if this was discussed and I missed it, apologies...
but I was struck watching SNF last night as they were making a big deal about the match-up of 2 elite QB's like Brady & Rodgers... they discussed and showed graphics about great/potential HOF QB match-ups.
they obviously showed Brady & Rodgers, and extended it to Peyton and Brees... and then extended to Big Ben... but no Eli.
I am on record that I think Eli is worthy of the HOF and likely to make it, but it reminded me that the outside world really thinks much less of our QB than we do. and that these past few years are really hurting his legacy.
Do you want to know who has a real beef with their organization? Aaron Rodgers. He's a generational talent like Marino. Those are the guys who are actually victims of organizations who expect their QBs to make chicken salad out of some chicken sh-t year after year after year...Eli does not have anywhere near that talent to do elevate teams like those players.
As for Eli's so called lack of talent vs BR's consider this...
They both plated with Plax. So that's a wash.
Right now, they both have brilliant WRs - Brown and OBJ.
BR never played with a TE like Shockey.
IMV, Tiki was a better all-around RB than Bettis and should be in the HoF like Bettis.
Nicks, Cruz, Plax, Toomer, Smitty, etc have been very, very productive WRs for Eli. There is no room to complain about the receiving talent TC furnished for Eli.
And he's had a fair stable of very competent RBs - Tiki, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Dayne, etc.
So....Eli has had offensive play making talent around him essentially his ENTIRE career.
Lately, I do agree, the last several years we have seen Jints Central struggle to build the oline.
But I also wonder this - perhaps the problem is equally Eli. It's clearer every year that he needs almost every facet of the offense to be at a high level to maximize Eli's skills. And that puts a tremendous onus on the FO to hit on a lot of draft picks and FAs to create that environment.
The problem is the "productive players" Shockey and Barber were only there for the first two years. Cruz had only 2 good years. Nicks only had 2 good years. Smith had 1 great year.
The Nicks, Cruz, Manningham trio could have been historically epic but injuries prevented that from happening. But from 2010 to 2012 was the only time where I would have taken our skilled players over the Steelers but unfortunately our key guys got hurt.
And ron dayne was never ever productive.
How many seasons of Eli behind this offensive line with zero ability to pass protect or run block will it take for some to realize the impact that the 5 (6 if you include the TE) have on the ability for an offense to function?
Comparing Willie Parker to Bradshaw? Who cares. We have Saquan Barkley and 45% of his runs go for 1 yard or less.
No run blocking for almost a decade, no pass protection for almost a decade and a carousel at TE.
Not to mention some of the worst defenses (scoring-wise) in the history of the sport.
These past six years have done enormous damage to Eli's legacy.
And, he was not often a great QB during regular seasons. That's why, despite the two SB wins (in a watered down era), he isn't held in as high regard as with NYG fans.
Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points?
There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB.
Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.
Whats the narrative between the two if they switched teams the last 6 years?
My answer? Ben would have retired already.
Look at the 2006-2009 stretch for Ben. Sacked 46-47-46-50 times. Another 40 sack year in 2011, a 43 sack year in 2013. Giants are on pace to allow the most sacks to Eli this year (currently at 31 now), but the most times in a season he's been sacked prior to this was 39 in 2013. Even in that 2007 season when Ben was sacked 47 times he was still able to go for 3,100 yards and 32 TDs to 11 picks. Or in 2009 when he was sacked 50 times, able to go for 4,300 yards and 26 TD's to 12 picks. Meanwhile in the last 2 years, we are looking at Cleveland Browns level (and now worse), ineptitude from our offense. How many games was it without scoring 30, in the highest scoring years in NFL history? Not one time was our O able to luck into 30 points?
There's no doubt the line play for the Giants has been awful for the last years, but as I mentioned before, Eli's complete lack of mobility amplifies this problem greatly, while Ben's skill-set can offset some problems. Let's not all of a sudden pretend that Ben has had the most incredible OL for the 15 years he's been a QB.
Yes, Pitt's defense has been better on the whole for the 15 years, but that factor certainly doesn't offset the fact that every individual stat between the 2 is in Ben's favor, and that the Steeler's have simply been competitive every single season that Ben has been QB.
Nice write-up.
Here's the other thing - when Eli has had a competent line, how many truly great years has he had? Maybe one? The guy has been a double-digit INT machine his entire career - averaging roughly 16 INTs/year.
If not for the SBs - and you certainly can't throw those 8 weeks out - Eli has not had a regular season HoF career. Not even close. Based on his regular season output, he's essentially Andy Dalton.
RB Yards: Yards per carry by that team's running backs, according to standard NFL numbers.
Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.
Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage. Since being stuffed is bad, teams are ranked from stuffed least often (#1) to most often (#32).
Second Level Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn between 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
Open Field Yards: Yards which this team's running backs earn more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
I highlighted in red where the Giants ranked below the Steelers. One thing I keep seeing posted is how the steelers have always had this great line and giants had shit. Untrue. We had the best line I ever saw on the giants dating back to the 80s. Meanwhile the steelers weren't always that great. In 04 they had some injuries and started 2 journeyman on the right side and Ben got pounded until 2014 as pointed out above.
Link - ( New Window )
JFC.
JFC.
Again, he said take away the SB runs, and Eli's regular season numbers are very similar to Andy Dalton. This is why it's all such a crazy debate with Eli. Like I mentioned earlier, the laurels we have to rest on right now are the 2 SB runs, an iron man streak, and counting statistics, which by the time he retires, will be pushed down a few notches on all leaderboards. That's why his regular season numbers are definitely something you have to look at as well, and how has he performed compared to his peers at the time. It's why a "Will Eli get in to the HoF" debate, is a hot topic.
Just entertain this for a minute. Without looking anything up, tell me which QB is which. These QB's all have 7+ year sample sizes, and these are career regular season averages to date. All are currently active.
#1:
64.2% Completion
3,687 Yards
28 TD's-9 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC
#2:
62.4% Completion
3,779 Yards
25 TD's-14 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC
#3:
64.2% Completion
4,125 Yards
27 TD's-14 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.2 YPC
#4:
60.2% Completion
3,861 Yards
25 TD's-17 INT's
7.0 YPA / 11.7 YPC
#5:
62.3% Completion
4,434 Yards
28 TD's-15 INT's
7.2 YPA / 11.5 YPC
#6:
65.2% Completion
4,287 Yards
27 TD's-12 INT's
7.5 YPA / 11.6 YPC
#7:
64.4% Completion
4,124 Yards
28 TD's-13 INT's
7.8 YPA / 12.1 YPC
I'll come back in a few and post who's who, but I'm curious to see what you think, and how you would rank this list of QB's looking solely at these numbers.
That's fair enough. But with how differently Eli is viewed around the league, it is certainly something that is fair to bring into a debate on Eli's Hall chances. You want to say stats are not something you judge a QB on (I'm going to assume because there are a lot of other factors at play to get to those numbers), but then that reasoning would be the same for his Super Bowl's. There were a lot of other factors than just Eli.
Right now, the only consistent checks Eli gets for the Hall are SB/MVP x2, and Iron Man. There is no stat that when compared to his peers that really separates him from the pack. We can look at the counting stats (yards-TD's), but like I said before, he's going to be pushed down a lot of these leader-boards in the next few years, and in most cases outside of the top 10-12. Will 12+ years of QB play where most of it was spent at average/above average, with only a few seasons really excellent, be enough to dissuade the voters from allowing him in, maybe? It really is a NY sports tragedy how the organization went about surrounding/protecting the franchise QB after 2011. I sure hope your outlook is what comes to light, would be one hell of a day for all us fans.
The QB's from above anyway:
1- Russ Wilson
2- Andy Dalton
3- Ben Roethlisberger
4- Eli Manning
5- Matt Stafford
6- Matt Ryan
7- Phil Rivers