The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Again... worried about sabotaging the career of a man who has made tens of millions in the process. Meanwhile, the Giants organization essentially STOLE from its season ticket holders with the product they put on the field. That is why they owe an apology (and a partial refund) to.
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Yeah Sam Madison and Mathias kiwunuka were more instrumental than elinfor our two Super Bowls.
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Again... worried about sabotaging the career of a man who has made tens of millions in the process. Meanwhile, the Giants organization essentially STOLE from its season ticket holders with the product they put on the field. That is why they owe an apology (and a partial refund) to.
You do realize that by sabotaging Eli's career they were in turn actually causing the product on the field you're bitching about?
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Do you even watch football? How do you make this case for 2011, an all time great quarterbacking SEASON by Eli? Or are you just a troll I'm unfamiliar with?
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
You're one of the worst posters on this board. Congrats!
is just the wrong line of thinking: they failed themselves and their fans in putting a good team together. The extra special concern for any single player is wrong headed. They did not ‘sabotage’ anything that implies deliberately being bad and that is just not true.
is just the wrong line of thinking: they failed themselves and their fans in putting a good team together. The extra special concern for any single player is wrong headed. They did not ‘sabotage’ anything that implies deliberately being bad and that is just not true.
Symantics. The idea of sabotage is the mere fact that Reese failed to invest in the offensive line for years. Then when he finally did he reached for guys like Pugh, Richburg and Flowers. Understanding that the offensive line is the engine of a football team and when you can run and psd protect your can control the game. Reese actually had a draft where he didn't draft an offensive or defensive linemen!!! WTF is that? Then he passed in Ramchyk to get Engram, Tunsil to get Apple.
The Gettlemen says things like: Run the ball, stop the run and rush the passer. This is music to our ears. However, the gig didn't come with a magic wand. Solder, Hernandez while inconsistent are part of the solution. We need a real Center ( ask Matt Ryan if having Alex Mack is helpful ) a Right Guard and Right Tackle. Barkley will be happy and unfortunately Eli may not be here to enjoy the line, kinda like Coughlin didn't get to enjoy the additions of Jenkins, Vernon and Snacks in 2016.
semantics are highly relevant. it’s a bs narrative. The ny giants did fine by Eli. they won two championships with him.
lebron winning only one championship with cleveland where the owner did not commit to surrounding him with decent talent in his first stint resembles sabotage, even if that is far fetched.
they certainly failed to field a competitive team the last few years. who is arguing that? they just were not very good.
semantics are highly relevant. it’s a bs narrative. The ny giants did fine by Eli. they won two championships with him.
lebron winning only one championship with cleveland where the owner did not commit to surrounding him with decent talent in his first stint resembles sabotage, even if that is far fetched.
they certainly failed to field a competitive team the last few years. who is arguing that? they just were not very good.
Giants did fine by Eli? Ok, so they didn't want to win more championships? 2 was enough? The failure to provide a viable O Line of the past 6-7 years is pathetic. In fact they have been poor at drafting LB's since 1993. This may be a scouting issue I am not sure but failing to support a " Pocket Passer " with a pocket is similar to sabotage.
The Giants sabotaged/betrayed themselves AND the fans by not protecting their most valuable asset who was coming into his prime and only 31 years old in 2011.
You guys have been going on and on and one for months about Franchise QB this, franchise QB that, have to have one, can't win without one.
We fucking had one you dolts! And the organization failed to do the one thing they needed to do and protect that asset.
at least we were incredibly fortunate to win 2 SBs with a good QB.
Beyond the examples I listed earlier, I can list players of greater skills and status than Eli who never got their hands on the silver. And played with organizations who also tried and failed.
coming off 2011, they were so damn dialed in, and the ONLY thing that could derail it was an offensive line that couldn't block for it to continue.... That's the one thing they couldn't afford to have happen, and it did.
We started every damn season up until 2012 at 6-2.... Â
YES clearly the Giants intentionally tried to be bad during the years of 2012-18. Ridiculous. Am I suggesting that?
Two super bowls is a good haul for a qb era, superior players like Rodgers and Marino have less. Those teams, btw, did not sabotage anything for their players. they simply failed to win more or at all. Fairly common in sports.
Clearly the Giants failed in fielding a contending team, but in fact, they invested plenty of resources in both the line and in offensive players on offense to give a window for their qb. In fact tried to extend it when a logical argument could have been made to move on.
The argument of sabotage would imply some level of disservice to such a superior player (see Lebron example above or Barry Sanders), or some form of tanking that they conducted, neither of which applies here.
being dialed in from 2009-2012 is fine, and not argued. It was not a given that it should last anything longer than that.
The issues were more than the line. they lost Nicks and Manningham two big weapons and Cruz lost effectiveness asa result. And schematically Gilbride's offense could not exist without vertical threats, the combination of the decline of the o line, losing bradshaw and then losing cruz without enough quality players was the end of a good run.
this is nothing unqiue in sports though, continued sustained excellence is not a given you are presuming it to be.
than me. I've been pounding them for 20+ years for their inability to produce a consistently good, winning product. So welcome to the party. Next time you start drooling over what a great owner and guy Mara is think about this conversation.
Somehow, despite this front office, a deal was made with the football Gods to win two of the most improbable SBs ever. So at least Eli got those on his resume.
And, again, players of greater skills and ability never came close to that good fortune...
YES clearly the Giants intentionally tried to be bad during the years of 2012-18. Ridiculous. Am I suggesting that?
Two super bowls is a good haul for a qb era, superior players like Rodgers and Marino have less. Those teams, btw, did not sabotage anything for their players. they simply failed to win more or at all. Fairly common in sports.
Clearly the Giants failed in fielding a contending team, but in fact, they invested plenty of resources in both the line and in offensive players on offense to give a window for their qb. In fact tried to extend it when a logical argument could have been made to move on.
The argument of sabotage would imply some level of disservice to such a superior player (see Lebron example above or Barry Sanders), or some form of tanking that they conducted, neither of which applies here.
Hassan,
Your post seemed to suggest contentment with 2 rings and that oh well Eli had his moment in the sun. I know what you mean, we should feel fortunate, and I am a fan who does feel fortunate. I am also a fan that also sees the reality of our situation: failure by Jerry Reese, Marc Ross to draft well over and over again. Look at our roster even before Apple and Flowers were sent packing. Only a few players from Reese's last 5 drafts still on the team: OBJ, Shep, Engram, Gallman, Tomlinson, Collins, Goodson.....that's it. Heck, I'll give him credit for DeOssie and Wynn as well. 9 players! Horrid!
No offensive linemen. Pathetic!
I think Gettlemen will continue to build the O Line and hopefully find a young QB to take over assuming Lauletta isn't him.
Either way, the reality is the Giants failed and building the lines. Failed. This is why we are 1-7 for the 2nd year in a row.
That picture looks like a battle scene from Braveheart. Â
there is no argument that NYG failed in building a line. No one is arguing organizational ineptitude.
Its more complicated than just that though. Nicks, Cruz Manningham, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Terrell Thomas all fell to horrendous injuries.
they failed to build depth at wr with multiple busts like Jernigan, Barden, and semi busts like Randle.
they failed to draft well at corner, holsey and apple come to mind, defensive ends like sintim and moore, te like beckhum and robinson.
And not to stir our favorite debate up but #10 also gets his fair share of blame. He's simple not as good as he was in his prime for at least three seasons running.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
that is no dig on Manning. football is not the type of game where an individual talent can will a team to a championship save LT in 86, the closest to a one man gang out there (and he was surrounded by great talent as well). Just some of the revisionism and narrative is downright scary at this point.
there is no argument that NYG failed in building a line. No one is arguing organizational ineptitude.
Its more complicated than just that though. Nicks, Cruz Manningham, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Terrell Thomas all fell to horrendous injuries.
they failed to build depth at wr with multiple busts like Jernigan, Barden, and semi busts like Randle.
they failed to draft well at corner, holsey and apple come to mind, defensive ends like sintim and moore, te like beckhum and robinson.
And not to stir our favorite debate up but #10 also gets his fair share of blame. He's simple not as good as he was in his prime for at least three seasons running.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
I am by no way saying Eli wins another super bowl, but we should be way more competitive than we are. The NFC East is a sad division. We have talent but never have a lead, can't run the ball and can't control the clock or line of scrimmage. Many issues would disappear if we a semblance of a professional O Line
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
while the o line is clearly a problem, the obvious fact the Giants were nowhere near the best team in the league when they won their super bowls is seemingly lost on people; it’s as the greatness of the team was manifest destiny and squandered only by a weak o line.
Truly nonsensical stuff here. Granted, fielding a better team MAY have led to some more interesting post seasons in recent years, but this notion it was a given, and the fact the Giants’ fans misery is now hard to take are so me of the worst lines of thinking i have seeen around here.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
The Giants weren't a juggernaut, but they were in the postseason 5/7 years between 2005 and 2011.
And considering that they caught fire in 2 of those seasons, isn't consistent postseason play the name of the game?
As I said, between 2004 and 2012, the Giants started every year 6-2. That gets you in pretty good position for a postseason play.
2013 when the line was gone? 0-6, and look at the struggling starts since.
The name of the game is consistent postseason play, because we had the guy under center that could light up when he got there.
And one of those years they missed the playoffs at 10-6. Â
Lots of coaches from the same time period are still humming along, because they were able to keep a consistent roster and handle turnover to allow them to keep running our system.
Jerry Reese and Marc Ross had a DECADE of terrible drafting.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
Great post Britt. I remember hearing the Gilbride told front office to replenish the OL and he was handed Mitch Petrus and James Brewer. Sad.
The Giants weren't a juggernaut, but they were in the postseason 5/7 years between 2005 and 2011.
And considering that they caught fire in 2 of those seasons, isn't consistent postseason play the name of the game?
As I said, between 2004 and 2012, the Giants started every year 6-2. That gets you in pretty good position for a postseason play.
2013 when the line was gone? 0-6, and look at the struggling starts since.
The name of the game is consistent postseason play, because we had the guy under center that could light up when he got there.
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
This is exactly why you cannot get mad or upset about what some posters say on this board. You just can’t fix stupid.
that a system never fails players do is also nonsense. i guess the Giants could continue to run a wing t then?
Gilbride was a run n shoot guy a system the nfl had gotten away from. he modified it quite a bit but it still runs counter to most of what is happening especially given how easy it is to pass in the middle of the field vs the past.
it worked for a window and that run came to an end. talent was a bigger part of it but that scheme does not maximize what can be done to attack a defense under current rules.
The Cowboys of the 90s also came to an end after 6-7 years. so did the 70s steelers. As did the 80s giants. the aughts Giants were the least dominant of the teams mentioned so i don’t get the hand wringing.
les point that the defense had a big role in the sb was countering a nonsense notion of ‘sabotage’. what the Giants tried to do with Eli was far from sabotage it was not even negligence. organizational ineptitude and unfortunate? sure. but they drafted with offense in mind and extended his window.
less about Eli and more about battling extreme criticism of nyg.
and his point at face value is not horrendous, but you guys are getting into his history...
It required 5 and 7 step drops that the offensive line Â
who is employing 5-7 step drops league wide? How many teams?
vertical passing was already becoming a dinosaur then. it worked because NYG had good vertical threats and a road grader line for a period and we are talking about 05-12. it was not realistic to presume they would continue to roll, another terrible assumption you are making as very few teams stay strong for over a decade in particular in this century.
And no shit, the Giants line was bad? who and what are you even debating
at this point? who is even arguing they were not terrible?
les point that the defense had a big role in the sb was countering a nonsense notion of ‘sabotage’. what the Giants tried to do with Eli was far from sabotage it was not even negligence. organizational ineptitude and unfortunate? sure. but they drafted with offense in mind and extended his window.
less about Eli and more about battling extreme criticism of nyg.
and his point at face value is not horrendous, but you guys are getting into his history...
Actually I beg to differ. Les is a notorious Eli hater. Always has been, always will be. Just like I am an Eli defender. He has given the defense all the credit for the SB wins and never mentions Eli's or the offenses play. He claims guys like Madison and Kiwunuka and a bunch of other average players raising their game.... but never EVER mentions this...
Eli rating rose 22 points from his regular season performance in the playoffs in 2007 and 12 points in 2011.
He had 260 YPG. 15/2 TD/INT ratio. 8 wins, 0 losses. All on the road. If thats not elevating your play in the big moments - then there isnt much there is. And for him to never EVER give Eli credit for it and giving all to the defense is just sad and a troll job at this point.
If Jerry Reese and Marc Ross adequately stocked the offensive Â
line and transitioned from old to new, there is zero doubt in my mind Coughlin, Gilbride, Reese, and Ross would still be here if they wanted to be, and the offense would still be thriving.
You can't convince me otherwise.
As far as WR's go, we transitioned through several sets of WR's through the years without missing a beat. Eli Manning made good WR's out of lesser guys, just by having time to go through his progressions and find the open guys.
Steve Smith broke an all time Giants record as the number one in 2009. Steve Smith is a good player, but he is an example of a player that was elevated by both the offense and the quarterback. Manningham is another one.
You said it yourself, the Giants need big targets downfield. So why don't we have any? Eli also made nobody's at TE look like all stars. Why don't we have any more guys like that? Why were we drafting Travis Beckham and Evan Engram types? Roster problem.
It's so damn clear that Reese/Ross were all about speed, natural Â
a static group of gm, coaches and coordinators and qb for 15 years. Not even New England has this. It would be close to unparallel to have this level of continuity.
You are being extremely reductive in your line of thinking. The issue is about not evolving. You are viewing it as if they should have kept things the same. Certainly you are entitled to think they would keep rolling but I would highly disagree with you.
Coaches, strategy, personnel, declining play from stars, weak groupings all had a hand and a role in this.
The 49ers that won for 18 year straight changed qbs, coaches, gms etc. Had to evolve their offense a few times as teams started to figure out their west coast attack.
But beating up the NYG as an organization is ridiculous, they were bound to run into a dry spell, this team was fortunate to upset a lot of heavy favorites in playoff runs not to take away from the fact they were good, but its convenient to forget the good fortune and then kick the org for not continuing to make deep playoff runs.
This is the worst spell for me as a 43 year old fan and I still have fresh memories of the 2012 super bowl, all in all better than just about any other fan base.
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Just wanted to reply to this post one more time. My God this is just a horrific take. How someone that watched those two runs (and I am assuming you didn't due to that statement) could say that a QB throwing 15 TDs to 2 INTs in 8 games was "carried" is beyond me. QB ratings of 95 and 103 in both of the runs respectively. Like, cmon dude.
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Just wanted to reply to this post one more time. My God this is just a horrific take. How someone that watched those two runs (and I am assuming you didn't due to that statement) could say that a QB throwing 15 TDs to 2 INTs in 8 games was "carried" is beyond me. QB ratings of 95 and 103 in both of the runs respectively. Like, cmon dude.
Sorry to misquote you. You said elevated not carried. Equally bad.
it did not work out, there was nothing wrong with drafting engram in 17 and barkley in 18 this team needs the weapons, they again invested heavily in 18 in line it simply is not panning out.
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
Yea Tom Brady should be furious ...
Gisele net worth: $360 Million
+1 Brady reworked his contract several times often deferring money to enable the Pats to sign other players, easy to do when the wife is pulling in $50mil per year.
we all love Eli but the references to 2011 really need to stop at this point. It was 7 years ago. His play has declined severely since that time.
I'm talking about the damn team! I always get accused of making it about Eli, but I'm talking about building the team. Winning games. Keeping the core and the system going.
Eli was a symptom, not the sickness.
RE: they invested heavily in offensive line between 13 and 15 Â
it did not work out, there was nothing wrong with drafting engram in 17 and barkley in 18 this team needs the weapons, they again invested heavily in 18 in line it simply is not panning out.
Yeah, too late. Gilbride is quoted as saying he and Coughlin went to management as early as 2009 to say they needed to start restocking the offensive line, that it was failing. And we all saw it in 2009. Ohara was falling apart. Seubert was getting pushed back.
Why did it take until 2013 to start focusing on O-linemen in the draft? Because they had to at that point.
“I’m kind of surprised to hear him say that,” Gilbride said when asked about general manager Jerry Reese saying it was time for a change. “No one had figured that offense out for 24 years. To think that they figured it out this year would be pretty ludicrous. I think it was pretty obvious what the problems were. We had a confluence of injuries, we were very weak on the offensive line. We had some guys who struggled. We started six different offensive tailbacks, three different fullbacks, three different right guards, four different centers … You’re not going to have anything (with that). You can say it’s the offense, but it’s pretty clear what the problem was.”
Gilbride said he saw cracks in the Giants roster in 2012, and thought it was a matter of when – not if – a pitfall was coming.
“I certainly have expressed those concerns for a number of years,” Gilbride said. “It wasn’t a matter of if, it was a matter of when it was going to happen.”
Combined with a few other issues – Gilbride said he had “one guy playing” at wide receiver, which was Victor Cruz – there wasn’t much room for the system to thrive.
He thought that owner John Mara’s post-season comment about the misuse of wide receiver Jerrel Jernigan – “I’m not sure why it took us three years to figure out he could play” – was a “cheap shot.”
In 2009, the David Diehl-Rich-Seubert-Shaun O’Hara-Chris Snee-Kareem McKenzie offensive line was intact.
O’Hara played only six games in 2010 and then retired due to injury. Seubert, who fought though multiple injuries, also retired after 2010. McKenzie retired after the 2011 season. Diehl hung on through 2013, but his last couple of seasons were regrettable. Snee played only three games in 2013 due to injuries, then retired after an aborted 2014 comeback attempt.
Yet, a full three-year gap existed before the Giants attempted to add a significant piece to the line.
“Back in 2009 I started to argue that the line was getting old and 2010 we were getting beat up, we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 even when we won the Super Bowl there were multiple guys getting hurt and banged up, and by 2012 we went 9-7 but we were hanging on by dear life,” Gilbride said. “We were hanging onto that windowsill with our fingernails. When 2013 happened and there were six different starters at running back, three different at right guard, four different at center, three at left guard. That stuff’s been going on for a while now.
“This isn’t just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.”
they did try to sign Bass as a center who also did not work out in 11. they drafted other projects which did not work out, because it is not reasonable to invest premium picks consistenly in a line. Additionally they also happened to lose Strahan tuck and Osi in a 4-5 year window, needed new blood in the secondary not to mention Bradshaw and Jacobs winding down and I remember having to invest in new receivers as well since Plax was out and Toomer had to go. I think there were other competing concerns.
A very good to great 7 year window which resulted in two championships came to an end. You are now lamenting the fact they did not become a dynasty and reducing it to offensive line play which is wholly reductive and simplistic, along with your penchant for Eli worship, which implies they have wronged some special generational talent.
And yes, he was a generational player for us. When was the last time we had a QB like that?
Simms, when I was a little kid.
And before that?
I wasn't even alive.
The blew the entire second half of our HOF Franchise QB's career, and by doing that blew a 6 or 7 year window where we could have had an opportunity to compete for another championship.
Gilbride is stating known facts....the talent was thinning and a good ride came to an end.
It was not the managements fault Nicks and Wilson were injured and cut short, and Randle was supposed to be an early round pick who was a semi bust but this happens eventually.
great, lets get this straight. so Phil simms, who was the last great qb the Giants had, was retired 11 years before Eli came on. Hardly some eternal wait, and a very capable fill in from Kerry Collins in that duration.
the first five years of his career were injury plagued and mismanaged. The giants sat him voluntarily for Hostetler for two of those seasons (extremly poor decision) then cut him after a pro bowl season in 1993. It happens in a long career. Thats how team sports go.
So this idea that the Giants 'wasted' Eli, when Eli himself seems to have been playing subpar for a few of these seasons at least is just a bunk idea. the team lost quality, no one is even arguing against that.
to use the term 'sabotage'- what got us on this discussion in the first place-to describe the NYG's treatment of Eli is an absolute farce as agreed upon by at least a few posters here.
And if you try to even claim you arent an ardent supporter of Eli, I dont know what to say. I guess resorting to barbs is what people making a shaky argument resort to.
is weak, which is very different than calling someone a tool. No problem with you critiquing any point made.
And yes, you are suggesting keeping a static team of coaching coordinators and qb together for 15 years, very little anecdotal evidence of this ever being the case in NFL history especially in recent times.
And that continued excellence was a given if the line was only addressed. Written plenty about that.
And no, I'm not suggesting the Giants should be content. But the impatience and suggestion they are some sabotaging outfit does not sit well.
the giants went on the road and beat a 13-3, 13-3 and a 16-0 team. Certainly tremendous accomplishments. Were they better than NE for the entire season? No. they were timing their best play well.
At the very least, it was fortunate things aligned the way they did. So count the good and the bad.
RE: It required 5 and 7 step drops that the offensive line Â
No run game, couldn't pass block... It was a line problem.
How do you know it ran it's course? So it just stopped working in one offseason all of the sudden?
It absolutely stopped working because it became an incredibly inefficient system for which to build a roster, particularly in comparison to the quick strike passing games that were far simpler and could take advantage of the rule changes in recent years.
Combined with the changes in the college game that made it more difficult to identify and acquire OL talent, the change in the CBA to limit practice time (particularly full contact practices), the inherent challenges in building a team well suited for Gilbride's offensive system were put on full display by 2013. You're right that it was a roster problem, but it was made that much worse by KG's offense being especially difficult to build a roster for.
almost comically refuted. Britt loves to throw these flimsy arguments around and then pouts. And typically gets to the point of a temper tantrum and leaves the discussion.
Saying my view (really Kevin Gilbride's view but I digress) is simplistic and that I have a penchant for Eli "worship" isn't a barb?
The Giants tanked in 1991 because Parcells and Belichick left.
Simms was also injured throughout his career. Something that Eli never struggled with.
You're logic is... "hey, it's been a nice run. Let's be satisfied with that and shut it down to go a different direction".
And another poster has pointed that out on this thread as well.
That was me that pointed that out Britt. Hassan, maybe sabotage is a poor use of words to describe what NYG has done since it seems intentional so lets go with dropped the ball severely. Does that work?
I do think the Giants failed to act on the aging offensive line Â
quickly enough - that much I don't think anyone can debate.
After that - they tried, plying high draft picks and FA resources into addressing the line, and failed, repeatedly.
That caused a revolving door around everyone but Eli. In that timeframe, everything else was changed, and the results remained the same.
I don't know why it's so difficult to accept that Eli might have been part of this problem. He was always sensitive to poor line play, so being a bit older, having taken some beatings, it would only stand to reason that his effectiveness would drop heavily unless he had superior protection.
Superior protection that just isn't really available in the NFL anymore, and has been suspect for a few years now.
Lets all understand something about how that famed O Line was built Â
during the 2005-2011 seasons.
2001: Rich Suebert signed as an undrafted FA
2003: David Diehl drafted in the 5th round
2004: Sean Ohara, signed as FA from Cleveland ( originally an undrafted free agent )
2004: Chris Snee, drafted in the 2nd round
2005: Kareem Mckenzie, signed as a free agent ( originally drafted in the 3rd round )
Not 1 first round player in the group. The key to the whole line was scouting, chemistry, fit in an offensive system.
I understand that Reese was a scout and I believe he was in charge of college scouting at one time for NYG so he may have been involved in signing and scouting some of these players. Gettlemen was in charge of Pro Personnel and scouted current NFL players and may have has a hand in bringing in Ohara and Mckenzie. Either way, when Reese took over as GM, the selections of both college players and Pro O Line was poor. Beatty might have been the best of them all and that is saying a lot cause he wasn't very good.
Hopefully Gettlemen can bring back the O Line as a strength as it should be. More things will fall into place once this happens, until then, whom ever the NY Giants QB is will be running for his life.
Let's all discount Kevin Gilbride's "ass covering" and go with Greg's version of events.
It's the exact same thing McAdoo and Hue Jackson did the second they were out of a job. "I wanted Mahomes. I told them what I needed and they didnt listen." CYA mode. Call a spade a spade.
so Gettleman was in charge of pro personnel, and we brought in poor OL while he was here, and we're expecting that to be repaired now?
Not surprisingly, our first FA signings in his new tenure have failed.
Actually, just the opposite. DG brought in good FA OL Ohara and McKenzie. Solder has been up and down and yes considering what was paid he should be playing better but there were not many options out there in terms of LT position. It was either sign Solder or keep Flowers there or give Wheeler a shot at the LT position.
So did Steve Young. Both, in my estimation, however humble, far superior qbs to Eli, and not even a particular knock on Eli thats how good those guys were.
Brett Favre was under 30.
Aaron Rodgers too. good chance he does not get another one.
Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Fran Takenton went ringless.
What would the description of what these organizations did to their qbs?
But somehow, it was 'criminal negligence, sabotage, etc' by the Giants Eli's window was not extended past 31 (which they did try to do repeatedly and simply failed, but for at least a few of these years he was part and parcel of the problem)......again, this reads like Mara turned into Jerry Reinsdorf and broke the Bulls up.
Is it unfortunate they did not extend their window with Eli? Yes, but this is a very common phenomenon as pointed out above and not so sure why its so noteworthy with Eli.
And we all know the o line sucks. Problems are much deeper than that factor alone.
Favre played into his 40's and was on several competitive teams.... Â
It's about fielding a competitive team WHILE THEY HAD ELI (which all I hear around here is how important it is to have a franchise QB, how you can't win without one, etc....)
Well they had one! In his prime! And they f-cking wasted it!
RE: Favre played into his 40's and was on several competitive teams.... Â
and several postseason runs, and the Packers consistently fielded good teams until his first "retirement".
Aaron Rodgers is still playing and they've fielded several competitive teams since he won that first Superbowl, including a 15 and 1 season.
Eli was 31, coming off an MVP level year, when the roster went to shit.
They failed. Why is this so hard to understand?
Plus, I don't know if the issue here is championships or just plain competitiveness. The roster in general has been pretty bad. I believe I pointed out that about 9-11 players drafted by Reese still on this roster since 2007. Having to go on several spending sprees to fix the mistakes of the past drafts, giving JPP all that money. This team can't compete right now because we can run the ball or pass block for more than 3 seconds.
Where do you see an emphasis on skill players there?
Not Barkley. Resigning Beckham more so. With regards to team building, I don’t think it’s beneficial to invest all that money into a WR off a major injury.
Gilbride's system is almost impossible to stop if the QB and receiver make the correct read. If they do not, it can look ugly. Reese's size speed chart and adherence to combine numbers was not a good fit. You cannot put a guy with a 6 Wonderlic regardless of his shuttle or 40 times into Gilbrides's system. You also need a solid OL to make it work. Reese tried and failed to keep the OL stocked. He made some terrible picks. I think they could have done better with the end of Eli's career. All of that said, it is over. Eli is not the same guy anymore, he is toast now, whose fault it is doesn't matter at all. I think a strong running game combined with a downfield passing attack can still win championships in the NFL today. However, I also believe the time of immobile QB is gone.
team did not replace Jacobs or Bradshaw with a starter level replacement. The dancing with stars guy sucked.
The team STILL does not have a viable starter at C, RG, or RT. LT looks like the bust of the decade. RG seems good.
On defense we are still waiting for a viable LB who would start on most teams. Tight end? I might be in my grave before the Giants get a viable starter at this position. Spare me with Engram I would call him a coach killer but he is not that good.
You could argue the whole line except LG still needs to be replaced. The Giants had a stone cold killer at QB who was fucking indestructible and they could not build even a mediocre roster. Then they scapegoated TC and brought in some mercenary D talent for a run. Too bad they gave that talent to McAdoo, I wish I could have seen Coughlin with that D. That was not a sustainable way to build a roster though and that team shot its load with the loss in Green Bay. Since then this team is the worst in the NFL. They have failed utterly with the hardest to replace piece on the roster. Now we are also playing find a coach since McAdoo crashed and burned and Shurmur is likely right behind him.
Failure is the word. Many years of prime Eli were wasted, how is this even debatable?
team did not replace Jacobs or Bradshaw with a starter level replacement. The dancing with stars guy sucked.
The team STILL does not have a viable starter at C, RG, or RT. LT looks like the bust of the decade. RG seems good.
On defense we are still waiting for a viable LB who would start on most teams. Tight end? I might be in my grave before the Giants get a viable starter at this position. Spare me with Engram I would call him a coach killer but he is not that good.
You could argue the whole line except LG still needs to be replaced. The Giants had a stone cold killer at QB who was fucking indestructible and they could not build even a mediocre roster. Then they scapegoated TC and brought in some mercenary D talent for a run. Too bad they gave that talent to McAdoo, I wish I could have seen Coughlin with that D. That was not a sustainable way to build a roster though and that team shot its load with the loss in Green Bay. Since then this team is the worst in the NFL. They have failed utterly with the hardest to replace piece on the roster. Now we are also playing find a coach since McAdoo crashed and burned and Shurmur is likely right behind him.
Failure is the word. Many years of prime Eli were wasted, how is this even debatable?
Rashad Jennings is the dancing RB you are referring to.
Between the roster being completely overhauled, a new offense, a new defense, a completely new offensive line, there are so many moving parts it is hard to find continuity. Our defense was without its best pass rusher in Vernon. Flowers was still on our O Line. No leadership.
this is not some historic squandering, which is my entire point.
they got two super bowls out of him. You continue to use caps and emotional arguments rather than grounding this with real examples. I aslo thought you were done with this thread?
Forget about the name eli. the giants had a good player a franchise qb and failed to continue a run which lasted 7 years and could have lasted 10.
Same thing has happened many times to many teams as I pointed out.
You seem to consider this some epic fail as do other people, which is in reality really not so much the case when considered with contextual examples.
this has been a poorly performing team overall from 2012-2018, for any number of factors.
But not because of some extra special disservice to any one player or a singular positional fail. Its several factors.
And when many teams like the Bears, Jets, Dolphins, Chargers (with a franchise qb), 49ers and others have had extended playoff sabaticals its not as if parity makes some period of sucking not commonplace. Again, Giants were very much due for this type of period. Its not an alibi but the plight of the ny giants fan is hardly something i'm feeling any genuine remorse for.
ot bust. But, to have been consistently competative within the division and for wild card spots. Or, by the franchise's standard, to play meaningful games in late December.
sure. The giants are not succeeding at making the playoffs and i’m not expecting sbs every few years. but that does not change or factor into any of my take. the context of 2005-2011 must be accounted for and the fact they had a great run followed by a poor one. 2012-2018 was not a good era for NYG. it’s hopefully going to shift soon.
sure. The giants are not succeeding at making the playoffs and i’m not expecting sbs every few years. but that does not change or factor into any of my take. the context of 2005-2011 must be accounted for and the fact they had a great run followed by a poor one. 2012-2018 was not a good era for NYG. it’s hopefully going to shift soon.
And read some of the comments... I'm ASHAMED to be a giants fan.
Sometimes I feel like this fan base never deserved Eli. Excuse me while I go throw up a little.
Lol@ the prick who said Eli "owes eternal gratitude" to a 32nd ranked defense that rode into the playoffs in Eli's backpack where he continued to carry the most mediocre team to ever win the super bowl.
sure. The giants are not succeeding at making the playoffs and i’m not expecting sbs every few years. but that does not change or factor into any of my take. the context of 2005-2011 must be accounted for and the fact they had a great run followed by a poor one. 2012-2018 was not a good era for NYG. it’s hopefully going to shift soon.
Yeah, when the offensive line gets fixed, it will.
Whether it be Barkley, or the new QB. Fix the offensive line, fix the team.
the o line cannot be as bad as it is to move forward. they need better play from their next qb than the last two seasons, a more innovate coach, better pass rush and lbs have been a chronic issue as well in pass coverage as well as better safety play.
dallas looks mediocre with a decent line so it’s much more than one unit.
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
Yea Tom Brady should be furious ...
Gisele net worth: $360 Million
+1 Brady reworked his contract several times often deferring money to enable the Pats to sign other players, easy to do when the wife is pulling in $50mil per year.
It's easy to do regardless, when you make the kind of money he makes.
RE: I do think the Giants failed to act on the aging offensive line Â
quickly enough - that much I don't think anyone can debate.
After that - they tried, plying high draft picks and FA resources into addressing the line, and failed, repeatedly.
That caused a revolving door around everyone but Eli. In that timeframe, everything else was changed, and the results remained the same.
I don't know why it's so difficult to accept that Eli might have been part of this problem. He was always sensitive to poor line play, so being a bit older, having taken some beatings, it would only stand to reason that his effectiveness would drop heavily unless he had superior protection.
Superior protection that just isn't really available in the NFL anymore, and has been suspect for a few years now.
I agree with almost everything here. It's an excellent post. The only thing that I didn't like was the comment about superior line play. Others have made similar comments, or taken the opposite approach of saying OL is not great around the league. True...but the Giants haven't had even decent OL play for the better part of at least 5 years. They have consistently had one of the worst 2 or 3 OL for at least that span. To me, that is the single biggest contributing factor.
Second is coaching. With Coughlin still on board, Eli thrived in a variation of the offense McAdoo brought. When McAdoo was in charge, bis offense morphed into a far mor.conservative and far more predictable version.
Now, Eli himself comes in at #3. After years of bad line play and bad coaching, combined with him now being 37, his play has finally started to erode. I would argue that prior to this season, that was not the case. I would also argue that with even an average OL he would do enough for us to win. But, we, again, have the worst OL in football arguably. It has caught up with Eli. We are now wasting the skill players we have, because there should be enough talent on O to score a decent amount of points each week.
Certainly look like some hogs rolling around in the mud.
Again... worried about sabotaging the career of a man who has made tens of millions in the process. Meanwhile, the Giants organization essentially STOLE from its season ticket holders with the product they put on the field. That is why they owe an apology (and a partial refund) to.
Great fans we have here.
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Yeah Sam Madison and Mathias kiwunuka were more instrumental than elinfor our two Super Bowls.
What a fucking shitty fan you are.
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Again... worried about sabotaging the career of a man who has made tens of millions in the process. Meanwhile, the Giants organization essentially STOLE from its season ticket holders with the product they put on the field. That is why they owe an apology (and a partial refund) to.
You do realize that by sabotaging Eli's career they were in turn actually causing the product on the field you're bitching about?
I mean, franchise QB blah blah blah and all....
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
You are an insufferable fan.
Hopefully. They could get clear cap room. A team with 4 wins over the past 2 years has cap issues. Go figure.
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Do you even watch football? How do you make this case for 2011, an all time great quarterbacking SEASON by Eli? Or are you just a troll I'm unfamiliar with?
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
You're one of the worst posters on this board. Congrats!
Symantics. The idea of sabotage is the mere fact that Reese failed to invest in the offensive line for years. Then when he finally did he reached for guys like Pugh, Richburg and Flowers. Understanding that the offensive line is the engine of a football team and when you can run and psd protect your can control the game. Reese actually had a draft where he didn't draft an offensive or defensive linemen!!! WTF is that? Then he passed in Ramchyk to get Engram, Tunsil to get Apple.
The Gettlemen says things like: Run the ball, stop the run and rush the passer. This is music to our ears. However, the gig didn't come with a magic wand. Solder, Hernandez while inconsistent are part of the solution. We need a real Center ( ask Matt Ryan if having Alex Mack is helpful ) a Right Guard and Right Tackle. Barkley will be happy and unfortunately Eli may not be here to enjoy the line, kinda like Coughlin didn't get to enjoy the additions of Jenkins, Vernon and Snacks in 2016.
Just like he demanded a trade in the draft.
lebron winning only one championship with cleveland where the owner did not commit to surrounding him with decent talent in his first stint resembles sabotage, even if that is far fetched.
they certainly failed to field a competitive team the last few years. who is arguing that? they just were not very good.
lebron winning only one championship with cleveland where the owner did not commit to surrounding him with decent talent in his first stint resembles sabotage, even if that is far fetched.
they certainly failed to field a competitive team the last few years. who is arguing that? they just were not very good.
Giants did fine by Eli? Ok, so they didn't want to win more championships? 2 was enough? The failure to provide a viable O Line of the past 6-7 years is pathetic. In fact they have been poor at drafting LB's since 1993. This may be a scouting issue I am not sure but failing to support a " Pocket Passer " with a pocket is similar to sabotage.
Try being Dan Fouts and having an organization that couldn't field a competent defense.
Try being a great passer like Ken Anderson who just happened to play in the AFC in the '70s when the Steelers were a powerhouse.
This narrative that Eli was somehow betrayed is utter bullsh-t...
You guys have been going on and on and one for months about Franchise QB this, franchise QB that, have to have one, can't win without one.
We fucking had one you dolts! And the organization failed to do the one thing they needed to do and protect that asset.
It's pretty simple.
Beyond the examples I listed earlier, I can list players of greater skills and status than Eli who never got their hands on the silver. And played with organizations who also tried and failed.
This pity party for poor Eli is really pathetic.
2013 with a shit o-line? 0-6 for the first time ever for Coughlin.
How anybody can't see the complete failure here and instead wants to worry about "pity parties, sabotages, and betrayals" is being stupid.
We could have had a shot at another couple of deep postseason runs if we could have just kept the stupid line going.
Two super bowls is a good haul for a qb era, superior players like Rodgers and Marino have less. Those teams, btw, did not sabotage anything for their players. they simply failed to win more or at all. Fairly common in sports.
Clearly the Giants failed in fielding a contending team, but in fact, they invested plenty of resources in both the line and in offensive players on offense to give a window for their qb. In fact tried to extend it when a logical argument could have been made to move on.
The argument of sabotage would imply some level of disservice to such a superior player (see Lebron example above or Barry Sanders), or some form of tanking that they conducted, neither of which applies here.
The issues were more than the line. they lost Nicks and Manningham two big weapons and Cruz lost effectiveness asa result. And schematically Gilbride's offense could not exist without vertical threats, the combination of the decline of the o line, losing bradshaw and then losing cruz without enough quality players was the end of a good run.
this is nothing unqiue in sports though, continued sustained excellence is not a given you are presuming it to be.
Somehow, despite this front office, a deal was made with the football Gods to win two of the most improbable SBs ever. So at least Eli got those on his resume.
And, again, players of greater skills and ability never came close to that good fortune...
Two super bowls is a good haul for a qb era, superior players like Rodgers and Marino have less. Those teams, btw, did not sabotage anything for their players. they simply failed to win more or at all. Fairly common in sports.
Clearly the Giants failed in fielding a contending team, but in fact, they invested plenty of resources in both the line and in offensive players on offense to give a window for their qb. In fact tried to extend it when a logical argument could have been made to move on.
The argument of sabotage would imply some level of disservice to such a superior player (see Lebron example above or Barry Sanders), or some form of tanking that they conducted, neither of which applies here.
Hassan,
Your post seemed to suggest contentment with 2 rings and that oh well Eli had his moment in the sun. I know what you mean, we should feel fortunate, and I am a fan who does feel fortunate. I am also a fan that also sees the reality of our situation: failure by Jerry Reese, Marc Ross to draft well over and over again. Look at our roster even before Apple and Flowers were sent packing. Only a few players from Reese's last 5 drafts still on the team: OBJ, Shep, Engram, Gallman, Tomlinson, Collins, Goodson.....that's it. Heck, I'll give him credit for DeOssie and Wynn as well. 9 players! Horrid!
No offensive linemen. Pathetic!
I think Gettlemen will continue to build the O Line and hopefully find a young QB to take over assuming Lauletta isn't him.
Either way, the reality is the Giants failed and building the lines. Failed. This is why we are 1-7 for the 2nd year in a row.
Its more complicated than just that though. Nicks, Cruz Manningham, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Terrell Thomas all fell to horrendous injuries.
they failed to build depth at wr with multiple busts like Jernigan, Barden, and semi busts like Randle.
they failed to draft well at corner, holsey and apple come to mind, defensive ends like sintim and moore, te like beckhum and robinson.
And not to stir our favorite debate up but #10 also gets his fair share of blame. He's simple not as good as he was in his prime for at least three seasons running.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Its more complicated than just that though. Nicks, Cruz Manningham, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Terrell Thomas all fell to horrendous injuries.
they failed to build depth at wr with multiple busts like Jernigan, Barden, and semi busts like Randle.
they failed to draft well at corner, holsey and apple come to mind, defensive ends like sintim and moore, te like beckhum and robinson.
And not to stir our favorite debate up but #10 also gets his fair share of blame. He's simple not as good as he was in his prime for at least three seasons running.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
I am by no way saying Eli wins another super bowl, but we should be way more competitive than we are. The NFC East is a sad division. We have talent but never have a lead, can't run the ball and can't control the clock or line of scrimmage. Many issues would disappear if we a semblance of a professional O Line
2. Eli Manning, QB — $235.3 million. ...
3. Drew Brees, QB — $221.7 million. ...
4. Tom Brady, QB — $217.2 million. ...
5. Aaron Rodgers, QB — $204.0 million. ...
6. Philip Rivers, QB — $202.9 million. ...
7. Ben Roethlisberger, QB — $187.3 million. ...
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
Truly nonsensical stuff here. Granted, fielding a better team MAY have led to some more interesting post seasons in recent years, but this notion it was a given, and the fact the Giants’ fans misery is now hard to take are so me of the worst lines of thinking i have seeen around here.
2. Eli Manning, QB — $235.3 million. ...
3. Drew Brees, QB — $221.7 million. ...
4. Tom Brady, QB — $217.2 million. ...
5. Aaron Rodgers, QB — $204.0 million. ...
6. Philip Rivers, QB — $202.9 million. ...
7. Ben Roethlisberger, QB — $187.3 million. ...
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
Yea Tom Brady should be furious ...
Gisele net worth: $360 Million
Quote:
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
The Giants weren't a juggernaut, but they were in the postseason 5/7 years between 2005 and 2011.
And considering that they caught fire in 2 of those seasons, isn't consistent postseason play the name of the game?
As I said, between 2004 and 2012, the Giants started every year 6-2. That gets you in pretty good position for a postseason play.
2013 when the line was gone? 0-6, and look at the struggling starts since.
The name of the game is consistent postseason play, because we had the guy under center that could light up when he got there.
Jerry Reese and Marc Ross had a DECADE of terrible drafting.
How is this even debatable at this point?
"The offense is broken".
Bullshit. The roster was broken.
Quote:
In comment 14166502 hassan said:
Quote:
But again, its not as if NYG produced a juggernaut team in 07 and 11 that another title was a given anyway. New Orleans and Philadelphia, two organizations much more consistent than NYG over last decasde have only won once each. That should be something of a barometer. This notion 'Eli was destined for another' is poppycock.....better to recognize the long odds in the wins he had and a lot of things factor into winning championships.
Spot on. People seem to believe that somehow, the Giants left a guaranteed title or two on the table because of organizational bumbling of the OL.
Since the 2004 draft that yielded Eli, BR, Rivers - Rivers has none. Rodgers 1, and Eli and BR 2. Brees was before that, and only has 1.
Only Brady has more than 2. That's a lot of excellent, sustained QB play in there, and only one QB out of all of them has more than 2 SB victories.
It's silly to assume that the Giants left trophies on the table. The best example of a lost title was the one in 2008, and it had nothing to do with the OL. While there was a chance some better drafting and a stronger line could have returned another title, that's a dream more than a gimme.
Great post Britt. I remember hearing the Gilbride told front office to replenish the OL and he was handed Mitch Petrus and James Brewer. Sad.
The Giants weren't a juggernaut, but they were in the postseason 5/7 years between 2005 and 2011.
And considering that they caught fire in 2 of those seasons, isn't consistent postseason play the name of the game?
As I said, between 2004 and 2012, the Giants started every year 6-2. That gets you in pretty good position for a postseason play.
2013 when the line was gone? 0-6, and look at the struggling starts since.
The name of the game is consistent postseason play, because we had the guy under center that could light up when he got there.
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
This is exactly why you cannot get mad or upset about what some posters say on this board. You just can’t fix stupid.
When I enjoy is how people come out like attack dogs when you defend Eli for something and remain quiet when this stupid shit is posted.
Gilbride was a run n shoot guy a system the nfl had gotten away from. he modified it quite a bit but it still runs counter to most of what is happening especially given how easy it is to pass in the middle of the field vs the past.
it worked for a window and that run came to an end. talent was a bigger part of it but that scheme does not maximize what can be done to attack a defense under current rules.
The Cowboys of the 90s also came to an end after 6-7 years. so did the 70s steelers. As did the 80s giants. the aughts Giants were the least dominant of the teams mentioned so i don’t get the hand wringing.
less about Eli and more about battling extreme criticism of nyg.
and his point at face value is not horrendous, but you guys are getting into his history...
Did you even watch the 2013 season?
No run game, couldn't pass block... It was a line problem.
How do you know it ran it's course? So it just stopped working in one offseason all of the sudden?
How can anybody, with the benefit of hindsight, even argue this!?
It was absolutely, 1000% a roster problem.
vertical passing was already becoming a dinosaur then. it worked because NYG had good vertical threats and a road grader line for a period and we are talking about 05-12. it was not realistic to presume they would continue to roll, another terrible assumption you are making as very few teams stay strong for over a decade in particular in this century.
And no shit, the Giants line was bad? who and what are you even debating
at this point? who is even arguing they were not terrible?
less about Eli and more about battling extreme criticism of nyg.
and his point at face value is not horrendous, but you guys are getting into his history...
Actually I beg to differ. Les is a notorious Eli hater. Always has been, always will be. Just like I am an Eli defender. He has given the defense all the credit for the SB wins and never mentions Eli's or the offenses play. He claims guys like Madison and Kiwunuka and a bunch of other average players raising their game.... but never EVER mentions this...
Eli rating rose 22 points from his regular season performance in the playoffs in 2007 and 12 points in 2011.
He had 260 YPG. 15/2 TD/INT ratio. 8 wins, 0 losses. All on the road. If thats not elevating your play in the big moments - then there isnt much there is. And for him to never EVER give Eli credit for it and giving all to the defense is just sad and a troll job at this point.
You can't convince me otherwise.
As far as WR's go, we transitioned through several sets of WR's through the years without missing a beat. Eli Manning made good WR's out of lesser guys, just by having time to go through his progressions and find the open guys.
Steve Smith broke an all time Giants record as the number one in 2009. Steve Smith is a good player, but he is an example of a player that was elevated by both the offense and the quarterback. Manningham is another one.
You said it yourself, the Giants need big targets downfield. So why don't we have any? Eli also made nobody's at TE look like all stars. Why don't we have any more guys like that? Why were we drafting Travis Beckham and Evan Engram types? Roster problem.
They loved measurables, clearly.
It all starts at the LOS. They failed. Big time.
It all starts at the LOS. They failed. Big time.
It seems we are continuing the emphasis on skill positions.
You are being extremely reductive in your line of thinking. The issue is about not evolving. You are viewing it as if they should have kept things the same. Certainly you are entitled to think they would keep rolling but I would highly disagree with you.
Coaches, strategy, personnel, declining play from stars, weak groupings all had a hand and a role in this.
The 49ers that won for 18 year straight changed qbs, coaches, gms etc. Had to evolve their offense a few times as teams started to figure out their west coast attack.
But beating up the NYG as an organization is ridiculous, they were bound to run into a dry spell, this team was fortunate to upset a lot of heavy favorites in playoff runs not to take away from the fact they were good, but its convenient to forget the good fortune and then kick the org for not continuing to make deep playoff runs.
This is the worst spell for me as a 43 year old fan and I still have fresh memories of the 2012 super bowl, all in all better than just about any other fan base.
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Just wanted to reply to this post one more time. My God this is just a horrific take. How someone that watched those two runs (and I am assuming you didn't due to that statement) could say that a QB throwing 15 TDs to 2 INTs in 8 games was "carried" is beyond me. QB ratings of 95 and 103 in both of the runs respectively. Like, cmon dude.
Quote:
In comment 14166173 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
The Giants organization owes a massive apology to Eli for sabotaging the last 6 years of his career. Disgraceful.
Eli owes an eternal debt of gratitude to Strahan Tuck Osi Kiwanuka Webster Rolle Madison and the other defensive stars who elevated those two teams to super bowl champs
Just wanted to reply to this post one more time. My God this is just a horrific take. How someone that watched those two runs (and I am assuming you didn't due to that statement) could say that a QB throwing 15 TDs to 2 INTs in 8 games was "carried" is beyond me. QB ratings of 95 and 103 in both of the runs respectively. Like, cmon dude.
Sorry to misquote you. You said elevated not carried. Equally bad.
Round 2: OL
Round 3: LB
Round 3: DL
Round 4: QB
Round 5: DL
Where do you see an emphasis on skill players there?
Quote:
1. Peyton Manning, QB — $248.7 million.
2. Eli Manning, QB — $235.3 million. ...
3. Drew Brees, QB — $221.7 million. ...
4. Tom Brady, QB — $217.2 million. ...
5. Aaron Rodgers, QB — $204.0 million. ...
6. Philip Rivers, QB — $202.9 million. ...
7. Ben Roethlisberger, QB — $187.3 million. ...
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
Yea Tom Brady should be furious ...
Gisele net worth: $360 Million
+1 Brady reworked his contract several times often deferring money to enable the Pats to sign other players, easy to do when the wife is pulling in $50mil per year.
I'm talking about the damn team! I always get accused of making it about Eli, but I'm talking about building the team. Winning games. Keeping the core and the system going.
Eli was a symptom, not the sickness.
Yeah, too late. Gilbride is quoted as saying he and Coughlin went to management as early as 2009 to say they needed to start restocking the offensive line, that it was failing. And we all saw it in 2009. Ohara was falling apart. Seubert was getting pushed back.
Why did it take until 2013 to start focusing on O-linemen in the draft? Because they had to at that point.
Gilbride said he saw cracks in the Giants roster in 2012, and thought it was a matter of when – not if – a pitfall was coming.
“I certainly have expressed those concerns for a number of years,” Gilbride said. “It wasn’t a matter of if, it was a matter of when it was going to happen.”
Combined with a few other issues – Gilbride said he had “one guy playing” at wide receiver, which was Victor Cruz – there wasn’t much room for the system to thrive.
He thought that owner John Mara’s post-season comment about the misuse of wide receiver Jerrel Jernigan – “I’m not sure why it took us three years to figure out he could play” – was a “cheap shot.”
https://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2014/03/former_giants_offensive_coordinator_kevin_gilbride_defends_himself_in_retirement.html
From 2017:
O’Hara played only six games in 2010 and then retired due to injury. Seubert, who fought though multiple injuries, also retired after 2010. McKenzie retired after the 2011 season. Diehl hung on through 2013, but his last couple of seasons were regrettable. Snee played only three games in 2013 due to injuries, then retired after an aborted 2014 comeback attempt.
Yet, a full three-year gap existed before the Giants attempted to add a significant piece to the line.
“Back in 2009 I started to argue that the line was getting old and 2010 we were getting beat up, we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 even when we won the Super Bowl there were multiple guys getting hurt and banged up, and by 2012 we went 9-7 but we were hanging on by dear life,” Gilbride said. “We were hanging onto that windowsill with our fingernails. When 2013 happened and there were six different starters at running back, three different at right guard, four different at center, three at left guard. That stuff’s been going on for a while now.
“This isn’t just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.”
https://www.bigblueview.com/2017/11/30/16721868/kevin-gilbride-supports-eli-manning-blasts-giants-neglect-of-offensive-line
A very good to great 7 year window which resulted in two championships came to an end. You are now lamenting the fact they did not become a dynasty and reducing it to offensive line play which is wholly reductive and simplistic, along with your penchant for Eli worship, which implies they have wronged some special generational talent.
Simms, when I was a little kid.
And before that?
I wasn't even alive.
The blew the entire second half of our HOF Franchise QB's career, and by doing that blew a 6 or 7 year window where we could have had an opportunity to compete for another championship.
It was not the managements fault Nicks and Wilson were injured and cut short, and Randle was supposed to be an early round pick who was a semi bust but this happens eventually.
the first five years of his career were injury plagued and mismanaged. The giants sat him voluntarily for Hostetler for two of those seasons (extremly poor decision) then cut him after a pro bowl season in 1993. It happens in a long career. Thats how team sports go.
So this idea that the Giants 'wasted' Eli, when Eli himself seems to have been playing subpar for a few of these seasons at least is just a bunk idea. the team lost quality, no one is even arguing against that.
to use the term 'sabotage'- what got us on this discussion in the first place-to describe the NYG's treatment of Eli is an absolute farce as agreed upon by at least a few posters here.
And if you try to even claim you arent an ardent supporter of Eli, I dont know what to say. I guess resorting to barbs is what people making a shaky argument resort to.
Saying my view (really Kevin Gilbride's view but I digress) is simplistic and that I have a penchant for Eli "worship" isn't a barb?
The Giants tanked in 1991 because Parcells and Belichick left.
Simms was also injured throughout his career. Something that Eli never struggled with.
You're logic is... "hey, it's been a nice run. Let's be satisfied with that and shut it down to go a different direction".
And another poster has pointed that out on this thread as well.
I d say that 07 play off run and the 08 season up to the Plaxico situation refute that notion.
LOL, no you're not.
I liked Beatty more than most. But he wasn't enough. Snee and Diehl were declining for a few years. Baas couldn't stay healthy.
They failed Eli after 2011.
And yes, you are suggesting keeping a static team of coaching coordinators and qb together for 15 years, very little anecdotal evidence of this ever being the case in NFL history especially in recent times.
And that continued excellence was a given if the line was only addressed. Written plenty about that.
And no, I'm not suggesting the Giants should be content. But the impatience and suggestion they are some sabotaging outfit does not sit well.
At the very least, it was fortunate things aligned the way they did. So count the good and the bad.
Did you even watch the 2013 season?
No run game, couldn't pass block... It was a line problem.
How do you know it ran it's course? So it just stopped working in one offseason all of the sudden?
It absolutely stopped working because it became an incredibly inefficient system for which to build a roster, particularly in comparison to the quick strike passing games that were far simpler and could take advantage of the rule changes in recent years.
Combined with the changes in the college game that made it more difficult to identify and acquire OL talent, the change in the CBA to limit practice time (particularly full contact practices), the inherent challenges in building a team well suited for Gilbride's offensive system were put on full display by 2013. You're right that it was a roster problem, but it was made that much worse by KG's offense being especially difficult to build a roster for.
Saying my view (really Kevin Gilbride's view but I digress) is simplistic and that I have a penchant for Eli "worship" isn't a barb?
The Giants tanked in 1991 because Parcells and Belichick left.
Simms was also injured throughout his career. Something that Eli never struggled with.
You're logic is... "hey, it's been a nice run. Let's be satisfied with that and shut it down to go a different direction".
And another poster has pointed that out on this thread as well.
That was me that pointed that out Britt. Hassan, maybe sabotage is a poor use of words to describe what NYG has done since it seems intentional so lets go with dropped the ball severely. Does that work?
After that - they tried, plying high draft picks and FA resources into addressing the line, and failed, repeatedly.
That caused a revolving door around everyone but Eli. In that timeframe, everything else was changed, and the results remained the same.
I don't know why it's so difficult to accept that Eli might have been part of this problem. He was always sensitive to poor line play, so being a bit older, having taken some beatings, it would only stand to reason that his effectiveness would drop heavily unless he had superior protection.
Superior protection that just isn't really available in the NFL anymore, and has been suspect for a few years now.
2001: Rich Suebert signed as an undrafted FA
2003: David Diehl drafted in the 5th round
2004: Sean Ohara, signed as FA from Cleveland ( originally an undrafted free agent )
2004: Chris Snee, drafted in the 2nd round
2005: Kareem Mckenzie, signed as a free agent ( originally drafted in the 3rd round )
Not 1 first round player in the group. The key to the whole line was scouting, chemistry, fit in an offensive system.
I understand that Reese was a scout and I believe he was in charge of college scouting at one time for NYG so he may have been involved in signing and scouting some of these players. Gettlemen was in charge of Pro Personnel and scouted current NFL players and may have has a hand in bringing in Ohara and Mckenzie. Either way, when Reese took over as GM, the selections of both college players and Pro O Line was poor. Beatty might have been the best of them all and that is saying a lot cause he wasn't very good.
Hopefully Gettlemen can bring back the O Line as a strength as it should be. More things will fall into place once this happens, until then, whom ever the NY Giants QB is will be running for his life.
It's the exact same thing McAdoo and Hue Jackson did the second they were out of a job. "I wanted Mahomes. I told them what I needed and they didnt listen." CYA mode. Call a spade a spade.
Not surprisingly, our first FA signings in his new tenure have failed.
Not surprisingly, our first FA signings in his new tenure have failed.
Actually, just the opposite. DG brought in good FA OL Ohara and McKenzie. Solder has been up and down and yes considering what was paid he should be playing better but there were not many options out there in terms of LT position. It was either sign Solder or keep Flowers there or give Wheeler a shot at the LT position.
Not surprisingly, our first FA signings in his new tenure have failed.
In what world were O'Hara and McKenzie bad offensive linemen?
So did Steve Young. Both, in my estimation, however humble, far superior qbs to Eli, and not even a particular knock on Eli thats how good those guys were.
Brett Favre was under 30.
Aaron Rodgers too. good chance he does not get another one.
Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Fran Takenton went ringless.
What would the description of what these organizations did to their qbs?
But somehow, it was 'criminal negligence, sabotage, etc' by the Giants Eli's window was not extended past 31 (which they did try to do repeatedly and simply failed, but for at least a few of these years he was part and parcel of the problem)......again, this reads like Mara turned into Jerry Reinsdorf and broke the Bulls up.
Is it unfortunate they did not extend their window with Eli? Yes, but this is a very common phenomenon as pointed out above and not so sure why its so noteworthy with Eli.
And we all know the o line sucks. Problems are much deeper than that factor alone.
Aaron Rodgers is still playing and they've fielded several competitive teams since he won that first Superbowl, including a 15 and 1 season.
Eli was 31, coming off an MVP level year, when the roster went to shit.
They failed. Why is this so hard to understand?
About
Eli.
It's about fielding a competitive team WHILE THEY HAD ELI (which all I hear around here is how important it is to have a franchise QB, how you can't win without one, etc....)
Well they had one! In his prime! And they f-cking wasted it!
Aaron Rodgers is still playing and they've fielded several competitive teams since he won that first Superbowl, including a 15 and 1 season.
Eli was 31, coming off an MVP level year, when the roster went to shit.
They failed. Why is this so hard to understand?
Plus, I don't know if the issue here is championships or just plain competitiveness. The roster in general has been pretty bad. I believe I pointed out that about 9-11 players drafted by Reese still on this roster since 2007. Having to go on several spending sprees to fix the mistakes of the past drafts, giving JPP all that money. This team can't compete right now because we can run the ball or pass block for more than 3 seconds.
Round 2: OL
Round 3: LB
Round 3: DL
Round 4: QB
Round 5: DL
Where do you see an emphasis on skill players there?
Not Barkley. Resigning Beckham more so. With regards to team building, I don’t think it’s beneficial to invest all that money into a WR off a major injury.
The team STILL does not have a viable starter at C, RG, or RT. LT looks like the bust of the decade. RG seems good.
On defense we are still waiting for a viable LB who would start on most teams. Tight end? I might be in my grave before the Giants get a viable starter at this position. Spare me with Engram I would call him a coach killer but he is not that good.
You could argue the whole line except LG still needs to be replaced. The Giants had a stone cold killer at QB who was fucking indestructible and they could not build even a mediocre roster. Then they scapegoated TC and brought in some mercenary D talent for a run. Too bad they gave that talent to McAdoo, I wish I could have seen Coughlin with that D. That was not a sustainable way to build a roster though and that team shot its load with the loss in Green Bay. Since then this team is the worst in the NFL. They have failed utterly with the hardest to replace piece on the roster. Now we are also playing find a coach since McAdoo crashed and burned and Shurmur is likely right behind him.
Failure is the word. Many years of prime Eli were wasted, how is this even debatable?
The team STILL does not have a viable starter at C, RG, or RT. LT looks like the bust of the decade. RG seems good.
On defense we are still waiting for a viable LB who would start on most teams. Tight end? I might be in my grave before the Giants get a viable starter at this position. Spare me with Engram I would call him a coach killer but he is not that good.
You could argue the whole line except LG still needs to be replaced. The Giants had a stone cold killer at QB who was fucking indestructible and they could not build even a mediocre roster. Then they scapegoated TC and brought in some mercenary D talent for a run. Too bad they gave that talent to McAdoo, I wish I could have seen Coughlin with that D. That was not a sustainable way to build a roster though and that team shot its load with the loss in Green Bay. Since then this team is the worst in the NFL. They have failed utterly with the hardest to replace piece on the roster. Now we are also playing find a coach since McAdoo crashed and burned and Shurmur is likely right behind him.
Failure is the word. Many years of prime Eli were wasted, how is this even debatable?
Rashad Jennings is the dancing RB you are referring to.
Between the roster being completely overhauled, a new offense, a new defense, a completely new offensive line, there are so many moving parts it is hard to find continuity. Our defense was without its best pass rusher in Vernon. Flowers was still on our O Line. No leadership.
There is much that needs improvement on the team.
they got two super bowls out of him. You continue to use caps and emotional arguments rather than grounding this with real examples. I aslo thought you were done with this thread?
Forget about the name eli. the giants had a good player a franchise qb and failed to continue a run which lasted 7 years and could have lasted 10.
Same thing has happened many times to many teams as I pointed out.
You seem to consider this some epic fail as do other people, which is in reality really not so much the case when considered with contextual examples.
But not because of some extra special disservice to any one player or a singular positional fail. Its several factors.
And when many teams like the Bears, Jets, Dolphins, Chargers (with a franchise qb), 49ers and others have had extended playoff sabaticals its not as if parity makes some period of sucking not commonplace. Again, Giants were very much due for this type of period. Its not an alibi but the plight of the ny giants fan is hardly something i'm feeling any genuine remorse for.
Sometimes I feel like this fan base never deserved Eli. Excuse me while I go throw up a little.
Lol@ the prick who said Eli "owes eternal gratitude" to a 32nd ranked defense that rode into the playoffs in Eli's backpack where he continued to carry the most mediocre team to ever win the super bowl.
Yeah, when the offensive line gets fixed, it will.
Whether it be Barkley, or the new QB. Fix the offensive line, fix the team.
dallas looks mediocre with a decent line so it’s much more than one unit.
Quote:
In comment 14166521 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
1. Peyton Manning, QB — $248.7 million.
2. Eli Manning, QB — $235.3 million. ...
3. Drew Brees, QB — $221.7 million. ...
4. Tom Brady, QB — $217.2 million. ...
5. Aaron Rodgers, QB — $204.0 million. ...
6. Philip Rivers, QB — $202.9 million. ...
7. Ben Roethlisberger, QB — $187.3 million. ...
Looks like he should be thanking the Giants to me. Tom Brady, on the other hand, should be livid.
Yea Tom Brady should be furious ...
Gisele net worth: $360 Million
+1 Brady reworked his contract several times often deferring money to enable the Pats to sign other players, easy to do when the wife is pulling in $50mil per year.
After that - they tried, plying high draft picks and FA resources into addressing the line, and failed, repeatedly.
That caused a revolving door around everyone but Eli. In that timeframe, everything else was changed, and the results remained the same.
I don't know why it's so difficult to accept that Eli might have been part of this problem. He was always sensitive to poor line play, so being a bit older, having taken some beatings, it would only stand to reason that his effectiveness would drop heavily unless he had superior protection.
Superior protection that just isn't really available in the NFL anymore, and has been suspect for a few years now.
Second is coaching. With Coughlin still on board, Eli thrived in a variation of the offense McAdoo brought. When McAdoo was in charge, bis offense morphed into a far mor.conservative and far more predictable version.
Now, Eli himself comes in at #3. After years of bad line play and bad coaching, combined with him now being 37, his play has finally started to erode. I would argue that prior to this season, that was not the case. I would also argue that with even an average OL he would do enough for us to win. But, we, again, have the worst OL in football arguably. It has caught up with Eli. We are now wasting the skill players we have, because there should be enough talent on O to score a decent amount of points each week.