Is EVERYTHING in the NFL. That’s why some teams move up or down. To get the player they want ir get more picks when they are not enambered by the guys there.
I would like to know the breakdown of those positions still in NFL. My guess is that some of those better teams have quite a few of their picks being in the trenches and above average players.
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
RE: I'm surprised we didn't beat the next team by a few more and Â
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
Good point, but I don't think they could be called misses (Wilson as well). They were talented and contributed. So was he very lucky in the early part of his tenure and extremely unlucky in the later? Ross was 'involved' from 2007 on and looking at those early drafts they had more success than later on.
those guys had their careers end really early, and so we ended up redrafting WRs, Safties, RBs etc. because those players ultimately could no longer play.
Our WR corps is jinxed with the amount of talent we drafted, and could not resign due to catastrophic injuries.
This doesn’t show how good the “non-bad” picks were.
Someone mentioned the Saints so we’ll use them as an example. Last year they had a phenomenal draft — Lattimore, Ramcyk, Kamara, etc. For the purposes of this data, they’re essentially the same as Engram, Tomlinson, and Webb. All are still in the league. But no reasonable fan would believe those players are of equal value.
Did they take into account how many suffered career-ending Â
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
Good point, but I don't think they could be called misses (Wilson as well). They were talented and contributed. So was he very lucky in the early part of his tenure and extremely unlucky in the later? Ross was 'involved' from 2007 on and looking at those early drafts they had more success than later on.
Don't forget about guys like Chad Jones and Tyler Sash....
Lists like this just don't really provide enough information to assess the success of how a franchise drafted. For example, we would also need to know the span of time this list is covering along with the actual number of draft picks each team had to even start to make a valid comparison.
A lot has been made about Chad Jones "what if's".... Â
even though he never played a down for us. But if you look back at all of Jerry Reese's 3rd round picks, there isn't really a valid reason to think he would have gone any different.
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
even though he never played a down for us. But if you look back at all of Jerry Reese's 3rd round picks, there isn't really a valid reason to think he would have gone any different.
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
So because Jerry Reese had a poor history of 3rd round picks and Chad Jones was a third round pick, he gets lumped in as a bust despite the fact that his career was ultimately ended before he ever played a down, and was completely unrelated to his actual ability to play football.
2007 — DT Jay Alford: Had a sack of Tom Brady in the 2007 Super Bowl, but that was his only career highlight. Spent just two years with the Giants before a knee injury wrecked his career. Tried to make a comeback with the Oakland Raiders in 2010, but lasted only four games.
2008 — WR Mario Manningham: The best of Reese’s third-round picks by far. Had 211 career receptions, 160 in four seasons with the Giants. Oh, and one fairly significant 2011 Super Bowl catch.
2009 — WR Ramses Barden (trade up) and TE Travis Beckum: In four seasons with the Giants, Barden caught 29 passes and Beckum 26. Maybe that’s OK production for one player, but not two.
2010 — S Chad Jones: Never played in the NFL after a horrific car crash nearly cost him his life.
2011 — WR Jerrel Jernigan: Caught just 38 passes in four seasons. Could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract with the Giants ran out.
2012 — CB Jayron Hosley: Started just 15 games in four seasons, and never became a reliable player. Like Jernigan, could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract expired.
2013 — DE Damontre Moore: Never became the pass-rushing force the Giants hoped for, and was let go after a locker-room run in with then-teammate Cullen Jenkins. Has bounced from team to team since without being able to find a home.
2014 — DT Jay Bromley: The Giants took Bromley earlier than even Bromley expected to be selected. In three seasons, he has one sack and has yet to really even hint at why the Giants valued him more highly than it seemed anyone else did.
2015 — Odighizuwa: No sacks, no starts, lots of injuries, lots of time riding the pine. Now, an apparent hiatus.
2016 — S Darian Thompson: Played in two games, then landed on injured reserve with a foot injury.
Tell me why Chad Jones was going to buck the trend.
2007 — DT Jay Alford: Had a sack of Tom Brady in the 2007 Super Bowl, but that was his only career highlight. Spent just two years with the Giants before a knee injury wrecked his career. Tried to make a comeback with the Oakland Raiders in 2010, but lasted only four games.
2008 — WR Mario Manningham: The best of Reese’s third-round picks by far. Had 211 career receptions, 160 in four seasons with the Giants. Oh, and one fairly significant 2011 Super Bowl catch.
2009 — WR Ramses Barden (trade up) and TE Travis Beckum: In four seasons with the Giants, Barden caught 29 passes and Beckum 26. Maybe that’s OK production for one player, but not two.
2010 — S Chad Jones: Never played in the NFL after a horrific car crash nearly cost him his life.
2011 — WR Jerrel Jernigan: Caught just 38 passes in four seasons. Could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract with the Giants ran out.
2012 — CB Jayron Hosley: Started just 15 games in four seasons, and never became a reliable player. Like Jernigan, could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract expired.
2013 — DE Damontre Moore: Never became the pass-rushing force the Giants hoped for, and was let go after a locker-room run in with then-teammate Cullen Jenkins. Has bounced from team to team since without being able to find a home.
2014 — DT Jay Bromley: The Giants took Bromley earlier than even Bromley expected to be selected. In three seasons, he has one sack and has yet to really even hint at why the Giants valued him more highly than it seemed anyone else did.
2015 — Odighizuwa: No sacks, no starts, lots of injuries, lots of time riding the pine. Now, an apparent hiatus.
2016 — S Darian Thompson: Played in two games, then landed on injured reserve with a foot injury.
Tell me why Chad Jones was going to buck the trend. NFL Draft: Third round has been a black hole for New York Giants - ( New Window )
Because every other pick listed here is literally irrelevant to the consideration of Chad Jones's potential/ability and the way his career ended prematurely. What you're engaging in feels like a form of the gambler's fallacy (except in reverse).
how anybody at this point, with the benefit of hindsight, can defend Jerry Reese's drafts.
It boggles my mind how anybody, as a grown adult with the benefit of education, can confuse avoidance of logical fallacies in an argument with defending Jerry Reese's drafts.
RE: And again, why does the span of time matter? Â
Whether it goes back 2 years or 15 years, that's the number of people still on an NFL roster TODAY.
I don't understand why time span matters?
This year the Browns brought in 9 draft picks - five of those picks were in the top three rounds. The Packers and the Rams both had 11 draft picks. It doesn't make sense to compare these teams against other teams that may have only had 6 or 7 picks.
The Browns had more quality selections than most other teams this year, and the Packers/Rams had a greater quantity of selections than most other teams. So, without any other factors considered, their chances of having a greater number of players that will ultimately still be playing in the NFL a few years from now will naturally be higher.
You're looking at this as a debate about how good the Giants' draft selections have been, but you can't have a legitimate discussion about that issue just based on the list posted in the OP. Does that make sense to you?
that Chad Jones would have been the player to buck that trend.
That's consistent with my point, not yours. You have zero to go on to suggest he wouldn't. He's absolutely an incomplete. I have not once claimed that JR should get any special credit for the Jones pick, just that it's wrong to lump him in with the others. What befell Jones could have happened to any player (or person, really), regardless of what team drafted him, regardless of what round he was drafted in (if at all). That specific pick, while extremely unfortunate, cannot be considered a scouting or management failure - it's the very definition of unlucky.
RE: And again, why does the span of time matter? Â
Whether it goes back 2 years or 15 years, that's the number of people still on an NFL roster TODAY.
I don't understand why time span matters?
It matters depending on what point you are trying to make. If you show from 2013-2017 that few players still exist on a roster and it correlates with a team's success. Point made. If you show me a number going out 15 years, what point is being made? How many players even last 10-15 years. not many.
Does the statistic listed in the op shock anybody? Does it jump out as something that you'd say "wow, I never would have guessed that...."
If not, sometimes it just is what it is, with no further analysis necessary. Our drafts sucked under Jerry Reese and Marc Ross. That is now indisputable.
This is just further confirmation of that. Time to move forward.
even though he never played a down for us. But if you look back at all of Jerry Reese's 3rd round picks, there isn't really a valid reason to think he would have gone any different.
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
I agree. There’s no factual basis for assuming Chad Jones was going to be a good player for the Giants. I remember that year some had a 5th round grade on him.
It’s similar to the David Wilson situation. Plenty here think he would’ve been a stud but for the injury but there’s simply no data to support that conclusion.
Steve Smith injury was unlucky. Nicks injury was unlucky. Cruz injury was unlucky. All were proven studs prior to their respective injuries.
He did suffer the worst luck with young players suffering career ending/altering injuries: Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Kevin Boss, Jonathan Goff, Mario Manningham, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Chad Jones, David Wilson, and Jake Ballard. That is a lot of talent and had some of them stayed healthy, and had he never hired Marc Ross, his tenure could have been very different. Now he definitely deserved to be fired but that is a ridiculous amount of bad luck.
It still blows my mind that Reese never traded down once Â
This is what struck with me as well.
would like to see who is number 1 and how many picks they have still in league
Pretty big difference between the Giants and Saints on that list, 6 players is nearly an entire draft class, that is a fairly huge difference IMO.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
Doesn't really matter, does it?
Those are players that are currently on a roster somewhere in the NFL.
Whether it's 20 years or 5 years, we still have the fewest players left on a roster somewhere in the NFL.
Quote:
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
Good point, but I don't think they could be called misses (Wilson as well). They were talented and contributed. So was he very lucky in the early part of his tenure and extremely unlucky in the later? Ross was 'involved' from 2007 on and looking at those early drafts they had more success than later on.
Our WR corps is jinxed with the amount of talent we drafted, and could not resign due to catastrophic injuries.
This doesn’t show how good the “non-bad” picks were.
Someone mentioned the Saints so we’ll use them as an example. Last year they had a phenomenal draft — Lattimore, Ramcyk, Kamara, etc. For the purposes of this data, they’re essentially the same as Engram, Tomlinson, and Webb. All are still in the league. But no reasonable fan would believe those players are of equal value.
Quote:
In comment 14178276 Dinger said:
Quote:
to only have 6 fewer than the Saints tells me that, yes the draft can be a crap shoot. I was/am a big critic of Reese, but I also know he played an integral role in our last 2 superbowls. He was involved in getting us the likes of Jacobs, Tuck, bradshaw, Boss, Smith, etc. I'm not sure why he started missing badly (Ross? Mara?) but he was choosing some BPA(Wilson, Beckham...) and some by need (Pugh, Flowers, richburg). The fact that he missed on so many as well as with FA signings tells me that there had to be something else missing/wrong as well.
You forgot about the big players he did draft that had career-ending injuries. Kenny Philips, Nicks, Manningham, all had career-ending injuries
Good point, but I don't think they could be called misses (Wilson as well). They were talented and contributed. So was he very lucky in the early part of his tenure and extremely unlucky in the later? Ross was 'involved' from 2007 on and looking at those early drafts they had more success than later on.
Don't forget about guys like Chad Jones and Tyler Sash....
Lists like this just don't really provide enough information to assess the success of how a franchise drafted. For example, we would also need to know the span of time this list is covering along with the actual number of draft picks each team had to even start to make a valid comparison.
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
I don't understand why time span matters?
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
So because Jerry Reese had a poor history of 3rd round picks and Chad Jones was a third round pick, he gets lumped in as a bust despite the fact that his career was ultimately ended before he ever played a down, and was completely unrelated to his actual ability to play football.
Seems like a sound argument.
imiliar to 2004-2011 the Giants if they were smart could have been picking Front seven talent and OL help.
2008 — WR Mario Manningham: The best of Reese’s third-round picks by far. Had 211 career receptions, 160 in four seasons with the Giants. Oh, and one fairly significant 2011 Super Bowl catch.
2009 — WR Ramses Barden (trade up) and TE Travis Beckum: In four seasons with the Giants, Barden caught 29 passes and Beckum 26. Maybe that’s OK production for one player, but not two.
2010 — S Chad Jones: Never played in the NFL after a horrific car crash nearly cost him his life.
2011 — WR Jerrel Jernigan: Caught just 38 passes in four seasons. Could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract with the Giants ran out.
2012 — CB Jayron Hosley: Started just 15 games in four seasons, and never became a reliable player. Like Jernigan, could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract expired.
2013 — DE Damontre Moore: Never became the pass-rushing force the Giants hoped for, and was let go after a locker-room run in with then-teammate Cullen Jenkins. Has bounced from team to team since without being able to find a home.
2014 — DT Jay Bromley: The Giants took Bromley earlier than even Bromley expected to be selected. In three seasons, he has one sack and has yet to really even hint at why the Giants valued him more highly than it seemed anyone else did.
2015 — Odighizuwa: No sacks, no starts, lots of injuries, lots of time riding the pine. Now, an apparent hiatus.
2016 — S Darian Thompson: Played in two games, then landed on injured reserve with a foot injury.
Tell me why Chad Jones was going to buck the trend.
NFL Draft: Third round has been a black hole for New York Giants - ( New Window )
He had good athleticism but was raw (sound familiar?). It's not like he was a can't miss prospect.
He had good athleticism but was raw (sound familiar?). It's not like he was a can't miss prospect.
Yes, very familiar.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
2007 — DT Jay Alford: Had a sack of Tom Brady in the 2007 Super Bowl, but that was his only career highlight. Spent just two years with the Giants before a knee injury wrecked his career. Tried to make a comeback with the Oakland Raiders in 2010, but lasted only four games.
2008 — WR Mario Manningham: The best of Reese’s third-round picks by far. Had 211 career receptions, 160 in four seasons with the Giants. Oh, and one fairly significant 2011 Super Bowl catch.
2009 — WR Ramses Barden (trade up) and TE Travis Beckum: In four seasons with the Giants, Barden caught 29 passes and Beckum 26. Maybe that’s OK production for one player, but not two.
2010 — S Chad Jones: Never played in the NFL after a horrific car crash nearly cost him his life.
2011 — WR Jerrel Jernigan: Caught just 38 passes in four seasons. Could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract with the Giants ran out.
2012 — CB Jayron Hosley: Started just 15 games in four seasons, and never became a reliable player. Like Jernigan, could not find an NFL job after his rookie contract expired.
2013 — DE Damontre Moore: Never became the pass-rushing force the Giants hoped for, and was let go after a locker-room run in with then-teammate Cullen Jenkins. Has bounced from team to team since without being able to find a home.
2014 — DT Jay Bromley: The Giants took Bromley earlier than even Bromley expected to be selected. In three seasons, he has one sack and has yet to really even hint at why the Giants valued him more highly than it seemed anyone else did.
2015 — Odighizuwa: No sacks, no starts, lots of injuries, lots of time riding the pine. Now, an apparent hiatus.
2016 — S Darian Thompson: Played in two games, then landed on injured reserve with a foot injury.
Tell me why Chad Jones was going to buck the trend. NFL Draft: Third round has been a black hole for New York Giants - ( New Window )
Because every other pick listed here is literally irrelevant to the consideration of Chad Jones's potential/ability and the way his career ended prematurely. What you're engaging in feels like a form of the gambler's fallacy (except in reverse).
It boggles my mind how anybody, as a grown adult with the benefit of education, can confuse avoidance of logical fallacies in an argument with defending Jerry Reese's drafts.
I don't understand why time span matters?
This year the Browns brought in 9 draft picks - five of those picks were in the top three rounds. The Packers and the Rams both had 11 draft picks. It doesn't make sense to compare these teams against other teams that may have only had 6 or 7 picks.
The Browns had more quality selections than most other teams this year, and the Packers/Rams had a greater quantity of selections than most other teams. So, without any other factors considered, their chances of having a greater number of players that will ultimately still be playing in the NFL a few years from now will naturally be higher.
You're looking at this as a debate about how good the Giants' draft selections have been, but you can't have a legitimate discussion about that issue just based on the list posted in the OP. Does that make sense to you?
We have four draft picks still on our team from the past 10 years.
4. Out of 10 years worth of drafts.
That's consistent with my point, not yours. You have zero to go on to suggest he wouldn't. He's absolutely an incomplete. I have not once claimed that JR should get any special credit for the Jones pick, just that it's wrong to lump him in with the others. What befell Jones could have happened to any player (or person, really), regardless of what team drafted him, regardless of what round he was drafted in (if at all). That specific pick, while extremely unfortunate, cannot be considered a scouting or management failure - it's the very definition of unlucky.
I don't understand why time span matters?
It matters depending on what point you are trying to make. If you show from 2013-2017 that few players still exist on a roster and it correlates with a team's success. Point made. If you show me a number going out 15 years, what point is being made? How many players even last 10-15 years. not many.
If not, sometimes it just is what it is, with no further analysis necessary. Our drafts sucked under Jerry Reese and Marc Ross. That is now indisputable.
This is just further confirmation of that. Time to move forward.
in the Giants case, 2004
Tyler Sash? Did he get injured? He got suspended for substance abuse violation and then cut, right?
I agree. There’s no factual basis for assuming Chad Jones was going to be a good player for the Giants. I remember that year some had a 5th round grade on him.
It’s similar to the David Wilson situation. Plenty here think he would’ve been a stud but for the injury but there’s simply no data to support that conclusion.
Steve Smith injury was unlucky. Nicks injury was unlucky. Cruz injury was unlucky. All were proven studs prior to their respective injuries.
Not us.
There's no asterisk. He won two Super Bowls. Hard stop.
Keeping him on the roster all those years clinches it...