if this was discussed and I missed it, apologies...
but I was struck watching SNF last night as they were making a big deal about the match-up of 2 elite QB's like Brady & Rodgers... they discussed and showed graphics about great/potential HOF QB match-ups.
they obviously showed Brady & Rodgers, and extended it to Peyton and Brees... and then extended to Big Ben... but no Eli.
I am on record that I think Eli is worthy of the HOF and likely to make it, but it reminded me that the outside world really thinks much less of our QB than we do. and that these past few years are really hurting his legacy.
The Giants' terrible roster management over the last 5+ years is why he's not going to get in.
Pretty shitty, but it's reality. He's no longer a guy anyone outside of NY looks at as a HoF'er.
2-4 vs Rodgers
1-7 vs Brees
1-3 vs Ben
In playoffs he's
2-0 vs Brady
2-1 vs Rodgers
Now, to the objective viewer, his career is about two games.
The Giants clusterf*ck of a roster costruction has did him no favors.
You can if you'd like - but he's probably not going to get in.
These last few years did enormous damage and he's going to go out of this league with a losing record.
Perception of Eli Manning's career outside of NY is not favorable. He's looked at as more of a guy who got hot a few times than a guy who was a consistent winner.
The org failed him. It's not his fault, but it's reality.
- He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many
- He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record
- He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner
- He's never been an All Pro
- 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand
- He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons
- He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league
Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot.
He also has limited playoff appearances, and outside of the 2 super bowl runs, has not won a single other playoff game.
What?? Are you even nuts?? Ask Aaron Rogers and Tony Romo about that.
Hes a shoe in.
I actually think Rivers is better than Ben too, but doesn't have a ring. Eli has two rings, therefore, he belongs in the same conversation as Ben.
I fully expect after the 5 year waiting period, there will be a full PR blitz. Fans can bitch all they want, but Eli is getting in. It depends on who is eligible when he is whether he will be first ballot or not.
These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.
A HoF candidate in today's NFL also can't have a career record of 2 meager games above .500 in his 15 years, and can't be considered as top 5 among his peers in meager 2 years out of those 15.
How people continue to be so cocksure about Eli being a Hall of Famer -- "just may not be on first ballot" -- is really mindboggling to me.
As far as the last couple years hurting his chances. I'm not so sure. His post-2011 numbers are actually much better than his pre-2011 numbers in pretty much every statistic, but the winning percentage is obviously down. Eli had an amazing 2011, but before that he was near the top of the league in all the negative stats, and middle of the pack or below in the positive ones (*y/a, rating, comp %, y/g). Though he always threw a good amount of TDs.
I love him as much as any Giant fan, but he was/is a flawed qb and that's the way the media views him. I don't think they go out of their way to snub him or insult his legacy. Had he continued putting up 2011 numbers he'd be a lock for the HoF, but if he continued his play prior I think we'd still be having the conversation about him being on the fence. The biggest thing he has going for him are the two victories over the Pats dynasty and unfortunately I think a little bit of the shine wore off when the Eagles won last year. It would have been a piece of trivia asked all the time, "Who was the only team to beat the Belichick Patriots". Now it's not unique.
Very few voters are going to know all the circumstances with Eli even though his presenters will paint the picture as best possible. I believe bottom line is many will feel a first ballot or shortly thereafter HOF warrants a cleaner resume without blaming so many other factors.
The only way this changes imo is
A. Eli comes back for his last year and somehow the Giants put it all together and he makes a deep run.....very unlikely.
B. Eli goes to another team and takes them to Super Bowl or maybe even a Championship game. Then everyone will see it was the Giants who could not provide adequate support.
He'll eclipse Manning in passing yards this year but the big difference is he's 140-65-1 as a starter while Eli is 112-110.
He has nearly the same career passing numbers and TDs (Big Ben 345, Eli 347) as Eli despite playing an entire season's worth fewer games than Eli (16).
And oh yeah, Eli has thrown FIFTY-THREE more interceptions than Roethlisberger and 23 more fumbles. Even giving Roethlisberger another 16 INTs, Eli would still have thrown 37 more INTs than Big Ben.
When looking at their careers, they both have won two Super Bowls and that's where the similarities end. Eli has been more durable and I'd never take away or diminish his amazing iron man streak, but Big Ben has been by far the superior player throughout his career and will be in the Hall of Fame while Eli's chances are somewhat suspect.
Did you say 53 more interceptions and 23 more fumbles??
How do you know what the perception amongst the voters is?
Too much certainty here for a guy who is going to be a very unique case. He has the hardware that matters, but outside of one season, he's never really been on par with the elite QB's in the league. He's never been an all pro.
I don't really care about pro bowls.. but just 4 in 15 years.
Zero league MVP's. 234 career interceptions.
He doesn't have as strong a case as you think and Archie isn't going to have any impact on this.
I hope he gets in. But the way his career tracked after the 2011-12 season, it has had a very negative impact on his case whether you want to admit that or not.
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2011 was an eternity ago.
These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.
A HoF candidate in today's NFL also can't have a career record of 2 meager games above .500 in his 15 years, and can't be considered as top 5 among his peers in meager 2 years out of those 15.
How people continue to be so cocksure about Eli being a Hall of Famer -- "just may not be on first ballot" -- is really mindboggling to me.
Cocksure!
The only thing he's ever led the NFL in is interceptions.
3 separate times.
And of course, feeling so good about Eli's Hall of Fame chance, even now, with the only uncertainty being "may not be on FIRST BALLOT".
Of the QBs who have had at least 8 years of overlaps with Eli, at least four of them are head and shoulder above him, the "don't even mention them in the same sentence" kind of separation, and two others are viewed as no worse by most of the country outside of NYC. Which first ballot HOFer has been so un-revered?
You have to be kidding me.
I actually think Rivers is better than Ben too, but doesn't have a ring. Eli has two rings, therefore, he belongs in the same conversation as Ben.
Really? What material stats are identical?
For example - check out: completion %, TD/INT ratio, ypa, game winning drives, QBR, etc.
Look forward to your reply.
Cocksure!
Look, I have only watched Giants football for 30 years, and you much longer. But I really think you will be greatly disappointed when Eli is still looking to get in when he's closer to 60 yo than 50.
But rest assured, IF I am wrong, IF Eli gets in before, say, 2030, I will not be bitter about it. I will not view it as a personal defeat/loss.
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I think you miss the point. Your right on perception league wide but here's what you miss. The perception of the voters is favorable. That's what counts. Well agree to disagree but he will make it. Also don't discount Archie and the manning family influence. He will make it
How do you know what the perception amongst the voters is?
Too much certainty here for a guy who is going to be a very unique case. He has the hardware that matters, but outside of one season, he's never really been on par with the elite QB's in the league. He's never been an all pro.
I don't really care about pro bowls.. but just 4 in 15 years.
Zero league MVP's. 234 career interceptions.
He doesn't have as strong a case as you think and Archie isn't going to have any impact on this.
I hope he gets in. But the way his career tracked after the 2011-12 season, it has had a very negative impact on his case whether you want to admit that or not.
I completely disagree. Manning Inc. will guarantee he gets in -- it might not be 1st ballot, but he's getting in.
You have to be kidding me.
When I was a kid I used to find it ridiculous that Namath was in the HoF, but I was ignorant and viewing him from a mid 90s perspective. In his career he was in the top 3 in yards 6 times, leading the league 3 times. Top 5 in TDs 7 times. Top 5 rating 5 times. Top 5 in Completion % 5 times. I could go on. Among his peers his numbers were elite for decent while. He had 5 All Pros and 2 AFL MVPs. Throw in the Super Bowl upset and he was a shoe in. I no longer question his enshrinement.
- He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many
- He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record
- He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner
- He's never been an All Pro
- 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand
- He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons
- He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league
Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot.
Thats pretty spot on.
But what Eli will have going for him is the anti-Pats bias in the overall media. I think being the QB on the two teams who beat the Pats and Brady will carry considerable weight.
Namath is pointless to bring up - he played in a completely different era. If you look at QB numbers back then with a 2018 mentality, you aren't going to understand it.
Two Super Bowl MVP's is a major plus in Eli's corner.
Again...
Eli has never led the NFL in TD's, yards, or any other positive category in any year of his career.
He has never been NFL MVP.
He has never been an all pro.
He is likely going to finish his career with a losing record if he continues to start after the bye.
What comparable, contemporary QB is in or will be in the HoF?
The Giants D gave up 14 points, to the historic Patriots offense. And 4 years later they gave up a net of 15 points.
The last time a team gave up 14 points or less, but still failed to win the Super Bowl, was in 1973. The entirely different dead ball era.
The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?
And these 8 post-season wins, the most recent one 7 years ago, constitute 95% of Eli Manning's credentials to his Hall of Fame claim. People will easily think that giving Eli the two spontaneously-on-the-spot Super Bowl MVPs are enough rewards already, that he deserve no more accolade, especially the about-the-entire-career type of recognition such as the HoF admission.
Just watch.
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is in.
You have to be kidding me.
When I was a kid I used to find it ridiculous that Namath was in the HoF, but I was ignorant and viewing him from a mid 90s perspective. In his career he was in the top 3 in yards 6 times, leading the league 3 times. Top 5 in TDs 7 times. Top 5 rating 5 times. Top 5 in Completion % 5 times. I could go on. Among his peers his numbers were elite for decent while. He had 5 All Pros and 2 AFL MVPs. Throw in the Super Bowl upset and he was a shoe in. I no longer question his enshrinement.
Well, than Eli is guaranteed to get in.
It really comes down in large part to 2 things: 1) how many voters put a huge emphasis on titles/moments vs. Sustained excellence and 2) how many qbs they put in canton.
On #2, which is not often discussed, you could make the argument that more qbs deserve to get in because it's such an important position. For example maybe only the top 5 safeties of an era would get in, whereas the top 10 qbs deserve to get in. That would work in elis favor.
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Cocksure!
Look, I have only watched Giants football for 30 years, and you much longer. But I really think you will be greatly disappointed when Eli is still looking to get in when he's closer to 60 yo than 50.
But rest assured, IF I am wrong, IF Eli gets in before, say, 2030, I will not be bitter about it. I will not view it as a personal defeat/loss.
👍
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The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?
Can't be serious???
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In comment 14166098 LS said:
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The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?
Can't be serious???
No, YOU sir, cannot possibly serious. During those two playoff runs (we know the regular season was different), which one of the other 31 NFL defenses would you have, and still be confident about the Giants winning either title? Name that team that you believed could have also held the Patriots to 14 points.
The playoff game at Dallas was tied at half time. Then, the Eli-led Giants offense gained a grand total of 57 yards in the 2nd half. And won, in regulation.
You can't be serious.
The ONLY reason Eli doesn't get in is because the stupid Fucking voters are complete and utter assholes - which is entirely likely.
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In comment 14166199 LAXin said:
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In comment 14166098 LS said:
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The Giants as a team won the Super Bowl in 2007 and 2011. And the team would not have won either title, if their defense in the playoffs were substituted with any of the other 31 NFL defenses that year. Do you disagree?
Can't be serious???
No, YOU sir, cannot possibly serious. During those two playoff runs (we know the regular season was different), which one of the other 31 NFL defenses would you have, and still be confident about the Giants winning either title? Name that team that you believed could have also held the Patriots to 14 points.
The playoff game at Dallas was tied at half time. Then, the Eli-led Giants offense gained a grand total of 57 yards in the 2nd half. And won, in regulation.
You can't be serious.
LOL....hey listen, there's a lot of great points on this thread, but the one I highlighted by you is ridiculous.
How about, just for 2011, I take Pitt, San Fran, or Baltimore? They were ranked #1-3 in total defense.
Could those defenses have played more poorly than NYG during that four game span...of course. Better.....well, of course they could too. We'll never know.
But that's the entire point...you're writing something as fact........
But your
I don't disagree on the surface and the accomplishments Manning doesn't have an overwhelming argument.
But I don't believe the NFL, a brand that does a fantastic job leveraging its stars and history, won't maneuver to get Peyton and Eli giving each other introductions. It's too beneficial to the league not to.
Of all the reasons to think Eli will, or will not, get into the HOF, this one's certainly... different.
We? Settle down.
A lot of people say Tiki won't make it because he didn't play long enough, and they're probably right. It's a shame because his name is on lists of all-time records where he is the only one who will not be going to the HOF and he produced those numbers in a shorter amount of time. But now we're going to keep Eli out because he played TOO long and didn't leave the game before his skills regressed with age and his team fell apart due to horrendous management? Where do you draw the line with his idea that a player has to both "go out on top" AND play a minimum number of years to get in?
And I'll repeat one more time, for all you so-called "Giants fans" out there... Namath and Martin. Go look Google some shit. Peace.
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If Manning's accomplishments mean nothing to you emotionally, consider:
- He came into the league and leveraged his family's standing and connections to choose where he played, and that's annoying to many
- He's likely retiring with a close to or sub .500 record
- He's only once been in contention to be MVP, and really even that year wasn't honestly that close to the winner
- He's never been an All Pro
- 5 years after he retires a number of the statistical top 10s he's accomplished may not stand
- He's won a playoff game in 2 of 15 seasons
- He'll likely end his career on bottom 1-2 teams in the league
Best guess is he's a notch below the greatest, and will get on the 2nd or 3rd shot.
Thats pretty spot on.
But what Eli will have going for him is the anti-Pats bias in the overall media. I think being the QB on the two teams who beat the Pats and Brady will carry considerable weight.
I agree, christian kinda nailed it.
But one thing that is never mentioned....at least I havent heard it is the era during which Eli is playing. People are comparing Eli's numbers against those of his "peers"...many of which are all Hall of Famers. What other HoF QB had that to compete with? Combine that with the much greater focus on the running game the Giants had as opposed other teams and Eli is fighting a losing battle if it's awards and all pros he needs to be considered. Brady, Peyton, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Warner for a while and on the fringe Rivers. How many Hall of Famers played during a period that featured 6 other, no question Hall of famers during the vast majority of their career?