Last night was awful, lets be real the past 2 nights have been awful. I dont think it is Fizdales fault, he is trying to find the right combinations in the midst of a bunch of garbage.
Knox needs to start the rest of the season, he is going to have great plays and awful plays. Last night he showed some really good things. Knock down some shots and he got to the rim. Problem is when he gets to the rim if he does not get fouled he throwing up bad shots. He takes off to early and right now he has tunnel vision. He needs to start though and go through the lumps you can see the talent.
Robinson is a stud. He just needs to get stronger, j dont know if he has the offensive game in his arsenal to build off of but hia defensive game will make him a stud alone. Adams was pounding him but he did not back down and i thought he was the only center to play him tough.
Mudiay offensively i thought was fine but defensively he was garbage. this is the problem with the point guards, they are all good at 1 thing and suck at the other.
Trier: I wish he could play the point and had better vision because he can get into the paint at will and he plays tough defense.
I am torn on wanting to trade hardaway because i think he could be a good 3rd or 4th option but getting rid of that money opens up so much more oppurtunity for the knicks. Plus i think Dotson and trier are more than capable handling the shooting guard position once you have more scorers availableike KP...
i actually think Dotson fits in the starting lineup that fizdale started last night better than tkm but you can not yake out tim because of his scoring but that is the problem when you have a bunch of flawed young players...
plan going forward you have to forget anout durant and getting a max and wait until you add more young talent. Pronlem is KP comes back bext year, knox is better with tim and you probably are not bad enough to completely tank and you are capprd out. Part of the reason why i would entertain trading kp if someone offered you a haul of picks and young players
but it is not just about losing, it is also about developing players. If you tank and have no players develop you are still in the same shitty position like the suns or kings..
Tanking only gets you so far if none of the players develop
5 people matter on this roster: Frank, Knox, Trier, Robinson, KP. Maybe Dotson which would be 6.
Stop worrying about the performance of Tim Hardaway, Kanter, Mudiay, etc. Doesn't matter. Most are gone, and Tim should be on the bench. We know what he is, and that's a more sane more cowardly JR Smith.
Stay the course. I know it's easy to say trade Kanter, trade Lee, trade the Pride of Michigan. Unfortunately, you need to find trade partners for those contracts. (Lee being the most team friendly)
Wolves beat Pelicans
#roseishurtagain ...... #jimmybutlereffect
5 people matter on this roster: Frank, Knox, Trier, Robinson, KP. Maybe Dotson which would be 6.
Stop worrying about the performance of Tim Hardaway, Kanter, Mudiay, etc. Doesn't matter. Most are gone, and Tim should be on the bench. We know what he is, and that's a more sane more cowardly JR Smith.
umm frank is the big one, he looks awful...
first half was better in the 2nd half, 2nd half he forced some shots
The Knicks are going to have to be very creative and careful with how they handle this, but I just can't see any scenario in which he isn't back by some time in January at the latest.
You would think Mills has a good idea if he was thinking about coming because of how close he is to duranta business manager...
if anyone offered a draft pick for him i would do it...
If you needed to attach him to lee and you get a first back you have to do it
I believe he can develop scoring ability but he needs to shoot more to do it.
I believe he can develop scoring ability but he needs to shoot more to do it.
he has been told this constantly it is just not in his nature, he even passes up wide open shots...
What really sucks is if he could just develop a consistent shot and take the open ones he would be perfect at the 1 because of his defense...
I get that Frank doesn't seem to be coming along as fast as most want him too, but he's 20 and has been in the league for less than a year and a half. It takes years for many NBA players to develop. I'm not saying Frank is guaranteed to be good, but to write him off already doesn't make sense to me.
Also, and I'm mostly joking here, but I do find it interesting that Lance Thomas gets hurt and the Knicks suddenly start getting blown out.
I know Frank has been a trainwreck on offense but he's a very good defender. Maybe I'm being naive but his offense is just going to take time. I'm not opposed to sending him to the GLeague for a couple games to boost his offensive confidence. But if he's not, then he needs to play more minutes. And spare me the notion that Fizdale is holding guys accountable with playing time. He's starting Mudiay and Hardaway...
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Baker needs to play a little more. He brings some defensive IQ and overall makes things flow well out there. I'd like to see some Burke too just for his outside shooting.
If you have any chance to move Hardaway you do it. He's played pretty well so far but we all know how this act ends and he will fade. You can just what he does for a fraction of the cost he eats up your cap and he absolutely kills you on defense and with the worst ill advised shots.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
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If they shopped him around. Way too early to give up on the kid.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
His point had nothing to do with arguing that Frank was putting up good stats
Get us an expiring and a pick
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In comment 14178426 Oscar said:
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If they shopped him around. Way too early to give up on the kid.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
His point had nothing to do with arguing that Frank was putting up good stats
So his point is blind patience? He's been REALLY bad vs. the other members of... wait for it... the same draft class. He's been awful vs. his peers. That's the only point that is relevant. He was bad last year and looks WORSE this year. That's not a concern? At what point is it one? When are fans allowed to expect a guy with limited upside (which was said all along) to look even passable on the offensive end? Year 3?
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Unload salary and get back a decent piece
Get us an expiring and a pick
Works for me
I don’t remember who but at the trade deadline someone on the Knicks broadcast team mentioned that the player most asked about by other teams was Frank.
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No denying he’s been bad on offense. But he’s been really good/ great on defense. That counts for something. The outline of a decent offensive player is there, I just hope he puts it together soon. And I 100% think there would a strong trade market for him.
I don’t remember who but at the trade deadline someone on the Knicks broadcast team mentioned that the player most asked about by other teams was Frank.
Well who else would teams be asking about at the time? The roster was absolutely barren. Not exactly glowing praise. Which players on last years roster would teams have been intrigued by more than a top 10 pick in that draft?
Early on his touch on the 3pt was looking a little better but it went in the tank and has looked like garbage for awhile.
He has been better attacking the backseat this season, something he almost never did last season. He needs to work on his 3 pt shooting and if that can improve his overall game will look remarkably better.
One thing with Frank, along with his being so young, that factors in was that last season he was injured and missed the preseason. Coming to a new country and getting thrust into it like he was and then getting hurt I think set him back a lot. I think it's fair to assume his game will progress slower early on than a player coming from the NCAA
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If they shopped him around. Way too early to give up on the kid.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
Do you watch the games? The lack of patience shows your ignorance.
Taking that into consideration it seems that the same people don't realize that human beings often don't progress along a linear curve. There usually isn't an exact moment when a player "turns the corner" and suddenly becomes better. I agree that a player shouldn't be kept based on blind faith, but an athlete's progression is much more complex than some here seem to make it out to be.
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In comment 14178426 Oscar said:
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If they shopped him around. Way too early to give up on the kid.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
Do you watch the games? The lack of patience shows your ignorance.
I've seen every single game and Frank has been absolutely awful on offense. Ignorance? lol Comical. Even people defending him acknowledge how bad he's been on that end of the floor. Patience comes with improvement, not a player playing worse than the year prior.
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In comment 14178426 Oscar said:
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If they shopped him around. Way too early to give up on the kid.
One thing that consistently blows my mind is how little patience the Knicks fan base has. Basically all this franchise knows is losing and garbage basketball. They have been a joke for two decades now and have not won a title in nearly 50 years. What’s the rush? Why is everyone trying to run a 20 year old first round pick out of town in November of his second season? If any team has time to let Frank figure it out it should be the Knicks.
Most successful 2nd year players are showing more than Frank at this point. Sad but true. 2017 NBA draft Frank ranks 47th in WS/48 and 51st in VORP. He's been awful.
Do you watch the games? The lack of patience shows your ignorance.
do you? please explain from you have seen that shows imlrovement or there is cause for hope of him improving?
he still is passive, he can not turn the corner on a pick and roll, he still cant shoot, even his defense has not been lock down...
he has not improved 1 bit on offense
No
Taking that into consideration it seems that the same people don't realize that human beings often don't progress along a linear curve. There usually isn't an exact moment when a player "turns the corner" and suddenly becomes better. I agree that a player shouldn't be kept based on blind faith, but an athlete's progression is much more complex than some here seem to make it out to be.
And yet we are talking theoreticals... could he improve? Is it possible? Take his age into account? Sure. But SO FAR he has not improved in any facet of his offensive game, an area in which he was already well below average last season. We can only go based on a few things... athletic tools (he's not a freak athlete), on court growth (what can you point to on the offensive end?) and production (he hasn't produced). So far it is what it is. Could that change? Sure. But so far, the eyes and numbers tell the story.
I think the French Connection ran an atleast an hour and a half.
i dont think that will help him, he is just a passive player, even wide open he hesitates...I dont know what would change that
Fizz seems to favor Mudiay and Frank isn’t Perry’s guy and I doubt he ever develops offensively
I'm not a big stats guy like you are Dan, I just watch the games and form my opinions based on what I see. Frank is struggling anyone can see it, but there are intangibles that don't always show up in stats and I'm not ready to completely write him off just yet.
One more point about Frank, as I mentioned early in the thread, the Knicks were much more competitive when they were creating offense off of defense and Frank had a lot to do with that.
I think the French Connection ran an atleast an hour and a half.
Where was this suggested? Please point out quotes where I, or anyone else closed the door on future improvement. He's been bad. There is no couching it. He's been a very, very poor offensive player even vs. other members of the 2017 class.
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early in the season, but the last few weeks have been the worst he's looked on the Knicks(offensively). He was attacking early in the season and getting off some good shots, even when his shot wasn't falling. Now he just looks lost. I agree with those that think he would benefit from time in the G-League.
i dont think that will help him, he is just a passive player, even wide open he hesitates...I dont know what would change that
My thought would be that confidence could help. Going to the G-League and telling him to just attack all game long might help.
I'm not a big stats guy like you are Dan, I just watch the games and form my opinions based on what I see. Frank is struggling anyone can see it, but there are intangibles that don't always show up in stats and I'm not ready to completely write him off just yet.
One more point about Frank, as I mentioned early in the thread, the Knicks were much more competitive when they were creating offense off of defense and Frank had a lot to do with that.
steve can you point out these intangibles that you see? i am not calling youbbn out but i watch every single game, every single minute and i see nothing on the offensive end
I'm not a big stats guy like you are Dan, I just watch the games and form my opinions based on what I see. Frank is struggling anyone can see it, but there are intangibles that don't always show up in stats and I'm not ready to completely write him off just yet.
One more point about Frank, as I mentioned early in the thread, the Knicks were much more competitive when they were creating offense off of defense and Frank had a lot to do with that.
I actually care less about the numbers than SEEING something to get excited over. He had a few early season games where he looked more aggressive but I would suggest if you popped in a game of 2017 footage vs. this year you would be hard pressed to decipher which was which. That's my issue. I see praise for his hard work, saying the right things, gotta see something different on the court.
That said, this is the only way guys will improve and the team will figure out who is part of the long-term versus the now. If you have to rely on Hardaway to score 30 a night, you aren't going to win.
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On a different note, it seems to me like many people don't realize that sports aren't an exact science. There isn't one right way of doing things. Not to mention that in many instances a team can make many smart moves and still not win solely based on circumstance.
Taking that into consideration it seems that the same people don't realize that human beings often don't progress along a linear curve. There usually isn't an exact moment when a player "turns the corner" and suddenly becomes better. I agree that a player shouldn't be kept based on blind faith, but an athlete's progression is much more complex than some here seem to make it out to be.
And yet we are talking theoreticals... could he improve? Is it possible? Take his age into account? Sure. But SO FAR he has not improved in any facet of his offensive game, an area in which he was already well below average last season. We can only go based on a few things... athletic tools (he's not a freak athlete), on court growth (what can you point to on the offensive end?) and production (he hasn't produced). So far it is what it is. Could that change? Sure. But so far, the eyes and numbers tell the story.
First off 15 games is a very small sample size to be using to base viable opinions from. Regardless, I agree that at this moment things look bleak for Frank offensively. I also, actually, wouldn't be opposed to the Knicks moving Frank if they obtained a young cost controlled player who is proven to be significantly better. I don't believe that would happen though.
Asking the Knicks to trade Frank for a future first or to attach him to a bad salary seems like a lateral move to me. I disagree with the premise that some unknown future player has more upside than Frank. Again, if Frank's shot never progresses, then yes he will never be a contributing part of a contending team, but I still struggle with the sentiment that at this early stage of his career we can predict that his shot will never improve.
It would be like if the Giants had traded Eli in 2005 after 2 games because he played so poorly in 2004 and his completion percentage was less than 50% so far for the season.
he is trying way to hard to find the right combinations and trying to appease every player...
Rockets really need to get going. They're off to a bad, bad start. Paul starting to look his age too.
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I already said his 3pt shooting went into the tanks and looked like garbage right now. So his 29% this month is a direct correlation to his 3pt% being 13%, but in October with about 100 more minutes played than in November he shot 38% from 3pt range, so you can parse state any way you choose. All that pointing out Novembers stats exclusively accomplishes is to illustrate he is in a shooting funk which we all saw.
I'm not a big stats guy like you are Dan, I just watch the games and form my opinions based on what I see. Frank is struggling anyone can see it, but there are intangibles that don't always show up in stats and I'm not ready to completely write him off just yet.
One more point about Frank, as I mentioned early in the thread, the Knicks were much more competitive when they were creating offense off of defense and Frank had a lot to do with that.
steve can you point out these intangibles that you see? i am not calling youbbn out but i watch every single game, every single minute and i see nothing on the offensive end
His defense is his biggest factor and his long reach impacts a lot of the oppositions passing which helps his teammates elevate their defensive games. I also think he has shown that he has good instincts for making some nice inside passes that aren't easily made. Just glimpses at this point but some of his bounce passes took great instincts and vision. He just hasn't developed that part of his game near enough, but if it doesn't develop it would add a lot. Also although he looks lost right now, to start the season I think he displayed a nice touch on his 3pt shots. He needs work but I can see where at some point he could possibly get more consistent with that shot which would lead to his having more opportunities for him to attack the basket.
He has not been playing well right now, no arguments there, but IMO there are things to look at where he is worth keeping because if they those parts of his game did come together he would be a very good player. It's not easy to find guys with his reach, defensive instincts to build his game around. IMO it's worth giving him some time before simply dumping him. Especially when factoring in his age, coming from another country, and his being hurt for last season and missing his first preseason.
agreed 100 percent...
stick with knox and mitchell in the starting.lineup, hardaway is going to stay and as much as frank has been bad i would have no problem keeping him in...
frank hardaway knox vonleh until kp is back and robinson
Rockets really need to get going. They're off to a bad, bad start. Paul starting to look his age too.
Apparently Durant and Green walked into practice together this morning. Might mean nothing, but people pointed it out.
Give them credit for taking a shot. Ran into an all time team.
Good point. If they could find a dynamic scoring pg in the draft and Knox develops into a good scoring SF, and KP comes back healthy, then Robinson anchoring the defense at center along with Frank and his defense off the ball as a guard could be interesting.
Give them credit for taking a shot. Ran into an all time team.
Yes, agreed. Last year might have been their only one real bite at the apple & they came up just short.
Seems like the only decent guy is Garland, who shocked the world and went to Vanderbilt
Who? Garland? Hands? Sure as hell ain't Tre Jones.
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has 1 PG in the lottery in their new mock. That's how weak it is.
Who? Garland? Hands? Sure as hell ain't Tre Jones.
Yes. Garland #10.
I'd like to know why a five star HS recruit went to Vandy
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if you're picking in the 5-10 range.
I'd like to know why a five star HS recruit went to Vandy
Great school, local kid. Probably grew up a fan. Not going to knock someone for going to a non traditional powerhouse.
Fuck the blue bloods. Forge your own path.
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He absolutely has the stroke for a three. Let's see what he looks like with full strength and athleticism before giving up. And even as a pg, if he were shooting decently and had real strength, his ability to penetrate and kick off would improve.
He absolutely has the stroke for a three. Let's see what he looks like with full strength and athleticism before giving up. And even as a pg, if he were shooting decently and had real strength, his ability to penetrate and kick off would improve.
if it is any consolation in 2k19 he becomes a knock down shooter
And Shroder was toying with him last night, what studly defense are you talking about? He’s nothing but an 8th man in the rotation who gets in the passing lane once in a while.
At this point, right now, if given a choice of Trier or Frank going forward, who would you take? Sooner or later we have to cut down the rotation and let the future pieces sink or swim. I am not sure if I’d include Frank in that group.
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@ErikHorneOK
Steven Adams to David Fizdale during a stoppage: "Sub him (him being Enes Kanter) out. He can't play defense."
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8:34 PM - Nov 14, 2018
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I think he certainly brings some intangibles but I think Dan and others are correct in that he's been a major disappointment this season. What has really been disappointing from him this season is his hesitation to shoot the 3, not much improvement attacking or finishing and lack of defensive rebounding...
He was never projected to be anything special. We took a role player at best with a lottery pick.
If at 23 years old Frank can be 11 pts 5 assists, 3 rebounds whole shooting 35 percent from 3 with amazing defense then that would be awesome. He can get there and will get there.
I really think the Knicks should work on his 3 pt shot obvsouly but I would really work on his post up game ala mark Jackson who would run the offense out of the post. Then his lack of handle is irrelevant. He will be able to shoot over much smaller PGs and pass out of the post. Imagine Frankie posting up in 3 years with his vision and KP at top of 3 point line with no shot blocker in the paint for the other team.
They really need to consider using him in ways that fit his skill set. Let’s give the kid a break.
If nothing else you certainly are consistent.