Eli snub during SNF?

.

train, but these last few years have severely dented his image.

He also has limited playoff appearances, and outside of the 2 super bowl runs, has not won a single other playoff game.

and as much as I love Eli I have a terrible gut feeling he is never gonna make the HOF. People are too focused on "stats" anymore and don't look at the big picture.

I think he deserves it, but there's a lot of people that don't.

Neither Ben nor Eli really have a place in that group. Not that it's a slight against Ben or Eli. Those four are on the modern era Mt. Rushmore.

what Tosh.0 said about him last week...

..if they included Rivers in that snippet, as the three are forever linked.

Eli will be in the HOF, probably not first ballot, but he deserves it with everything he's accomplished, and the way he carries himself.

Has no bearing on the HOF.

Phil Simms is not in the Hall, Eli is far from a lock

Eli's situation and play the last 5 years has removed him from those conversations, probably for good.

the last few years of play it really isn't surprising.

On a note -the last playoff game Eli played - he played well - too bad his WR's couldn't catch a cold that game.

....All Time Top 10 in every major passing category =
....No brainer, 1st Ballot HOFer
Eli has the trophies AND the stats to back him up

but ELI is on his last legs unless he puts together another big season before retirement. Thats not looking very good now. But you never know, will be rooting for him.

JFC, he doesn't belong up there, simple.

In comment 14165887 joeinpa said:

Quote:

Has no bearing on the HOF. Phil Simms is not in the Hall, Eli is far from a lock

In your opinion, not mine. Eli is a true professional. Never criticizes the press, nor his teammates......guaranteed some writers will look at that, especially playing in NY which is super tough.

Phil Simms? HOF? Simms was my fav Giant before Eli. Simms was hurt A TON, didn't QB that second SB team to victory in Tampa, and consequently his stats suffered from all the injuries.

How exactly is he a HOF'er? LOL

In comment 14165907 Emlen'sGremlins said:

Quote:

....All Time Top 10 in every major passing category = ....No brainer, 1st Ballot HOFer Eli has the trophies AND the stats to back him up

Yeah, he�s a lock as I see it. The only question I have is WHEN.

are in a different class. I dont think Ben or Eli are close to that group.

Ben and Eli are in the same class. For features like that you have to consider the current/recent state of affairs. The Steelers are still good and have a good offense. They're a draw. Nobody is excited about watching the giants, not even most giants fans.

2011 was an eternity ago.

These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.

In comment 14165889 Mike in Long Beach said:

Quote:

Eli's situation and play the last 5 years has removed him from those conversations, probably for good.

IDK, '14 and '15 he put up very good stats, and in '16 made the playoffs.

The last two years have been real tough......but a ton of great players have horrid endings........that's usually forgotten.

after SB 46. Now it's unlikely. He'll probably retire with a losing record.

For the record I think he should be in.

In comment 14165908 TMS said:

Quote:

but ELI is on his last legs unless he puts together another big season before retirement. Thats not looking very good now. But you never know, will be rooting for him.

You think Ben makes it? LOL.....he's certainly a HOFer, and more certain than Eli (although both make it).

In comment 14165935 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 14165908 TMS said: Quote: but ELI is on his last legs unless he puts together another big season before retirement. Thats not looking very good now. But you never know, will be rooting for him. You think Ben makes it? LOL.....he's certainly a HOFer, and more certain than Eli (although both make it).

Right. It's preposterous to suggest Roeth is on the same borderline as Eli. Ben has had a more prolific career. He's a great QB.

because their mistake was adding Ben when he did not belong. He is not at the level of the others in that group.

I don't think he's getting in, and I think a strong case can be made that he isn't deserving. He needs another ring while playing good football and it's unlikely he'll get one.

The two Super Bowls just means he's closer to Jim Plunkett than he does, say, a Roger Staubach.

One is in the HOF and deservedly so, and one is not.

and how the rest of of the league views Eli is enormous. I think that's something that most Giants fans don't get.

I think it's fair to say that most non-Giants fans view Eli as a middle of the pack QB who had two great SB runs in him.

In comment 14165889 Mike in Long Beach said:

Quote:

Eli's situation and play the last 5 years has removed him from those conversations, probably for good.

I have to agree with this. Especially since he'll probably finish below .500 for his career. The saver may be all his other accomplishments in yards and TD's etc etc along with the 2 Super Bowl wins but I wouldn't bet on it.

Rivers and Ben. If they are in he should be in. No doubt.

In comment 14165948 allstarjim said:

Quote:

I don't think he's getting in, and I think a strong case can be made that he isn't deserving. He needs another ring while playing good football and it's unlikely he'll get one. The two Super Bowls just means he's closer to Jim Plunkett than he does, say, a Roger Staubach. One is in the HOF and deservedly so, and one is not.

Not sure how you can compare him to Jim Plunkett.

Here's where clarity matters - beyond saying "oh, he has two Super Bowls."

Plunkett was a #1 pick who failed miserably in New England. Then he went to the Raiders as a backup.

By circumstance, he got to start and yes did QB the Raiders to two SBs which was a great accomplishment. But then he hardly played after that.

But his career, as far as longevity, doesn't measure up.

Eli has doubled him in nearly every critical stat. And yes, that's because he's played longer. And longevity, especially at the QB position, is something that needs to be considered.

So I don't know how you can compare Plunkett to EManning, other than the two trophies............

In comment 14165949 Tesla said:

Quote:

and how the rest of of the league views Eli is enormous. I think that's something that most Giants fans don't get. I think it's fair to say that most non-Giants fans view Eli as a middle of the pack QB who had two great SB runs in him.

I certainly get it. And Eli definitely gets some raw treatment because he's Peyton's little brother. He's a very easy target.

He's played 15 years, won two SB MVPs, and is among the top 10 when he retires in TDs and passing yards.

I mean, he's not the best of all time LOL, but I'd say that deserves to be in the HOF - at least the way it's defined today and guys who get in.

He's a no doubter.

He'll eclipse Manning in passing yards this year but the big difference is he's 140-65-1 as a starter while Eli is 112-110.

He has nearly the same career passing numbers and TDs (Big Ben 345, Eli 347) as Eli despite playing an entire season's worth fewer games than Eli (16).

And oh yeah, Eli has thrown FIFTY-THREE more interceptions than Roethlisberger and 23 more fumbles. Even giving Roethlisberger another 16 INTs, Eli would still have thrown 37 more INTs than Big Ben.

When looking at their careers, they both have won two Super Bowls and that's where the similarities end. Eli has been more durable and I'd never take away or diminish his amazing iron man streak, but Big Ben has been by far the superior player throughout his career and will be in the Hall of Fame while Eli's chances are somewhat suspect.

In comment 14165969 allstarjim said:

Quote:

He's a no doubter. He'll eclipse Manning in passing yards this year but the big difference is he's 140-65-1 as a starter while Eli is 112-110. He has nearly the same career passing numbers and TDs (Big Ben 345, Eli 347) as Eli despite playing an entire season's worth fewer games than Eli (16). And oh yeah, Eli has thrown FIFTY-THREE more interceptions than Roethlisberger and 23 more fumbles. Even giving Roethlisberger another 16 INTs, Eli would still have thrown 37 more INTs than Big Ben. When looking at their careers, they both have won two Super Bowls and that's where the similarities end. Eli has been more durable and I'd never take away or diminish his amazing iron man streak, but Big Ben has been by far the superior player throughout his career and will be in the Hall of Fame while Eli's chances are somewhat suspect.

Not that this really matters, but the first SB that Ben won, I could have played QB and won the game. He was a ZERO factor (although played brilliantly in the playoffs up to that if I remember correctly).

In fact, many will tell you Seattle was cheated out of that win.

He played great in the second SB, esp on the final drive.

Lost his third.

Ben is the better QB....I don't think that's even debatable. But that doesn't exclude Eli from the conversation...............

In comment 14165949 Tesla said:

Quote:

and how the rest of of the league views Eli is enormous. I think that's something that most Giants fans don't get. I think it's fair to say that most non-Giants fans view Eli as a middle of the pack QB who had two great SB runs in him.

the other thing is it just feels like when we have a nationally televised game, it is a bad one. Not only for the team but also for Eli.

The true numbers may say otherwise and I was not talking about playoffs. It just feels like when the entire country gets to watch a Giants game, they see a shit show too often. A reflection on Eli unfortunately.

In comment 14165949 Tesla said:

Quote:

and how the rest of of the league views Eli is enormous. I think that's something that most Giants fans don't get.

I've been saying that for years on these Eli HOF threads - the people that were certain he would make it easily were fooling themselves. They refused to accept how most of the league has always viewed the guy.

Dude made MILLIONS playing a fucking game. NO major injuries during his career. Won two superbowls. That human has been blessed enough. :)

The Steelers have not had a losing record since they drafted him. You can argue about the quality of coaching and surrounding talent but Ben has led that team to far more consistent success.

In comment 14165964 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 14165948 allstarjim said: Quote: I don't think he's getting in, and I think a strong case can be made that he isn't deserving. He needs another ring while playing good football and it's unlikely he'll get one. The two Super Bowls just means he's closer to Jim Plunkett than he does, say, a Roger Staubach. One is in the HOF and deservedly so, and one is not. Not sure how you can compare him to Jim Plunkett. Here's where clarity matters - beyond saying "oh, he has two Super Bowls." Plunkett was a #1 pick who failed miserably in New England. Then he went to the Raiders as a backup. By circumstance, he got to start and yes did QB the Raiders to two SBs which was a great accomplishment. But then he hardly played after that. But his career, as far as longevity, doesn't measure up. Eli has doubled him in nearly every critical stat. And yes, that's because he's played longer. And longevity, especially at the QB position, is something that needs to be considered. So I don't know how you can compare Plunkett to EManning, other than the two trophies............

You can't just disregard the respective era that these players are playing in. This is the friendliest era in football history for passing stats.

Plunkett was around a .500 QB in a career where he won two Super Bowls. Eli is around a .500 QB in a career where he won two Super Bowls. I'm not saying they are the same QB, I'm saying Eli's HOF worthiness is closer to Plunkett's who is not in the Hall than it is to someone like Staubach who is in the Hall (in reference to multiple Super Bowl winners).

I'm a Giants fan, I'm not a deluded homer into thinking Eli has been one of the game's greatest players. I honestly think Eli's best case for the Hall is defeating the undefeated Patriots in XLII. That game is so historic and iconic that it remains, in my opinion, the greatest Super Bowl of all time and the greatest upset of all time, with apologies to Namath and the Jets.

However, that win was a team win, and even though Eli deserves credit, come on...the defense was what really gave the Giants a chance to win that game. On the balance, I think Eli is just outside the HOF. He has a chance, but at no point in his career did I think, "this guy is one of the best two or three quarterbacks playing in the NFL." And I think for HOF entry you should be one of the best at your position at some point in your career.

In comment 14165949 Tesla said:

Quote:

and how the rest of of the league views Eli is enormous. I think that's something that most Giants fans don't get. I think it's fair to say that most non-Giants fans view Eli as a middle of the pack QB who had two great SB runs in him.

This. The rest of the league sees Eli as somewhere between Jim Plunkett, Trent Dilfer, and Rex Grossman.

His having a losing record when he retires will be a huge blow too.

He's not sniffing the Hall of Fame sadly.

In comment 14165993 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14165964 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 14165948 allstarjim said: Quote: I don't think he's getting in, and I think a strong case can be made that he isn't deserving. He needs another ring while playing good football and it's unlikely he'll get one. The two Super Bowls just means he's closer to Jim Plunkett than he does, say, a Roger Staubach. One is in the HOF and deservedly so, and one is not. Not sure how you can compare him to Jim Plunkett. Here's where clarity matters - beyond saying "oh, he has two Super Bowls." Plunkett was a #1 pick who failed miserably in New England. Then he went to the Raiders as a backup. By circumstance, he got to start and yes did QB the Raiders to two SBs which was a great accomplishment. But then he hardly played after that. But his career, as far as longevity, doesn't measure up. Eli has doubled him in nearly every critical stat. And yes, that's because he's played longer. And longevity, especially at the QB position, is something that needs to be considered. So I don't know how you can compare Plunkett to EManning, other than the two trophies............ You can't just disregard the respective era that these players are playing in. This is the friendliest era in football history for passing stats. Plunkett was around a .500 QB in a career where he won two Super Bowls. Eli is around a .500 QB in a career where he won two Super Bowls. I'm not saying they are the same QB, I'm saying Eli's HOF worthiness is closer to Plunkett's who is not in the Hall than it is to someone like Staubach who is in the Hall (in reference to multiple Super Bowl winners). I'm a Giants fan, I'm not a deluded homer into thinking Eli has been one of the game's greatest players. I honestly think Eli's best case for the Hall is defeating the undefeated Patriots in XLII. That game is so historic and iconic that it remains, in my opinion, the greatest Super Bowl of all time and the greatest upset of all time, with apologies to Namath and the Jets. However, that win was a team win, and even though Eli deserves credit, come on...the defense was what really gave the Giants a chance to win that game. On the balance, I think Eli is just outside the HOF. He has a chance, but at no point in his career did I think, "this guy is one of the best two or three quarterbacks playing in the NFL." And I think for HOF entry you should be one of the best at your position at some point in your career.

Roethlisberger was never one of the best 2-3 QBs playing but he'll end up in the Hall of Fame.

can talk about their opinions of Eli, and then when considering the opinions of other non-Giants fans, think of it as a bias. Is it maybe possible that the bias exists in the Giants fan base, and not in the rest of the world?

We all watch him more than others so there is some basis to the line that the stats don't tell the whole story. But do many people believe that Giants fans can view Eli more objectively than everyone else?

I love Eli, but I don't think he is going into the Hall of Fame. I'd love to see it and hope he does, but the last few years he's played still count in the body of work.

have said this before.....

After the 2011 season, you would think he would be a lock......

But these last 7 years have tarnished what he accomplished in '07 and '11....

He is top 10 of a lot of categories by virtue of the many games he has played......

2011 was his best year: 29 tds, 16 int, 4933 yards, 61%.....not the greatest of numbers, but clutch in the 4th quarter....He never had that one stat year, where he stood out....While 2015 was his best stat year, it pales in comparison to other QB's of his era....

Just 2 seasons out of 15 where his team won a playoff game?

He still might get in, but he is nowhere close to a first ballot lock...

Does Brees need another ring? Peyton? What if Eli had switched places with Brees or Brady these past 6 years? Jim Kelly is in? Eli gets in.

In comment 14165972 BillKo said:

Quote:

Not that this really matters, but the first SB that Ben won, I could have played QB and won the game. He was a ZERO factor (although played brilliantly in the playoffs up to that if I remember correctly). In fact, many will tell you Seattle was cheated out of that win. He played great in the second SB, esp on the final drive. Lost his third. Ben is the better QB....I don't think that's even debatable. But that doesn't exclude Eli from the conversation...............

Go look at that first SB run by Pittsburgh and BR. BR was terrific in the wins over Cincinnati and at Denver.

True - he was listless in the SB.

And he was magnificent when the Steelers beat Cardinals in 2009 on the last second throw to Holmes.

if somehow he plays for the Giants next year, which is doubtful, and they somehow manage to fix the OL, and he plays well behind it, then there is a possibility that he will be looked at a little differently, for the lines he had to play behind these last 7 seasons....

I've never considered him elite in the way the others are considered but I always assumed 2 SB wins (and MVPs) plus being in the top 6/7 in yards and TDs... Plus the Iron Man streak... would be enough.

Character supposedly matters. Most certainly his rape charges might keep him out even if the �rape-ees� dropped the charges, undoubtedly after a hefty settlement. In fact the charges were so serious that Rooney was seriously considering parting ways with him as I recall..

So, it will depend on those voters who have an axe to grind with that POS.

Just sayin�

Is and will be a hall of fame. 5 guys in the history of the league are 2 time Superbowl mbps. I once met Ray didinger. A hall of fame writer in Philly. Great guy. Told me Elis in. Says he beat Favre, rodgers, 49ers, Cowboys and Brady all on road or neutral sites in playoffs. Said people will put him in. Here's why. People want rivers in but with no playoff success if eli won't get in then rivers won't. Said guys negotiate deals all the time hall of fame votes. Elis in.

In the playoffs a big deal. This conversation was in november

Last year.

but the Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year award is a notable accomplishment. The HOF voters recognize it in conjunction with a player's body of work.

In comment 14166046 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

but the Walter Payton NFL Man of the Year award is a notable accomplishment. The HOF voters recognize it in conjunction with a player's body of work.

👍

is not a HOF QB. He�s had a nice long career but he�s had some bad stretches as a QB at the beginning and end of his career.o

Eli should have been a HoF QB and he was well on track for that after 2011.

The Giants' terrible roster management over the last 5+ years is why he's not going to get in.

Pretty shitty, but it's reality. He's no longer a guy anyone outside of NY looks at as a HoF'er.

He's getting in. I totally disagree w you

he's 3-1 vs Brady
2-4 vs Rodgers
1-7 vs Brees
1-3 vs Ben

In playoffs he's
2-0 vs Brady
2-1 vs Rodgers

All he had to do at that point was dress it up. A few 10-6 type seasons and maybe another playoff game win and he'd be perceived extremely differently.

Now, to the objective viewer, his career is about two games.

Are going play a big role with voters.

But gun to head right now, I think he misses it.

The Giants clusterf*ck of a roster costruction has did him no favors.

In comment 14166060 jtgiants said:

Quote:

He's getting in. I totally disagree w you

You can if you'd like - but he's probably not going to get in.

These last few years did enormous damage and he's going to go out of this league with a losing record.

Perception of Eli Manning's career outside of NY is not favorable. He's looked at as more of a guy who got hot a few times than a guy who was a consistent winner.

The org failed him. It's not his fault, but it's reality.

the defense did it? He beat the 18-0 Patriots. They had a pretty good defense too right? Eli outplayed Brady in that one. And the 10-6 Giants were underdogs going in, with every playoff game on the road. Bucs, Dallas, Packers/outplaying Favre. Then Eli took a 9-7 team into the playoffs 4 years later and beat the 15-3 Pats again, again outplaying Brady. And Rodgers along the way for that matter. MVP in both SB games against teams that were 33-3. He didn't play the Seahawks and the Cardinals like Ben did. Top 6/7 all time in yards, attempts, completions, TDs. He won Super Bowls when he shouldn't have with inferior teams. Eli Manning is going to the HOF. These shitstorms of OL play the past few seasons will delay it a few years, but he's going in.

definitely a BBI echo chamber re. Eli. I know a lot of non Giants NFL fans & most don't consider Eli to be a HOFer at all.

If Manning's accomplishments mean nothing to you emotionally, consider:

- He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many
- He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record
- He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner
- He's never been an All Pro
- 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand
- He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons
- He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league

Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot.

I think you miss the point. Your right on perception league wide but here's what you miss. The perception of the voters is favorable. That's what counts. Well agree to disagree but he will make it. Also don't discount Archie and the manning family influence. He will make it

In comment 14165866 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

Quote:

train, but these last few years have severely dented his image. He also has limited playoff appearances, and outside of the 2 super bowl runs, has not won a single other playoff game.

What?? Are you even nuts?? Ask Aaron Rogers and Tony Romo about that.

He�s a shoe in.

The stats are almost identical (although Ben may be pulling ahead the last year or two). Difference is Ben always had more to work with including top 10 defenses almost every year.

I actually think Rivers is better than Ben too, but doesn't have a ring. Eli has two rings, therefore, he belongs in the same conversation as Ben.

Eli should be in.

In comment 14166113 jtgiants said:

Quote:

I think you miss the point. Your right on perception league wide but here's what you miss. The perception of the voters is favorable. That's what counts. Well agree to disagree but he will make it. Also don't discount Archie and the manning family influence. He will make it

I fully expect after the 5 year waiting period, there will be a full PR blitz. Fans can bitch all they want, but Eli is getting in. It depends on who is eligible when he is whether he will be first ballot or not.

In comment 14165927 Go Terps said:

Quote:

2011 was an eternity ago. These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.

A HoF candidate in today's NFL also can't have a career record of 2 meager games above .500 in his 15 years, and can't be considered as top 5 among his peers in meager 2 years out of those 15.

How people continue to be so cocksure about Eli being a Hall of Famer -- "just may not be on first ballot" -- is really mindboggling to me.

I don't think he's HoF caliber, but I feel he will eventually get in. There is something to be said for longevity. There are several current players that have better per game averages, but few qbs stay healthy over their career so I don't think he will slide down that far before he's eligible.

As far as the last couple years hurting his chances. I'm not so sure. His post-2011 numbers are actually much better than his pre-2011 numbers in pretty much every statistic, but the winning percentage is obviously down. Eli had an amazing 2011, but before that he was near the top of the league in all the negative stats, and middle of the pack or below in the positive ones (*y/a, rating, comp %, y/g). Though he always threw a good amount of TDs.

I love him as much as any Giant fan, but he was/is a flawed qb and that's the way the media views him. I don't think they go out of their way to snub him or insult his legacy. Had he continued putting up 2011 numbers he'd be a lock for the HoF, but if he continued his play prior I think we'd still be having the conversation about him being on the fence. The biggest thing he has going for him are the two victories over the Pats dynasty and unfortunately I think a little bit of the shine wore off when the Eagles won last year. It would have been a piece of trivia asked all the time, "Who was the only team to beat the Belichick Patriots". Now it's not unique.

Eli will get in but it will be quite a few years down the road. If not after he will get in what I believe is the senior committee?

Very few voters are going to know all the circumstances with Eli even though his presenters will paint the picture as best possible. I believe bottom line is many will feel a first ballot or shortly thereafter HOF warrants a cleaner resume without blaming so many other factors.

The only way this changes imo is


A. Eli comes back for his last year and somehow the Giants put it all together and he makes a deep run.....very unlikely.

B. Eli goes to another team and takes them to Super Bowl or maybe even a Championship game. Then everyone will see it was the Giants who could not provide adequate support.

In comment 14165969 allstarjim said:

Quote:

He's a no doubter. He'll eclipse Manning in passing yards this year but the big difference is he's 140-65-1 as a starter while Eli is 112-110. He has nearly the same career passing numbers and TDs (Big Ben 345, Eli 347) as Eli despite playing an entire season's worth fewer games than Eli (16). And oh yeah, Eli has thrown FIFTY-THREE more interceptions than Roethlisberger and 23 more fumbles. Even giving Roethlisberger another 16 INTs, Eli would still have thrown 37 more INTs than Big Ben. When looking at their careers, they both have won two Super Bowls and that's where the similarities end. Eli has been more durable and I'd never take away or diminish his amazing iron man streak, but Big Ben has been by far the superior player throughout his career and will be in the Hall of Fame while Eli's chances are somewhat suspect.

Did you say 53 more interceptions and 23 more fumbles??

In comment 14166113 jtgiants said:

Quote:

I think you miss the point. Your right on perception league wide but here's what you miss. The perception of the voters is favorable. That's what counts. Well agree to disagree but he will make it. Also don't discount Archie and the manning family influence. He will make it

How do you know what the perception amongst the voters is?

Too much certainty here for a guy who is going to be a very unique case. He has the hardware that matters, but outside of one season, he's never really been on par with the elite QB's in the league. He's never been an all pro.

I don't really care about pro bowls.. but just 4 in 15 years.

Zero league MVP's. 234 career interceptions.

He doesn't have as strong a case as you think and Archie isn't going to have any impact on this.

I hope he gets in. But the way his career tracked after the 2011-12 season, it has had a very negative impact on his case whether you want to admit that or not.

In comment 14166120 LAXin said:

Quote:

In comment 14165927 Go Terps said: Quote: 2011 was an eternity ago. These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy. A HoF candidate in today's NFL also can't have a career record of 2 meager games above .500 in his 15 years, and can't be considered as top 5 among his peers in meager 2 years out of those 15. How people continue to be so cocksure about Eli being a Hall of Famer -- "just may not be on first ballot" -- is really mindboggling to me.

Cocksure!

In 15 years, Eli has never led the league in passing yards, TD passes, rating.... nothing.

The only thing he's ever led the NFL in is interceptions.

3 separate times.

feeling good about having John Mara as owner (as late as 2012); feeling so good about Jerry Reese that if Giants were ever foolish enough to let him go, he could get another job within hours; feeling lucky to have out-maneuvered the Eagles in hurrying Ben McAdoo into the head coaching position ("ha ha, they got stuck with this no-name Doug Pederson guy while we pro-actively kept McAdoo!!").

And of course, feeling so good about Eli's Hall of Fame chance, even now, with the only uncertainty being "may not be on FIRST BALLOT".

Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years of overlaps with Eli, at least four of them are head and shoulder above him, the "don't even mention them in the same sentence" kind of separation, and two others are viewed as no worse by most of the country outside of NYC. Which first ballot HOFer has been so un-revered?

is in.

You have to be kidding me.

In comment 14166116 Scuzzlebutt said:

Quote:

The stats are almost identical (although Ben may be pulling ahead the last year or two). Difference is Ben always had more to work with including top 10 defenses almost every year. I actually think Rivers is better than Ben too, but doesn't have a ring. Eli has two rings, therefore, he belongs in the same conversation as Ben.

Really? What material stats are identical?

For example - check out: completion %, TD/INT ratio, ypa, game winning drives, QBR, etc.

Look forward to your reply.

In comment 14166144 Big Blue '56 said:

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Cocksure!

Look, I have only watched Giants football for 30 years, and you much longer. But I really think you will be greatly disappointed when Eli is still looking to get in when he's closer to 60 yo than 50.

But rest assured, IF I am wrong, IF Eli gets in before, say, 2030, I will not be bitter about it. I will not view it as a personal defeat/loss.

In comment 14166140 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 14166113 jtgiants said: Quote: I think you miss the point. Your right on perception league wide but here's what you miss. The perception of the voters is favorable. That's what counts. Well agree to disagree but he will make it. Also don't discount Archie and the manning family influence. He will make it How do you know what the perception amongst the voters is? Too much certainty here for a guy who is going to be a very unique case. He has the hardware that matters, but outside of one season, he's never really been on par with the elite QB's in the league. He's never been an all pro. I don't really care about pro bowls.. but just 4 in 15 years. Zero league MVP's. 234 career interceptions. He doesn't have as strong a case as you think and Archie isn't going to have any impact on this. I hope he gets in. But the way his career tracked after the 2011-12 season, it has had a very negative impact on his case whether you want to admit that or not.

I completely disagree. Manning Inc. will guarantee he gets in -- it might not be 1st ballot, but he's getting in.

Okey doke. More opinions framed as facts.

In comment 14166152 SirLoinOfBeef said:

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is in. You have to be kidding me.

When I was a kid I used to find it ridiculous that Namath was in the HoF, but I was ignorant and viewing him from a mid 90s perspective. In his career he was in the top 3 in yards 6 times, leading the league 3 times. Top 5 in TDs 7 times. Top 5 rating 5 times. Top 5 in Completion % 5 times. I could go on. Among his peers his numbers were elite for decent while. He had 5 All Pros and 2 AFL MVPs. Throw in the Super Bowl upset and he was a shoe in. I no longer question his enshrinement.

In comment 14166112 christian said:

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If Manning's accomplishments mean nothing to you emotionally, consider: - He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many - He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record - He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner - He's never been an All Pro - 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand - He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons - He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot.

That�s pretty spot on.

But what Eli will have going for him is the anti-Pats bias in the overall media. I think being the QB on the two teams who beat the Pats and Brady will carry considerable weight.

What QB's can we point to in the HoF as reasonable comparisons to say "he's in - so, Eli should be in too" ?

Namath is pointless to bring up - he played in a completely different era. If you look at QB numbers back then with a 2018 mentality, you aren't going to understand it.

Two Super Bowl MVP's is a major plus in Eli's corner.

Again...

Eli has never led the NFL in TD's, yards, or any other positive category in any year of his career.

He has never been NFL MVP.

He has never been an all pro.

He is likely going to finish his career with a losing record if he continues to start after the bye.

What comparable, contemporary QB is in or will be in the HoF?

In comment 14166098 LS said:

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the defense did it? He beat the 18-0 Patriots.

The Giants D gave up 14 points, to the historic Patriots offense. And 4 years later they gave up a net of 15 points.

The last time a team gave up 14 points or less, but still failed to win the Super Bowl, was in 1973. The entirely different dead ball era.

The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?

And these 8 post-season wins, the most recent one 7 years ago, constitute 95% of Eli Manning's credentials to his Hall of Fame claim. People will easily think that giving Eli the two spontaneously-on-the-spot Super Bowl MVPs are enough rewards already, that he deserve no more accolade, especially the about-the-entire-career type of recognition such as the HoF admission.

Just watch.

In comment 14166176 Banks said:

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In comment 14166152 SirLoinOfBeef said: Quote: is in. You have to be kidding me. When I was a kid I used to find it ridiculous that Namath was in the HoF, but I was ignorant and viewing him from a mid 90s perspective. In his career he was in the top 3 in yards 6 times, leading the league 3 times. Top 5 in TDs 7 times. Top 5 rating 5 times. Top 5 in Completion % 5 times. I could go on. Among his peers his numbers were elite for decent while. He had 5 All Pros and 2 AFL MVPs. Throw in the Super Bowl upset and he was a shoe in. I no longer question his enshrinement.

Well, than Eli is guaranteed to get in.

he will get in because a lot of the traditional types put a lot of emphasis on titles for qbs. You could make a very solid case for or against him.

It really comes down in large part to 2 things: 1) how many voters put a huge emphasis on titles/moments vs. Sustained excellence and 2) how many qbs they put in canton.

On #2, which is not often discussed, you could make the argument that more qbs deserve to get in because it's such an important position. For example maybe only the top 5 safeties of an era would get in, whereas the top 10 qbs deserve to get in. That would work in elis favor.

I think it is funny that I had folks in here telling me that Kenny Stabler's HoF case was borderline but now we have folks that think Eli is a shoe in. They didn't vote Stabler in until he died and he was twice the QB Eli is. Not a first ballot? Maybe not ever.. but I bet he sneaks in after 12 or 15 years.

Is where you will find folks who believe that Eli is as good as, or even better then Ben. IMO, it is not even close. Eli is a notch below Ben and two notches under the other great ones mentioned here. With my eyes I don't believe Eli is a HOF but his Manning name doesn't hurt and,of course, the two Super Bowl MVPs. It would be nice if Eli did get in but I will not be surprised if he doesn't.

In comment 14166165 LAXin said:

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In comment 14166144 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: Cocksure! Look, I have only watched Giants football for 30 years, and you much longer. But I really think you will be greatly disappointed when Eli is still looking to get in when he's closer to 60 yo than 50. But rest assured, IF I am wrong, IF Eli gets in before, say, 2030, I will not be bitter about it. I will not view it as a personal defeat/loss.

👍

In comment 14166199 LAXin said:

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In comment 14166098 LS said: Quote: The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?

Can't be serious???

In comment 14166241 BillKo said:

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In comment 14166199 LAXin said: Quote: In comment 14166098 LS said: Quote: The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree? Can't be serious???

No, YOU sir, cannot possibly serious. During those two playoff runs (we know the regular season was different), which one of the other 31 NFL defenses would you have, and still be confident about the Giants winning either title? Name that team that you believed could have also held the Patriots to 14 points.

The playoff game at Dallas was tied at half time. Then, the Eli-led Giants offense gained a grand total of 57 yards in the 2nd half. And won, in regulation.

You can't be serious.

Had a 50% completion rate, threw 173 TDs, 220 INTs and had a career 65.5 QBR is in.

The ONLY reason Eli doesn't get in is because the stupid Fucking voters are complete and utter assholes - which is entirely likely.

In comment 14166246 LAXin said:

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In comment 14166241 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 14166199 LAXin said: Quote: In comment 14166098 LS said: Quote: The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree? Can't be serious??? No, YOU sir, cannot possibly serious. During those two playoff runs (we know the regular season was different), which one of the other 31 NFL defenses would you have, and still be confident about the Giants winning either title? Name that team that you believed could have also held the Patriots to 14 points. The playoff game at Dallas was tied at half time. Then, the Eli-led Giants offense gained a grand total of 57 yards in the 2nd half. And won, in regulation. You can't be serious.

LOL....hey listen, there's a lot of great points on this thread, but the one I highlighted by you is ridiculous.

How about, just for 2011, I take Pitt, San Fran, or Baltimore? They were ranked #1-3 in total defense.

Could those defenses have played more poorly than NYG during that four game span...of course. Better.....well, of course they could too. We'll never know.

But that's the entire point...you're writing something as fact........

But your

We won 2 SBs with Eli and I'm grateful for that. But putting him in the Hall? Please.

In comment 14166174 arcarsenal said:

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Okey doke. More opinions framed as facts.

I don't disagree on the surface and the accomplishments Manning doesn't have an overwhelming argument.

But I don't believe the NFL, a brand that does a fantastic job leveraging its stars and history, won't maneuver to get Peyton and Eli giving each other introductions. It's too beneficial to the league not to.

In comment 14166377 christian said:

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But I don't believe the NFL, a brand that does a fantastic job leveraging its stars and history, won't maneuver to get Peyton and Eli giving each other introductions. It's too beneficial to the league not to.

Of all the reasons to think Eli will, or will not, get into the HOF, this one's certainly... different.

In comment 14166326 JerseyCityJoe said:

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We won 2 SBs with Eli and I'm grateful for that. But putting him in the Hall? Please.

We? Settle down.

Everyone has their personal view of who "is" or "isn't" a hall of famer. When they think hall of famer, they think Jerry Rice, Reggie White, literally the greatest players of all time. Joe Namath is in the Hall of fucking Fame. Curtis Martin. There are many others who don't have the stats nor the titles that Eli has, but I specifically named those 2 to prove that any self-respecting Giants fan can not look at those 2 Jets players sitting in Canton and not say "Put Eli in the fucking hall of fame." He wasn't as good as Montana, but you don't have to be Joe Montana to go to the hall of fame, so stop thinking that's the case just because you can only name 5 people total in the hall of fame. There are so many players in the hall of fame that have nowhere near the longevity, the stats, the division titles, the super bowl titles, and super bowl MVPs that Eli has.

A lot of people say Tiki won't make it because he didn't play long enough, and they're probably right. It's a shame because his name is on lists of all-time records where he is the only one who will not be going to the HOF and he produced those numbers in a shorter amount of time. But now we're going to keep Eli out because he played TOO long and didn't leave the game before his skills regressed with age and his team fell apart due to horrendous management? Where do you draw the line with his idea that a player has to both "go out on top" AND play a minimum number of years to get in?

And I'll repeat one more time, for all you so-called "Giants fans" out there... Namath and Martin. Go look Google some shit. Peace.

He'll have to wait but they'll vote him down the road in a weak year. The SB MVPs, the cumulative stats, the durability, the name and the market will eventually win out. He's not a no-brainer lock like the other guys though, which is why he was omitted from the graphic.

And when you are the QB of a team and have an overall losing record... It matters. I thought he was a lock in 2011. These past few years have absolutely killed his chances. Sucks. Unfortunately most people outside of Giants fans, think Eli sucks.

In comment 14166179 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14166112 christian said: Quote: If Manning's accomplishments mean nothing to you emotionally, consider: - He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many - He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record - He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner - He's never been an All Pro - 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand - He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons - He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot. That�s pretty spot on. But what Eli will have going for him is the anti-Pats bias in the overall media. I think being the QB on the two teams who beat the Pats and Brady will carry considerable weight.

I agree, christian kinda nailed it.

But one thing that is never mentioned....at least I havent heard it is the era during which Eli is playing. People are comparing Eli's numbers against those of his "peers"...many of which are all Hall of Famers. What other HoF QB had that to compete with? Combine that with the much greater focus on the running game the Giants had as opposed other teams and Eli is fighting a losing battle if it's awards and all pros he needs to be considered. Brady, Peyton, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Warner for a while and on the fringe Rivers. How many Hall of Famers played during a period that featured 6 other, no question Hall of famers during the vast majority of their career?

The HOF committee may eventually vote him in for 2 SB . His career was hurt by lack of support the last seven years or so. For a couple of years he was a difference maker but never over a long period. Too bad management did a poor job supporting him the last third of his career.

If you read my post. Ray Didinger, a hall of fame sportswriter, told me Elis in. That was last November. Gary Myers, who has a vote, says he thinks eli Makes it also. The perception of actual voters IS different from what you think.

In comment 14166385 Mad Mike said:

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In comment 14166377 christian said: Quote: But I don't believe the NFL, a brand that does a fantastic job leveraging its stars and history, won't maneuver to get Peyton and Eli giving each other introductions. It's too beneficial to the league not to. Of all the reasons to think Eli will, or will not, get into the HOF, this one's certainly... different.

The Mannings and their considerable influence on the media and the league through their sponsorships and connections are not going to let the opportunity pass to be the face of this generation of football in history.

And frankly the NFL won't either. They are royalty and are a much better legacy for this time than the cheating Pat's, domestic violence, and CTE.

I don't think Manning sniffs the first ballot, but he will get in. It's too good of a showcase for the NFL and the Mannings always win.

That got in, looking at their numbers with a 2018 eye, and using that as justification for Eli getting in isnt how the HoF process goes.

Eli played in a different offensive era in a crowded time for QBs playing alongside some of the best of all time.

It really depends whom is eligible when Eli is eligible. If Eli were to retire at season's end, he is a likely First Ballot HoF'er. If Eli continues to play and retires at the same time as Ben, Brees, or Brady, then no.

When you look at the makeup of HoF classes, there are the senior members, defensive players, and offensive players. Special teams/specialists are rarely considered. So if you look at the offensive players that have retired in the past 10 years, who else should be considered? Who else has a better resume?

You have TEs, WRs, QBs, RBs that will garner the most consideration. OL just don't get the recognition as they should. Joe Thomas will get in 2023 as First Ballot, and Eli won't affect that consideration as he won't be eligible until 2024 (assuming retirement at season's end). Witten will get in with Thomas.

We can compare Eli to the likes of Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers, and never reach a consensus. But Eli won't be competing with them as a First Ballot. If anything, Eli will have a tougher time if he isn't a First Ballot HoF'er.

In comment 14166547 jtgiants said:

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If you read my post. Ray Didinger, a hall of fame sportswriter, told me Elis in. That was last November. Gary Myers, who has a vote, says he thinks eli Makes it also. The perception of actual voters IS different from what you think.

Is the threshold for enshrinement two votes? No? Ok, so you're back to stating your hopes as facts.

maybe not first or 2nd ballot.... but he will get in.

But I will guarantee one thing. People in 6 years arent going to remember the checkdowns. People arent going to remember the garbage time TDs. People arent going to remember how bad the Giants were to end his career. They will remember the positives...

Yards
TDs
Consecutive starts
2 Super Bowls
2 Super Bowl MVPs

There are the negatives...
INTs
QB Rating

Wins and losses can be argued to the cows come home, but I doubt it will make a difference. You throw in the Man of the Year will also help his cause.

Its been mentioned on this thread, and I think correctly, that the way Giants fans view Eli is vastly different from the rest of the league. We view him as a clutch, top of the game qb, when large portions of the remainder of the fan bases seem to look at him as a mediocre to good qb who won two SBs.

Looking more objectively at his career, there is certainly a case to be made for his induction. As of now, he's in some key top 10 categories, and certainly has the hall of fame moments (i.e., two superbowls). However, outside of 2011, he's never really had an individual Hall of Fame year. He had nice numbers in 2014 and 2015, but his play wasn't enough to elevate a declining team. Moreover, most BBI posters seem to dismiss that the first four years of his career, he was largely considered a bust. The end of his career has certainly been disastrous as well, both in wins and in statistics. Therefore, barring a strong finish, is below average to bad play for 6 years of his career going to condemn him more than his contemporaries?

I'd also point out that outside of 2011, and more importantly in recent years, it is likely voters will consider that he was not able to elevate his teams despite less than stellar circumstances. At the end of his career, the totality of his play may be enough to get him in, but by no means is it a virtual lock, with the last piece of debate being his consideration as a first ballot inductee.

In comment 14166637 dep026 said:

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maybe not first or 2nd ballot.... but he will get in. But I will guarantee one thing. People in 6 years arent going to remember the checkdowns. People arent going to remember the garbage time TDs. People arent going to remember how bad the Giants were to end his career. They will remember the positives... Yards TDs Consecutive starts 2 Super Bowls 2 Super Bowl MVPs There are the negatives... INTs QB Rating Wins and losses can be argued to the cows come home, but I doubt it will make a difference. You throw in the Man of the Year will also help his cause.

If Manning retires end of year, Rivers and Roethlisberger are going to bypass him in yards and Rodgers and Roethlisberger will pass him in TDs.

He's going to be just in the top 10. It will help if he's not on the same ballet as his contemporaries.

is that Ben played for a better-run organization with better defenses and better coordinators during his career and a much better offensive line and scheme the last half of their careers.

Since Ben went into his first season as the starting QB (2005), the Steelers are something like 13-10 in games where Ben doesn't even play. Eli is about to be under .500 for his career by the time this season is over.

From 2007-2012, he played like a HOFer. Since then (with the possible exception of 2015) he hasn't. He has never been a QB who makes everyone around him better (with the possible exception of 2011). He has the SB MVPs and consecutive starts, but he is quiet and has almost appeared meek at times. If he were truly a great QB, we wouldn't need to constantly talk about having to put all of these other great players around him so that he can play like a $20MM quarterback. HE should be the leader and HE should be the one making his team better, like Brady, Rodgers and Brees do and his brother did - and he isn't and basically never has been that type of player.

All of that said...based on his statistics and SB performances alone, he deserves to be in. But in a general sense, no way does he deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as his brother, Brady, Rodgers or Brees in terms of someone you'd want at QB if you were starting a team. That's great that he's a nice guy and was Man of the Year - that doesn't help the team on the field.

The other thing with Eli is he really has no discernible "peak" period of his career. Yes, he was fantastic in 2011 and carried this team. But typically a HoF QB will play at a level like that for more than one season.

Eli truly elevated NYG that year and is THE biggest reason we navigated through that season and won the Super Bowl. But he really didn't do anything like that any other year in his career.

Eli has been in the league for 15 years and there has basically been no point in his career where you could make an honest case for him as even a top 3 QB in the league. Even in 2011 - he wasn't league MVP, he wasn't OPOY, he wasn't even an all-pro.

The one thing I will say is that Eli's 2010 season might be one of the most misleading ones in his career. I thought he was actually really good that year - but he led the league in INT's. There were an inordinate amount of balls thrown right on target that went right off a WR's hands and into a DB's lap. Just some awful luck that year, but I thought he played really well otherwise.

In comment 14166174 arcarsenal said:

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Okey doke. More opinions framed as facts.

Arc still doesn't know how it works. On BBI, all opinions can become facts when stated the right way. For example, if I believe Eli will get into - or should get into - the HoF, all I need to do is change...

"I think Eli will get into the HoF."

to

"Eli will get in, and it isn't even close. If you don't understand that you are an idiot."

See? An opinion magically transformed to fact. Try it out!

In comment 14166823 arcarsenal said:

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The other thing with Eli is he really has no discernible "peak" period of his career. Yes, he was fantastic in 2011 and carried this team. But typically a HoF QB will play at a level like that for more than one season. Eli truly elevated NYG that year and is THE biggest reason we navigated through that season and won the Super Bowl. But he really didn't do anything like that any other year in his career. Eli has been in the league for 15 years and there has basically been no point in his career where you could make an honest case for him as even a top 3 QB in the league. Even in 2011 - he wasn't league MVP, he wasn't OPOY, he wasn't even an all-pro. The one thing I will say is that Eli's 2010 season might be one of the most misleading ones in his career. I thought he was actually really good that year - but he led the league in INT's. There were an inordinate amount of balls thrown right on target that went right off a WR's hands and into a DB's lap. Just some awful luck that year, but I thought he played really well otherwise.

My one problem with viewing Eli on a year by year basis is I believe some of the years which he played he played incredibly well but either the stats or team success wasnt there.

2008 Eli was very, very good. He wasnt asked to do much because of the defense and run game - but he made so many big plays that year.

2014/2015 were great years considering he had OBJ and little of anything else that could play in the NFL.

And I agree with your 2010 assessment.

Try to pretend that Eli was on another team and otherwise had an identical career, and you were trying to assess his career and what you thought about him from an outsider's perspective.

I would wager that no one on BBI would seriously argue that he should be mentioned in the same sentence as the elite NFL quarterbacks mentioned in this thread.

They went 6-10 each of those seasons. I don't care if he threw for 10,000 yards and 100 TDs - it wasn't enough.

It's going to be based on two moments. That argument is not unprecedented - it's what got Namath in.

I've always been of the opinion that if you have to ask whether a guy is a Hall of Famer, he isn't.

In comment 14166857 Go Terps said:

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They went 6-10 each of those seasons. I don't care if he threw for 10,000 yards and 100 TDs - it wasn't enough.

Um.... I really dont know how to respond to that.

So you're saying Eli was better in 2005, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2016 than he was in 2011? Because if you are basing it on regular season records...

I think Eli was more or less the same guy in '11 as he was those other years (excluding '16 - the star of the '16 team was McAdoo and his game management).

We're talking about the Hall of Fame here. If we're going to say '14 and '15 were Hall of Fame years why don't we just put Matt Schaub and Neil Lomax in?

Stats are not the case to make for Eli. His stats aren't as good as those of his top level contemporaries.

The case to make is the two seasons he did things rarely seen in NFL history.

In comment 14166858 Go Terps said:

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I've always been of the opinion that if you have to ask whether a guy is a Hall of Famer, he isn't.

I agree completely with this. The HoF should be for guys that were consistently one of the best players of their era. We all know there are plenty of guys in the HoF that don't meet that criteria. Namath is there because of one iconic moment/season. Sometimes that is enough.

As much as many folks here will hate to hear this, if Eli does get in, it will be for the beating the undefeated Patriots in SB 42, for being a great face of the league during his career, and for being a Manning. He was never one of the top 3 QBs in the game and was never an All-Pro. He is more of an icon of the league, like Namath.

In comment 14166850 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14166823 arcarsenal said: Quote: The other thing with Eli is he really has no discernible "peak" period of his career. Yes, he was fantastic in 2011 and carried this team. But typically a HoF QB will play at a level like that for more than one season. Eli truly elevated NYG that year and is THE biggest reason we navigated through that season and won the Super Bowl. But he really didn't do anything like that any other year in his career. Eli has been in the league for 15 years and there has basically been no point in his career where you could make an honest case for him as even a top 3 QB in the league. Even in 2011 - he wasn't league MVP, he wasn't OPOY, he wasn't even an all-pro. The one thing I will say is that Eli's 2010 season might be one of the most misleading ones in his career. I thought he was actually really good that year - but he led the league in INT's. There were an inordinate amount of balls thrown right on target that went right off a WR's hands and into a DB's lap. Just some awful luck that year, but I thought he played really well otherwise. My one problem with viewing Eli on a year by year basis is I believe some of the years which he played he played incredibly well but either the stats or team success wasnt there. 2008 Eli was very, very good. He wasnt asked to do much because of the defense and run game - but he made so many big plays that year. 2014/2015 were great years considering he had OBJ and little of anything else that could play in the NFL. And I agree with your 2010 assessment.

Voters don't really consider that stuff, though. It's more of a bottom line business. You need the accomplishments and numbers. If you don't have the hardware, you'd better have some damn good numbers - and if you don't really have the numbers, you need a bit more hardware. Even the 2 Super Bowls may not be enough.

I think people need to realize that non-Giants fans view Eli much differently than we do. We've watched every single snap for 15 years. Most of the voters will not have done that and will only know him as the Jekyll & Hyde player he often was in his career where he could look untouchable one minute and absolutely lost the next.

We know that maybe he could have put up better numbers in certain seasons or that a lot of bad circumstances around him hurt his legacy tremendously, but that's not the type of stuff that will be at the forefront when it comes time for people to answer this question with a "yes" or "no."

I love Eli. I hope he gets in. I really do.

But if I was a voter and was being completely objective, I probably wouldn't vote for him.

tough knowing how well it was looking a few years ago for him to make it, but these past few years of play have really took a lot of luster away.

Besides the SB wins, the SB MVP trophies, and his iron man streak, the only other real numbers you can point at are his counting stats. Yes, of course there's something to be said for longevity, but in the next 5-7 years, even those numbers are going to be knocked down a few pegs. I see some people referring to yards:

Eli is currently at #6 overall with 54,059

I believe when it's all said and done, he will be eclipsed by or be given a run for his money:
Ben Roethlisberger- Currently at 53,625

Phil Rivers- Currently at 52,584 and still playing MVP caliber football

Matt Ryan- 44,481..It'll be close, but he turned 33 this year. On pace for a career high this year of 5,300 yards, and has averaged 4,533 a year since 2011. 4/5 more years of even 4,000 a year adds another 20K to that number

Aaron Rodgers- 41,044

Joe Flacco- 38,245. Again, another close one, the only one on here I'd lean towards no. On pace for about 4,500 this year, which would be a career high. Turned 34 in January. Averages about 3,800 per year since 2011. At 4/5 more years he'd be at right at Eli's total now. Will depend how he finishes the twilight of his career.

Matt Stafford- 36,860. Will be 31 all of next year. On pace for 4,200 which would be his lowest total since 2011. From 2011 through 2017 he's averaged 4,500 a year, with his lowest in that stretch being 4,257. 6/7 more years at even 4K production gives him another 25K on top.

This isn't even including a lot of the QBs from 2009-2012, that are all pacing to eclipse these totals or be right in the neighborhood (Andy Dalton (27K+ at 31), Russ Wilson (24K+ at 29) Luck (21K+ at 29). Bottom line is, the all time leader-boards, are going to become saturated with QBs from this era due to how favorably the league has turned for passers.

Not going to go as in depth for passing TD's, but quickly:

Eli currently at 7th all time in passing TD's at 157. Again, guys I believe who will either eclipse him, or be right in his neighborhood when it's all said and done are (Phil Rivers already is above him FYI):
Ben Roethlisberger at 345
Aaron Rodgers at 328
Matt Ryan at 279
Matt Stafford at 230

Taking all this into account, he would be knocked out of the top 10 of all the counting categories as well. Again, with the perception/reality, that with all but the exception of perhaps 1 or 2 seasons, he was never even considered a top 5 QB in a season.

Don't know how much being a Manning, or the Walter Payton Man of the Year will factor in, and they are all good points, but I just don't know.

the problem with the "if you have to ask" test for the HOF is that it discourages thorough analysis or conversation and instead causes people to gravitate towards easy and perhaps less meaningful measurements of a players' success. I think it will also lead to a player's teammate's success or failures having more influence on the player's candidacy than they do now.

Also, the "if you have to ask" test will only make for a quicker vote without actually coming to any better consensus or agreement. Instead, it just anchors to how big the person giving an answer thinks the Hall should be.

Also, if it's just a "if you have to ask" test, then it suggests that no one has to defend their answer. Because if asked why, it then opens them up to debate on the inputs that went into that decision.

There are always borderline cases. "If you have to ask" doesn't change that.

But they only exist because the Hall of Fame has been cheapened by letting in other borderline cases.

I think the Hall of Fame has it backwards. Instead of debating who should be let in, the debate should be about keeping people out. I can make a case for keeping Jim Kelly or Warren Moon out of the Hall of Fame. I can not make a case for keeping Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, or Joe Montana out of the Hall of Fame. Of current QBs, I can not make a case against Tom Brady or Drew Brees. I can make a case against everybody else.

The Hall of Fame is the highest honor a player can receive. Given that, I'd think it should be ultra-exclusive, and that exclusivity should be protected. But that ship sailed long ago. Now instead the argument becomes "If so and so is in, such and such should also be in." Low standard.

Can't make a case against him either.

spoke in this thread is the competition he faced when he won in the playoffs.

He beat some of the all-time greats to win those Championships and he beat Brady TWICE (No one else can say that). He beat Farve and Rogers in Lambeau field, and at the time I believe only Mike Vick had ever beat the Pack in Green Bay in the Playoffs.

That is stuff that will be heavily weighed. He also had the 2 Super Bowl MVPs as well with 4th Quarter Comebacks.

you are arguing what the HOF should be as opposed to what it is. So in that regard, your "if you have to ask" answer will produce a lot more no votes than what matches the actual Hall of Fame standards.

That's fine as everyone has their own standard, but why couldn't someone be even more exclusive than you? Why couldn't someone say that Drew Brees never won MVP and was only an First Team All-Pro once (AP or PFWA), and therefore isn't a HOFer. By comparison, Kurt Warner has two MVPs and two First Team All-Pro selections.

Is Dan Marino a HOFer? How can a QB be a HOFer if he only made it to one Super Bowl and didn't even win?

and I'm not criticizing your approach. It's fair to want a very selective Hall of Fame (I always like the old Bill Simmons approach of a pyramid structure to HOFs that recognize the inner circle types). I just think that there is always a gray area and an overprotective approach to the Hall could be influenced by nostalgia from the gatekeepers and end up failing to tell the story of the NFL by keeping out too many great players over the years.

In comment 14166797 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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is that Ben played for a better-run organization with better defenses and better coordinators during his career and a much better offensive line and scheme the last half of their careers. Since Ben went into his first season as the starting QB (2005), the Steelers are something like 13-10 in games where Ben doesn't even play. Eli is about to be under .500 for his career by the time this season is over.

Uh - most great QBs play for great teams - Bradshaw, Montana, Starr, Stabler, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Young...and on and on and on. So that shouldn�t be constructed as an argument against.

I contend, for but a few (arguably), that these players made their teams even better.

To me, BR has elevated Pittsburgh to even greater heights. His ability to improvise, buy time, hang in the pocket, and deliver in big moments is tremendous. I think he�s actually vastly underrated.

And getting to 3 SB appearances, and two SB wins, in the Brady and Manning eras is very impressive. Hell, those two alone have been to 12 of the past 18 SBs.

He�s not playing most of his career in a dome either like a Brees or Manning. He�s played in a cold weather division that requires big physical talent to succeed...

Ben is great and he has a skill set that has won the Steelers plenty of games over the years.

But the Steelers success is also about a lot more than Ben. In the first half of his career, Dick LeBeau brought a great defense every season. In the second half of his career, he had Bruce Arians and Todd Haley scheming great offenses.

And my point stands thatin the 1.5 seasons worth of games with Ben's back-ups over the course of nearly 15 years, they've had a better winning percentage than Eli had in his entire career. The back-ups! That speaks to the quality of the organization surrounding Ben.

In comment 14166953 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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you are arguing what the HOF should be as opposed to what it is. So in that regard, your "if you have to ask" answer will produce a lot more no votes than what matches the actual Hall of Fame standards. That's fine as everyone has their own standard, but why couldn't someone be even more exclusive than you? Why couldn't someone say that Drew Brees never won MVP and was only an First Team All-Pro once (AP or PFWA), and therefore isn't a HOFer. By comparison, Kurt Warner has two MVPs and two First Team All-Pro selections. Is Dan Marino a HOFer? How can a QB be a HOFer if he only made it to one Super Bowl and didn't even win?

A very consistent standard for HoF voting is: how often was this player viewed among the top among his peers?

Brees or Marino, though with fewer championship rings than Eli, each possesses far more superior Hall of Fame credential than Eli, because each has been viewed as a top 5 NFL QB in 8, 9 years over their careers, maybe more.

Eli, in at most 2 of his 15 years, and not because there was this vast and consistent conspiracy in the NFL and the media to maliciously suppress him.

2 out of 15 ......

I don't disagree with how you view those players, but it doesn't relate to my point.

I was pointing out that concept that the "if you have to ask" sentiment for judging Hall of Famers, or view that the Hall should be as limited as possible won't eliminate debate or borderline cases.

If the Hall gets more and more exclusive, then the "if you have to ask" question carries a different weight and will still lead to uncertainty.

In comment 14167012 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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Ben is great and he has a skill set that has won the Steelers plenty of games over the years. But the Steelers success is also about a lot more than Ben. In the first half of his career, Dick LeBeau brought a great defense every season. In the second half of his career, he had Bruce Arians and Todd Haley scheming great offenses. And my point stands thatin the 1.5 seasons worth of games with Ben's back-ups over the course of nearly 15 years, they've had a better winning percentage than Eli had in his entire career. The back-ups! That speaks to the quality of the organization surrounding Ben.

Agreed. So why can't we give the Steelers for drafting a great talent like BR?

In other words, while the Steelers do have a great infrastructure and history, BR has the talent to make the transition much, much easier.

In comment 14167005 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14166797 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: is that Ben played for a better-run organization with better defenses and better coordinators during his career and a much better offensive line and scheme the last half of their careers. Since Ben went into his first season as the starting QB (2005), the Steelers are something like 13-10 in games where Ben doesn't even play. Eli is about to be under .500 for his career by the time this season is over. Uh - most great QBs play for great teams - Bradshaw, Montana, Starr, Stabler, Aikman, Kelly, Staubach, Young...and on and on and on. So that shouldn�t be constructed as an argument against. I contend, for but a few (arguably), that these players made their teams even better. To me, BR has elevated Pittsburgh to even greater heights. His ability to improvise, buy time, hang in the pocket, and deliver in big moments is tremendous. I think he�s actually vastly underrated. And getting to 3 SB appearances, and two SB wins, in the Brady and Manning eras is very impressive. Hell, those two alone have been to 12 of the past 18 SBs. He�s not playing most of his career in a dome either like a Brees or Manning. He�s played in a cold weather division that requires big physical talent to succeed...

As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.

In comment 14167281 JOrthman said:

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As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career.

On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...

In comment 14167297 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14167281 JOrthman said: Quote: As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career. On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...

He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing.

In comment 14167297 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14167281 JOrthman said: Quote: As was mentioned, he's a great player, but his teams have been stacked. They always manage to be competitive and even when, when he is not on the field or not playing well. They have also had good to great defenses his entire career. For all the crap we give Eli for having weapons, look what Ben has had his career. How often does a QB have the best or a top 3 RB, the best or top 3 WR, great 2 and 3 WR's, solid line and TE. Pitt has been stacked with talent his whole career. On the other hand, it doesn't appear to matter who they put around BR. He produces at a Pro Bowl level. So he's always been the common denominator...

So you�re saying despite being the common denominator of teams that have all world talent, he has underperformed in the playoffs? I mean 2 trophies is nice but hell Eli did that with far less talent in his career.

Right?

In comment 14167353 JOrthman said:

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He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing.

Sure I can. Because you are assuming Eli could do the same thing as BR. You are assuming they have the same skill sets. And that's a bit laughable...

If you watch BR play, especially his ability to prolong plays, it doesn't take a trained eye to realize that Eli could not do anything near what Ben does. His improvisational skills are skills Eli dreams about. BR makes plays on the move laterally - both ways - and he makes plays with defenders draped all over him in the pocket.

It's really lazy to assume BR is merely a beneficiary of great talent. He's a great player at QB. Eli's a good player.

What's next? You're going to tell me Eli could have done what Montana did with the 9ers WCO?

he is also far less durable. No one is saying they have the same skill sets. I think Eli is just as good a QB as Ben is and so what I'm saying is that the major difference in their team's results over their careers is due to the rest of the team/organization/coaching. They were considered equals for the first half of their careers. In the back half, Ben had a much better offensive situation with Arians/Haley, a much better offensive line, similar playmaker weapons, and a reliable TE which allowed him to continue to put up franchise QB type numbers whereas Eli had to deal with Jerry Reese thinking he should draft as many RBs as offensive linemen.

In comment 14167408 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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he is also far less durable. No one is saying they have the same skill sets. I think Eli is just as good a QB as Ben is and so what I'm saying is that the major difference in their team's results over their careers is due to the rest of the team/organization/coaching. They were considered equals for the first half of their careers. In the back half, Ben had a much better offensive situation with Arians/Haley, a much better offensive line, similar playmaker weapons, and a reliable TE which allowed him to continue to put up franchise QB type numbers whereas Eli had to deal with Jerry Reese thinking he should draft as many RBs as offensive linemen.

There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in.

Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards.

Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio.

There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.

In comment 14167386 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14167353 JOrthman said: Quote: He should with that talent. You can't crucify Eli for not producing with the talent we have and then turn around and laud Ben for producing with his talent. By that logic Ben is doing what he should be doing. Sure I can. Because you are assuming Eli could do the same thing as BR. You are assuming they have the same skill sets. And that's a bit laughable... If you watch BR play, especially his ability to prolong plays, it doesn't take a trained eye to realize that Eli could not do anything near what Ben does. His improvisational skills are skills Eli dreams about. BR makes plays on the move laterally - both ways - and he makes plays with defenders draped all over him in the pocket. It's really lazy to assume BR is merely a beneficiary of great talent. He's a great player at QB. Eli's a good player. What's next? You're going to tell me Eli could have done what Montana did with the 9ers WCO?

What does Montana have to do with anything? We are comparing Ben R and Eli, two people drafted in the same draft with similar passing stats. I never said he was merely a beneficiary of the talent around him at all, simply stating your making it sound as if all things are equal and the talent isn't benefiting him at all.

In comment 14167485 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:

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There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in. Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards. Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio. There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team.

I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games.

Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22).

It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm.

In comment 14167545 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14167485 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said: Quote: There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in. Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards. Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio. There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team. I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games. Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22). It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm.

Lol.

So with all the talent in the world surrounded him... he still won as many Super Bowls as Eli. By your standards, he has underperformed.... no?

Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don�t think the factors into anything, then I don�t know what to tell you.

In comment 14167633 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14167545 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 14167485 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said: Quote: There's just no individual stat that bears out that Eli is on equal footing. We're all Giants fans here, but we're pointing at his 2 SB runs, his iron man streak, and all other ancillary things to justify him getting in. Their is major differences in their individual results. Ben has a completion percentage 4% higher, Ben has 2 less TD's currently, in 16 less games played, and will certainly pass his total this season. Ben has turned the ball over 76 times less than Eli has (53 less INTs, 23 less fumbles). Ben's QB rating is over 10 points higher on the career (94 vs 83.8). Ben's yards per attempt and yards per completion are both higher. With Ben still playing at the level he's playing at he will certainly pass Eli in overall yards. It's not either of their fortes, but Ben has 750+ more rushing yards. Looking at each of their Pro Football Ref's page, and without knowing names, I really don't think it's that hard to come to the conclusion that Ben has been more impressive year over year, and is still turning in high quality performances, as evidenced by being on pace to throw for a career high in yards for a season (5,000+, currently at 2,560 through 8 games), with a 32-14 TD-INT ratio. There's simply no way you can look at all the above and chalk it up to differences in organization/coaching/team. I've written similar findings. And you forgot to add that BR has 40 game winning drives to Eli's 35, and in 16 less games. Check out the playoff stats as well. BR has similar advantages, although Eli has a better TD/INT ratio because he's played far fewer games than Ben (12 to 22). It really takes a fan's super-bias to conclude Eli is even in Ben's realm. Lol. So with all the talent in the world surrounded him... he still won as many Super Bowls as Eli. By your standards, he has underperformed.... no? Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don�t think the factors into anything, then I don�t know what to tell you.

We're just pointing out the clear difference in individual statistics. At this point, it's blue colored glasses to think they are on equal footing. Yes, they've won the same number of Super Bowls, but let's not forget that the AFC ran has run thru 2 of the 3 or 4 greatest QB's of all time for the entirety of Ben's career in Brady and Manning. Since 2004, the AFC has been represented by one of those 3 every single season.

More talent than anyone not named Montana? Are we really now going to prop Ben's surrounding pieces up that much?

Going back to 2005, he had one year of Bettis, and then his weapons were Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle El, and Heath Miller, with Willie Parker at RB. Pretty much the same in 2006. In 2007, Santonio came aboard, with the others remaining the same. In 2009, Willie Parker was replaced with Rashard Mendenhall at RB. In 2010, Ward was done, and Mike Wallace came on. In 2012, Holmes was gone, and AB came into play. In 2013, Leveon Bell was added to the fold, with Emmanuel Sanders, while removing Wallace and Mendenhall. The next year Sanders was replaced by Wheaton. And we're left pretty much with where we are at.

Are these the game breaking talents, and "more talent than anyone in history not named Montana."

To summarize:
6 years of Hines Ward
5 years of AB
A collection of other receivers like a few years of Santonio, a few years of Mike Wallace, Antwaan Randle El, Markus Wheaton, 2 yers of Emmanuel, and currently Juju.
1 year of Bettis, multiple years of Rashard Mendenall and Willie Parker, and now 5 years of Leveon
Heath Miller for a long set, and currently Jesse James and Vance McDonald

We're really going to push that collection of talent that far ahead of the offensive weapon Eli has had?
Toomer for a few years
Plaxico for a few years
Shockey for a few years
Tiki
WR trio of Nicks/Cruz/Manningham
Cruz after the others departed for a few seasons
OBJ since 2014, and currently with Shep and Engram
RB collection of Bradshaw/Jacobs/Ward

I just don't think this talent gap is that far glaring.

There were years where our OL was stronger, and certainly years where his was. Ben's skill set certainly can make up for that a bit, where as Eli's magnifies the problem a bit more.

2 years of tiki, shockey, and Burress Smith and manningham
3 years of Cruz and Nicks
For the last 13 years, Eli didn�t have a RB in the stratosphere of Bell. People really over value Jacobs and Bradshaw on this site.
We haven�t had a high quality TE since Shockey.

And for the last 8 years our OL has been AWFUL.

And do you want to go into defenses?

In comment 14167633 dep026 said:

Quote:

Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don�t think the factors into anything, then I don�t know what to tell you.

For the historically challenged, and just for kicks, check out who the following QBs played with:

Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Kurt Warner, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler.

I eagerly await your revised statement.

In comment 14167757 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14167633 dep026 said: Quote: Ben is a HOF QB who has played with more talent than anyone in history probably not named Joe Montana. If you don�t think the factors into anything, then I don�t know what to tell you. For the historically challenged, and just for kicks, check out who the following QBs played with: Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Kurt Warner, Bob Griese, Steve Young, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Ken Stabler. I eagerly await your revised statement.

Todays game is so much more advanced than the majoriy of the QBs you listed in the 60s and 70s. The only modern day QBs you listed were Aikman and Warner (Warner never had the defenses that Ben has to play with - curious why thats never mentioned). You want to argue Aikman, fine Ill give you that.

But to say Ben hasnt played with a wealth of riches since the day he stepped on the field is just being silly at this point, which is coming to no one's surprise.

The fact of the matter is outside Peyton, Ben has never gone into a season with a roster that could not compete against anyone, and that includes Tom Brady.

the offensive talent is certainly debatable. Before Bell, I don't think the backs were spectacular. Willie Parker managed two good years, but no steelers fan will tell you he was any good. More of the product of the line like Derrick Ward popping off a 1000 yd season at nearly 6 a clip. And I thought we had a stronger receiving corps. Ben, unquestionably, did have the far superior defenses. That said the past 6 seasons they have been middle of the pack, last year being the exception (13,18,21,12,5,12).

In comment 14167802 Banks said:

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the offensive talent is certainly debatable. Before Bell, I don't think the backs were spectacular. Willie Parker managed two good years, but no steelers fan will tell you he was any good. More of the product of the line like Derrick Ward popping off a 1000 yd season at nearly 6 a clip. And I thought we had a stronger receiving corps. Ben, unquestionably, did have the far superior defenses. That said the past 6 seasons they have been middle of the pack, last year being the exception (13,18,21,12,5,12).

The offense is not debatable..

Mike wallace averaged over 1000 yards and 8 TDs
Holmes averasged 950 yards per season and 6 TDs
Ward averaged nearly a 1000 yards per year and 6-7 TDs.
Bryant had a really two good years before his troubles.

You have bell and Brown as well. Smith Schuster is probably a top 3 #2 WR in the league.

Willie Parker averaged over 1300 yards over a 3 season span.
Rashad Mendenhall averaged over 1000 yards and 10 TDs per season with the Steelers.

Miller averaged 600 yards per season.

the QB played in? Your argument was over playing with talent. (If it's QBs closer within the last 20 years, I'd add Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, and John Elway. I was just reeling off players who quickly popped into my head.)

Do you want to know who has a real beef with their organization? Aaron Rodgers. He's a generational talent like Marino. Those are the guys who are actually victims of organizations who expect their QBs to make chicken salad out of some chicken sh-t year after year after year...Eli does not have anywhere near that talent to do elevate teams like those players.

As for Eli's so called lack of talent vs BR's consider this...

They both plated with Plax. So that's a wash.
Right now, they both have brilliant WRs - Brown and OBJ.
BR never played with a TE like Shockey.
IMV, Tiki was a better all-around RB than Bettis and should be in the HoF like Bettis.
Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Toomer, Smitty, etc have been very, very productive WRs for Eli. There is no room to complain about the receiving talent TC furnished for Eli.
And he's had a fair stable of very competent RBs - Tiki, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Dayne, etc.

So....Eli has had offensive play making talent around him essentially his ENTIRE career.

Lately, I do agree, the last several years we have seen Jints Central struggle to build the oline.

But I also wonder this - perhaps the problem is equally Eli. It's clearer every year that he needs almost every facet of the offense to be at a high level to maximize Eli's skills. And that puts a tremendous onus on the FO to hit on a lot of draft picks and FAs to create that environment.

In comment 14167818 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14167802 Banks said: Quote: the offensive talent is certainly debatable. Before Bell, I don't think the backs were spectacular. Willie Parker managed two good years, but no steelers fan will tell you he was any good. More of the product of the line like Derrick Ward popping off a 1000 yd season at nearly 6 a clip. And I thought we had a stronger receiving corps. Ben, unquestionably, did have the far superior defenses. That said the past 6 seasons they have been middle of the pack, last year being the exception (13,18,21,12,5,12). The offense is not debatable.. Mike wallace averaged over 1000 yards and 8 TDs Holmes averasged 950 yards per season and 6 TDs Ward averaged nearly a 1000 yards per year and 6-7 TDs. Bryant had a really two good years before his troubles. You have bell and Brown as well. Smith Schuster is probably a top 3 #2 WR in the league. Willie Parker averaged over 1300 yards over a 3 season span. Rashad Mendenhall averaged over 1000 yards and 10 TDs per season with the Steelers. Miller averaged 600 yards per season.

Without any hesitation I would take Bradshaw/Jacobs/Ward over Willie Parker, Mendenhall, and the broken bus. From 07-12, they averaged ~1700 yards and ~13 TDs. Our backs outgained theirs 11658 to 9838 over that time and outrushed them every year besides 2011 as well as scoring 36 more TDs. You can't say before Bell's second year the steelers were superior with a straight face. The eyes and the numbers don't support that.

Overall I'd say Ben has had better and more consistent wideouts. We had a couple years where injuries hit us and were left fielding guys like hixon, hagan, moss, etc.. here's the yearly top 3 for each team. We had a couple years with better players and better production, at least until Brown became the superstar he is in 2013.
You have a higher opinion of Wallace than I. I thought he benefited way more from Ben than Ben did from him. His failure away from Pitt was not a surprise. Neither was Holmes's.

2005 ward/randle el/wilson vs toomer/burress/carter
2006 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/carter
2007 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/moss
2008 ward/washington/holmes vs toomer/burress/hixon/smith
2009 ward/wallace/holmes vs hicks/manningham/smith
2010 ward/wallace/sanders vs hicks/manningham/smith
2011 ward/wallace/brown vs hicks/manningham/cruz
2012 brown/wallace/sanders vs hicks/hixon/cruz
2013 brown/cotchery/sanders vs hicks/randle/cruz
2014 brown/wheaton/bryant vs Beckham/randle/cruz
2015 brown/wheaton/bryant vs beckham/randle/harris
2016 brown/rogers/coates vsbeckham/shepard/cruz
2017 brown/schister smith/bryant vs beckham/shepard/lewis

I personally think Heath Miller was one of the most overrated players of the past decade+. Every game they talked him up. He blocked ok, caught ok, but he was not in the league with the Shockey's or Bennett's of the world imo. Here's the breakdown of the TE stats over the years.

NYG YDS TD
2005 1083 7
2006 704 7
2007 765 5
2008 456 8
2009 663 5
2010 719 7
2011 833 5
2012 661 6
2013 639 4
2014 861 11
2015 828 5
2016 609 3
2017 1049 8
TOTAL 9870 81

PIT
2005 522 6
2006 466 6
2007 609 11
2008 674 3
2009 823 7
2010 638 3
2011 660 3
2012 876 10
2013 784 2
2014 808 5
2015 601 3
2016 840 6
2017 592 5
TOTAL 8893 70

In comment 14167945 bw in dc said:

Quote:

the QB played in? Your argument was over playing with talent. (If it's QBs closer within the last 20 years, I'd add Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, and John Elway. I was just reeling off players who quickly popped into my head.) Do you want to know who has a real beef with their organization? Aaron Rodgers. He's a generational talent like Marino. Those are the guys who are actually victims of organizations who expect their QBs to make chicken salad out of some chicken sh-t year after year after year...Eli does not have anywhere near that talent to do elevate teams like those players. As for Eli's so called lack of talent vs BR's consider this... They both plated with Plax. So that's a wash. Right now, they both have brilliant WRs - Brown and OBJ. BR never played with a TE like Shockey. IMV, Tiki was a better all-around RB than Bettis and should be in the HoF like Bettis. Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Toomer, Smitty, etc have been very, very productive WRs for Eli. There is no room to complain about the receiving talent TC furnished for Eli. And he's had a fair stable of very competent RBs - Tiki, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Dayne, etc. So....Eli has had offensive play making talent around him essentially his ENTIRE career. Lately, I do agree, the last several years we have seen Jints Central struggle to build the oline. But I also wonder this - perhaps the problem is equally Eli. It's clearer every year that he needs almost every facet of the offense to be at a high level to maximize Eli's skills. And that puts a tremendous onus on the FO to hit on a lot of draft picks and FAs to create that environment.

The problem is the "productive players" Shockey and Barber were only there for the first two years. Cruz had only 2 good years. Nicks only had 2 good years. Smith had 1 great year.

The Nicks, Cruz, Manningham trio could have been historically epic but injuries prevented that from happening. But from 2010 to 2012 was the only time where I would have taken our skilled players over the Steelers but unfortunately our key guys got hurt.

And ron dayne was never ever productive.

the offensive line isn't talked about. Or the quality of defense.

How many seasons of Eli behind this offensive line with zero ability to pass protect or run block will it take for some to realize the impact that the 5 (6 if you include the TE) have on the ability for an offense to function?

Comparing Willie Parker to Bradshaw? Who cares. We have Saquan Barkley and 45% of his runs go for 1 yard or less.

No run blocking for almost a decade, no pass protection for almost a decade and a carousel at TE.

Not to mention some of the worst defenses (scoring-wise) in the history of the sport.

In comment 14165927 Go Terps said:

Quote:

2011 was an eternity ago. These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.

And, he was not often a great QB during regular seasons. That's why, despite the two SB wins (in a watered down era), he isn't held in as high regard as with NYG fans.

with the Steelers their OL in the late 2000's? Back when Eli had one of the best OL's in the game? Yes, some of it is a function of Ben holding the ball longer, and Eli getting it out quicker, but in 16 less games played Ben's been sacked 98 more times.

Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points?

There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB.

Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.

In comment 14168049 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:

Quote:

that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.

Whats the narrative between the two if they switched teams the last 6 years?

My answer? Ben would have retired already.

In comment 14168049 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:

Quote:

with the Steelers their OL in the late 2000's? Back when Eli had one of the best OL's in the game? Yes, some of it is a function of Ben holding the ball longer, and Eli getting it out quicker, but in 16 less games played Ben's been sacked 98 more times. Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points? There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB. Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.

Nice write-up.

Here's the other thing - when Eli has had a competent line, how many truly great years has he had? Maybe one? The guy has been a double-digit INT machine his entire career - averaging roughly 16 INTs/year.

If not for the SBs - and you certainly can't throw those 8 weeks out - Eli has not had a regular season HoF career. Not even close. Based on his regular season output, he's essentially Andy Dalton.

Here's a quick reminder what these stats mean:
RB Yards: Yards per carry by that team's running backs, according to standard NFL numbers.
Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.
Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage. Since being stuffed is bad, teams are ranked from stuffed least often (#1) to most often (#32).
Second Level Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn between 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
Open Field Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.

I highlighted in red where the Giants ranked below the Steelers. One thing I keep seeing posted is how the steelers have always had this great line and giants had shit. Untrue. We had the best line I ever saw on the giants dating back to the 80s. Meanwhile the steelers weren't always that great. In 04 they had some injuries and started 2 journeyman on the right side and Ben got pounded until 2014 as pointed out above.


Link - ( New Window )

Is Andy freaking Dalton.

JFC.

but pass pro ratings will always be skewed with Eli and Ben particularly because it is based solely on adjusted sack yards. Eli gets rid of the ball as fast as he can to avoid the big hits and sacks and so it inflates his pass protection ranking (while hurting his passing efficiencies). On the other hand, Roethlisberger tries to keep plays alive and trades off the high number of sacks to do so. This makes his FO pass pro seem worse because of the extra sacks he's willing to take and it improves his passing efficiency since he will have fewer throw-aways.

In comment 14168161 dep026 said:

Quote:

Is Andy freaking Dalton. JFC.

Again, he said take away the SB runs, and Eli's regular season numbers are very similar to Andy Dalton. This is why it's all such a crazy debate with Eli. Like I mentioned earlier, the laurels we have to rest on right now are the 2 SB runs, an iron man streak, and counting statistics, which by the time he retires, will be pushed down a few notches on all leaderboards. That's why his regular season numbers are definitely something you have to look at as well, and how has he performed compared to his peers at the time. It's why a "Will Eli get in to the HoF" debate, is a hot topic.

Just entertain this for a minute. Without looking anything up, tell me which QB is which. These QB's all have 7+ year sample sizes, and these are career regular season averages to date. All are currently active.

#1:
64.2% Completion
3,687 Yards
28 TD's-9 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC

#2:
62.4% Completion
3,779 Yards
25 TD's-14 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC

#3:
64.2% Completion
4,125 Yards
27 TD's-14 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC

#4:
60.2% Completion
3,861 Yards
25 TD's-17 INT's
7.0 YPA / 11.7 YPC

#5:
62.3% Completion
4,434 Yards
28 TD's-15 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC

#6:
65.2% Completion
4,287 Yards
27 TD's-12 INT's
7.5 YPA / 11.6 YPC

#7:
64.4% Completion
4,124 Yards
28 TD's-13 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.1 YPC

I'll come back in a few and post who's who, but I'm curious to see what you think, and how you would rank this list of QB's looking solely at these numbers.

I have not will I ever judge a QB based on stats... so while Inappreciate the effort you�re bringing... I am not going to try and guess.

In comment 14168216 dep026 said:

Quote:

I have not will I ever judge a QB based on stats... so while Inappreciate the effort you�re bringing... I am not going to try and guess.

That's fair enough. But with how differently Eli is viewed around the league, it is certainly something that is fair to bring into a debate on Eli's Hall chances. You want to say stats are not something you judge a QB on (I'm going to assume because there are a lot of other factors at play to get to those numbers), but then that reasoning would be the same for his Super Bowl's. There were a lot of other factors than just Eli.

Right now, the only consistent checks Eli gets for the Hall are SB/MVP x2, and Iron Man. There is no stat that when compared to his peers that really separates him from the pack. We can look at the counting stats (yards-TD's), but like I said before, he's going to be pushed down a lot of these leader-boards in the next few years, and in most cases outside of the top 10-12. Will 12+ years of QB play where most of it was spent at average/above average, with only a few seasons really excellent, be enough to dissuade the voters from allowing him in, maybe? It really is a NY sports tragedy how the organization went about surrounding/protecting the franchise QB after 2011. I sure hope your outlook is what comes to light, would be one hell of a day for all us fans.

The QB's from above anyway:
1- Russ Wilson
2- Andy Dalton
3- Ben Roethlisberger
4- Eli Manning
5- Matt Stafford
6- Matt Ryan
7- Phil Rivers