for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Is it time to convert EE to our big WR? (& draft a big TE?)

Beezer : 11/14/2018 5:54 pm
It might be too early to declare Evan Engram a mistake as the 23rd pick of the 2017 draft. Taken as a TE, some here have bemoaned the value. He had what I thought was a pretty solid rookie season with 64 receptions, 722 yards and 6 TDs. The numbers are down this year (6 games, 21 catches for 191 yards and 2 TDs).

Would Engram, with his straight-line speed, make sense as a #3 WR?

He's currently listed at 6-3, 240 pounds, but played at 227 at Ol' Miss. Would it be possible for him to trim back a bit to 230? You'd assume he's worked to add weight, playing the in-line spot. Perhaps in the pro game, he would be better suited away from the line.

There seem to be a lot of decent TEs in college right now, namely the kid from Missouri (Albert Okwuegbunam). He's 6-5, 260 and is said to be a "dangerous mismatch." I'm not at all saying he'd be as good, of course, but Jason Witten played at 6-6, 260-265. Just wonder if one pick might serve two purposes.

In a list of the NFL's top WRs, there are a lot of guys who are considered "big" receivers. It's close to a 50/50 split on guys in OBJ's size ballpark and the larger guys. The Giants have TWO of those "smaller" quick guys in Odell (5-11, 198) and Sterling Shepard (5-10, 201). Get Engram to 230 and ... then what?

Julio Jones 6-3, 220
A.J. Green 6-4, 210
Michael Thomas 6-3, 212
Mike Evans 6-5, 231
Kennan Allen 6-2, 211
Larry Fitz 6-3, 218
Allen Robinson 6-3, 211

Of course the Giants need to go O-line early in the draft. But if they're in the top 3-5 spots, what about trading down to maybe 10 or so, and grabbing Okwuegbunam? Probably wouldn't be there in the second round. Too high a pick to take him? It's all a damn gamble.

A guy his size on the line, though ... to learn from Rhett Ellison, who's signed through 2021?

Might be a way to go.

What say you, bitches?

Ellison isn't getting good reviews from Sy - and that includes his  
Ira : 11/14/2018 6:12 pm : link
blocking. He may be someone we look to cut and replace.
I thought he would've  
RomanWH : 11/14/2018 6:13 pm : link
been split out wide more often last year when Marshall got injured. Have him and OBJr out wide, Shep in the slot, Ellison as the starting TE. I'm with ya.
...  
christian : 11/14/2018 6:15 pm : link
The big guy is gonna give you a talking to. A serious talking to.
Is Ellison healthy? That's the talk on Solder ...  
Beezer : 11/14/2018 6:16 pm : link
It's easy to crap on these guys. But some of them are tough SOBs who gut it out. Still, sometimes their performance is affected, even a tick. Ellison has been a terrific blocker. One of the upsides about him. Hard to believe he suddenly forgot how. Curious if he's dealing with anything physical.
RE: ...  
Beezer : 11/14/2018 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14177844 christian said:
Quote:
The big guy is gonna give you a talking to. A serious talking to.


So many big guys around here. Which one? lol
if he  
larryinnewhaven : 11/14/2018 6:17 pm : link
has hand implants and learns to catch I am for it. He makes Johnny Lam Jones look like Larry Fitzgerald.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 11/14/2018 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14177847 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 14177844 christian said:


Quote:


The big guy is gonna give you a talking to. A serious talking to.



So many big guys around here. Which one? lol


He's big, he's down south in where he lives rhymes with garlic.
I guess I'm not privvy  
Beezer : 11/14/2018 6:22 pm : link
to something. lol
Moving him to WR would be foolish IMO.  
FStubbs : 11/14/2018 6:24 pm : link
He has hands of stone. Moving him to wideout would exacerbate the problem.
RE: I guess I'm not privvy  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14177851 Beezer said:
Quote:
to something. lol


He's referring to FMiC.
A thought  
Jack in MD : 11/14/2018 6:29 pm : link
He runs lousy routes, is a poor downfield blocker,and drops a lot of passes. Doing the same thing over and over again with the same player and expecting different results is not a good bet.
Route running  
Mdgiantsfan : 11/14/2018 6:29 pm : link
Has anyone paid attention to his route running? I haven't but I'd imagine that if he isn't crisp in his route running, he'd struggle against decent coverage. The fact that he gets little action I just truly don't see enough of him to know either way.
...  
christian : 11/14/2018 6:31 pm : link
Lol sorry -- I'm trying out being clever on BBI this year. Failure as usual.

FMiC feels strongly against it.

Me on the other hand -- I'd just as much him foucs on catching the ball.
I wouldn't assume that Rhett stays this off-season.  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 6:32 pm : link
He'll carry a $2.5M dead cap hit with a $3.25M cap savings. His specialty was to be a steady presence blocking. Everyone just assume that Ben didn't know what he had on the roster and would explain the lack of use of Rhett. With Shurmur taking the helm, it was easy to assume that Rhett would have a more prominent role being that when Rhett was in Minn. he was a reliable role player under Shurmur. But either due to a lingering injury or perhaps age is creeping in, but so far Rhett has been a disappointment.
Yeah, because he has a TE next to his name that means we cannot  
robbieballs2003 : 11/14/2018 6:33 pm : link
line him up wide. Why are people so hung up on labels in the NFL? Who gives a shit if he is called a TE or a WR. It is up to our coach to put him in positions to succeed which he really isn't doing. Nothing wrong with using him inline either.
RE: Yeah, because he has a TE next to his name that means we cannot  
christian : 11/14/2018 6:39 pm : link
In comment 14177866 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
line him up wide. Why are people so hung up on labels in the NFL? Who gives a shit if he is called a TE or a WR. It is up to our coach to put him in positions to succeed which he really isn't doing. Nothing wrong with using him inline either.


The more practical implication is TEs are splitting time during the week on assignments with the o-line group and the skill groups.

I think he needs a lot of work as a pass catcher, where I think his future is in the NFL.
Engram needs to become a better TE (period!)  
Milton : 11/14/2018 6:45 pm : link
The team could add both a good, young TE who is a little more Jack Doyle than Eric Ebron, but that doesn't mean moving Engram to WR. Instead it means finding a big WR either in the draft or free agency next year (preferably the draft). An Amani Toomer type.
I like EE  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/14/2018 6:48 pm : link
but he is not particularly field fast, even though he times fast. I'm ok leaving him at H Back/TE and letting him grow into the position. Hopefully he becomes the impact player they envisioned.
I think in one of Sy's reviews,  
phil in arizona : 11/14/2018 6:50 pm : link
he mentioned that it might be time to experiment with him more on the outside. We can put him in the slot, but one of the issues with that is ODB and Shep like to play there as well. We also like to line Saquon up in some of the same spots we'd put EE in.

He might be a beast as a blocker in the WR screen game.
RE: RE: Yeah, because he has a TE next to his name that means we cannot  
robbieballs2003 : 11/14/2018 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14177873 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14177866 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


line him up wide. Why are people so hung up on labels in the NFL? Who gives a shit if he is called a TE or a WR. It is up to our coach to put him in positions to succeed which he really isn't doing. Nothing wrong with using him inline either.



The more practical implication is TEs are splitting time during the week on assignments with the o-line group and the skill groups.

I think he needs a lot of work as a pass catcher, where I think his future is in the NFL.


In today's NFL, practice time is so limited. If that is what is being referred to then he needs to get his ass out there with Beckham and the receivers before practice/games and work on his routes with Eli. But, as others have pointed out, his value is when he is matched up against safeties and LBs. Putting him against corners will not be a good thing. Yes, he needs to stop dropping passes but we are also not featuring him at all. I am very disappointed with Shurmur so far this year. I don't like the way he stacks the box when we want to run all the time. I don't like that he doesn't try to spread out the defense and make them defend the whole field. I don't like that he doesn't stick with the run (we did great in the first half this past game). I don't like that he isn't trying to take advantage of Engram against LBs and safeties. I don't like that he doesn't get Barkley matchups all game long. Barkley is more of a safety valve than a guy that runs his angle route in the middle of the field like we did on the last drive last game.

I will admit that I was very adamant about wanting Shurmur over all other candidates last year but I am not happy with his first year. I hope we see improvement in year two.
EE  
Tuckrule : 11/14/2018 6:54 pm : link
He has straight line speed. I have not seen him get in and out of breaks quickly at all. Not to mention. How many passes over the middle on crossing routes has this guy caught that he can’t get by the linebacker ? Not to mention his hands are awful. I don’t see it with this kid at all. To me he’s all athlete and not a football player
I'm afraid he's just  
Bill in UT : 11/14/2018 6:55 pm : link
a mistake. He can't block well enough to be a TE and he can't catch the ball well enough to be a WR
RE: I'm afraid he's just  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14177889 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
a mistake. He can't block well enough to be a TE and he can't catch the ball well enough to be a WR


And being chosen by the prior regime, he has the remaining second half of this season and next to stake his claim to remain at the top of the Giants TE depth chart. His fifth year option deadline is in May 2020 as he enters his fourth year. The Giants are not going to secure his rights by electing to give him $10.7M when he can't block or catch.

He has lost his mojo  
GeorgeAdams33 : 11/14/2018 7:02 pm : link
Maybe he needs to cut his hair and quit being such a bitch
Now I'm a bitch?  
short lease : 11/14/2018 7:11 pm : link
.
If there is a TE with some talent for blocking ....  
short lease : 11/14/2018 7:21 pm : link
and can catch a ball every once in while when needed? I am all for it.

EE is never going to be the 6th OL on the field like we need but, I definitely think he can loose some pounds and at least act like a 3rd WR. He is very fast and has good hands ....but, I don't think it will ever happen. NFL teams are like Congress or an aircraft carrier ... they don't turn on a dime when it comes to strategy and line-up.
They guy's primary shortfalls are getting separation  
Mike from Ohio : 11/14/2018 7:44 pm : link
and catching the ball. The solution is to make him a WR?
I'd like to them to focus on Him as a Pass Catching Mismatch  
Rafflee : 11/14/2018 7:52 pm : link
He's not valuable otherwise
I don't think we're being creative in getting him the ball  
Go Terps : 11/14/2018 8:00 pm : link
Off the top of my head I can recall two goal to go situations where Barkley came across in motion and ran a jet sweep. Once was with Engram as a tailback in the backfield (I can't recall which game), and the other time was with a fullback in the backfield in Atlanta. Both times Barkley was stuffed.

This past weekend the Colts scored a TD with Eric Ebron running in a jet sweep. That got me wondering, why isn't Barkley the decoy in that type of play? Either line Barkley up in the backfield and hand it to Engram on the jet sweep, or run Barkley in motion (getting the defense thinking jet sweep) and hand it to Engram as the tailback running away from Barkley.

When we signed Beckham and drafted Barkley it stood to reason that Engram would be a huge beneficiary...he's likely going to be the third defensive priority every time. So why does he have 22 touches in 6 games and only 2 TDs (both of which came in garbage time)?

The offensive line obviously sucks, but I can't see what the coaches are doing to make our explosive players' lives easier.
At this point  
Joey from GlenCove : 11/14/2018 9:17 pm : link
I have to ask the hard question. Was Larry Donnelly a better tight end?

Not looking at stats. I felt like he was more relevant good or bad
RE: At this point  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 9:21 pm : link
In comment 14177978 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
I have to ask the hard dumb question. Was Larry Donnelly a better tight end?

Not looking at stats. I felt like he was more relevant good or bad


Leaping Larry? And by the way, you spelt dumb wrong. I fixed it for you.
His  
Clintqb17 : 11/14/2018 9:28 pm : link
Rookie numbers were good but keep in mind all of the Wr’s were hurt.
He's just not good  
longlive#10 : 11/14/2018 9:31 pm : link
All that speed and he struggles his ass of to seperate from linebackers in man coverage, corners would laugh their asses off at him, plus he has brick hands.

He brings almost nothing to the table. A true modern day giants TE.

Fuck I miss Shockey.
RE: His  
longlive#10 : 11/14/2018 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14177987 Clintqb17 said:
Quote:
Rookie numbers were good but keep in mind all of the Wr’s were hurt.


I tried to caution many on that, he was like a basketball player who scores 15 points a game on a tank team.
21 catches on 31 targets in 6 games  
Jimmy Googs : 11/14/2018 9:40 pm : link
with 1 catch over 20+ yards and only 6 first downs.

Why? My guesses in order:

1) Our very average passing offense has only just so many targets to go around and OBJ, SB and SS get the lions share.

2) Not sure EE is all that strong a route runner and he certainly doesn't read coverages/zones very well

3) Eli is impatient in that pocket so he isn't waiting for the matchup nightmare to break open

4) this offense stinks...
Oh and in case you haven't seen me post this before  
Jimmy Googs : 11/14/2018 9:43 pm : link
Engram was kind of a reach in the first round. Plenty of talent but clear limitations too.

Second round steal, but just "okay" in First round...
RE: Oh and in case you haven't seen me post this before  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 9:47 pm : link
In comment 14178000 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Engram was kind of a reach in the first round. Plenty of talent but clear limitations too.

Second round steal, but just "okay" in First round...


Back when we played the Saints, the one announcer had called Evan "Not Ramczyk" Engram.
RE: RE: Oh and in case you haven't seen me post this before  
Jimmy Googs : 11/14/2018 9:51 pm : link
In comment 14178003 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14178000 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Engram was kind of a reach in the first round. Plenty of talent but clear limitations too.

Second round steal, but just "okay" in First round...



Back when we played the Saints, the one announcer had called Evan "Not Ramczyk" Engram.


salt in the wound for sure...
RE: RE: RE: Oh and in case you haven't seen me post this before  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2018 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14178009 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14178003 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14178000 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Engram was kind of a reach in the first round. Plenty of talent but clear limitations too.

Second round steal, but just "okay" in First round...



Back when we played the Saints, the one announcer had called Evan "Not Ramczyk" Engram.



salt in the wound for sure...


No worries. We had the best RT in football.
During the draft,  
Doomster : 11/14/2018 10:14 pm : link
many thought the Giants screwed up in taking EE over Njoku and Howard....
Howard was picked earlier  
Jimmy Googs : 11/14/2018 10:18 pm : link
so he wasn't part of the equation.

Njoku had nice attributes but also some flaws as well.

RE: I'm afraid he's just  
Percy : 11/14/2018 11:54 pm : link
In comment 14177889 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
a mistake. He can't block well enough to be a TE and he can't catch the ball well enough to be a WR

Like it or not this seems to be true.
RE: During the draft,  
Milton : 11/15/2018 2:01 am : link
In comment 14178029 Doomster said:
Quote:
many thought the Giants screwed up in taking EE over Njoku and Howard....
Howard was already gone. There was some kind of misunderstanding/screw-up when Njoku was scheduled to meet with the Giants and I think they wound up never inviting him back. Other than that, I preferred Njoku to both Engram and Howard. The guy I really wanted was Cam Robinson.
If you had been drafting him as a WR, what round?  
Ivan15 : 11/15/2018 8:37 am : link
How about now after you have seen him play?
Not a WR  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/15/2018 9:13 am : link
I am always surprised how people comment on this great group of skill players other than Beckham and Barkley. With a much better OL those two could make a much bigger impact but this notion that the Giants have these great skill players all over the field is ridiculous.
I would use him at H-back which means he could motion anywhere  
Bob in Newburgh : 11/15/2018 9:29 am : link
I believe the problem is more the lack of an innovative OC rather than the guys we bring in who always coach like old farts and can't seem to teach anything to anybody.

This offense has arguably the scariest set of skill position players ever assembled on the same team and we manage to do little on offense.
Bob  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/15/2018 9:49 am : link
I think your scariest set of skill players ever assembled is way off. Engram and Sheppard are not big impact guys imo. About average skill level.

Aikman with one of the great lines ever assembled had great success with Irving and Smith and Novachek was a heck a threat as well.

Warner had Bruce, Holt, Faulk with a HOF left tackle.

Eli has Beckham, Barkley and a turnstile OL.
You managed to not mention  
Bob in Newburgh : 11/15/2018 10:44 am : link
OBJ and SB. Must be bench players.
Engram is a gnat ...  
Manny in CA : 11/15/2018 10:05 pm : link

We need a big bull at TE, that can go "mano-a-mano" with defensive lineman and run over tacklers, sort of like the Steelers' Vance McDonald (6'4", 267) ....

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000968730/Vance-McDonald-REFUSES-to-go-down-on-33-yard-catch
Never said anything about EE as a TE  
Bob in Newburgh : 11/16/2018 10:28 am : link
H-back, if commanded by a skilled OC, is an entirely different position.
That clip of McDonald was kind of lame  
WideRight : 11/16/2018 11:03 am : link
He trucked a guy, sure, but he ain't no Bavaro.

And speaking of Bavarro, I couldn't think of a more polar opposite than EE. Great speed, weak game skills. Yes the game has changed completely but one fact tells it all: Bavaro was a fourth round pick
Back to the Corner