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The #Indians are open to trading ace Corey Kluber. These teams might take the plunge -- including the #Yankees and #Mets -- writes @Buster_ESPN. #MLB #HotStove
absolutely love Kluber but can't see any way the Mets land him. The Indians are set up the middle with Lindor and Ramirez (Ramirez will almost certainly be moving back to 2b when Nolan Jones is ready) and Peter Alonso doesn't headline a deal for Kluber.
Why would they give up assets to acquire a pitcher that is on the downslope of his career? Especially when they have so many other holes elsewhere.
Hardly a "downslope" career high in innings, career best BB/9, FIP was actually lower than his 2016. Kluber barring injury is a Cy Young candidate for the next 2-3 seasons almost assuredly.
No chance Hicks or Didi are involved in a deal for Kluber. Didi is going to miss almost the entire season and his contract is almost up. Would make zero sense for Cleveland to take him.
Yanks can probably get it done with a package revolving around Frazier, Florial and Sheffield. Maybe another smaller piece. But I think it's possible to make it work without moving Andujar - but even if they do need to move Andujar, they can turn around and add Machado who is the better player anyway.
Game 2 of last year's ALDS, I was shocked at how ordinary his stuff looked from the first batter. Yanks are going to light him up, I thought, and they quickly.did.
Same thing Game 5. He was batting practice for Didi.
This year ALDS vs Astros: 3 HRs in 4.2 IP.
Very small sample but the lack of explanation for why he just didn't have it, at all, is troubling. Less than 4 innings a start? Seven home runs?
Seems as though he bullies bad lineups, of which there are a lot these days.
Game 2 of last year's ALDS, I was shocked at how ordinary his stuff looked from the first batter. Yanks are going to light him up, I thought, and they quickly.did.
Same thing Game 5. He was batting practice for Didi.
This year ALDS vs Astros: 3 HRs in 4.2 IP.
Very small sample but the lack of explanation for why he just didn't have it, at all, is troubling. Less than 4 innings a start? Seven home runs?
Seems as though he bullies bad lineups, of which there are a lot these days.
Career 2.51 era vs. the Yankees over 8 starts, only 4.43 vs. Boston but that comes with a 1.19 whip and 70 k's vs. 63 innings, 1.98 vs. the Dodgers, 1.17 vs. the Cubs
He pitched like an ace in 2016. The likely culprit, FWIW, is fatigue. He has led MLB in IP over the last five years, if I'm not mistaken, and has pitched deep into October the last three. Whether that makes him more attractive or less is debatable.
advocating either team sign him but Palmeiro... at 53 years old.. Indy ball or not .301/.424/.495 over 31 games played. One of his teammates was Angelo Gumbs!
is trying to rebuild on the fly, if anything Didi would be a net NEGATIVE in a deal for them. Taking on 2019 salary with zero on field benefit.
Not sure why anyone takes LL#10 seriously, at least not until he reveals his previous handle(s).
I think it's that he's so prolific that the people who don't follow handles end up giving him attention. Dude is an obvious dupe. Maybe a Denny knock off.
RE: This notion that Kluber can't pitch in the postseason is silly...
He pitched like an ace in 2016. The likely culprit, FWIW, is fatigue. He has led MLB in IP over the last five years, if I'm not mistaken, and has pitched deep into October the last three. Whether that makes him more attractive or less is debatable.
This makes me cautious about him. Same thing with Bumgarner. All those innings past age 30 (or in bumgarner's case approaching it) usually is not a good sign. Verlander is obv outlier.
Kris Bryant won the Rookie of the Year award in 2015, an MVP award the next season, and he will forever be remembered in Chicago for making the last play to clinch Game 7 of the Cubs' 2016 championship, grinning as he released the throw to first. At that time, it was easy to envision him spending his career with the franchise that had drafted him second overall in 2013.
But it's possible that the Cubs will trade him, perhaps as soon as this winter. As part of their early offseason discussions, sources say, the Cubs have indicated to other teams they are willing to discuss trade proposals for almost all of the players on their roster, including Bryant, who struggled in 2018, batting .272 with 13 homers in 102 games. Bryant went on the disabled list twice with left shoulder trouble.
I noted this in yesterday's post on the Yanks- the Indians are not having a fire sale here, this is about reconfiguring a roster that is pitching heavy and position player light- and with the added problem of some very large salaries to under performing players.
Remember that the Indians ran their highest payroll in their team history at $134M last year. If they make no moves this winter, they would have a payroll around $133M.
The Indians are probably asking teams to take on a bad salary together with a SP. One example, Encarnacion (and his $20M+ salary in 2019) with one of Kluber or Carrasco. Another would be to add Kipnis (owed a ton of money, though only counts for about $8M in luxury tax) plus one of the SP.
The Indians only real position player building blocks are Lindor and Ramirez. They have a pretty solid rotation, though the bullpen was a disaster last year. They have a closer in Brad Hand.
The Indians probably want to add 2-3 position guys in a trade, as well as dumping between $15-30M in salary, depending on who is in the trade. However, in general, when a team asks the other to take on salary, they have to cut their prospect ask.
This is a long way of saying that the Yanks are going to have to offer "ML ready now or soon" position guys, and maybe some cheap bullpen arms in any deal.
One example- Kipnis and Kluber for Frazier, Florial, Loiasiga and two wild card prospects at the upper levels- guys like Swanson, Harvey, Estrada, etc. In this deal, the Indians get some financial relief, but get a nice return of prospects.
Another example, Encarnacion and Kluber for Frazier, Loaisiga and two upper level prospects. The reason that the Indians would get less in this one is that the Yanks would be taking on a HUGE salary in Encarnacion with no real salary off-set. The Indians would clear nearly $30M in payroll, get an OF and SP/bullpen arm now and two possibility guys in the deal. In that way, they can shop the low cost FA market and try to be competitive in 2019 and then use the FA saving in 2020 to compete with a young core of position players.
the Yankees may be. Makes a lot more sense for NYY. Doesn't mean they'll do it, the ask is said to be astronomical, just that it makes more sense for them to go for it.
I just don't know why we would want to give up assets for a 33 year old pitcher. Starting pitching is not a weakness for the Mets right now.
It's not happening but the idea would be having such a dominant rotation that the offense would only have to be X good. The Mets with DeGrom, Kluber, Thor, Wheeler, Matz would have the best rotation in baseball and a dangerous team with even "okay" offensive additions.
Wheeler had a nice year, but there's no chance in hell he would ever slot ahead of Corey Kluber in a rotation.
Maybe you don't realize this because you switched your lifelong team fandom by this time and became a fan of a new team, but Wheeler 2nd half was right there with deGrom for best pitcher in baseball.
So, no chance in hell? I'm not so sure about that if, like I said, Wheeler pitches like he did 2nd half 2018.
And even if Kluber does pitch ahead of him in the rotation, it doesn't matter, the Mets are basically looking for a #3 at best, but possibly a #4 starter.
Which to my point, is why I would not give up significant assets from the Mets for Kluber.
Let me know when Zack Wheeler has an 8+ WAR season or wins one Cy Young let alone two.
Wheeler isn't a wart on Kluber's ass right now. One half season doesn't change that. Kluber has done a hell of a lot more than pitch one good half season.
in the past, but what you're projected to do going forward.
Kershaw would be the Mets 4th starter too, if Wheeler pitches in 2019 like he did the 2nd half of 2018, just like Kluber would be and Kershaw has a better resume than just about any pitcher in baseball.
I know you feel like you need to get emotional and trash the Mets, but Syndergaard career FIP 2.66 and he's 26 years old, Kluber career FIP 2.96 and he's 33 before next season, so past accolades and emotion aside, facts don't support your argument. Best you could argue is switching leagues would help Kluber, but his velo took a significant hit in the 2nd half of 2018 and that would concern me.
All I'm saying is the idea that Kluber would be a #4 starter basically anywhere is a joke. He's a two time Cy Young award winner and he's been one of the best pitches in baseball over the past 5 years or so.
Wheeler was great in the 2nd half of last year. No team in baseball is slotting him ahead of Kluber going into next year. Kluber still had the better season overall.
If the Mets offered up Wheeler now, do you think teams would be calling with offers anywhere near what they're going to send Cleveland for Kluber?
I don't.
Kluber has been there and done it. He's not a projection like Thor who still hasn't thrown 200 innings in a a season yet and has to prove he can do that consistently. His stuff is fantastic, but his stuff doesn't matter if he's throwing ~50 fewer innings than the guys we're comparing him to.
Kluber's average 4 seamer was 92.7 mph in 2017 and was 92.1 in 2018. His velocity isn't his bread and butter and there's barely any difference there anyway. He wasn't injured last year. Fatigued, maybe - he led the AL in IP.
I'd have more concern over a 28 year old pitcher who has already missed two entire seasons due to injury and has been wildly inconsistent thus far.
It would be risky to assume Zack Wheeler is now a sub-2 ERA pitcher on Jacob deGrom's level because he had an outstanding 2nd half to one season.
Sorry for getting you bent out of shape by merely disagreeing with a point you made.
I thought my snarky comment was more funny than snarky or it was meant to be and I thought you would have a sense of humor about being a Yankees fan. I didn't think you would be so sensitive and maybe my comment triggered you. I mean no offense.
either way, you are wholly missing my main point and arguing semantics, the Mets do not have a need for TOR starting pitching. You can slot the starting pitchers however you want, I slot them one way, you can feel free to slot them your own.
It's an opinion and not primarily relevant to my point.
My point is it does not make sense for the Mets to give up the premium assets it would cost to acquire Kluber when they can achieve rotation depth and protect their strength with any number of free agents.
Thor and deGrom are both unquestioned TOR starters and whatever his past has been is irrelevant to the Mets or even other teams, he's not being traded (in my example) so it Wheeler pitches in 2019 like he did 2nd half of 2018 they have three legit TOR starters. The Mets could use rotation depth and protection for their strength (starting pitching).
Which is why I would not acquire Kluber if I were the Mets.
Yes, I would agree that it makes little sense for NYM to make a move for Kluber - it would probably clean out the system or make it even weaker.
That said - a rotation of deGrom, Kluber, Thor, Wheeler would theoretically turn a strength into a massive advantage - even if Colon was the 5th starter.
But, I guess after what happened to Jake this past year, that's probably not an ideal strategy and it would be wiser to use assets elsewhere.
Anyway, it's all good - not looking to argue and I have nothing against the Mets and have no need to trash them. I'd like to see them turn it around for the sake of all the fans who actually HAVE stuck this out - unlike myself. :)
"Just had a nice second half". Any Mets fan knows it took him a month or so into the season before the light bulb finally really went on and everything "clicked" but slow start be damned, he was still the 18th best starting pitcher in all of baseball, period. Over guys like Kershaw, Kuechel, and Greinke. His entire 2018 ended up excellent.
On merit Kluber would certainly slot ahead of Wheeler heading into 2018 and he is still coming off the better season, but from the time Wheeler's light bulb went on through the end of the season, Wheeler was likely the most dominant starter in baseball not named deGrom. They were practically carbon copies of each other twice every 5 days over a pretty large sample.
However you want to look at Kluber vs Wheeler, trading for Kluber
As awesome as it would be to have 4 aces and a 5th starter coming off a season with a ERA in the 3's, we need offense and bullpen work. All the pitching in the world means nothing if you cant score as we saw in both May and June of last season.
I watched Luis Severino essentially do the same thing in opposite order. Absolutely dominant first half, and then struggled mightily in the 2nd half. I think most of it was pitch tipping - but still. Like Wheeler, it was a tale of two halves for Sevy.
That's the only reason I'm saying I'd need to see more before I just assume this is what Wheeler is now.
Maybe Wheeler really is a sub-2 ERA pitcher now and is an elite, TOR starter on Jacob deGrom's level.
Considering his erratic past and injury history, I'm just hesitant to say "well, Wheeler figured it out - he's an elite SP now" - but maybe he's finally putting it all together.
I'd be saying the same things even if I was on the other side of the fence still. I'm not discrediting him, I'd just be wary of penciling him in as the guy he was in the 2nd half of this past season.
deGrom is different. I'd be confident in him continuing to be as dominant as he was in 2018 as long as he stays healthy because there's more of a history of deGrom pitching at an elite level. Certainly nothing against Wheeler at all.
with his injury past, and even when healthy at times he didn't have it all together.
plus, don't forget he began last year in the minors.
but...he was a top prospect for a reason, and his second half is undeniable. When you string together a few good starts, even for a month that's one thing, but he was electric all second half. Not meaning that indicates that's what he'll be consistently going forward though.
but, speaking for myself, all my comments were prefaced with...."if Wheeler pitches like second half of 2018..."
but even if he doesn't I still would not give up the price for Kluber if I am the Mets.
Wheeler if it happened in reverse. This has been a natural progression for him. He's a top 10 prospect in all of baseball billed as a guy with future ace potential in the minors at what point. He gets called up in 2013 for about a half a season and finishes with a 3.93 ERA/4.17 FIP as a rookie, comes back the next year and in his first full season ever in the majors improves off that to a tune of a 3.5 ERA and 3.5 FIP. We all know what happened after that. Tommy John the next spring training in which he missed the next 2.5 years. 2018 was his first full healthy season back since 2014 (a good season at the time). I just feel like aside from his main Tommy John injury (and setback from it) he's been moving forward to this the entire time.
And maybe its semantics but Im really sick and tired of people calling it a good " second half" too. From May 22nd through the rest of the year Wheeler had a 2.62 ERA and 2.88 FIP. He had a damn near great final 20 weeks, not 3 months.
Wheeler if it happened in reverse. This has been a natural progression for him. He's a top 10 prospect in all of baseball billed as a guy with future ace potential in the minors at what point. He gets called up in 2013 for about a half a season and finishes with a 3.93 ERA/4.17 FIP as a rookie, comes back the next year and in his first full season ever in the majors improves off that to a tune of a 3.5 ERA and 3.5 FIP. We all know what happened after that. Tommy John the next spring training in which he missed the next 2.5 years. 2018 was his first full healthy season back since 2014 (a good season at the time). I just feel like aside from his main Tommy John injury (and setback from it) he's been moving forward to this the entire time.
And maybe its semantics but Im really sick and tired of people calling it a good " second half" too. From May 22nd through the rest of the year Wheeler had a 2.62 ERA and 2.88 FIP. He had a damn near great final 20 weeks, not 3 months.
Good post. As you pointed out, looking at Wheeler's progression since coming back from TJ, while no one can be sure, it appears likely that he's the real deal. But even if he wasn't, starting pitching still wouldn't be the Mets biggest need. In that case, Kluber would be a nice get, but their needs in the bullpen, catcher etc are still much more important.
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers.
In comment 14171037 Ryan in Albany said:
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers. [/quote
If they are asking for both, no way would I do it.
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers.
Its all a game right now- teams ask for the moon, the other offers used tires. Then, the argue over some price somewhere in between.
I suspect that any deal MUST include one, plus some nice extra pieces, depending on the Indians scouts view of the Yanks minor leaguers.
While the Yanks made some trades and called up some players at the end of the season, they still have some hard choices to make protecting prospects from the Rule 5 draft.
There might be a real chance that some of the early interest by the Yanks could be based on the idea that they want to engage in future roster construction prep work now. In other words, guys like Florial don't need to be added to the 40 this off-season, but will next year.
The Yanks might decide that it makes more sense to move some of those guys for multi-year pieces and make next winter's job easier. In the same way, you can move of the guys on the bubble this winter as the secondary pieces in the deal.
For example, they could package Florial, Abreu, Swanson in a deal with another key piece and remove 2 guys from next year's rule 5 pool and one from this year's.
If they are going to trade prospects, it better be for a catcher or middle of the order right handed bat.
How is he on the downslope of his career?
He just won the Cy Young in 2017.
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Why would they give up assets to acquire a pitcher that is on the downslope of his career? Especially when they have so many other holes elsewhere.
How is he on the downslope of his career?
He just won the Cy Young in 2017.
Because he didn't win it in 2018. Duh
Hardly a "downslope" career high in innings, career best BB/9, FIP was actually lower than his 2016. Kluber barring injury is a Cy Young candidate for the next 2-3 seasons almost assuredly.
Legit ace and only five 200+ inning seasons which is low for a 32 year old pitcher of his caliber.
They'll be better by promoting Alonso and shoring up the catcher position.
Sooner give up Hicks/Didi though idk if you can trade injured players?
Yanks can probably get it done with a package revolving around Frazier, Florial and Sheffield. Maybe another smaller piece. But I think it's possible to make it work without moving Andujar - but even if they do need to move Andujar, they can turn around and add Machado who is the better player anyway.
Game 2 of last year's ALDS, I was shocked at how ordinary his stuff looked from the first batter. Yanks are going to light him up, I thought, and they quickly.did.
Same thing Game 5. He was batting practice for Didi.
This year ALDS vs Astros: 3 HRs in 4.2 IP.
Very small sample but the lack of explanation for why he just didn't have it, at all, is troubling. Less than 4 innings a start? Seven home runs?
Seems as though he bullies bad lineups, of which there are a lot these days.
Game 2 of last year's ALDS, I was shocked at how ordinary his stuff looked from the first batter. Yanks are going to light him up, I thought, and they quickly.did.
Same thing Game 5. He was batting practice for Didi.
This year ALDS vs Astros: 3 HRs in 4.2 IP.
Very small sample but the lack of explanation for why he just didn't have it, at all, is troubling. Less than 4 innings a start? Seven home runs?
Seems as though he bullies bad lineups, of which there are a lot these days.
Career 2.51 era vs. the Yankees over 8 starts, only 4.43 vs. Boston but that comes with a 1.19 whip and 70 k's vs. 63 innings, 1.98 vs. the Dodgers, 1.17 vs. the Cubs
However, I know to get an ace pitcher, you absolutely need to give up young pitching too. Wish we could make it happen without him.
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Why would they give up assets to acquire a pitcher that is on the downslope of his career? Especially when they have so many other holes elsewhere.
How is he on the downslope of his career?
He just won the Cy Young in 2017.
and is in the running again this year for the CY Young!
Not sure why anyone takes LL#10 seriously, at least not until he reveals his previous handle(s).
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is trying to rebuild on the fly, if anything Didi would be a net NEGATIVE in a deal for them. Taking on 2019 salary with zero on field benefit.
Not sure why anyone takes LL#10 seriously, at least not until he reveals his previous handle(s).
I think it's that he's so prolific that the people who don't follow handles end up giving him attention. Dude is an obvious dupe. Maybe a Denny knock off.
This makes me cautious about him. Same thing with Bumgarner. All those innings past age 30 (or in bumgarner's case approaching it) usually is not a good sign. Verlander is obv outlier.
However, I know to get an ace pitcher, you absolutely need to give up young pitching too. Wish we could make it happen without him.
you need to pray harder - quickly
They'll be better by promoting Alonso and shoring up the catcher position.
+1 the mets are in no position to give up assets, besides pitching they don't really have any.
But it's possible that the Cubs will trade him, perhaps as soon as this winter. As part of their early offseason discussions, sources say, the Cubs have indicated to other teams they are willing to discuss trade proposals for almost all of the players on their roster, including Bryant, who struggled in 2018, batting .272 with 13 homers in 102 games. Bryant went on the disabled list twice with left shoulder trouble.
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I would pray the Yankees do not trade him away. I am ok with trading away some of the field players, but would have to give up on Sheffield.
However, I know to get an ace pitcher, you absolutely need to give up young pitching too. Wish we could make it happen without him.
you need to pray harder - quickly
Have you heard something? If youre saying this, Im guessing youve hearing something about Paxton?
I noted this in yesterday's post on the Yanks- the Indians are not having a fire sale here, this is about reconfiguring a roster that is pitching heavy and position player light- and with the added problem of some very large salaries to under performing players.
Remember that the Indians ran their highest payroll in their team history at $134M last year. If they make no moves this winter, they would have a payroll around $133M.
The Indians are probably asking teams to take on a bad salary together with a SP. One example, Encarnacion (and his $20M+ salary in 2019) with one of Kluber or Carrasco. Another would be to add Kipnis (owed a ton of money, though only counts for about $8M in luxury tax) plus one of the SP.
The Indians only real position player building blocks are Lindor and Ramirez. They have a pretty solid rotation, though the bullpen was a disaster last year. They have a closer in Brad Hand.
The Indians probably want to add 2-3 position guys in a trade, as well as dumping between $15-30M in salary, depending on who is in the trade. However, in general, when a team asks the other to take on salary, they have to cut their prospect ask.
This is a long way of saying that the Yanks are going to have to offer "ML ready now or soon" position guys, and maybe some cheap bullpen arms in any deal.
One example- Kipnis and Kluber for Frazier, Florial, Loiasiga and two wild card prospects at the upper levels- guys like Swanson, Harvey, Estrada, etc. In this deal, the Indians get some financial relief, but get a nice return of prospects.
Another example, Encarnacion and Kluber for Frazier, Loaisiga and two upper level prospects. The reason that the Indians would get less in this one is that the Yanks would be taking on a HUGE salary in Encarnacion with no real salary off-set. The Indians would clear nearly $30M in payroll, get an OF and SP/bullpen arm now and two possibility guys in the deal. In that way, they can shop the low cost FA market and try to be competitive in 2019 and then use the FA saving in 2020 to compete with a young core of position players.
It's not happening but the idea would be having such a dominant rotation that the offense would only have to be X good. The Mets with DeGrom, Kluber, Thor, Wheeler, Matz would have the best rotation in baseball and a dangerous team with even "okay" offensive additions.
another lefty to slot in between deGrom, Thor, and Wheeler along with Matz to keep lineups off balance would be nice.
At this point for the Mets Kluber or Keuchel would be the 4th starter if Wheeler is 2nd half of 2018 Wheeler 3rd starter if he's not.
Wheeler had a nice year, but there's no chance in hell he would ever slot ahead of Corey Kluber in a rotation.
Wheeler had a nice year, but there's no chance in hell he would ever slot ahead of Corey Kluber in a rotation.
Maybe you don't realize this because you switched your lifelong team fandom by this time and became a fan of a new team, but Wheeler 2nd half was right there with deGrom for best pitcher in baseball.
So, no chance in hell? I'm not so sure about that if, like I said, Wheeler pitches like he did 2nd half 2018.
And even if Kluber does pitch ahead of him in the rotation, it doesn't matter, the Mets are basically looking for a #3 at best, but possibly a #4 starter.
Which to my point, is why I would not give up significant assets from the Mets for Kluber.
Let me know when Zack Wheeler has an 8+ WAR season or wins one Cy Young let alone two.
Wheeler isn't a wart on Kluber's ass right now. One half season doesn't change that. Kluber has done a hell of a lot more than pitch one good half season.
Kershaw would be the Mets 4th starter too, if Wheeler pitches in 2019 like he did the 2nd half of 2018, just like Kluber would be and Kershaw has a better resume than just about any pitcher in baseball.
I know you feel like you need to get emotional and trash the Mets, but Syndergaard career FIP 2.66 and he's 26 years old, Kluber career FIP 2.96 and he's 33 before next season, so past accolades and emotion aside, facts don't support your argument. Best you could argue is switching leagues would help Kluber, but his velo took a significant hit in the 2nd half of 2018 and that would concern me.
Just a little defensive... ?
All I'm saying is the idea that Kluber would be a #4 starter basically anywhere is a joke. He's a two time Cy Young award winner and he's been one of the best pitches in baseball over the past 5 years or so.
Wheeler was great in the 2nd half of last year. No team in baseball is slotting him ahead of Kluber going into next year. Kluber still had the better season overall.
If the Mets offered up Wheeler now, do you think teams would be calling with offers anywhere near what they're going to send Cleveland for Kluber?
I don't.
Kluber has been there and done it. He's not a projection like Thor who still hasn't thrown 200 innings in a a season yet and has to prove he can do that consistently. His stuff is fantastic, but his stuff doesn't matter if he's throwing ~50 fewer innings than the guys we're comparing him to.
Kluber's average 4 seamer was 92.7 mph in 2017 and was 92.1 in 2018. His velocity isn't his bread and butter and there's barely any difference there anyway. He wasn't injured last year. Fatigued, maybe - he led the AL in IP.
I'd have more concern over a 28 year old pitcher who has already missed two entire seasons due to injury and has been wildly inconsistent thus far.
It would be risky to assume Zack Wheeler is now a sub-2 ERA pitcher on Jacob deGrom's level because he had an outstanding 2nd half to one season.
Sorry for getting you bent out of shape by merely disagreeing with a point you made.
either way, you are wholly missing my main point and arguing semantics, the Mets do not have a need for TOR starting pitching. You can slot the starting pitchers however you want, I slot them one way, you can feel free to slot them your own.
It's an opinion and not primarily relevant to my point.
My point is it does not make sense for the Mets to give up the premium assets it would cost to acquire Kluber when they can achieve rotation depth and protect their strength with any number of free agents.
Thor and deGrom are both unquestioned TOR starters and whatever his past has been is irrelevant to the Mets or even other teams, he's not being traded (in my example) so it Wheeler pitches in 2019 like he did 2nd half of 2018 they have three legit TOR starters. The Mets could use rotation depth and protection for their strength (starting pitching).
Which is why I would not acquire Kluber if I were the Mets.
That said - a rotation of deGrom, Kluber, Thor, Wheeler would theoretically turn a strength into a massive advantage - even if Colon was the 5th starter.
But, I guess after what happened to Jake this past year, that's probably not an ideal strategy and it would be wiser to use assets elsewhere.
Anyway, it's all good - not looking to argue and I have nothing against the Mets and have no need to trash them. I'd like to see them turn it around for the sake of all the fans who actually HAVE stuck this out - unlike myself. :)
That's the only reason I'm saying I'd need to see more before I just assume this is what Wheeler is now.
Maybe Wheeler really is a sub-2 ERA pitcher now and is an elite, TOR starter on Jacob deGrom's level.
Considering his erratic past and injury history, I'm just hesitant to say "well, Wheeler figured it out - he's an elite SP now" - but maybe he's finally putting it all together.
I'd be saying the same things even if I was on the other side of the fence still. I'm not discrediting him, I'd just be wary of penciling him in as the guy he was in the 2nd half of this past season.
deGrom is different. I'd be confident in him continuing to be as dominant as he was in 2018 as long as he stays healthy because there's more of a history of deGrom pitching at an elite level. Certainly nothing against Wheeler at all.
plus, don't forget he began last year in the minors.
but...he was a top prospect for a reason, and his second half is undeniable. When you string together a few good starts, even for a month that's one thing, but he was electric all second half. Not meaning that indicates that's what he'll be consistently going forward though.
but, speaking for myself, all my comments were prefaced with...."if Wheeler pitches like second half of 2018..."
but even if he doesn't I still would not give up the price for Kluber if I am the Mets.
And maybe its semantics but Im really sick and tired of people calling it a good " second half" too. From May 22nd through the rest of the year Wheeler had a 2.62 ERA and 2.88 FIP. He had a damn near great final 20 weeks, not 3 months.
And maybe its semantics but Im really sick and tired of people calling it a good " second half" too. From May 22nd through the rest of the year Wheeler had a 2.62 ERA and 2.88 FIP. He had a damn near great final 20 weeks, not 3 months.
Good post. As you pointed out, looking at Wheeler's progression since coming back from TJ, while no one can be sure, it appears likely that he's the real deal. But even if he wasn't, starting pitching still wouldn't be the Mets biggest need. In that case, Kluber would be a nice get, but their needs in the bullpen, catcher etc are still much more important.
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers.
[quote] Max Wildstein
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers. [/quote
If they are asking for both, no way would I do it.
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The #Indians asking price for Carlos Carrasco has also been pretty high. Theyve asked the #Yankees about Justus Sheffield and Estevan Florial in talks for Carrasco, per source, as they are rightfully shooting for moon with their two available starting pitchers.
Its all a game right now- teams ask for the moon, the other offers used tires. Then, the argue over some price somewhere in between.
I suspect that any deal MUST include one, plus some nice extra pieces, depending on the Indians scouts view of the Yanks minor leaguers.
There might be a real chance that some of the early interest by the Yanks could be based on the idea that they want to engage in future roster construction prep work now. In other words, guys like Florial don't need to be added to the 40 this off-season, but will next year.
The Yanks might decide that it makes more sense to move some of those guys for multi-year pieces and make next winter's job easier. In the same way, you can move of the guys on the bubble this winter as the secondary pieces in the deal.
For example, they could package Florial, Abreu, Swanson in a deal with another key piece and remove 2 guys from next year's rule 5 pool and one from this year's.