I said it before but it's one of the best performances in Mets history. Flip a coin between Seaver's 71, Gooden's 85, and deGrom's 2018.
Considering the team he had behind him relative to Doc and the offenses now compared to then, I'd give it to DeGrom over Doc.
Its sure to kick up a firestorm but they accumulated almost the same WAR only dGrom did it in a lot fewer innings. Im not choosing one over the other though... All incredible, historic seasons.... and all close.
You guys see the background on the one turkey that didn't vote for deGrom?
I'm not a big fan of doxxing, twitter mobs, and/or silencing dissenting voices...
but if you look at the guy's background, he hardly has anything to do with Major League Baseball beyond the average fan. How does a guy like that get/keep a vote?
because it never get talked about. But he was phenomenal that year. Hershiser winning the CY over him was ok, he was better know and Hershiser was good too and had a good year, but Cone should easily have been 2nd and if Cone won it wouldn't have been controversial.
But as ZG says, it's not in the same league as 2018 deGrom.
And not to get in a massive debate, but even 2018 deGrom wasn't in the same class IMO as 1985 Gooden.
1985 Gooden is the best modern era pitching season I've seen or read about.
I'm not a huge fan of WAR for pitchers, but it's consistent.
Gooden 1985 WAR is #25 all time for single season (12.2 WAR). The closest year to him ahead of him is Walter Johnson in 1913. Gooden also tied for the youngest with the highest WAR since he was 20 years old for the 1985 season.
Steve Carlton's 1972 is the only other modern era pitcher season with a WAR over 12.
Clemens 1997, Pedro 2000, and Wilbur Wood 1971 the only other modern era pitching season's within .5 WAR of Gooden's 1985.
Time lessens a lot of things, and this in no way is meant to take away from a fantastic deGrom season, one of the best season's I've seen of a pitcher, but time will never lessen for me Gooden's 1985 season. He had better stuff than any pitcher I'd seen, was more dominant than any pitcher I'd seen, and just pure filthy phenom.
Such a shame, so much wasted talent. When you're that good at 19/20 years old you should be able to just stay healthy and make it to the HOF on pure stuff, unfortunately we know how that ended up.
To date I haven’t seen any definitive publication stating bWAR is better than fWAR. Usually, comes down to preference. bWAR pulls from ERA more while FG pulls from FIP more. I personally feel a pitcher shouldn’t be penalized or “helped” by his teammates so I tend to favor FIP (although they are both important).
To date I haven’t seen any definitive publication stating bWAR is better than fWAR. Usually, comes down to preference. bWAR pulls from ERA more while FG pulls from FIP more. I personally feel a pitcher shouldn’t be penalized or “helped” by his teammates so I tend to favor FIP (although they are both important).
Gooden 85. 8.9 fWAR
deGrom 18 8.8 fWAR
And deGrom did over far fewer innings.
Only reason I use bWAR and I should have clarified that b/c for position players I value fWAR more is because I don't trust fielding metrics.
so for a pitcher, while I still feel like WAR is lacking some, I prefer it with making as few fielding assumptions as possible.
and then there's the eye test. No doubt deGrom was dominant, and so consistent.
He just didn't/doesn't have Gooden's stuff.
Thor is closer, but lacks the command Gooden had - not control (thor has really good control, but command).
And Gooden in 1985 had Gary Carter which probably helped more than any FIP or WAR will show.
Anyway, like I said didn't want to get in some massive debate, this is all subjective to an extent, and I know a lot of people on here are really too young to see and remember Gooden that well (like me with Seaver), but 1999 Pedro is the closest season I've see to 1985 Gooden, but deGrom 2018 is definitely in my top 5 or 6.
reporting the Mets are open to dealing Wilmer but will likely tender him otherwise and that the Marlins will not trade Realmuto within the NL East unless "blown away". So Realmuto won't be a Met.
RE: RE: That’s all true if you only look at bWAR. Â
To date I haven’t seen any definitive publication stating bWAR is better than fWAR. Usually, comes down to preference. bWAR pulls from ERA more while FG pulls from FIP more. I personally feel a pitcher shouldn’t be penalized or “helped” by his teammates so I tend to favor FIP (although they are both important).
Gooden 85. 8.9 fWAR
deGrom 18 8.8 fWAR
And deGrom did over far fewer innings.
Only reason I use bWAR and I should have clarified that b/c for position players I value fWAR more is because I don't trust fielding metrics.
so for a pitcher, while I still feel like WAR is lacking some, I prefer it with making as few fielding assumptions as possible.
and then there's the eye test. No doubt deGrom was dominant, and so consistent.
He just didn't/doesn't have Gooden's stuff.
Thor is closer, but lacks the command Gooden had - not control (thor has really good control, but command).
And Gooden in 1985 had Gary Carter which probably helped more than any FIP or WAR will show.
Anyway, like I said didn't want to get in some massive debate, this is all subjective to an extent, and I know a lot of people on here are really too young to see and remember Gooden that well (like me with Seaver), but 1999 Pedro is the closest season I've see to 1985 Gooden, but deGrom 2018 is definitely in my top 5 or 6.
Im with you man. All good. But if you truly feel that you would prefer making as few defensive assumptions as possible (as I do) you should lean towards fWAR. FIP takes defense, sequence, and randomness out of the equation. Can’t argue the eyetest though. No question Gooden was absolutely electric.
reporting the Mets are open to dealing Wilmer but will likely tender him otherwise and that the Marlins will not trade Realmuto within the NL East unless "blown away". So Realmuto won't be a Met.
I hope this is true. The reported Braves offer of Mike Soroka and Austin Riley will end up being the next Adam Wainwright for two years of JD Drew trade. Why give all that up when they could just sign Grandal or Ramos?
Congrats, Jake.
It wasn’t even close!
Maybe this is why Fred hired BVG.
Ahhhh ... makes that season a bit less frustrating.
Good for him
Considering the team he had behind him relative to Doc and the offenses now compared to then, I'd give it to DeGrom over Doc.
Quote:
I said it before but it's one of the best performances in Mets history. Flip a coin between Seaver's 71, Gooden's 85, and deGrom's 2018.
Considering the team he had behind him relative to Doc and the offenses now compared to then, I'd give it to DeGrom over Doc.
Its sure to kick up a firestorm but they accumulated almost the same WAR only dGrom did it in a lot fewer innings. Im not choosing one over the other though... All incredible, historic seasons.... and all close.
Going in to 2018 I would have guessed Syndergaard would win CY Young if a Mets pitcher was going to win it and I had to guess which pitcher would win.
I knew deGrom was good, just not this good and Thor was able to "throw 100 with a hook from hell" (in the words of his former manager).
So if Thor can improve on his already solid repertoire the Mets have two legit aces (and they probably already do).
What a year for DG, congrats
Going in to 2018 I would have guessed Syndergaard would win CY Young if a Mets pitcher was going to win it and I had to guess which pitcher would win.
I knew deGrom was good, just not this good and Thor was able to "throw 100 with a hook from hell" (in the words of his former manager).
So if Thor can improve on his already solid repertoire the Mets have two legit aces (and they probably already do).
Yes, Wheels and Degrom are the duo aces. Syndergaard is a no 3 at this moment.
What about Cone's 88?
You guys see the background on the one turkey that didn't vote for deGrom?
I'm not a big fan of doxxing, twitter mobs, and/or silencing dissenting voices...
but if you look at the guy's background, he hardly has anything to do with Major League Baseball beyond the average fan. How does a guy like that get/keep a vote?
Quote:
I said it before but it's one of the best performances in Mets history. Flip a coin between Seaver's 71, Gooden's 85, and deGrom's 2018.
What about Cone's 88?
Not in the same tier IMO. Lots of wins and a great year though.
But as ZG says, it's not in the same league as 2018 deGrom.
And not to get in a massive debate, but even 2018 deGrom wasn't in the same class IMO as 1985 Gooden.
1985 Gooden is the best modern era pitching season I've seen or read about.
I'm not a huge fan of WAR for pitchers, but it's consistent.
Gooden 1985 WAR is #25 all time for single season (12.2 WAR). The closest year to him ahead of him is Walter Johnson in 1913. Gooden also tied for the youngest with the highest WAR since he was 20 years old for the 1985 season.
Steve Carlton's 1972 is the only other modern era pitcher season with a WAR over 12.
Clemens 1997, Pedro 2000, and Wilbur Wood 1971 the only other modern era pitching season's within .5 WAR of Gooden's 1985.
Time lessens a lot of things, and this in no way is meant to take away from a fantastic deGrom season, one of the best season's I've seen of a pitcher, but time will never lessen for me Gooden's 1985 season. He had better stuff than any pitcher I'd seen, was more dominant than any pitcher I'd seen, and just pure filthy phenom.
Such a shame, so much wasted talent. When you're that good at 19/20 years old you should be able to just stay healthy and make it to the HOF on pure stuff, unfortunately we know how that ended up.
Gooden 85. 8.9 fWAR
deGrom 18 8.8 fWAR
And deGrom did over far fewer innings.
Gooden 85. 8.9 fWAR
deGrom 18 8.8 fWAR
And deGrom did over far fewer innings.
Only reason I use bWAR and I should have clarified that b/c for position players I value fWAR more is because I don't trust fielding metrics.
so for a pitcher, while I still feel like WAR is lacking some, I prefer it with making as few fielding assumptions as possible.
and then there's the eye test. No doubt deGrom was dominant, and so consistent.
He just didn't/doesn't have Gooden's stuff.
Thor is closer, but lacks the command Gooden had - not control (thor has really good control, but command).
And Gooden in 1985 had Gary Carter which probably helped more than any FIP or WAR will show.
Anyway, like I said didn't want to get in some massive debate, this is all subjective to an extent, and I know a lot of people on here are really too young to see and remember Gooden that well (like me with Seaver), but 1999 Pedro is the closest season I've see to 1985 Gooden, but deGrom 2018 is definitely in my top 5 or 6.
Quote:
To date I haven’t seen any definitive publication stating bWAR is better than fWAR. Usually, comes down to preference. bWAR pulls from ERA more while FG pulls from FIP more. I personally feel a pitcher shouldn’t be penalized or “helped” by his teammates so I tend to favor FIP (although they are both important).
Gooden 85. 8.9 fWAR
deGrom 18 8.8 fWAR
And deGrom did over far fewer innings.
Only reason I use bWAR and I should have clarified that b/c for position players I value fWAR more is because I don't trust fielding metrics.
so for a pitcher, while I still feel like WAR is lacking some, I prefer it with making as few fielding assumptions as possible.
and then there's the eye test. No doubt deGrom was dominant, and so consistent.
He just didn't/doesn't have Gooden's stuff.
Thor is closer, but lacks the command Gooden had - not control (thor has really good control, but command).
And Gooden in 1985 had Gary Carter which probably helped more than any FIP or WAR will show.
Anyway, like I said didn't want to get in some massive debate, this is all subjective to an extent, and I know a lot of people on here are really too young to see and remember Gooden that well (like me with Seaver), but 1999 Pedro is the closest season I've see to 1985 Gooden, but deGrom 2018 is definitely in my top 5 or 6.
Im with you man. All good. But if you truly feel that you would prefer making as few defensive assumptions as possible (as I do) you should lean towards fWAR. FIP takes defense, sequence, and randomness out of the equation. Can’t argue the eyetest though. No question Gooden was absolutely electric.
Link - ( New Window )
relief pitcher and left fielder. LOL. Have to like a guy with versatility.
Local guy for me sort of, from Worcester went to Merrimack.
Quote:
sign Ryan O'Rourke to minor league deal Link - ( New Window )
relief pitcher and left fielder. LOL. Have to like a guy with versatility.
Local guy for me sort of, from Worcester went to Merrimack.
He played 1 inning in LF in 2011 in the minors. I assume they ran out of players. Grandy hit a walk-off HR off of him a few years ago.
I hope this is true. The reported Braves offer of Mike Soroka and Austin Riley will end up being the next Adam Wainwright for two years of JD Drew trade. Why give all that up when they could just sign Grandal or Ramos?