if this was discussed and I missed it, apologies...
but I was struck watching SNF last night as they were making a big deal about the match-up of 2 elite QB's like Brady & Rodgers... they discussed and showed graphics about great/potential HOF QB match-ups.
they obviously showed Brady & Rodgers, and extended it to Peyton and Brees... and then extended to Big Ben... but no Eli.
I am on record that I think Eli is worthy of the HOF and likely to make it, but it reminded me that the outside world really thinks much less of our QB than we do. and that these past few years are really hurting his legacy.
Eli truly elevated NYG that year and is THE biggest reason we navigated through that season and won the Super Bowl. But he really didn't do anything like that any other year in his career.
Eli has been in the league for 15 years and there has basically been no point in his career where you could make an honest case for him as even a top 3 QB in the league. Even in 2011 - he wasn't league MVP, he wasn't OPOY, he wasn't even an all-pro.
The one thing I will say is that Eli's 2010 season might be one of the most misleading ones in his career. I thought he was actually really good that year - but he led the league in INT's. There were an inordinate amount of balls thrown right on target that went right off a WR's hands and into a DB's lap. Just some awful luck that year, but I thought he played really well otherwise.
My one problem with viewing Eli on a year by year basis is I believe some of the years which he played he played incredibly well but either the stats or team success wasnt there.
2008 Eli was very, very good. He wasnt asked to do much because of the defense and run game - but he made so many big plays that year.
2014/2015 were great years considering he had OBJ and little of anything else that could play in the NFL.
And I agree with your 2010 assessment.
I would wager that no one on BBI would seriously argue that he should be mentioned in the same sentence as the elite NFL quarterbacks mentioned in this thread.
I've always been of the opinion that if you have to ask whether a guy is a Hall of Famer, he isn't.
Um.... I really dont know how to respond to that.
So you're saying Eli was better in 2005, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2016 than he was in 2011? Because if you are basing it on regular season records...
We're talking about the Hall of Fame here. If we're going to say '14 and '15 were Hall of Fame years why don't we just put Matt Schaub and Neil Lomax in?
Stats are not the case to make for Eli. His stats aren't as good as those of his top level contemporaries.
The case to make is the two seasons he did things rarely seen in NFL history.
I agree completely with this. The HoF should be for guys that were consistently one of the best players of their era. We all know there are plenty of guys in the HoF that don't meet that criteria. Namath is there because of one iconic moment/season. Sometimes that is enough.
As much as many folks here will hate to hear this, if Eli does get in, it will be for the beating the undefeated Patriots in SB 42, for being a great face of the league during his career, and for being a Manning. He was never one of the top 3 QBs in the game and was never an All-Pro. He is more of an icon of the league, like Namath.
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The other thing with Eli is he really has no discernible "peak" period of his career. Yes, he was fantastic in 2011 and carried this team. But typically a HoF QB will play at a level like that for more than one season.
Eli truly elevated NYG that year and is THE biggest reason we navigated through that season and won the Super Bowl. But he really didn't do anything like that any other year in his career.
Eli has been in the league for 15 years and there has basically been no point in his career where you could make an honest case for him as even a top 3 QB in the league. Even in 2011 - he wasn't league MVP, he wasn't OPOY, he wasn't even an all-pro.
The one thing I will say is that Eli's 2010 season might be one of the most misleading ones in his career. I thought he was actually really good that year - but he led the league in INT's. There were an inordinate amount of balls thrown right on target that went right off a WR's hands and into a DB's lap. Just some awful luck that year, but I thought he played really well otherwise.
My one problem with viewing Eli on a year by year basis is I believe some of the years which he played he played incredibly well but either the stats or team success wasnt there.
2008 Eli was very, very good. He wasnt asked to do much because of the defense and run game - but he made so many big plays that year.
2014/2015 were great years considering he had OBJ and little of anything else that could play in the NFL.
And I agree with your 2010 assessment.
Voters don't really consider that stuff, though. It's more of a bottom line business. You need the accomplishments and numbers. If you don't have the hardware, you'd better have some damn good numbers - and if you don't really have the numbers, you need a bit more hardware. Even the 2 Super Bowls may not be enough.
I think people need to realize that non-Giants fans view Eli much differently than we do. We've watched every single snap for 15 years. Most of the voters will not have done that and will only know him as the Jekyll & Hyde player he often was in his career where he could look untouchable one minute and absolutely lost the next.
We know that maybe he could have put up better numbers in certain seasons or that a lot of bad circumstances around him hurt his legacy tremendously, but that's not the type of stuff that will be at the forefront when it comes time for people to answer this question with a "yes" or "no."
I love Eli. I hope he gets in. I really do.
But if I was a voter and was being completely objective, I probably wouldn't vote for him.
Besides the SB wins, the SB MVP trophies, and his iron man streak, the only other real numbers you can point at are his counting stats. Yes, of course there's something to be said for longevity, but in the next 5-7 years, even those numbers are going to be knocked down a few pegs. I see some people referring to yards:
Eli is currently at #6 overall with 54,059
I believe when it's all said and done, he will be eclipsed by or be given a run for his money:
Ben Roethlisberger- Currently at 53,625
Phil Rivers- Currently at 52,584 and still playing MVP caliber football
Matt Ryan- 44,481..It'll be close, but he turned 33 this year. On pace for a career high this year of 5,300 yards, and has averaged 4,533 a year since 2011. 4/5 more years of even 4,000 a year adds another 20K to that number
Aaron Rodgers- 41,044
Joe Flacco- 38,245. Again, another close one, the only one on here I'd lean towards no. On pace for about 4,500 this year, which would be a career high. Turned 34 in January. Averages about 3,800 per year since 2011. At 4/5 more years he'd be at right at Eli's total now. Will depend how he finishes the twilight of his career.
Matt Stafford- 36,860. Will be 31 all of next year. On pace for 4,200 which would be his lowest total since 2011. From 2011 through 2017 he's averaged 4,500 a year, with his lowest in that stretch being 4,257. 6/7 more years at even 4K production gives him another 25K on top.
This isn't even including a lot of the QBs from 2009-2012, that are all pacing to eclipse these totals or be right in the neighborhood (Andy Dalton (27K+ at 31), Russ Wilson (24K+ at 29) Luck (21K+ at 29). Bottom line is, the all time leader-boards, are going to become saturated with QBs from this era due to how favorably the league has turned for passers.
Not going to go as in depth for passing TD's, but quickly:
Eli currently at 7th all time in passing TD's at 157. Again, guys I believe who will either eclipse him, or be right in his neighborhood when it's all said and done are (Phil Rivers already is above him FYI):
Ben Roethlisberger at 345
Aaron Rodgers at 328
Matt Ryan at 279
Matt Stafford at 230
Taking all this into account, he would be knocked out of the top 10 of all the counting categories as well. Again, with the perception/reality, that with all but the exception of perhaps 1 or 2 seasons, he was never even considered a top 5 QB in a season.
Don't know how much being a Manning, or the Walter Payton Man of the Year will factor in, and they are all good points, but I just don't know.
Also, the "if you have to ask" test will only make for a quicker vote without actually coming to any better consensus or agreement. Instead, it just anchors to how big the person giving an answer thinks the Hall should be.
Also, if it's just a "if you have to ask" test, then it suggests that no one has to defend their answer. Because if asked why, it then opens them up to debate on the inputs that went into that decision.
There are always borderline cases. "If you have to ask" doesn't change that.
I think the Hall of Fame has it backwards. Instead of debating who should be let in, the debate should be about keeping people out. I can make a case for keeping Jim Kelly or Warren Moon out of the Hall of Fame. I can not make a case for keeping Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, or Joe Montana out of the Hall of Fame. Of current QBs, I can not make a case against Tom Brady or Drew Brees. I can make a case against everybody else.
The Hall of Fame is the highest honor a player can receive. Given that, I'd think it should be ultra-exclusive, and that exclusivity should be protected. But that ship sailed long ago. Now instead the argument becomes "If so and so is in, such and such should also be in." Low standard.
He beat some of the all-time greats to win those Championships and he beat Brady TWICE (No one else can say that). He beat Farve and Rogers in Lambeau field, and at the time I believe only Mike Vick had ever beat the Pack in Green Bay in the Playoffs.
That is stuff that will be heavily weighed. He also had the 2 Super Bowl MVPs as well with 4th Quarter Comebacks.
That's fine as everyone has their own standard, but why couldn't someone be even more exclusive than you? Why couldn't someone say that Drew Brees never won MVP and was only an First Team All-Pro once (AP or PFWA), and therefore isn't a HOFer. By comparison, Kurt Warner has two MVPs and two First Team All-Pro selections.
Is Dan Marino a HOFer? How can a QB be a HOFer if he only made it to one Super Bowl and didn't even win?
Since Ben went into his first season as the starting QB (2005), the Steelers are something like 13-10 in games where Ben doesn't even play. Eli is about to be under .500 for his career by the time this season is over.
Uh - most great QBs play for great teams - Bradshaw, Montana, Starr, Stabler, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Young...and on and on and on. So that shouldn’t be constructed as an argument against.
I contend, for but a few (arguably), that these players made their teams even better.
To me, BR has elevated Pittsburgh to even greater heights. His ability to improvise, buy time, hang in the pocket, and deliver in big moments is tremendous. I think he’s actually vastly underrated.
And getting to 3 SB appearances, and two SB wins, in the Brady and Manning eras is very impressive. Hell, those two alone have been to 12 of the past 18 SBs.
He’s not playing most of his career in a dome either like a Brees or Manning. He’s played in a cold weather division that requires big physical talent to succeed...
But the Steelers success is also about a lot more than Ben. In the first half of his career, Dick LeBeau brought a great defense every season. In the second half of his career, he had Bruce Arians and Todd Haley scheming great offenses.
And my point stands thatin the 1.5 seasons worth of games with Ben's back-ups over the course of nearly 15 years, they've had a better winning percentage than Eli had in his entire career. The back-ups! That speaks to the quality of the organization surrounding Ben.
That's fine as everyone has their own standard, but why couldn't someone be even more exclusive than you? Why couldn't someone say that Drew Brees never won MVP and was only an First Team All-Pro once (AP or PFWA), and therefore isn't a HOFer. By comparison, Kurt Warner has two MVPs and two First Team All-Pro selections.
Is Dan Marino a HOFer? How can a QB be a HOFer if he only made it to one Super Bowl and didn't even win?
A very consistent standard for HoF voting is: how often was this player viewed among the top among his peers?
Brees or Marino, though with fewer championship rings than Eli, each possesses far more superior Hall of Fame credential than Eli, because each has been viewed as a top 5 NFL QB in 8, 9 years over their careers, maybe more.
Eli, in at most 2 of his 15 years, and not because there was this vast and consistent conspiracy in the NFL and the media to maliciously suppress him.
2 out of 15 ......
I was pointing out that concept that the "if you have to ask" sentiment for judging Hall of Famers, or view that the Hall should be as limited as possible won't eliminate debate or borderline cases.
If the Hall gets more and more exclusive, then the "if you have to ask" question carries a different weight and will still lead to uncertainty.
But the Steelers success is also about a lot more than Ben. In the first half of his career, Dick LeBeau brought a great defense every season. In the second half of his career, he had Bruce Arians and Todd Haley scheming great offenses.
And my point stands thatin the 1.5 seasons worth of games with Ben's back-ups over the course of nearly 15 years, they've had a better winning percentage than Eli had in his entire career. The back-ups! That speaks to the quality of the organization surrounding Ben.
Agreed. So why can't we give the Steelers for drafting a great talent like BR?
In other words, while the Steelers do have a great infrastructure and history, BR has the talent to make the transition much, much easier.
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is that Ben played for a better-run organization with better defenses and better coordinators during his career and a much better offensive line and scheme the last half of their careers.
Since Ben went into his first season as the starting QB (2005), the Steelers are something like 13-10 in games where Ben doesn't even play. Eli is about to be under .500 for his career by the time this season is over.
Uh - most great QBs play for great teams - Bradshaw, Montana, Starr, Stabler, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Young...and on and on and on. So that shouldn’t be constructed as an argument against.
I contend, for but a few (arguably), that these players made their teams even better.
To me, BR has elevated Pittsburgh to even greater heights. His ability to improvise, buy time, hang in the pocket, and deliver in big moments is tremendous. I think he’s actually vastly underrated.
And getting to 3 SB appearances, and two SB wins, in the Brady and Manning eras is very impressive. Hell, those two alone have been to 12 of the past 18 SBs.
He’s not playing most of his career in a dome either like a Brees or Manning. He’s played in a cold weather division that requires big physical talent to succeed...
As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.
As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.
On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...
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As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.
On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...
He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing.
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As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.
On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...
So you’re saying despite being the common denominator of teams that have all world talent, he has underperformed in the playoffs? I mean 2 trophies is nice but hell Eli did that with far less talent in his career.
Right?
He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing.
Sure I can. Because you are assuming Eli could do the same thing as BR. You are assuming they have the same skill sets. And that's a bit laughable...
If you watch BR play, especially his ability to prolong plays, it doesn't take a trained eye to realize that Eli could not do anything near what Ben does. His improvisational skills are skills Eli dreams about. BR makes plays on the move laterally - both ways - and he makes plays with defenders draped all over him in the pocket.
It's really lazy to assume BR is merely a beneficiary of great talent. He's a great player at QB. Eli's a good player.
What's next? You're going to tell me Eli could have done what Montana did with the 9ers WCO?
There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in.
Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards.
Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio.
There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.
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He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing.
Sure I can. Because you are assuming Eli could do the same thing as BR. You are assuming they have the same skill sets. And that's a bit laughable...
If you watch BR play, especially his ability to prolong plays, it doesn't take a trained eye to realize that Eli could not do anything near what Ben does. His improvisational skills are skills Eli dreams about. BR makes plays on the move laterally - both ways - and he makes plays with defenders draped all over him in the pocket.
It's really lazy to assume BR is merely a beneficiary of great talent. He's a great player at QB. Eli's a good player.
What's next? You're going to tell me Eli could have done what Montana did with the 9ers WCO?
What does Montana have to do with anything? We are comparing Ben R and Eli, two people drafted in the same draft with similar passing stats. I never said he was merely a beneficiary of the talent around him at all, simply stating your making it sound as if all things are equal and the talent isn't benefiting him at all.
There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in.
Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards.
Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio.
There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.
I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games.
Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22).
It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm.
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There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in.
Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards.
Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio.
There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.
I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games.
Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22).
It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm.
Lol.
So with all the talent in the world surrounded him... he still won as many Super Bowls as Eli. By your standards, he has underperformed.... no?
Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don’t think the factors into anything, then I don’t know what to tell you.
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In comment 14167485 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:
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There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in.
Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards.
Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio.
There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.
I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games.
Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22).
It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm.
Lol.
So with all the talent in the world surrounded him... he still won as many Super Bowls as Eli. By your standards, he has underperformed.... no?
Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don’t think the factors into anything, then I don’t know what to tell you.
We're just pointing out the clear difference in individual statistics. At this point, it's blue colored glasses to think they are on equal footing. Yes, they've won the same number of Super Bowls, but let's not forget that the AFC ran has run thru 2 of the 3 or 4 greatest QB's of all time for the entirety of Ben's career in Brady and Manning. Since 2004, the AFC has been represented by one of those 3 every single season.
More talent than anyone not named Montana? Are we really now going to prop Ben's surrounding pieces up that much?
Going back to 2005, he had one year of Bettis, and then his weapons were Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle El, and Heath Miller, with Willie Parker at RB. Pretty much the same in 2006. In 2007, Santonio came aboard, with the others remaining the same. In 2009, Willie Parker was replaced with Rashard Mendenhall at RB. In 2010, Ward was done, and Mike Wallace came on. In 2012, Holmes was gone, and AB came into play. In 2013, Leveon Bell was added to the fold, with Emmanuel Sanders, while removing Wallace and Mendenhall. The next year Sanders was replaced by Wheaton. And we're left pretty much with where we are at.
Are these the game breaking talents, and "more talent than anyone in history not named Montana."
To summarize:
6 years of Hines Ward
5 years of AB
A collection of other receivers like a few years of Santonio, a few years of Mike Wallace, Antwaan Randle El, Markus Wheaton, 2 yers of Emmanuel, and currently Juju.
1 year of Bettis, multiple years of Rashard Mendenall and Willie Parker, and now 5 years of Leveon
Heath Miller for a long set, and currently Jesse James and Vance McDonald
We're really going to push that collection of talent that far ahead of the offensive weapon Eli has had?
Toomer for a few years
Plaxico for a few years
Shockey for a few years
Tiki
WR trio of Nicks/Cruz/Manningham
Cruz after the others departed for a few seasons
OBJ since 2014, and currently with Shep and Engram
RB collection of Bradshaw/Jacobs/Ward
I just don't think this talent gap is that far glaring.
There were years where our OL was stronger, and certainly years where his was. Ben's skill set certainly can make up for that a bit, where as Eli's magnifies the problem a bit more.
3 years of Cruz and Nicks
For the last 13 years, Eli didn’t have a RB in the stratosphere of Bell. People really over value Jacobs and Bradshaw on this site.
We haven’t had a high quality TE since Shockey.
And for the last 8 years our OL has been AWFUL.
And do you want to go into defenses?
Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don’t think the factors into anything, then I don’t know what to tell you.
For the historically challenged, and just for kicks, check out who the following QBs played with:
Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Kurt Warner, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler.
I eagerly await your revised statement.
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Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don’t think the factors into anything, then I don’t know what to tell you.
For the historically challenged, and just for kicks, check out who the following QBs played with:
Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Kurt Warner, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler.
I eagerly await your revised statement.
Todays game is so much more advanced than the majoriy of the QBs you listed in the 60s and 70s. The only modern day QBs you listed were Aikman and Warner (Warner never had the defenses that Ben has to play with - curious why thats never mentioned). You want to argue Aikman, fine Ill give you that.
But to say Ben hasnt played with a wealth of riches since the day he stepped on the field is just being silly at this point, which is coming to no one's surprise.
The fact of the matter is outside Peyton, Ben has never gone into a season with a roster that could not compete against anyone, and that includes Tom Brady.
The offense is not debatable..
Mike wallace averaged over 1000 yards and 8 TDs
Holmes averasged 950 yards per season and 6 TDs
Ward averaged nearly a 1000 yards per year and 6-7 TDs.
Bryant had a really two good years before his troubles.
You have bell and Brown as well. Smith Schuster is probably a top 3 #2 WR in the league.
Willie Parker averaged over 1300 yards over a 3 season span.
Rashad Mendenhall averaged over 1000 yards and 10 TDs per season with the Steelers.
Miller averaged 600 yards per season.
Do you want to know who has a real beef with their organization? Aaron Rodgers. He's a generational talent like Marino. Those are the guys who are actually victims of organizations who expect their QBs to make chicken salad out of some chicken sh-t year after year after year...Eli does not have anywhere near that talent to do elevate teams like those players.
As for Eli's so called lack of talent vs BR's consider this...
They both plated with Plax. So that's a wash.
Right now, they both have brilliant WRs - Brown and OBJ.
BR never played with a TE like Shockey.
IMV, Tiki was a better all-around RB than Bettis and should be in the HoF like Bettis.
Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Toomer, Smitty, etc have been very, very productive WRs for Eli. There is no room to complain about the receiving talent TC furnished for Eli.
And he's had a fair stable of very competent RBs - Tiki, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Dayne, etc.
So....Eli has had offensive play making talent around him essentially his ENTIRE career.
Lately, I do agree, the last several years we have seen Jints Central struggle to build the oline.
But I also wonder this - perhaps the problem is equally Eli. It's clearer every year that he needs almost every facet of the offense to be at a high level to maximize Eli's skills. And that puts a tremendous onus on the FO to hit on a lot of draft picks and FAs to create that environment.
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the offensive talent is certainly debatable. Before Bell, I don't think the backs were spectacular. Willie Parker managed two good years, but no steelers fan will tell you he was any good. More of the product of the line like Derrick Ward popping off a 1000 yd season at nearly 6 a clip. And I thought we had a stronger receiving corps. Ben, unquestionably, did have the far superior defenses. That said the past 6 seasons they have been middle of the pack, last year being the exception (13,18,21,12,5,12).
The offense is not debatable..
Mike wallace averaged over 1000 yards and 8 TDs
Holmes averasged 950 yards per season and 6 TDs
Ward averaged nearly a 1000 yards per year and 6-7 TDs.
Bryant had a really two good years before his troubles.
You have bell and Brown as well. Smith Schuster is probably a top 3 #2 WR in the league.
Willie Parker averaged over 1300 yards over a 3 season span.
Rashad Mendenhall averaged over 1000 yards and 10 TDs per season with the Steelers.
Miller averaged 600 yards per season.
Without any hesitation I would take Bradshaw/Jacobs/Ward over Willie Parker, Mendenhall, and the broken bus. From 07-12, they averaged ~1700 yards and ~13 TDs. Our backs outgained theirs 11658 to 9838 over that time and outrushed them every year besides 2011 as well as scoring 36 more TDs. You can't say before Bell's second year the steelers were superior with a straight face. The eyes and the numbers don't support that.
Overall I'd say Ben has had better and more consistent wideouts. We had a couple years where injuries hit us and were left fielding guys like hixon, hagan, moss, etc.. here's the yearly top 3 for each team. We had a couple years with better players and better production, at least until Brown became the superstar he is in 2013.
You have a higher opinion of Wallace than I. I thought he benefited way more from Ben than Ben did from him. His failure away from Pitt was not a surprise. Neither was Holmes's.
2005 ward/randle el/wilson vs toomer/burress/carter
2006 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/carter
2007 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/moss
2008 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/hixon/smith
2009 ward/wallace/holmes vs hicks/manningham/smith
2010 ward/wallace/sanders vs hicks/manningham/smith
2011 ward/wallace/brown vs hicks/manningham/cruz
2012 brown/wallace/sanders vs hicks/hixon/cruz
2013 brown/cotchery/sanders vs hicks/randle/cruz
2014 brown/wheaton/bryant vs Beckham/randle/cruz
2015 brown/wheaton/bryant vs beckham/randle/harris
2016 brown/rogers/coates vsbeckham/shepard/cruz
2017 brown/schister smith/bryant vs beckham/shepard/lewis
I personally think Heath Miller was one of the most overrated players of the past decade+. Every game they talked him up. He blocked ok, caught ok, but he was not in the league with the Shockey's or Bennett's of the world imo. Here's the breakdown of the TE stats over the years.
NYG YDS TD
2005 1083 7
2006 704 7
2007 765 5
2008 456 8
2009 663 5
2010 719 7
2011 833 5
2012 661 6
2013 639 4
2014 861 11
2015 828 5
2016 609 3
2017 1049 8
TOTAL 9870 81
PIT
2005 522 6
2006 466 6
2007 609 11
2008 674 3
2009 823 7
2010 638 3
2011 660 3
2012 876 10
2013 784 2
2014 808 5
2015 601 3
2016 840 6
2017 592 5
TOTAL 8893 70
Do you want to know who has a real beef with their organization? Aaron Rodgers. He's a generational talent like Marino. Those are the guys who are actually victims of organizations who expect their QBs to make chicken salad out of some chicken sh-t year after year after year...Eli does not have anywhere near that talent to do elevate teams like those players.
As for Eli's so called lack of talent vs BR's consider this...
They both plated with Plax. So that's a wash.
Right now, they both have brilliant WRs - Brown and OBJ.
BR never played with a TE like Shockey.
IMV, Tiki was a better all-around RB than Bettis and should be in the HoF like Bettis.
Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Toomer, Smitty, etc have been very, very productive WRs for Eli. There is no room to complain about the receiving talent TC furnished for Eli.
And he's had a fair stable of very competent RBs - Tiki, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Dayne, etc.
So....Eli has had offensive play making talent around him essentially his ENTIRE career.
Lately, I do agree, the last several years we have seen Jints Central struggle to build the oline.
But I also wonder this - perhaps the problem is equally Eli. It's clearer every year that he needs almost every facet of the offense to be at a high level to maximize Eli's skills. And that puts a tremendous onus on the FO to hit on a lot of draft picks and FAs to create that environment.
The problem is the "productive players" Shockey and Barber were only there for the first two years. Cruz had only 2 good years. Nicks only had 2 good years. Smith had 1 great year.
The Nicks, Cruz, Manningham trio could have been historically epic but injuries prevented that from happening. But from 2010 to 2012 was the only time where I would have taken our skilled players over the Steelers but unfortunately our key guys got hurt.
And ron dayne was never ever productive.
How many seasons of Eli behind this offensive line with zero ability to pass protect or run block will it take for some to realize the impact that the 5 (6 if you include the TE) have on the ability for an offense to function?
Comparing Willie Parker to Bradshaw? Who cares. We have Saquan Barkley and 45% of his runs go for 1 yard or less.
No run blocking for almost a decade, no pass protection for almost a decade and a carousel at TE.
Not to mention some of the worst defenses (scoring-wise) in the history of the sport.
These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.
And, he was not often a great QB during regular seasons. That's why, despite the two SB wins (in a watered down era), he isn't held in as high regard as with NYG fans.
Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points?
There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB.
Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.
Whats the narrative between the two if they switched teams the last 6 years?
My answer? Ben would have retired already.
Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points?
There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB.
Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.
Nice write-up.
Here's the other thing - when Eli has had a competent line, how many truly great years has he had? Maybe one? The guy has been a double-digit INT machine his entire career - averaging roughly 16 INTs/year.
If not for the SBs - and you certainly can't throw those 8 weeks out - Eli has not had a regular season HoF career. Not even close. Based on his regular season output, he's essentially Andy Dalton.
RB Yards: Yards per carry by that team's running backs, according to standard NFL numbers.
Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.
Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage. Since being stuffed is bad, teams are ranked from stuffed least often (#1) to most often (#32).
Second Level Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn between 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
Open Field Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
I highlighted in red where the Giants ranked below the Steelers. One thing I keep seeing posted is how the steelers have always had this great line and giants had shit. Untrue. We had the best line I ever saw on the giants dating back to the 80s. Meanwhile the steelers weren't always that great. In 04 they had some injuries and started 2 journeyman on the right side and Ben got pounded until 2014 as pointed out above.
Link - ( New Window )
JFC.
JFC.
Again, he said take away the SB runs, and Eli's regular season numbers are very similar to Andy Dalton. This is why it's all such a crazy debate with Eli. Like I mentioned earlier, the laurels we have to rest on right now are the 2 SB runs, an iron man streak, and counting statistics, which by the time he retires, will be pushed down a few notches on all leaderboards. That's why his regular season numbers are definitely something you have to look at as well, and how has he performed compared to his peers at the time. It's why a "Will Eli get in to the HoF" debate, is a hot topic.
Just entertain this for a minute. Without looking anything up, tell me which QB is which. These QB's all have 7+ year sample sizes, and these are career regular season averages to date. All are currently active.
#1:
64.2% Completion
3,687 Yards
28 TD's-9 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC
#2:
62.4% Completion
3,779 Yards
25 TD's-14 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC
#3:
64.2% Completion
4,125 Yards
27 TD's-14 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC
#4:
60.2% Completion
3,861 Yards
25 TD's-17 INT's
7.0 YPA / 11.7 YPC
#5:
62.3% Completion
4,434 Yards
28 TD's-15 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC
#6:
65.2% Completion
4,287 Yards
27 TD's-12 INT's
7.5 YPA / 11.6 YPC
#7:
64.4% Completion
4,124 Yards
28 TD's-13 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.1 YPC
I'll come back in a few and post who's who, but I'm curious to see what you think, and how you would rank this list of QB's looking solely at these numbers.
That's fair enough. But with how differently Eli is viewed around the league, it is certainly something that is fair to bring into a debate on Eli's Hall chances. You want to say stats are not something you judge a QB on (I'm going to assume because there are a lot of other factors at play to get to those numbers), but then that reasoning would be the same for his Super Bowl's. There were a lot of other factors than just Eli.
Right now, the only consistent checks Eli gets for the Hall are SB/MVP x2, and Iron Man. There is no stat that when compared to his peers that really separates him from the pack. We can look at the counting stats (yards-TD's), but like I said before, he's going to be pushed down a lot of these leader-boards in the next few years, and in most cases outside of the top 10-12. Will 12+ years of QB play where most of it was spent at average/above average, with only a few seasons really excellent, be enough to dissuade the voters from allowing him in, maybe? It really is a NY sports tragedy how the organization went about surrounding/protecting the franchise QB after 2011. I sure hope your outlook is what comes to light, would be one hell of a day for all us fans.
The QB's from above anyway:
1- Russ Wilson
2- Andy Dalton
3- Ben Roethlisberger
4- Eli Manning
5- Matt Stafford
6- Matt Ryan
7- Phil Rivers