What made the Reese/Ross tenure so god-awful was not only their well-documented draft misses on the OL and their complete ignorance of the LB position, but the fact that a GM whose most famous mantra was "you can never have enough pass rushers" left us with a defense that routinely gives opposing QBs all day to throw and makes pedestrian QBs look like all-pros because of the total lack of pass rush. I'm glad the Giants won, but watching Mullens go unmolested all night and consistently have time to pick apart the back seven was maddening to watch.
Add a pass rush to the many things this team needs to address in the off-season (although I do think Lorenzo Carter has a lot of potential).
Wow.
Reese's Read
"We got another pass rusher; you can never have enough pass rushers. He plays hard, he is smart. It is all in front of him. When this guy gets stronger he is going to be a really, really good player." – Giants director of player personnel Jerry Reese
It's perfectly in line with how this season has gone that JPP himself has 8 sacks while this team has 10 combined.
Other than 2011, JPP was a way overrated pass rusher. Does anyone else remember him having a single pass-rush move, ever, other than simply playing patty-cake with the OT and slowly moving him back? After 2011, he would get his numbers up by feasting on a few subpar lines, but when I'd look for him in big games he'd basically be invisible.
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Mathias Kiwanuka
Reese's Read
"We got another pass rusher; you can never have enough pass rushers. He plays hard, he is smart. It is all in front of him. When this guy gets stronger he is going to be a really, really good player." – Giants director of player personnel Jerry Reese
Oh. Well how do you feel about Kennard and Okwara, two reese picks, having good seasons after being shown the door here by the new GM.
Kinda throws a wrench in the whole "he left us with nothing" thing.
This Giants defense with the game on the line, in situations where opponent is in 4 down territory, will not get a stop most of the time.
Even last night, against a quarterback making his second start, 56 seconds left and only one time out, which they lost to penalty, Giants had to survive a last play legitimate chance to score.
Is it really overrated though? Are there fans that thought this would be a good pass rushing unit? Other than Go Terps who obviously loves Vernon!
I'm in the group that wouldn't be shocked to see them grab an edge rusher with their #1 pick in 2019 if they don't love any of the QBs. BBI might seriously explode if that happens!
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Mathias Kiwanuka
Reese's Read
"We got another pass rusher; you can never have enough pass rushers. He plays hard, he is smart. It is all in front of him. When this guy gets stronger he is going to be a really, really good player." – Giants director of player personnel Jerry Reese
And he learned this, from Ernie Accorsi. I'm feeling lazy, otherwise I'd Google one of countless Accorsi quotes on the importance of having multiple pass rushers.
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Mathias Kiwanuka
Reese's Read
"We got another pass rusher; you can never have enough pass rushers. He plays hard, he is smart. It is all in front of him. When this guy gets stronger he is going to be a really, really good player." – Giants director of player personnel Jerry Reese
Oh. Well how do you feel about Kennard and Okwara, two reese picks, having good seasons after being shown the door here by the new GM.
Kinda throws a wrench in the whole "he left us with nothing" thing.
I agree that it was a mistake to let Okwara go, but Kennard was not really much of a pass rushing factor while he was here.
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In comment 14175745 lawguy9801 said:
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Mathias Kiwanuka
Reese's Read
"We got another pass rusher; you can never have enough pass rushers. He plays hard, he is smart. It is all in front of him. When this guy gets stronger he is going to be a really, really good player." – Giants director of player personnel Jerry Reese
Oh. Well how do you feel about Kennard and Okwara, two reese picks, having good seasons after being shown the door here by the new GM.
Kinda throws a wrench in the whole "he left us with nothing" thing.
I agree that it was a mistake to let Okwara go, but Kennard was not really much of a pass rushing factor while he was here.
We've got people who earn a lot of money who's job is to try to project the performance of players.
This team has 10 sacks in 2018. Ex-Giants playing for other teams in 2018 have 18.
Okwara - I would've kept him over Wynn as I think they're similarly skilled with Okwara having a slightly higher ceiling, but he's not as stout against the run and likely was a casualty of the switch to the 34.
As much as we all want to bitch about a lot of other things, many rightfully so, the shitty football we have watched for the last 5 years basically comes down to Tuck/Osi/Snee/Diehl/McKenzie/Ohara moving on and still not being replaced to this day. Every last minute loss where 1 sack would have made the difference. Every 3rd and short or goaline play we could just hand to a running back.
“It’s my philosophy, and shared by people in this organization, you never, ever have enough pass rushers,” GM Ernie Accorsi said. “They are like home run hitters and pitchers. You just never have enough of them.”
Link - ( New Window )
You know that short yardage was actually the weakness of that line, right?
He is an average LB/DE, that makes an occasional play....how many times does he take himself out of the play going inside and the run goes around him? How many times is he easily blocked by a TE, and the run goes around him?
It looks like he is just going through the motions out there.....the second highest paid player on this team.....
Wow.
Osi had 6 in one game one year and the Giants had 12 for the game.
And, we clear that ridiculous contract off our books after this year.
LOL!
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Every 3rd and short or goaline play we could just hand to a running back.
You know that short yardage was actually the weakness of that line, right?
Not relative to what we've seen lately. Outside of 2008 the running game wasn't bulldozing anyone but it was competent. If we looked back at it I'd guess statistically they were league average in short yardage even though it wasn't a strength. Also the backs played a role in some of that weakness, Bradshaw was a pretty good short yardage back and Jacobs was hit or miss. I'd guess the numbers reflect that but that's just a guess.
I have no illusions that things were all rosy back then - "the green zone" was also a problem throughout Coughlin's tenure - but they weren't dead last in those categories the way they have been most of the last 3-5 years.
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Just asking.
It's perfectly in line with how this season has gone that JPP himself has 8 sacks while this team has 10 combined.
And JPP plays on the worst defense in the league.
Dumping his salary was the right move. Vernon should be next.
If Joey Bosa is as good as advertised and he's there when the Giants pick, you have to give serious consideration picking him. The 2019 QB class seems to be poor relative to 2020. I'd be fine again not reaching for a QB in round 1 in 2019 (however, if a "high probability franchise QB" is there and a toss up as BPA with a non-QB, you have to grab the QB).
To me - biggest impact that would improve this team would be a pass rush. If they had twice the number of sacks they had I would guess they would be close to 500. Can't get off the field. Offense has to be to perfect.
The lack of pass rush makes it hard to watch the other issues on defense.
I give them credit for holding SF to FGs....
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but the pass rush is a huge eyesore I warned about before the season began. Overrated group by fans, and I'm focusing on edge rushers high in the next draft along with the QBs.
Is it really overrated though? Are there fans that thought this would be a good pass rushing unit? Other than Go Terps who obviously loves Vernon!
I'm in the group that wouldn't be shocked to see them grab an edge rusher with their #1 pick in 2019 if they don't love any of the QBs. BBI might seriously explode if that happens!
Going by his tenure in Arizona where he did a lot without a bunch of big names, I thought Bettcher would manufacture a decent (i.e league average) amount of sacks and pass rush. But it's just not happened.
And, we clear that ridiculous contract off our books after this year.
And you left out that with the third rounder we get Hill on a rookie contract which might have helped DG move Snacks as he was a luxury.
I agree with that, they weren't a unit without weaknesses even though their weaknesses were probably still better than what we've watched recently - but that has very little bearing on the fact that the inability to replace them is one of the foremost reasons we've watched shitty football for the past 6 years. Which was the point of the post. Reese oversaw the degradation of both trenches, the process started when those guys started retiring 6-7 seasons ago, and we are still paying the price today. Is there a bigger takeaway from the Reese era than incompetence in the trenches?
Wasn't Okwara playing OLB during camp/preseason? My read was that they didn't feel he was stout enough to be a 34 DE and likely not athletic enough in space for OLB.
If Joey Bosa is as good as advertised and he's there when the Giants pick, you have to give serious consideration picking him. The 2019 QB class seems to be poor relative to 2020. I'd be fine again not reaching for a QB in round 1 in 2019 (however, if a "high probability franchise QB" is there and a toss up as BPA with a non-QB, you have to grab the QB).
BPA. We have so many holes on the roster that we need blue chip talent. Top 3 - I would think Bosa satisfies the BPA. Pick 5-10 - Greedy Williams will shore up a secondary where Jenkins is done. And of course, the glaring need at RT where Jonah Williams is a day 1 starter. I get it that QB will be needed. But if we can get 1 of those 3 and let Eli/Kyle play in 2019, we still can get our QB in 2020 (Tua).
Weren't the 6 sacks against Winston?
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Weren't the 6 sacks against Winston?
It was.
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Just asking.
Other than 2011, JPP was a way overrated pass rusher. Does anyone else remember him having a single pass-rush move, ever, other than simply playing patty-cake with the OT and slowly moving him back? After 2011, he would get his numbers up by feasting on a few subpar lines, but when I'd look for him in big games he'd basically be invisible.
He never reached that 2011 level, but man was that a high level. He was playing at an elite special level. I'll remember that blocked kick the rest of my life. Saved the season...
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In comment 14175741 Greg from LI said:
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Just asking.
It's perfectly in line with how this season has gone that JPP himself has 8 sacks while this team has 10 combined.
And JPP plays on the worst defense in the league.
Dumping his salary was the right move. Vernon should be next.
What does the defense he plays on have to do with anything though. No one is trying to suggest he by himself should be expected to carry a defense on his shoulders because no single defensive player in the entire sport can do that.
Wow.
That is amazing and shows how hard it is to win in this league without a consistent pass rush, hence 2-7.
What annoys me about BBI is how a simple statement like the OP makes turns into a useless argument over who was right about who. Whether it was Reese saying something pass rushers or letting JPP go was the right move. None of that changes the situation on this team now, they need a pass rush NOW and where is it going to come from.
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but the pass rush is a huge eyesore I warned about before the season began. Overrated group by fans, and I'm focusing on edge rushers high in the next draft along with the QBs.
They have the extra picks now to grab the edge rusher first then move up for one of the QBS say Daniel Jones , Will Grier
Is it really overrated though? Are there fans that thought this would be a good pass rushing unit? Other than Go Terps who obviously loves Vernon!
I'm in the group that wouldn't be shocked to see them grab an edge rusher with their #1 pick in 2019 if they don't love any of the QBs. BBI might seriously explode if that happens!
Wow.
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In comment 14175748 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14175741 Greg from LI said:
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Just asking.
It's perfectly in line with how this season has gone that JPP himself has 8 sacks while this team has 10 combined.
And JPP plays on the worst defense in the league.
Dumping his salary was the right move. Vernon should be next.
What does the defense he plays on have to do with anything though. No one is trying to suggest he by himself should be expected to carry a defense on his shoulders because no single defensive player in the entire sport can do that.
On paper their front four should be very good but their defense is giving up points by the truckload.
He’s not an impact player. 8 empty sacks wouldn’t help this team.
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but the pass rush is a huge eyesore I warned about before the season began. Overrated group by fans, and I'm focusing on edge rushers high in the next draft along with the QBs.
Is it really overrated though? Are there fans that thought this would be a good pass rushing unit? Other than Go Terps who obviously loves Vernon!
I'm in the group that wouldn't be shocked to see them grab an edge rusher with their #1 pick in 2019 if they don't love any of the QBs. BBI might seriously explode if that happens!
A healthy majority of this forum believe the switch to the 3-4 and the new toys added to the roster would fuel the pass rush.
Right now the Gmen have OBJ and SB that are great but unable to impact the game. You have to take advantage of their talents. They are among the best in the league at what they do. You have to try to maximize what they are. Each year you don't get the QB and OL - is a year wasting OBJ and SB's talents.
The Gmen select a pass rusher in rd 1 and he gets double teamed etc -- then what?
The Gmen have tow superstars that we know. You draft that pass rusher and he doesn't produce that much you kill another year of greatness between OBJ and SB. On the flip side OBJ and SB don't need a lot. They just decent-to-good at QB and the OL-- then they WILL consistently produce.
Still a long ways from being a title challenger. Very long. But you start by giving opportunities to your two KNOWN superstars.
If you draft that pass rusher-- he HAS TO BE SUPER. He can't be "just pretty good."
Get two of each rather than the one.
Our guys looked pathetic vs San Fran...
Our guys looked pathetic vs San Fran...
Yeah, great point.
The hell with gap integrity. Rush the QB at all costs! They'll never run the ball!
We got a regular Jimmy Lombardi over here.
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In comment 14175850 WillVAB said:
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In comment 14175748 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14175741 Greg from LI said:
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Just asking.
It's perfectly in line with how this season has gone that JPP himself has 8 sacks while this team has 10 combined.
And JPP plays on the worst defense in the league.
Dumping his salary was the right move. Vernon should be next.
What does the defense he plays on have to do with anything though. No one is trying to suggest he by himself should be expected to carry a defense on his shoulders because no single defensive player in the entire sport can do that.
On paper their front four should be very good but their defense is giving up points by the truckload.
He’s not an impact player. 8 empty sacks wouldn’t help this team.
On paper this offense was supposed to be good. Does that mean that arent good players on it too?
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with the blockers so much. The goal is to get to the QB, not beat the olineman in a wrestling match.
Our guys looked pathetic vs San Fran...
Yeah, great point.
The hell with gap integrity. Rush the QB at all costs! They'll never run the ball!
We got a regular Jimmy Lombardi over here.
I never thought of that. You are right, we shouldn't let our dominating run-stop game be compromised at all. Lets keep this as is...
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In comment 14177147 Jimmy Googs said:
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with the blockers so much. The goal is to get to the QB, not beat the olineman in a wrestling match.
Our guys looked pathetic vs San Fran...
Yeah, great point.
The hell with gap integrity. Rush the QB at all costs! They'll never run the ball!
We got a regular Jimmy Lombardi over here.
I never thought of that. You are right, we shouldn't let our dominating run-stop game be compromised at all. Lets keep this as is...
You B played OL at a high level? There is a good chance he knows more about the game, especially the trenches than you and I combined.
Cool