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During a lost season, wins still matter

BillyM : 11/13/2018 4:38 pm
No other way to put it, being damn near irrelevant in early November truly sucks. The pain of watching this group through 8 games left me a beaten fan. I had once again come to the brink of accepting the fact that losing out and getting the top pick was a necessary evil in "the process," a term thrown around way too frequently these days.

Then something funny happened along the way, the Giants won a damn football game! And in that Monday night moment, watching our old leader Eli Manning bear hugging Shep as they ran off the field in victory, I reverted right back to hope, right back to the years of prime Eli, slinging and willing his team to victory. Sure, I know, there are heaping table spoons of nostalgia & fools gold in that feeling, as we all know our wounds are deep and wide this season. But for a night, it felt great, it reminded me of how much we need to get this ship turned straight again and rebuild a winning tradition.

Short story, this team doesn't need wins right now for playoff aspirations, for division rankings, for championship runs. This team, particularly our talented youth, need wins to truly understand what it takes to do exactly that, win.

Winning is not easy, it takes a certain killer instinct and mindset to accomplish with consistency, to put your foot on the neck of an opponent and end it under your power. The league is littered with teams who have lost for decades; the Jets come to mind. And as we have seen over the past 5-6 years, losing becomes contagious. Barkley, Hernandez, Zo Carter, BJ, Tomlinson, Rosas, OBJ, Shep, etc. These guys need to feel how good a winning culture could be, how awesome an away flight home feels with a W in your back pocket.

My hope is we find little victories throughout this year that act as building blocks for the future. A great block here, a solid tackle there. Bravo to Solder on getting his game tight last night. Bravo to Zo Carter for getting some pressure on the QB. Bravo to Eli, OBJ, Shep and Barkley for coming up big in big moments. Bravo to Shurmur for keeping this team's head in the game.

Let's get another one next week.
.  
Danny Kanell : 11/13/2018 4:40 pm : link
Good post.
RE: .  
BillyM : 11/13/2018 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14176755 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
Good post.


thx Danny
I said it on another thread...  
bradshaw44 : 11/13/2018 4:46 pm : link
Losing is a cancer to the team. These young super stars need wins to start moving forward.

Nothing beat last night when we got the ball back with over two minutes. I put my head phones on and turned on a song called 'Tap Dance' by Octave Minds and Chance the Rapper, grabbed a fresh beer, and for the first time in years I had NO doubt Eli was going to drive right down for the win. It was AWESOME. Leaning back in my chair with my arms up as Eli hit Shep brought all the old feelings back so I know what you mean!
+1  
widmerseyebrow : 11/13/2018 4:52 pm : link
For those fretting about draft position, the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft. Odell was taken #12. There's no generational quarterback this year. Just don't whiff on the pick and we'll be fine.
RE: I said it on another thread...  
BillyM : 11/13/2018 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14176771 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Losing is a cancer to the team. These young super stars need wins to start moving forward.

Nothing beat last night when we got the ball back with over two minutes. I put my head phones on and turned on a song called 'Tap Dance' by Octave Minds and Chance the Rapper, grabbed a fresh beer, and for the first time in years I had NO doubt Eli was going to drive right down for the win. It was AWESOME. Leaning back in my chair with my arms up as Eli hit Shep brought all the old feelings back so I know what you mean!


Agree. the reason I had confidence is our old QB had protection last night. It's a simple formula, give him time and he'll do old school Eli things.
RE: +1  
BillyM : 11/13/2018 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14176791 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
For those fretting about draft position, the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft. Odell was taken #12. There's no generational quarterback this year. Just don't whiff on the pick and we'll be fine.


And given our holes, I'm fine going back in the order, grabbing extra picks and still grabbing either QB, DE or tackle
RE: RE: I said it on another thread...  
bradshaw44 : 11/13/2018 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14176799 BillyM said:
Quote:
In comment 14176771 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


Losing is a cancer to the team. These young super stars need wins to start moving forward.

Nothing beat last night when we got the ball back with over two minutes. I put my head phones on and turned on a song called 'Tap Dance' by Octave Minds and Chance the Rapper, grabbed a fresh beer, and for the first time in years I had NO doubt Eli was going to drive right down for the win. It was AWESOME. Leaning back in my chair with my arms up as Eli hit Shep brought all the old feelings back so I know what you mean!



Agree. the reason I had confidence is our old QB had protection last night. It's a simple formula, give him time and he'll do old school Eli things.


Yep. And you could see on Eli's face how happy and relaxed he was for the first time all season. I hope to see it the rest of the season too.
I want to win out  
Chris684 : 11/13/2018 4:56 pm : link
I could care less about draft picks or playoffs. I just want to win as many games as possible.

There will be changes either way. There will be QBs we can draft this year or next.

3 divisions games on the schedule still, spoil it for each one of those teams.
I get it  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2018 5:00 pm : link
As a fan, you're just happy to have something to feel good about. That's fine.

But don't turn it into something it isn't. They don't need to 'learn how to win'. They need the talent level to win games.

Did they 'learn how to win' last night, or were they just better at offensive line, which allowed them to score points. This isn't a psychological thing, and these players aren't new to competitive football. Saquon Barkley and Odell Beckham did more winning in college than as professionals. It's not about 'learning how to win'.
RE: excellent post Billy, thanks  
5BowlsSoon : 11/13/2018 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14176791 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
For those fretting about draft position, the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft. Odell was taken #12. There's no generational quarterback this year. Just don't whiff on the pick and we'll be fine.


Excellent comment here too. You are right...picking in top 5 probably isnít that important this year. In fact, I kind of hope Gmen can trade down with top pick and get an OL and QB in first round...if that is even possible.
RE: I get it  
BillyM : 11/13/2018 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14176828 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
As a fan, you're just happy to have something to feel good about. That's fine.

But don't turn it into something it isn't. They don't need to 'learn how to win'. They need the talent level to win games.

Did they 'learn how to win' last night, or were they just better at offensive line, which allowed them to score points. This isn't a psychological thing, and these players aren't new to competitive football. Saquon Barkley and Odell Beckham did more winning in college than as professionals. It's not about 'learning how to win'.


A team that has many new parts absolutely needs to "learn how to win." OBJ and Barkley were stand outs in college, I agree. And they won often.

But an offensive line, as an example, needs to learn how to close out games, together.

The college game came very easy to some of these kids. The NFL is a far different beast. One player doesn't just dominate and grab victories; if that was the case Aaron R would have like five Super Bowls for the Packers. It takes a team effort. So respectfully, I disagree that the Giants don't need to "learn how to win." Looking at cohesive units, they absolutely need to learn how to play better together to find W's.
You're not going to get cohesion until you get players that function.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2018 5:13 pm : link
Just as an example, Shurmur is a former Center. I think he understands the nature of offensive lines. The performance has been subpar, therefore they're on their 9th different offensive line combination since the start of the season. It's not because of health except in the case of losing their Week 1 starter at Center.

It wasn't about wins when they traded off arguably their best defensive player. It was about recognizing they need more ability, and trying to collect more resources.

When you have a roster you're happy with, you'll see them build cohesion and all those good things. But without talent, it's a revolving door.
Bill. It is a nicely written  
joeinpa : 11/13/2018 5:45 pm : link
Post and certainly a valid position for you as a fan to take.

However I couldn't disagree with the premise more. I believe, baring a miraculous run to the playoffs, there will be little or no carry over to next season.

Just as in baseball momentum from a previous win disappears in the next game when you face Sandy Koufax, the feel good feeling of ast night will last until the next time the O line is dominated.

Because I believe this to be true I also believe the euphoria of the moment in a game like last night, is far out weighed by, the higher draft choices, those type of wins can jeopardize.

That said, I enjoyed the win, but still believe the long range rebuild is better served by losing, that too is a valid opinion for a fan to have.
what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
Greg from LI : 11/13/2018 5:49 pm : link
in 2013? Absolutely nothing.
i wished I cared about all this  
UESBLUE : 11/13/2018 5:58 pm : link
as much as many of you because I used to.
The Patriots  
widmerseyebrow : 11/13/2018 6:02 pm : link
are not perfect at drafting, but they accumulate picks and usually pick late in each round. The Browns have had numerous top 5 picks. Again, let's not fret over draft position when it comes to long term winning.

Winning is important to maintain the buy-in that players have for their coach, and therefore that coach's longevity, and therefore the continuity the players have to learn within that coach's scheme and master it over the course of years.

You can add top 5 picks every year, but that means you're changing coaches a lot and your roster's skill set has to be constantly churned to be effective for the incoming guy. It's a cycle of losing and false hope. You want to win.
RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
widmerseyebrow : 11/13/2018 6:07 pm : link
In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
in 2013? Absolutely nothing.


Losing would have accomplished more? When the GM is failing in all aspects, nothing is going to overcome that kind of talent attrition. That doesn't mean having a motivated team is a bad thing.
RE: RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2018 6:15 pm : link
In comment 14176920 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


in 2013? Absolutely nothing.



Losing would have accomplished more? When the GM is failing in all aspects, nothing is going to overcome that kind of talent attrition. That doesn't mean having a motivated team is a bad thing.


Winning those 6 games likely bought the failing GM more time though.
RE: I said it on another thread...  
bw in dc : 11/13/2018 6:20 pm : link
In comment 14176771 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Losing is a cancer to the team. These young super stars need wins to start moving forward.

Nothing beat last night when we got the ball back with over two minutes. I put my head phones on and turned on a song called 'Tap Dance' by Octave Minds and Chance the Rapper, grabbed a fresh beer, and for the first time in years I had NO doubt Eli was going to drive right down for the win. It was AWESOME. Leaning back in my chair with my arms up as Eli hit Shep brought all the old feelings back so I know what you mean!


Losing or winning this year has absolutely no impact on next year. The economics, ground rules for building teams, and injuries make each year unique. So good vibes from winning simply don't convey. That's why the current state of the game has teams going from the outhouse to the penthouse from year to year, and vice versa, regularly.
Gettleman, Mara, whomever  
joeinpa : 11/13/2018 6:26 pm : link
So badly misread where this team was at the beginning of the year. Believing with moves to support Eli they could contend again.

if they loss enough games the might get the chance to do it right this time.
RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
WillVAB : 11/13/2018 8:45 pm : link
In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
in 2013? Absolutely nothing.


Funny thing is they didnít miss out on anyone who went higher in the draft. They took Pugh over guys like Xavier Rhodes, Deandre Hopkins, and Travis Frederick who went a few picks later.
Love it great post..  
JCin332 : 11/13/2018 8:54 pm : link
..
Maybe  
Jerry in DC : 11/13/2018 9:24 pm : link
wins have some lasting benefit. The evidence doesn't seem strong to me, but it seems possible at least.

The question to me is how much do they matter? Of at least, how much do you think they matter? What actual value do you place on going from 3 wins to 6 wins?

What if someone said you could have a 3 win season and you get a free seventh round pick, or 6 wins and no pick? I assume you would take the 6 wins. What if it was a first round pick? A third? Where would you draw the line?
RE: The Patriots  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2018 9:35 pm : link
In comment 14176919 widmers
You can add top 5 picks every year [/quote]

No one's advocating for an endless cycle of top 5 picks.

In 2017, this was a 3 win franchise.

New coach, new GM, 67% roster turnover.

2 wins in 2018. It's evident this roster deserve the talent shot that comes with being a bottom 5 team. So take it when you can get it.
Winning is a culter  
BlueHurricane : 11/13/2018 9:54 pm : link
So is losing.

We need to get back to being a winning culture.
RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
bradshaw44 : 11/13/2018 10:08 pm : link
In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
in 2013? Absolutely nothing.


Led them to draft Odell at 12, no?
Speaking of the Patriots  
Samiam : 11/14/2018 7:46 am : link
Do you remember last season game of 2007? Giants clinched playoff spot already & the game against undefeated Pats meant nothing. People here & everywhere said donít risk getting injuries & tank the game. Coughlin went for the win and while he didnít win, many think their performance in that game started the SB run. Call it whatever you want it, learning to win or learning not to lose but football is a mentality & regardless of what fans think, the players need that feeling they got from beating SF on Monday & they need more of it. Players are not thinking of next years draft; they want to win every game & so should we here
You need the talent to get to the learning how to win part  
JonC : 11/14/2018 7:56 am : link
In reality, a big chunk of this team won't be here beyond this season.

I won't root for losses, but come April on Draft Night, picking higher will feel better than the losses do now.
...  
christian : 11/14/2018 8:06 am : link
Jon nails it -- most of the bodies Gettleman has ushered in will not be here next year if his M.O. this year is any indication.

You have to have the foundation to build.

Coughlin tanked the the 04 season to build. Losing 6/7 games didn't unravel the mythical heart of the team. But I'm not convinced this team has that foundation.

It's easy to get excited when Gettleman gives an axe to anyone not playing well, but at some point you need a group of guys who at least know the system and can execute it.

Not to win per see, but so the staff can self assess and the guys who are the future can learn the muscle memory.
TTH  
ManningLobsItBurressAlone : 11/14/2018 8:54 am : link
nails it. Another big portion of this roster will be turned over next season. Yes, you can point to each and every single draft and find a pick in the 10s, and 20s, and 30s, and 40s, being better than picks ahead of it, but there is an actual tangible value of picking higher.

As a poster said earlier, look at how much the Jets paid to move up just 3 spots last year..From 6 to 3. It cost them their 37th and 49th overall picks. The difference between them was 1 win.

For Buffalo to go from 12 to 7, it cost them their 53rd and 56th picks.

Just 2 years ago, look how much it took Chicago to move up just 1 spot, from 3 to 2. It cost them their 3rd round, 4th round, and 3rd in 2018.

There is actual tangible value picking higher, yes it might not always work out, but having your selection of more players is certainly an advantage.

RE: RE: RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/14/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 14176924 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14176920 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


in 2013? Absolutely nothing.



Losing would have accomplished more? When the GM is failing in all aspects, nothing is going to overcome that kind of talent attrition. That doesn't mean having a motivated team is a bad thing.



Winning those 6 games likely bought the failing GM more time though.


The same can be said for what happened in 2014.

They were 3-9, having lost 7 straight and just blew a 21 point lead at Jacksonville. This thing was crumbled and ripe for a blowup right then and there.

What happened?....Odell goes crazy the last 4 games of the season, the Giants win 3 of the 4 games, and that allows management a "Get Out of Jail Free" card to say that everything may be turning in the right direction.

So instead of getting rid of the squad and the coaching staff, the Giants decided to give Coughlin and everyone "one more shot" for the 2015 season.

The result? They start the season 0-2 (again), so there was not any carryover from the previous year. The season ends up at 6-10 (again) and Coughlin gets fired anyway.

Basically, a year of everyone's time is wasted.

If you are building from scratch, than the wins mean something because everyone is going through the process together. Look at the current roster and ask how many of those players you expect to be here in 2020. If the number is less than 10, I'm not totally about those few players dragging down the rest of the new guys you are bringing in.

But if you have a veteran team, nothing is being gained by squeaking out a few wins now if you are going to get rid of as many of them as you can after the season anyway.
"Learning how to win" is overblown  
BestFeature : 11/14/2018 11:22 am : link
Maybe 7-9 vs. 1-15 is an example of this, but if we go 3-13 and miss out on a franchise changer those 2 extra wins would have had no positive effect on this franchise.
RE: Speaking of the Patriots  
BestFeature : 11/14/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 14177158 Samiam said:
Quote:
Do you remember last season game of 2007? Giants clinched playoff spot already & the game against undefeated Pats meant nothing. People here & everywhere said donít risk getting injuries & tank the game. Coughlin went for the win and while he didnít win, many think their performance in that game started the SB run. Call it whatever you want it, learning to win or learning not to lose but football is a mentality & regardless of what fans think, the players need that feeling they got from beating SF on Monday & they need more of it. Players are not thinking of next years draft; they want to win every game & so should we here


Big difference for when you're 10-5 and 1-7. Can't even compare.
RE: RE: what did winning six of their last eight do for them  
Jay on the Island : 11/14/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 14177034 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14176905 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


in 2013? Absolutely nothing.



Funny thing is they didnít miss out on anyone who went higher in the draft. They took Pugh over guys like Xavier Rhodes, Deandre Hopkins, and Travis Frederick who went a few picks later.

Wrong draft, It was the Beckham draft.
I can't see how beating a terrible teams helps  
Rudy5757 : 11/14/2018 12:36 pm : link
We beat an equally bad team and had trouble doing it. People praising Alive or a comeback must have rose colored glasses on. He did not play well and even on the game winning drive he had several bad throws.

All we did is potentially lose draft position. It's nice to get a win but we are competing with them for a better draft spot. It won't feel good if we lose out on a player because of 1 meaningless win. We traded a ton to get Eli Manning it worked out but that's not always the case sometimes you get C jerk Jones or Thomas Lewis. We are still a terrible team and many of these players will not be here next year.

I get your point but I disagree with it the season is over it's time to play the young guys and get them experience. If they get experience and we win games those are the guys that are going to be here in the long run but we didn't play any young guys
Sorry can't do it anymore  
gmenatlarge : 11/14/2018 12:47 pm : link
when there is 3 games left in the season then fine. It is looking like there is no big QB to go after so what's the point, it's a crap shoot anyway. If Tua was coming out different story but it's time to change the rhetoric and have some hope, can't root for losses. There are people on this site saying we should tank AGAIN next year for Tua, that's 3 years in a row, can't deal with that. Why not stick around and be a thorn in the side of the rest of the division, fuck it tired of losing. I mean what is this a lousy Jets or Cle team, NO F'N Way!
I posted this on a thread the other day/week  
Matt in SGS : 11/14/2018 2:17 pm : link
and I think it applies here

Quote:
ďBoys, Iíve got some good news and some bad news. The good news is, give me three years and weíre going to be in the Super Bowl. The bad news is, half of you ainít gonna be here to see it.Ē Ė Mike Ditka after his first day of practice as the head coach of the Chicago Bears in 1982.


The Bears were a dumpster fire before Ditka (and Buddy Ryan) got there. Shurmur is not Ditka as a quotesmith but the general sense also applies here. The Giants need a massive turnover and started the process this offseason. As this season moves along, the Giants are identifying the others who will continue along as the new core. But there is lots of filler on the roster now, guys who aren't figuring to be here long, including Eli due to his age.

So yes, it's nice to win a game, but don't lose sight of the long play here. The Giants are looking to be in position to turn things around in 2019 and see if they can get ready to go on a run starting in 2020. That's reality. So if you are going to be bringing in new talent, the better the draft pick (to take a player or move down and acquire more picks) is the way to go.

I hate them with a passion, but the 1990s Cowboys made the blue print. They were 3-13 in 1988 and 1-15 in 1989. They had Aikman, Irvin and a couple of pieces on offense and defense, but the rest of their roster was old and trash. And they had a trade chip in Herschel. Jimmy Johnson wheeled and dealed with his picks to quickly accumulate talent and turn them around.

So while I'm not "rooting for losses" per se, I'm playing the long game with this team. The Eli window has closed, they need to build the next run around Saquon and Odell and go from there. And going 3-13 is better than 5-11 considering where the Giants actually are.
RE: RE: I get it  
Dinger : 11/14/2018 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14176842 BillyM said:
Quote:
In comment 14176828 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


As a fan, you're just happy to have something to feel good about. That's fine.

But don't turn it into something it isn't. They don't need to 'learn how to win'. They need the talent level to win games.

Did they 'learn how to win' last night, or were they just better at offensive line, which allowed them to score points. This isn't a psychological thing, and these players aren't new to competitive football. Saquon Barkley and Odell Beckham did more winning in college than as professionals. It's not about 'learning how to win'.



A team that has many new parts absolutely needs to "learn how to win." OBJ and Barkley were stand outs in college, I agree. And they won often.

But an offensive line, as an example, needs to learn how to close out games, together.

The college game came very easy to some of these kids. The NFL is a far different beast. One player doesn't just dominate and grab victories; if that was the case Aaron R would have like five Super Bowls for the Packers. It takes a team effort. So respectfully, I disagree that the Giants don't need to "learn how to win." Looking at cohesive units, they absolutely need to learn how to play better together to find W's.


I don't think its necessarily 'learning' how to win as much as its experiencing the win. Giving all you've got and leaving it all on the field sucks if you lose week after week . Losing just sucks as fans. Can you imagine its your job and losing. Winning brings good feelings, keeps you on the 'ship' and shows there is light at the end of the tunnel.
RE: I posted this on a thread the other day/week  
gmenatlarge : 11/14/2018 5:26 pm : link
In comment 14177602 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and I think it applies here



Quote:


ďBoys, Iíve got some good news and some bad news. The good news is, give me three years and weíre going to be in the Super Bowl. The bad news is, half of you ainít gonna be here to see it.Ē Ė Mike Ditka after his first day of practice as the head coach of the Chicago Bears in 1982.



The Bears were a dumpster fire before Ditka (and Buddy Ryan) got there. Shurmur is not Ditka as a quotesmith but the general sense also applies here. The Giants need a massive turnover and started the process this offseason. As this season moves along, the Giants are identifying the others who will continue along as the new core. But there is lots of filler on the roster now, guys who aren't figuring to be here long, including Eli due to his age.

So yes, it's nice to win a game, but don't lose sight of the long play here. The Giants are looking to be in position to turn things around in 2019 and see if they can get ready to go on a run starting in 2020. That's reality. So if you are going to be bringing in new talent, the better the draft pick (to take a player or move down and acquire more picks) is the way to go.

I hate them with a passion, but the 1990s Cowboys made the blue print. They were 3-13 in 1988 and 1-15 in 1989. They had Aikman, Irvin and a couple of pieces on offense and defense, but the rest of their roster was old and trash. And they had a trade chip in Herschel. Jimmy Johnson wheeled and dealed with his picks to quickly accumulate talent and turn them around.

So while I'm not "rooting for losses" per se, I'm playing the long game with this team. The Eli window has closed, they need to build the next run around Saquon and Odell and go from there. And going 3-13 is better than 5-11 considering where the Giants actually are.


Jimmy Johnson wheeling and dealing is overstating it quite a bit. The y found a sucker in the Vikings who thought they were a RB away from a SB.They were willing to give up a boatload of picks and Johnson fresh out of college had excaellent knowledge of who to pick and he played that well.
The basketball  
Les in TO : 11/14/2018 6:35 pm : link
Version of Todd Berrtuzziís attack on Steve Moore.
I'm late to posting on this but  
12aob : 11/16/2018 12:25 am : link
I think rooting for a higher draft pick is misguided. While we're not winning the Super Bowl this year it is important to see the team win games - that would show we have some legitimate players in place to work with. Granted I want to see that against better teams than the Niners and Bucs. But if we lose to teams like them we need to turn over most of the roster again. That would really suck.
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