I am piggybacking this off of my curiosity with Greg's continued assertion that Simms is the best QB to ever play for the Giants. I am not looking for a debate on Eli vs. Simms. I just never got to see him play and want to hear some of the older fans thoughts on him as a player.
I know all about the injuries and benching early in his career, the near perfect Superbowl performance, and the brutal NFC he had to contend with.
I am curious as to how he was viewed as a player in his day. Was he universally considered a top 10 QB? How was he viewed in the media? How clutch was he? How good was he or how consistent was he on a week to week basis? I have seen posters over the years insist that if he played in today's NFL he would be putting up monster numbers. Thanks in advance for your thoughts...
You should have seen Simms as rookie in 1979. After all the horrible football since 1965 and all the QB's who couldn't play here came this guy no one ever heard of throwing lasers around Giants Stadium. Of course he got hurt and he kept getting hurt because the team around him was awful. His career really didn't get started until 1984 five years wasted and lots of injuries after 1979.
When Simms played the rules were completely different and so were the Giants. The only thing that kept Simms out of the HOF were injuries that didn't allow him to compile and forced him to miss SB 25.
Simms was a better and more accurate passer than Eli. He was a much better athlete than Eli. As tough as Eli is Simms was tougher.
But Eli has a magic or did until 2012 that is really rare. Ernie was right about him.
They are hard to compare because of the era's and the NFL rules. 1 & 1A for me. A tie that Eli breaks because he is the only Giants QB to win 2 championships.
You have to judge the two quarterbacks, Eli , Simms, by the eye test.
Some think Eli was better some Simms. They are both great Giants quarterbacks.
For guys my age, Simms took the Giants to a place that prior to him, 64 to 80, Giants fans could only dream about. For that reason he holds a a special place in our fandom.
If I had to chose between Simms and Eli, I d take Phil, but that s just me.
Giants vs Rams 1979 - ( New Window )
1-Eli
2-Tittle
3-Phil
4-Conerly
5-Tarkenton
I have seen them all too and pretty much agree with the rankings here. Tittle and Simms were better throwers of the football than Eli. Eli does everything well enough but, not to demean him, he is the ultimate game manager. His ability to make pre-snap reads and get everyone in the right position is what sets him above the others. The perfect QB has Elis mind, Simms or Tittles throwing ability, and Tarkentons mobility. Tarik couldnt throw worth a lick. Conerly was always the poor mans Sammy Baugh.
That was a tough watch...
Eli had his games where he was mauled, like the SF game, but Simms always had 6 games in the NFC East, every year where he took a beating.....the defense could get away with a lot more way back when....look what LT did to QB's....would never happen today...
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But when you talk about where he ranked among his peers, it's kind of ironic, because in a lot of ways it is right in line with how Eli is ranked among his peers. He was on a tier below Joe Montana and Dan Marino same as Eli is a tier below Tom Brady and Drew Brees.
The strength of his game was his willingness to stand in there and take a hit in order to deliver the ball to the intended target. There was a receiver from the Broncos (Arthur Marshall?) that came to the Giants after Reeves became head coach who said he appreciated how Phil Simms gave him that extra split second to get open that John Elway did not.
I agree with all of this. and Tom's mention of how tough he was is true. If Simms played with the rules protecting the QB like today's rules he would have been even better. He's right up there on my list as favorite Giants QB's and I've seen a few before him too. Simms took a bunch of crap from fans probably a lot more so than Eli. My opinion, Simms still had some left in the tank when they released him. Many fans like myself weren't happy when they let him go.
I agree with all of this as well.
Just wanted to also mention how Bill Walsh was all set to draft Phil and was irate when the Giants took him before he could. Thats got to be something Phil should be proud of. Knowing one of the greatest coaches ever wanted him to QB his up and coming team.
He was at his best from 1984 through 1990...with his peak being those middle years. Simms was excellent at throwing the 15 yard out on a dime and also hitting the TE down the seam.
As most have said, he played in a different era, and if he had played on a different type of team - meaning better weather and better receivers - his stats would have improved dramatically. Bavaro was awesome, but his WRs were nothing extraordinary. As George Young said, Simms willed himself to be a terrific performer. The guy was all winning, nothing less.
One of my fav memories of his persona was after a loss to Dallas right before the strike in 1987...a camera man followed him off the field and Simms waved him off as if to say "I'm in no mood for this right now - back off." You talk about a guy who hates to lose, at Dave Gettleman says, it was Simms.
Also hurting Simms, no pun intended, was he was simply hurt an awful lot. And again, the game is different. Simms stood in the pocket better than any QB I have ever seen, took the hit to complete the pass. Today, many of those hits would be roughing no doubt.
Simms was probably along with LT my fav player to watch growing up. And I can say that to me, is HOF exclusion is probably correct. He comes up just short....had he QB'd that second SB victory he'd be in.
I also believe had Simms not been hurt in 1990, we would have come up short. The Giants had become way to predictable in 1990, and the need to mix things up was forced upon the coaching staff due to Hostetler now starting.
What more do you need to know? He showed up. He took chances. He was a bit of a gunslinger.
It was a different era, and he was great.
Simms is quoted as saying how much hatred he had for teams like the 49er and Philly.
Today, I get the impression guys go home after practice and have their other life - not that there's anything wrong with it. Guys exchange uniforms after games, chat, buddy it up........that didn't really exist back then.
It just seemed a little more personal back then, and Simms again personified that.
Also, something people overlook - by the late '80s, he was a statue, but before all of the injuries he could move just fine. He was a very good athlete.
Mark Bavaro said he had dreams where he strangled Buddy Ryan...hahaha
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Simms is quoted as saying how much hatred he had for teams like the 49er and Philly.
Mark Bavaro said he had dreams where he strangled Buddy Ryan...hahaha
There ya go.....that's what I am talking about. These were rivalries fought to the bitter end.
Look at Ronny Lott (who I loved as an opposing player) and Simms after a game, the two were ready to fight!!!
Rice: Oh, my God, you talk about a physical football game. You had guys taking out each other. We didn't like the Giants, and they didn't like us.
Eric Davis, 49ers cornerback, 1990-95: I remember standing on the field and listening to (Giants coach Bill) Parcells and Seifert yelling at each other across the field. We had a fourth down near midfield, and Parcells was saying, "Go for it," and throwing in some profanities. Seifert was yelling back at him. I remember the intensity of that game. It was one of those deals where you learned, "These matter."
(about the Simms-Lott confrontation)Davis: That was competition at its highest level. We were the two best teams in the league. We knew, "This is for home-field advantage." We were out there fighting. We had a ton of respect, but a strong dislike. Those guys were going at it, yelling at each other. If it hadn't been broken up, it would have been an old school, all-out barroom brawl, where guys would've been thrown out of the saloon one by one. What they were saying, you can't print. It was guys essentially saying, "The next time I see you, it's gonna be worse."
There was also this that I don't remember and never heard before, from just before Erik Howard knocking the ball out of Roger Craig's hands:
Young: That's a brutal memory. Brent makes that catch, spikes it in LT's face and screams, "It's over!" And it was over. I remember seeing him spike the ball, and then he turned to me and screamed, "I've been open all day. It's about time!" He was just letting everybody have it.
hahaha
Link - ( New Window )
Phil was tough as nails, got the crap beat out of him and at one time held the NFL record for being sacked the most lifetime with 477 (avg 2.9 per game). So those of you who think Eli would do better behind that line, think again. Eli has been sacked 391 times in a lot more games (60) averaging about 1.7 per game.
Having seen both, I think Eli is the better QB, but not by much. I think if Simms had Eli's receivers his passing numbers would be a lot better. Eli is a lot more durable.
This about sums it up for me. The fact that Simms had a good OL and a power running game was negated by the fact that he had almost no weapons his entire career and Ron Erhardt's offense was predicated around running early and often.
Bill Walsh told you everything you needed to know about Simms - he wanted him in the draft, and he was disappointed when he was gone.
I don't think cross era comparisons work either. The NFL was much more run and defense friendly at that time. Do you remember that 80's Giants defense - how much of that would be allowed today? They literally killed receivers trying to catch the ball on crossing routes, and made QBs beg for mercy. Just watch the 90 NFCC, and ask yourself - how many flags/ejections would this have amounted to today?
We're lucky to have had both of them.
Phil Simms 1979 - ( New Window )
Sure, fanbases still recognize rivalries, but players (and coaches) move around from team to team so much now that they don't hate the guys on the other side of the LOS like they used to.
But I always loved his fire and heart. I wish that Eli had the same willingness to put teammates in their place; guys like Shockey, for example. Simms would have demanded their respect and reliable route running.
Rice: Oh, my God, you talk about a physical football game. You had guys taking out each other. We didn't like the Giants, and they didn't like us.
Eric Davis, 49ers cornerback, 1990-95: I remember standing on the field and listening to (Giants coach Bill) Parcells and Seifert yelling at each other across the field. We had a fourth down near midfield, and Parcells was saying, "Go for it," and throwing in some profanities. Seifert was yelling back at him. I remember the intensity of that game. It was one of those deals where you learned, "These matter."
(about the Simms-Lott confrontation)Davis: That was competition at its highest level. We were the two best teams in the league. We knew, "This is for home-field advantage." We were out there fighting. We had a ton of respect, but a strong dislike. Those guys were going at it, yelling at each other. If it hadn't been broken up, it would have been an old school, all-out barroom brawl, where guys would've been thrown out of the saloon one by one. What they were saying, you can't print. It was guys essentially saying, "The next time I see you, it's gonna be worse."
There was also this that I don't remember and never heard before, from just before Erik Howard knocking the ball out of Roger Craig's hands:
Young: That's a brutal memory. Brent makes that catch, spikes it in LT's face and screams, "It's over!" And it was over. I remember seeing him spike the ball, and then he turned to me and screamed, "I've been open all day. It's about time!" He was just letting everybody have it.
hahaha
Link - ( New Window )
Good stuff 👍👍
He was the leader, at times a fiery leader. He encouraged the guys who needed it (like William Roberts) and got in the face of the guys who needed that.
I've seen them all since 1955 and I think he was a better leader than any of the rest of them. As a QB, you can argue all day about exactly where he belongs in the top five since '55, but I'd put Simms second to Eli based on all factors including leadership, arm, length of service with the GIANTS, and overall results.
What I remember most about Simms in his early days when he had not yet been anointed as the starter, was that when he was running the offense, they put points on the board - and the other QBs of the day usually did not. And putting points on the board is what a QB is paid to do. So I formed the opinion that he should be the starter quite a while before he actually got the job.
And I do think that Tuna's early decision to go with Brunner over Simms, the injury that kept him from completing the 1990 Championship season, and the decision to push him out probably prematurely in favor of Dave Brown all contributed to Simms not making the HOF.
And I still don't think he's ever had the accolades that he deserves from the NFL community. He was one tough SOB in the era before they put skirts on QBs, a Championship QB who would have won two if he hadn't been hurt late in the season, and set a "Super Bowl record that is going to stand for a long, long time.
He was one of my favorites and the perfect QB to compliment those teams, but he wasn't the Giants best QB ever.
Simms had a great arm. He had one of the best throws I've ever seen. The 4th and 17 throw to Johnson in '86 with Stensrud getting ready to level him was as good as it gets.
And read what Bill Walsh thought of Simms. He was enamored with him and was going to draft him in '79 if he fell. He loved him as a prospect.
But I have major reservations Eli could have played with the same effectiveness in the era Simms played in.
Eli is not mobile; and I don't see his make-up/style being able to hang in the pocket and deliver strikes. Patterns took longer to develop back then and you had to be willing to wait. In fact, I don't think Peyton would have been as effective either.
That wasn't a great pass blocking OL. And we didn't have great receivers. Eli has had considerably more WR talent to work with than Simms. Let's be honest, it's not even close.
Outside of Manuel for a few years and maybe some time with Sherard, Simms was working with second and third tier guys...
I think Eli could have played but I don't see him being as effective as Simms was - all things from that era being static.
For the arm they took Elway, for quick release they took Marino, etc. etc. They were building the ultimate Robo-QB...I think that's even the way the billed it.
From Simms, they took heart because that's what he was all about, and that sums up his career. The man gave it his all and wanted to win.
Definitely agree......he could zip it anywhere on a line. But on his deep throws, he wouldn't really arc it allowing WRs to run under it.......thus he throws had to be perfect.
I absolutely love his side arm whistler's..........batted down or not!! LOL
FWIW, cant find the quote but I know I heard Simms once say Eli was better than him.
FWIW, cant find the quote but I know I heard Simms once say Eli was better than him.
That quote does ring a bell
+1 Simms was as tough as they come, in the 85 playoff game against the bears Richard dent led with his helmet and hit Simms square in the jaw, wouldve knocked most people out. Phil go right up and kept playing!