This is not to say I dont recognize it as a major need. But after seeing what last year's class looks like SO FAR and seeing what has happened to teams that chased the dream of a "franchise QB" and watched that player fail setting them back another half decade, we have a chance to side step that mistake. We have a lot of talent in important positions and I think we did the right thing by selling (even if we sold low) on important players like Snacks and Apple. It would be foolish to force-pick a QB who middles or worst case straight busts and we are selling again in 4 or 5 years.
Herbert has all the talent in the world, but he is quite raw. Daniel Jones is quite polished and makes good decisions, but he hasn't produced because he has NOBODY to throw to and his line has looked awful. Will Grier throws the ball deep beautifully and can move, but he doesnt seem to make NFL decisions. None of those guys are guys you should 100% spend a top ten pick on when you have the other needs that we do. You can make a case for Herbert being the exception because of his arm talent and mobility plus the Shurmur QB whisperer angle. But if he doesnt have the head, you lose out on drafting a guy like Ed Oliver or Nick Bosa....or the Tackle from Bama...or, best case, the chance to trade down with someone like Denver or Miami for their first next year plus and draft a much better QB in Tua.
I dont want to hear about wasting another year of Beckham's or Barkley's prime either. Whats worse? Burning one more year or 5 years of their primes? I just think that bypassing all of the talented defenders in this draft to draft a project is silly and will haunt us for years.
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Aren't we?
Ummmm, no? Try again?
I think just about everyone can agree that is disastrous thinking. If you have a top 5 pick you use it on a top 5 talent, not the best player at a position of value with no regard to your own scouting.
If you're the Giants in 2019 and drafting in the top 5, you have to go BPA among QB, Edge Rusher or Left Tackle.
Jamarcus Russell is a lesson for front offices to do their homework on prospects, not to avoid drafting QBs high.
I didn't watch his last game so I won't comment on that.
If you're the Giants in 2019 and drafting in the top 5, you have to go BPA among QB, Edge Rusher or Left Tackle.
The Raiders were the only team that thought Jamarcus was worth taking that high.
I think just about everyone can agree that is disastrous thinking. If you have a top 5 pick you use it on a top 5 talent, not the best player at a position of value with no regard to your own scouting.
I'd take Barkley over a couple of borderline busts, sure.
When it's Barkley vs, say, Matt Ryan, that's where it gets dicey.
2008-Matt Ryan
2009-Stafford
2010-None (I will not include Bradford but he is a weird case because of injury)
2011-Cam Newton
2011-Andy Dalton
2012-Andrew Luck
2012-Kirk Cousins
2012-Russell Wilson
2013-None
2014-Bridgewater (who got hurt),Derek Carr, Garropolo
2015-Mariotta
2016-Goff
2016-Wentz
2016-Prescott
2017-Mahomes
You could argue thre was no franchise QB from 2013-2015, but Carr and Garropolo got paid like they were ones and Bridgewater was good until he got hurt. Mariotta still starts. The point is that when you wait for the perfect qb you really are devaluing your current assets. I would almost rather gamble and lose and be bad and just gamble again in three years if it does not work out as opposed to waiting for that critical piece.
Also, do you want to really waste OBJ's career and say he is not going to get a qb to play with until 2020 (and that is a rookie). Then, the rookie QB has to have at least a year to get acclimated to the NFL. OBJ is not going to be here forever and rbs don't have the longest career spans in the NFL with respect to Saquon. It is imperative for us to get that piece next year, even if it is a gamble. Unlike when Red Aurebach in basketball said "do you know how short a year is," when he drafted Larry Bird, a year in football is extremely long. Three years of being terrible to finally get a qb that may or may not work out is inexcusable. You might as well try. Again, the rookie salaries they way they are, you can try again in three years and just kill year four of the deal and not option year 5. People who say keep waiting, I kind of get it, but that is not healthy for a franchise either.
That's the thing. Some people are so risk-averse that the only time they deem it fit to take a QB is if there's a hailed prospect sitting there.
It's of course still very early, and Herbert may not even declare for the draft. But as of right now, I think he'd be the pick.
Herbert has a three-quarters overhead throwing motion. It also sometimes looks like he's launching rather than throwing the ball. But he has a rocket arm, and from what I've seen is accurate. He can also run, not just horizontally, but vertically. He's also an honors student majoring in biology.
I do agree with JonC that you can't force a pick. The draft is BPA, unless perhaps the grades for two players are extremely close and lower graded player is at a position of clear need.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
They still believe in Eli..so theres that
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
thank you.. i agree.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
You are right. He was the consensus best player EVER in the draft. Actually he and Peyton Manning(?) with a 94 grade were the highest rated players.
Another thing that aided my success was to welcome opposing points of view, no matter the demeanor in which they were offered, as a way to continue to grow.
Probably would have never happened if I took every dissenting Opinion personally, really not a good look.
It s only football my friend.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Who is the revisionist Terps? Barkley was widely viewed as the best talent in the draft, that is a fact.
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
Well the majority of analysts I follow thought Barkley at 2 was mistake. That was a widely held view pretty much everywhere I looked except for BBI and some Giants-centric media. So make of that what you want but being smug about it doesn't seem warranted.
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
thank you.. i agree.
Wow...just wow. Talk about twisting history to fit your narrative. What color is the sky in your world?
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
I agree with chopper...oddly. SB was the easy pick and least risky pick and an unbelievable talent pick. He was as plug and play a draft pick as
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In comment 14166086 Go Terps said:
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
thank you.. i agree.
Wow...just wow. Talk about twisting history to fit your narrative. What color is the sky in your world?
I suggest, you get out of your bubble. For value alone, selecting a RB at 2 was widely considered to be a reach. That is why there was so much debate on the matter here.
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
Go back and read the pre-draft threads. Opinion was all over the place, and not just between Barkley and Darnold.
There was a thread about who you didn't want the Giants to pick, and a bunch of people (including myself) said Barkley. The narrative has been rewritten after the fact to make the Giants look correct. Same as ever.
RB is one of the easiest positions to fill via the draft. It’s been like that for a long, long time. If a GM can’t find a competent RB you either aren’t paying attention or not qualified for the job.
So calling Barkley a sure thing isn’t really captivating as an argument.
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In comment 14166086 Go Terps said:
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
I agree with chopper...oddly. SB was the easy pick and least risky pick and an unbelievable talent pick. He was as plug and play a draft pick as
SB was possibly the least risky pick, yes. But as I have said often the value of an elite RB is capped in the NFL as we see that replacement level is high. Many teams function well with a committee of average backs, and often do better running the ball than teams with a bell cow. Add to that the shorter career for RBs and taking one so high is now an unorthodox thing to do. This is why Leveon Bell is not getting his huge contract and why RBs are paid less than other positions.
He still is a tremendous talent and hopefully we took the hit this year for drafting him and do not have to endure several seasons before we find a new guy under center. But if we do, then the DG strategy was flawed. If we don’t then let’s find our guy and play ball...
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
I'm saying this as a guy who still thinks Barkley was a mistake.
Barkley was the consensus best player in the draft without question. The issue with him was always the fact that he's a running back.
I like him more than Allen, but i think he's closer to Allen than to the other 3 because he requires a lot of projecting.
I'm not really strongly in favor or opposed to drafting him at this point. It would be more interesting to watch than the current giants at least.
K - Rosas looks like the real deal.
P - Dixon is good, we're not going to draft a punter...
Any other position could be justified with any of the picks...we suck that much.
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Take the best QB in the draft and do not look back.
Nope, that's not using the draft optimally. I'd have no issue going edge rusher or left tackle if he's the better player than the QB.
Agree. The thought process of take a QB no matter what is one that haunts franchises for years.
I like him more than Allen, but i think he's closer to Allen than to the other 3 because he requires a lot of projecting.
I'm not really strongly in favor or opposed to drafting him at this point. It would be more interesting to watch than the current giants at least.
Have you watched Grier play? He's a natural managing the pocket and timing it beautifully when he needs to get outside the pocket. His play last weekend at Texas was superb.
He may not have the size and arm of Herbert but I think he's a considerably better QB.
I think his physical tools are decent enough but they don't scream top 5 pick. I go back and forth on the age thing for a qb. He's 3 years older than Herbert for example. He's certainly young enough to have a long nfl career, but I wonder how much of an advantage it is for him to be older and more experienced than his competition. The fact that Darnold and Rosen were so young (and were good in college) was intriguing to me.
Maybe he is good though - if a guy can make good decisons, throw it accurately, and move around a little, then he can be a good qb. I could see it happening.
It will be interesting to see how his stock moves over the course of the year. He doesn't have that top of the draft "feel" but neither did Mayfield at this point last year. I do think Mayfield was a better college player than Grier though.
K - Rosas looks like the real deal.
P - Dixon is good, we're not going to draft a punter...
Any other position could be justified with any of the picks...we suck that much.
There is no way - no way - no way they should draft a WR in Rd 1.
Just to be clear:
I agree that Eli is damaged goods, and not playing well...
I felt that Barkley was a mistake at #2, not enough value in an elite RB.
I was in favor of trading back to acquire more picks last year to target OL and DL/ER (preferably OL).
I was not enamored with any of last years' QBs, although I liked Mayfield, but worried about him in NYC.
I am averse to risking a top 5 draft pick QB behind this line. See Luck, Bridgewater, Couch, Bradford (all injured behind bad lines), David Carr, Derick Carr, Eli and others (beaten into being bad QBs). Some think its "good experience" no matter how bad the OL is... However, yes you can ruin young QBs. It's a baaaad idea.
I agree with chopper, from what I see this year, mostly looking at Herbert and more recently Jones, I not sure any are worth a 1st round pick, let alone top 5.
Once again, I would rather trade back, and pick players that are good values for wherever we do wind up picking.
Not me. Not in the least. Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield were appreciably better than him at this point last season.
Ok fine, take him off the list, point remains...
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In comment 14165776 UberAlias said:
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Aren't we?
Ummmm, no? Try again?
I don't need to. You are making the case quite plainly yourself.
Btw, I just read thru the thread out of boredom and saw that your response made no sense.
Strike 2.
I think his physical tools are decent enough but they don't scream top 5 pick. I go back and forth on the age thing for a qb. He's 3 years older than Herbert for example. He's certainly young enough to have a long nfl career, but I wonder how much of an advantage it is for him to be older and more experienced than his competition. The fact that Darnold and Rosen were so young (and were good in college) was intriguing to me.
Maybe he is good though - if a guy can make good decisons, throw it accurately, and move around a little, then he can be a good qb. I could see it happening.
It will be interesting to see how his stock moves over the course of the year. He doesn't have that top of the draft "feel" but neither did Mayfield at this point last year. I do think Mayfield was a better college player than Grier though.
The age is not AS big a deal to me as the way he plays. Will Grier will be just under a year older than Eli was when he got drafted. If Eli retires after this year and Will Grier produces 14 years of football the way Eli did I take that without a flinch.
What Grier does that is terrifying at the NFL level is hold the ball FAR too long. People refer to the WVU offense as friendly to QBs producing, but Grier is not racking up huge numbers by capitalizing on mismatches, great throws and making the right decisions like Mahomes is this year. He plays a playground style similar to Kyle Boller and JP Losman with similarly terrific measurables.
The thing I am starting to like about him is that he is fearless. He is more of a Favre clone than Mahomes even. He has a terrific arm. He is very mobile. Despite looking positively awful against Iowa St and pretty bad against Kansas, he seems to not care. Yes he plays in the Big 12, but his numbers are awesome with regards to production. The 7 picks in 8 games doesnt bother me so much based on the Eli experience. But he is a very mobile QB who has taken 17 sacks over 8 games and not because his line has been terrible like D. Jones. Because of him not knowing when to cut bait on a play.
That not only doesnt work well at the next level but it will get him obliterated.
There are simply not enough chips on the table to truly address those two projects and also use your #1 on a QB or WR or what have you 'talent'.
Maybe trade down.
Additionally. As we have seen, it takes time to make a great line. Yet you do want that in place before your rookie QB starts. So, one more year.
Which kills your play calling variety.
....causing your talent to get injured or not develop. A viscous cycle.
Conversely:
Trade down into round two. Or low #1_ and up into 2_3_4, presuming ...with good drafting, focus on OL and defensive playmakers. And you start on the road back to having a solid team.
Then look to add QB, WR in 2020.
There's a ton of recent data that shows having a stable coach and management is a good indicator of a QB succeeding.
If the Giants think a good QB is going to save this franchise, good luck. If the Giants have faith Shurmur can be a stable presence and this year of brain farts and weird decisions is an outlier, any first round type guy can succeed.
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In comment 14166105 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 14166086 Go Terps said:
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That is revisionist history to make the pick more palatable.
There was serious debate that included 6 or 7 players.
Lmfao! No....there really wasn't a debate. There was alittle bit of talk about Quentin Nelson being that and the only guy who felt strongly about it was Mayock.
I also dont think you are being honest with yourself if you believe that.
I agree with chopper...oddly. SB was the easy pick and least risky pick and an unbelievable talent pick. He was as plug and play a draft pick as
SB was possibly the least risky pick, yes. But as I have said often the value of an elite RB is capped in the NFL as we see that replacement level is high. Many teams function well with a committee of average backs, and often do better running the ball than teams with a bell cow. Add to that the shorter career for RBs and taking one so high is now an unorthodox thing to do. This is why Leveon Bell is not getting his huge contract and why RBs are paid less than other positions.
Yes he was the "safe" pick, like DG was the "safe" pick and Shurmur was the "safe" pick and where did that get the giants? Nowhere with the team playing WORSE than last year if that's possible. It is time to start thinking outside the box with this organization because right now the future looks dismal with this FO.
the weekly (daily) "was Barkley the correct choice at 2"
"We win out and win the NFC East"
"wimpy schedule - get on a roll"
All these posts dictate our future and where we go in the off season.
The subject/discussion is not wanting the QB and if there is no sure-fire consensus franchise QB, then I think there are alternate paths to success with the team's construction. I mentioned the 2 posts about our coming games and final record as it has an impact on our pick. I am really a big believer in getting a winning culture back on the team. I think a strong finish, even if not making the playoffs, would be a tremendous positive for the team.
Now I can accept this as debatable but I don't think DG, Shurmur, Mara are under any illusions that Eli Manning can be counted on in 2019 as the QB going forward. If they wind up going with Daniel Jones from Duke, I have read (I believe here) that Eli was high on him, maybe he plays the "Kurt Warner" role that was done for him back in 2004. If a successful second half, lowers our draft choice, maybe the "pressure" of making the QB pick would be alleviated. (Although DG didn't subscribe this year).
I don't want to chase fools gold but back to back seasons with 3 wins or less is something I would rather avoid.
I agree with JonC - build the OL, DL, running game and a good D. Bring in Bridgewater or explore a trade for Brissett. Screw the media type like Raanan and look at Lauletta.
As frustrating as this offense is, I, as a fan, get really deflated at other teams converting on 3rd and long. How many times do we have teams in 3rd and 17 or more and they convert a 21 yard play?
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after 8 games it was a mistake to draft any of the quarterbacks. If that all the time you re going to give a young quarterback to show if he has it or not, you should definitely never draft a quarterback
Me, I would be willing to wait a game or two more
No I didnt say that either. I am saying that I dont think that any of the QBs this year were better picks than Barkley FOR THE GIANTS, and that its not loking like any of the top QB prospects THIS year stand out from the truly great prospects that will be in the top 3-5 of this year's draft.
Your reading comprehension sucks. Ive noticed it in some of your other posts.
Time for a little benzodiazepine?