants will commit to the learning curve going with a rookie will bring.

think they were told to try to build around Eli one more time but that is going to change after this season. The coach and GM have eyes too. Shurmur has been noticeably frustrated a few different times but he has to support Eli when questioned.

is to presume they pass on QB high in the draft again and go with Eli. Still feel okay about that evaluation?

You have to trust what you see .
Size can be an issue very few and only one Drew Breese
Tom Brady is an example on how difficult it can be .
Both Mannings Andrew Luck Big Ben ect Rivers .Who have fufilled expectations .Is Herbert that guy ? I think the
arrow points up but he is no guarantee . Will we totally
shit the bed next season ? I don't think so but anything is
possible . I just don't see this team getting a top 3 pick
again and if Tua remains steady he will likely go #1

... but giving Davis Webb second-team snaps for 8 months and then cutting him a week before the season leaving us with Alex Tanney and Kyle Lauletta to back-up Eli Manning was criminal.

Now, Lauletta may surprise us and turn into a keeper but... if you thought that highly of him (using a valuable 4th round pick that could have been spent wisely elsewhere) then they should have gotten rid of Webb early on and split the extra snaps among Tanney and Lauletta.

Did they really need 8 months to figure out that they didn't like Webb? And considering that there were plenty of questions about Manning going into the season (whether you thought he could still play or not) how could you go into the season without at least a functional back-up QB?

The fact that Gettleman was gifted a good QB in Newton during his tenure as GM in Carolina and never had to pick one of his own only adds to the question about whether this new regime can find a franchise QB.

It's all a little disconcerting.

In comment 14165663 Dan in the Springs said:

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is to presume they pass on QB high in the draft again and go with Eli. Still feel okay about that evaluation?

It would only be for 2019, but I wouldn't be thrilled going in next season with only Eli and Lauletta. That seems minimalist.

DG and PS really wanted these jobs and were tipped off by Accorsi that the only way to get the jobs was to join Mara on the pro-Eli train.

So I am not sure how you evaluate that with this Eli soap opera.

No, the real way to judge their QB acumen is to have Lauletta start from now on and see what he brings to the table.

We may have a player who can actually take the reins. Or, we have a wasted 4th round pick and it's back to the drawing board.

In that case, I think the credibility around this entire franchise it very low when it comes to building a team for the future...

Dan, if the QBs that are oft-discussed aren’t worth a top 5 pick, I would like to see what they do besides the draft. If Gettleman and Shurmur take one of the DTs or trade down then I don't believe it is out of the question that the Giants can bring in a free agent. Teddy Bridgewater and Jacoby Brissett are two names that I would not mind if they go that route.

So if things aren't trending upwards by this time in 2020, then I believe we can and move on. I still believe that this is a multi-year rebuild. I will be curious how Gettleman uses the coming assets and navigates the off season.

I am also in the minority and view his time in Carolina as a success.

gives me pause period. As far as Eli, with an average run game and even bad line instead of the farce it is and Eli would have more wins. I think their evaluation failed in thinking they could rebuild the o line in one season. Shurmur just loses period as an HC. Hope he improves because they are not going anywhere.

I still think that Mara wanted Eli to start this season and wanted a upgraded line. The impact that the Eli Benching causes last year really had a impact on JM.....the letters and outrage in both social media and former players was intense.

I do believe that they felt a franchise QB was not available and would have taken one if they loved and still had Eli play this year.

Unfortunately, DG was unable to address the line and signings they thought would upgrade have not bared out. I think part of why Solder was signed to demonstrate that Eli was being supported by the franchise. It just did not work out.

In comment 14165638 JonC said:

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Not full of confidence in them, no, but they certainly know more than we do.

If a guy like John Harbaugh is available, I have to wonder if Mara pulls the trigger assuming this is a 2-3 win season.

i really think the only reason we took him is because he was still on the board in the 4th round, and they had him projected as a late 2nd, early 3rd.

I want the person in the position of GM to be of exceptional intelligence. DG is not. I am NOT calling him stupid, before you go all Straw Man on me, please pause, I believe him to be a shrewd businessman. This is not the same as intellect. He has some plus traits for the position for sure. It is not that he had a different opinion of Eli than many, it is that he said the Philadelphia game was not a mirage. I believe he made the most important decision about the immediate future of the franchise based on emotion rather than unbiased analytics.

In comment 14165650 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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In comment 14165631 jcn56 said: Quote: That someone thought it was a good idea to pay Solder or Omamah or Stewart, or that Eli had enough left in the tank to get anything done in front of that line makes me question whether these guys should be making any decisions going forward. Solder will be better when the inside of the line blocks better. The interior line is not giving Eli any room to step up, and its making Solder look terrible when he actually does his job.

I agree and this has been brought up by a few Analysts. Solder like to push his guy out and around the pocket, buy our interior line, mainly C and RG are getting pushed back 3 yards deep and Eli is not so fleet of foot.

In comment 14165651 Essex said:

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I was pretty set on taking Rosen or Darnold and I think we made the right choice now in hindsight. In other words, I think they did a good job evaluating these qbs for this year. I also think they are right about Eli in one respect, if you give Eli time he will still kill you. Now, you can say that in this NFL you don't get the time that Eli did earlier in his career and that they should have known he would never have gotten that type of passing pocket, but I am not sure its their evaluation of Eli that has been problematic. If anything, its their evaluation of how quick they could successfully fix the offensive line and where Eli fits into it. Does anyone think that Eli couldn't play behind an good offensive line anymore? Also, Eli is playing poorly with this OL because he is always afraid he is going to get crushed. So, in terms of evaluating a qb, the evidence is not so crazy that PS/DG could do well in picking a franchise qb.

I agree with what you wrote, and I would think that DG/PS are able to evaluate Eli independently. As fans, we see the results and the shit show of an OL. We have difficulty in separating the two from objectively evaluating Eli's physical/mental skills. He can still read defenses and can still toss the long ball. Eli will never be mobile. I know it seems outlandish to some, but the hardest thing to do in this league is finding a franchise QB. We have one. DG might not be in any hurry to get rid of him. It would not surprise me to see a continued effort in fixing the OL and continuing to ride with Eli.

In comment 14165675 bw in dc said:

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DG and PS really wanted these jobs and were tipped off by Accorsi that the only way to get the jobs was to join Mara on the pro-Eli train. So I am not sure how you evaluate that with this Eli soap opera. No, the real way to judge their QB acumen is to have Lauletta start from now on and see what he brings to the table. We may have a player who can actually take the reins. Or, we have a wasted 4th round pick and it's back to the drawing board. In that case, I think the credibility around this entire franchise it very low when it comes to building a team for the future...

I contend that monkeys can fly but they're too smart to let us know that. Where is the data?

In comment 14165663 Dan in the Springs said:

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is to presume they pass on QB high in the draft again and go with Eli. Still feel okay about that evaluation?

Yes. Better yet, is if they extend him.

It's the OL's fault because Eli can't step up when a DE beats Solder? And what excuse do we use when Solder is beat to the inside, even with a TE helping him?

They've been an abject failure since they were hired. I suppose they could turn it around, but I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

If Mara is serious about turning this around, he will:

1. Sweep the front office, coaching staff, and scouting department clean
2. Hire an outside consultant (not Ernie Accorsi) to research and clearly define what best practices are in today's NFL front offices, coaching staffs, and scouting departments
3. Restructure the organization with new hires based on the study conducted in #2 above.

This is actually an interesting and exciting opportunity for Mara, if he wants to look at it that way. But he has to have the courage to admit his mistakes and understand that the world has moved on from the way the Giants have been doing things.

In comment 14165663 Dan in the Springs said:

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is to presume they pass on QB high in the draft again and go with Eli. Still feel okay about that evaluation?

Linking the two as if there is causality is a presumption with no underlying foundation. I

In comment 14165717 Go Terps said:

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They've been an abject failure since they were hired. I suppose they could turn it around, but I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. If Mara is serious about turning this around, he will: 1. Sweep the front office, coaching staff, and scouting department clean 2. Hire an outside consultant (not Ernie Accorsi) to research and clearly define what best practices are in today's NFL front offices, coaching staffs, and scouting departments 3. Restructure the organization with new hires based on the study conducted in #2 above. This is actually an interesting and exciting opportunity for Mara, if he wants to look at it that way. But he has to have the courage to admit his mistakes and understand that the world has moved on from the way the Giants have been doing things.

Agree 100% with this. You are the type of man I would go into business with.

overall have given me pause...

In comment 14165718 Bill L said:

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In comment 14165663 Dan in the Springs said: Quote: is to presume they pass on QB high in the draft again and go with Eli. Still feel okay about that evaluation? Linking the two as if there is causality is a presumption with no underlying foundation. I

You're correct - was just looking at the current situation really in a different way.

In other words, I trusted PS (especially) and his ability to evalate QB's this year. I think it was a miscalculation to count on Eli. Now, when they passed on several QB's (until the fourth) I was okay with it, because I figured DG/PS had the ability to evaluate talent at QB and none of the other guys represented value.

I'm not sure I'd trust the regime again if they pass everyone again. They may end up being right, but I'm not sure I could feel very good about that situation.

I do not think it is a necessarily an issue of either's direct evaluation of Eli. Though it is troubling that DG continued to point to one quarter of one game as justification for Eli's effectiveness. The area most concerning to me is the evaluation of Eli in regard to the current state of the team.

I believe, at least for DG, he looked at 2017 as aberrational, despite evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that this was an organization in steep decline since the second half of 2012. The more appropriate conclusion was that 2016 was wholly aberrational. Thus, he geared up for one more run under Eli, which to date, has been nothing sort of a disaster. It is clear that Eli could not and cannot operate in this offensive scheme, with the personnel currently on the roster. How much of that is Eli's fault is debatable.

His inability to evaluate the current state of the franchise is troubling. A lot of you are ready to pass judgement on the 2018 qb class, which is laughable in its own right, but I do not think we can reach a conclusion on any of the four at this point. What we can say with some measure of certainty is that DG failed in his evaluation of this team's ability to compete in 2018, and likely 2019. Leading to decisions that may have some longer term impact on the franchise.

In comment 14165719 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14165717 Go Terps said: Quote: They've been an abject failure since they were hired. I suppose they could turn it around, but I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. If Mara is serious about turning this around, he will: 1. Sweep the front office, coaching staff, and scouting department clean 2. Hire an outside consultant (not Ernie Accorsi) to research and clearly define what best practices are in today's NFL front offices, coaching staffs, and scouting departments 3. Restructure the organization with new hires based on the study conducted in #2 above. This is actually an interesting and exciting opportunity for Mara, if he wants to look at it that way. But he has to have the courage to admit his mistakes and understand that the world has moved on from the way the Giants have been doing things. Agree 100% with this. You are the type of man I would go into business with.

I agree this could be a way forward. I still think Shurm could turn out to be a good HC but I have no faith in DG. I think he is a complete oaf and out of step with modern sports management. He has to go.

No.

Does anyone here even know what DGs true evaluation of Eli is? Maybe he thinks Eli can be a solid starter for us for the next few years. Maybe he thinks Eli cannot play but is being told by ownership to stick with Eli this year.

Either way or something in the middle... do you really think that Gettleman is going to say anything else publicly other than he thinks that Eli can play?

In comment 14165717 Go Terps said:

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They've been an abject failure since they were hired. I suppose they could turn it around, but I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. If Mara is serious about turning this around, he will: 1. Sweep the front office, coaching staff, and scouting department clean 2. Hire an outside consultant (not Ernie Accorsi) to research and clearly define what best practices are in today's NFL front offices, coaching staffs, and scouting departments 3. Restructure the organization with new hires based on the study conducted in #2 above. This is actually an interesting and exciting opportunity for Mara, if he wants to look at it that way. But he has to have the courage to admit his mistakes and understand that the world has moved on from the way the Giants have been doing things.

I don’t see how anyone can disagree with this assessment. This is a franchise that is 37-60 since Hurricane Sandy.

Unfortunately, I don’t see this happening unless this is a 1-3 win season which includes another few embarrassments.

Not cut Eli this year without taking a major dead money hit so they were stuck with him and of course had to say wonderful things in public like he has years left, if anything to calm the fan base. So far the draft picks have been promising the free agents disappointing so it’s not a slam dunk either way whether or not to trust DG and PS with evaluating a successor

And it’s the complete opposite. I have zero faith in this current regime to make solid decisions.

with this mess is...why the hell don't we just put in Lauletta now? What is the point of continuing to throw Eli out there if we are out of contention and going nowhere as a franchise with him at QB in the future? I can't think of a reason why a coach or GM would not want to see what they have in a rookie QB especially when the season is off the rails.

And no, I don't care if the OL sucks or the team around him sucks. If we keep making excuses for not playing other QBs, then we will just never find out if any of them are any good.

In comment 14165709 Bill L said:

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In comment 14165675 bw in dc said: Quote: DG and PS really wanted these jobs and were tipped off by Accorsi that the only way to get the jobs was to join Mara on the pro-Eli train. So I am not sure how you evaluate that with this Eli soap opera. No, the real way to judge their QB acumen is to have Lauletta start from now on and see what he brings to the table. We may have a player who can actually take the reins. Or, we have a wasted 4th round pick and it's back to the drawing board. In that case, I think the credibility around this entire franchise it very low when it comes to building a team for the future... I contend that monkeys can fly but they're too smart to let us know that. Where is the data?

I assume you are referring to the reason DG and PS were hired?

There is no "data". It's simply putting the pieces of the circumstantial puzzle together to draw a reasonable conclusion. The most interesting thing to me is that people can't see that or refuse to see it.

In comment 14165755 ryanmkeane said:

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with this mess is...why the hell don't we just put in Lauletta now? What is the point of continuing to throw Eli out there if we are out of contention and going nowhere as a franchise with him at QB in the future? I can't think of a reason why a coach or GM would not want to see what they have in a rookie QB especially when the season is off the rails. And no, I don't care if the OL sucks or the team around him sucks. If we keep making excuses for not playing other QBs, then we will just never find out if any of them are any good.

I expect they’ll wait until the team is mathematically eliminated before making that move. In their minds they still have a chance at making a run (or at least try and convince themselves of that for motivation)

is sticking with eli.

From a management perspective, it's hard to bench a team legend in favor of a 4th round rookie. Eli has a million times more equity with the fans than shurmur does. Eli probably has more power with ownership than shurmur does. It makes it very, very hard for shurmur to make that move.

Plus, this is probably his last nfl head coaching job. He probably thinks eli gives him a better chance to win. If we lose 14 or 15 games, theres a shot shurmur gets fired and then he'll almost certainly never get another head job.

These factors dont make it right for the team, but you can see how it would make sense for shurmur. These factors are also symptomatic of a poorly managed organization. The incentives for key individuals (like the head coach) may not be aligned with the best long term outcomes of the team.

The decisions, or at least the green light, probably has to come from above in this circumstance.

while that is probably true, you would think the GM, HC and owners would sit down and talk this through and get on the same page.

If you are going to stick with PS for another year at least, then he should know that and be given the oppty to make decisions that benefit the entire organization long term rather than worrying about the next 2 months only.

this silo approach where one party is making decisions that only benefit one side of the equation is a sign of a dysfunctional organization.

how could anything that has happened this year give anyone confidence that DG/PS are the right guys?

I am not saying they should necessarily be fired after one year, but to actually point to anything that has happened thus far and feel good about it? that would surprise me.

That DG and PS truly believed Eli was 100% the solution here at qb for the foreseeable future? I’m not trying to be a dick or come off as argumentitive, I just don’t know for sure how they truly feel? Maybe they thought that Eli was a decent stop gap type and they still didn’t love the qbs in last April’s draft. I don’t know why this is such an abstract concept for some, but it’s a distinct possibility no?

Or maybe they thought Eli was the cat’s PJs. What matters going forward is what they do about this team’s current status.

In comment 14165717 Go Terps said:

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They've been an abject failure since they were hired. I suppose they could turn it around, but I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. If Mara is serious about turning this around, he will: 1. Sweep the front office, coaching staff, and scouting department clean 2. Hire an outside consultant (not Ernie Accorsi) to research and clearly define what best practices are in today's NFL front offices, coaching staffs, and scouting departments 3. Restructure the organization with new hires based on the study conducted in #2 above. This is actually an interesting and exciting opportunity for Mara, if he wants to look at it that way. But he has to have the courage to admit his mistakes and understand that the world has moved on from the way the Giants have been doing things.

hits the nail on the head.

Who the hell was responsible for saying Eli can still be a winning QB in their system/behind the line they knew they had?

If you don’t have pause in DG and PS you’re a moron or a liar...

But I can remember a huge blunder made by Bill Parcells starting Brunner over Simms.

I'm hopeful they both don't continue to look like idiots.

So many blunders.