Surprised Baldinger would have issue with this. Read 1 covered, Read 2 open enough to throw to. OBJ was Read 3. With all Eli has had in front of him this year are we really questioning him not getting to his 3rd read?
a bad line and Eli changing to a WCO under McAdoo. Fact is, how many reads can you make when you have 2-3 seconds on average to get a play off before you're sacked?
I don't think Eli will ever be a great WCO guy, and I think it was a critical mistake to go to the WCO with him, instead of fixing the offensive line and staying with KG's offense. Coughlin should have held his ground, and told the Mara's that we needed a GM who could actually draft starting Offensive Linemen, instead of a new OC.
Eli didn't have these problems with Gilbride's offense (there were other problems, and he had a better offensive line, but they should have listened to Gilbride when he said there was a critical need at OL).
If the FO was serious about going forward the with Eli, they should have made Gilbride the head coach, instead of selecting McAdoo. The end result of firing Kevin was to turn a Super Bowl winning QB into just another good QB.
Does a great job with these. Also like that he focuses on the NFL East.
Eli is definitely gun shy. Who can really blame him. More difficult than people realize to turn that mental clock on and off play to play especially at his age with diminished skills.
The long helium ball to Beckham was something I caught on the replay. The ball actually like 60 yards in the air. I thought Eli was slow getting back to the launch point further showing evidence of the diminished physical skill.
There are examples from every single team of plays like this on any given Sunday
100% correct and I wonder how many of the people up in arms know how to properly go through progressions... how the order is determined, AND realize that on 99% of plays you're not going to get the chance to scan through them all. Hell.. with our oline you're lucky to ever even get as far as the 2nd read.
this isn't Madden. What happens on previous plays and in previous games affects their decision making.
Even 99% of madden players can't scan the field, and usually lock on to their hot.
"Pro" players in fact, but that's why that game is trash, you can know absolutely nothing about football (can tell by their play calling) and be a god at it.
Surprised Baldinger would have issue with this. Read 1 covered, Read 2 open enough to throw to. OBJ was Read 3. With all Eli has had in front of him this year are we really questioning him not getting to his 3rd read?
1. He was under pressure.
2. He wasn't actually under pressure, but you can't blame him for BELIEVING he was under pressure.
3. His receiver ran the wrong route.
4. You don't know what the play design was. (i.e. Maybe he was supposed to ignore a wide open OBJ down the field. )
5. Every QB misses wide open receives a few times a game.
6. Every QB makes a few bad throws a game.
7. No QB could succeed behind this OL.
8. We won anyway, what are you upset about (not much use for this one lately).
9. You just hate Eli for some reason.
We are talking about a veteran who isn't seeing the field well, for whatever reason. That's a problem. And it probably happens multiple times in these games. For all the criticism of Shurmur this play seemed to work very well, EE is 1:1, OBJ moves through the zone and is wide open.
Everyone rails about how OBJ is immature, but if you are him and you are this open - and you can clearly see that the QB is not under pressure - would you blame him for being upset?
...as a result to the Brown signing, that delivers a pro level player to the right side of the OL. He now has a pocket to step up into which has made Solder a better OT and created a new clock for Eli to adjust to.
He can take another beat and another look without fear he will get the ball chopped out of his hand while loading up to throw.
This will get better with each game. Look at it as Daylight Saving Time for Eli Manning.
You gotta find the right pieces. It can't built overnight. This team was never in win-now mode. You just can't slap 5 guys together and say "job well done." Until they got the big uglies situated, this offense would sputter. Brown seems like a nice piece. Hernandez will work through his troubles. Hopefully Solder will play at least average. Then they will have to look at C and RT. This offseason, they can go back to FA and the draft see what they could find. I wasn't buying what Gettleman was selling. Although we all knew this would be a work in progress, I didn't think it would be this bad. Win-now? Never. At least compete and build up your forces? Absolutely.
Let’s see if this Oline can continue its decent play from last week. I’d like to see more improvement in run blocking however. I think this Tampa front is pretty good and so it should be a good test at home.
By some are astronomical. This was one play, in slow motion replay. Game speed is different. Where is a breakdown of the 19 completions and 3 touchdown passes?
according to ESPN Eli has not even been one of the 10 most pressured QB's in the league this year.
The OL has been horrific in run blocking but merely below average in pass blocking. Top 10 Most Pressured QB's - ( New Window )
Is there a way to see blitz percentage for QBs?
Defenses are getting pressure on Eli with 4-man rushes consistently all game leaving 7 guys in coverage.
Defenses don't have to bring the house because it only gives a better chance to our receivers. In fact, Eli's rating has been great against the blitz-- it's just that teams don't have to.
Eli has the Tied for the 4th fastest release time and Tied for the most sacks. That tells you a lot.
By some are astronomical. This was one play, in slow motion replay. Game speed is different. Where is a breakdown of the 19 completions and 3 touchdown passes?
That doesn't get people talking, your twitter attention, or the haters ammo.
according to ESPN Eli has not even been one of the 10 most pressured QB's in the league this year.
The OL has been horrific in run blocking but merely below average in pass blocking. Top 10 Most Pressured QB's - ( New Window )
Liked your chart above. Gotta take some issue with this list though. As mentioned later on in the comments Eli was #12, which puts him barely off the top ten, and furthermore, many of these top 10 QB's are holding the ball significantly longer than Eli. Eli's at 2.6 seconds average time to release, which is tied for third quickest in the NFL and only .03 seconds longer than the quickest. Here are how the other most pressured QB's compare:
And the least pressured QB's?
Roethlisberger - 2.58 (-0.02)
Brees - 2.57 (-0.03)
Flacco - 2.71 (.11)
Stafford - 2.7 (.1)
Brady - 2.61 (0.1)
Luck - 2.61 (0.1)
All the least pressured QB's are getting rid of the ball between 2.58 and 2.71 seconds after the snap. Eli is one of the outliers in that range - along with guys like Rosen, Mariota and Carr.
It's unfair to say the pass protection is middle of the pack. It's clear it's among the worst 5-6 worst OL in the league at providing protection to the QB. Maybe not as bad as AZ, TN, or Oak, but it's up there.
Another thing that doesn't get mentioned in these discussions... Â
could be coaching philosophy. Baldy discusses it early on. He doesn't know what is being taught or what's expected. I would think that in part Eli is learning to dump off quickly because he's been hit so much. But part of it could be the emphasis on completion percentage. I know that Shurmur spoke about comp % early this year quite a bit. He also has a history of improving QB comp %.
Remember Anish? He used to talk about how Eli's numbers were always off because Gilbride's system was more complex and the emphasis was not so much on the short, controlled passing game. He wondered how Eli's stats would look in a more QB rating passer-friendly system.
Well, Eli's numbers look a lot better in some ways. High completion %. Low INT's.
Unfortunately, low TD numbers and very low YPA. That's the trade off.
How much of the quick dump-off is due to a shell-shocked Eli, and how much of it is due to coaching/system expectations?
You're right Eli is NOT a WCO QB, he's a play-action, stand-and-deliver QB. You can see the after-effects of this quick release, high percentage training ...
In the WCO, he is trained to look at the "sure" short throw first, then long. The pounding he gets for not being mobile reinforces that option.
In film study, he looks incompetent.
The addition of Brown is a big plus; he stops the opponent's rush with ease and switches to secondary blocks smoothly.
Hernandez is going to be very good because of his natural strength, he just needs to get much lower to multiply his effect.
1. He was under pressure.
2. He wasn't actually under pressure, but you can't blame him for BELIEVING he was under pressure.
3. His receiver ran the wrong route.
4. You don't know what the play design was. (i.e. Maybe he was supposed to ignore a wide open OBJ down the field. )
5. Every QB misses wide open receives a few times a game.
6. Every QB makes a few bad throws a game.
7. No QB could succeed behind this OL.
8. We won anyway, what are you upset about (not much use for this one lately).
9. You just hate Eli for some reason.
10. The playcalling is not designed for his strengths 11. His receiver should have caught that ball thrown behind/over his head 12. The receiver stopped running 13.Reese and Ross etc etc
Oh thats right, its because Eli was failing in the old offense as well!
The Giants didnt randomly change the offense on s 2-time SB winning QB.
They changed it because the Giants started 0-6 and were ranked 28th in offense and it led to John Mara's famous "the offense is broken" comments and firing of Kevin Gilbride and changing of every other offensive player. and coach. Eli had just 18 TD to a league leading 27 INTs and missed playoffs for second straight year.
So lets not act like Giants threw a dart at a board that said WCO and said "hey lets change it up".
So, you're completely ignoring what Gilbride said?
Quote:
“Back in 2009 I started to argue that the line was getting old and 2010 we were getting beat up, we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 even when we won the Super Bowl there were multiple guys getting hurt and banged up, and by 2012 we went 9-7 but we were hanging on by dear life,” Gilbride said. “We were hanging onto that windowsill with our fingernails. When 2013 happened and there were six different starters at running back, three different at right guard, four different at center, three at left guard. That stuff’s been going on for a while now.
“This isn’t just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.”
So, tell me all the all pro offensive linemen Reese drafted?
That's right, you can't. Any decent ones came through free agency, and there were plenty of duds. And yes, Eli has gotten worst, but you don't want to fact the facts that we have had crap at OL for a long time, despite throwing picks and FA money at the position.
Fact: The Giants used a second-round pick on left tackle Will Beatty in 2009. They didn’t use another high draft pick on the offensive line until taking Justin Pugh in the first round of the 2013 NFL Draft.
Fact: In 2009, the David Diehl-Rich-Seubert-Shaun O’Hara-Chris Snee-Kareem McKenzie offensive line was intact.
Fact: O’Hara played only six games in 2010 and then retired due to injury. Seubert, who fought though multiple injuries, also retired after 2010. McKenzie retired after the 2011 season. Diehl hung on through 2013, but his last couple of seasons were regrettable. Snee played only three games in 2013 due to injuries, then retired after an aborted 2014 comeback attempt.
Fact: A full three-year gap existed before the Giants attempted to add a significant piece to the line.
A GM who has a franchise QB, and either does nothing or is incompetent in protecting the franchise QB needs to be fired. If you're upset, be upset at Mara, who was too stubborn to face all the facts, and let Reese waste the end career of the best QB the Giants ever had.
is why the team put in a WCO, because Reese was incompetent. It had nothing to do with Eli, the team could not pass protect or run the ball like they did under Gilbride's system.
When the foundation (the OL) for Kevin's system decayed, so did the offense. Gilbride told people what the problem was, but that didn't look good for the GM. Ever since Kevin was fired, and Eli forced to change to a new system (even to the point where he had to change his mechanics), he hasn't been the same QB.
I'll quote Rich Cannon's remarks to the NY Post:
Quote:
But former quarterback Rich Gannon, an NFL MVP, described it as a “very uncomfortable and difficult process” ahead.
“That’s why when you look at Peyton Manning’s success, you look at Tom Brady’s success, Aaron Rodgers’ success, Drew Brees’ success, they all are in one system, essentially,” Gannon told the New York Post. “Not a lot of new learning. That’s important when you look at that position. So there’s risk involved when you take a guy like Eli, who’s so established in his career and has had great success, now all of a sudden you make a dramatic change.”
Again, this did not need to happen, if we had a competent GM at the helm who could draft offensive linemen.
https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1063144349985374209 - ( New Window )
https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1063154328024858624 - ( New Window )
He really doesn't trust he has the time to go through his progressions, its first read and dump off.
Quote:
the left or center of the field. he doesn't get through progressions anymore and his pre-snap awareness is shit
He really doesn't trust he has the time to go through his progressions, its first read and dump off.
Agreed.
Whatever else you think of Eli's career, He has always been a Top 3 QB on Film Study thru Pre Snap---- I don't understand the drop off.
I don't think Eli will ever be a great WCO guy, and I think it was a critical mistake to go to the WCO with him, instead of fixing the offensive line and staying with KG's offense. Coughlin should have held his ground, and told the Mara's that we needed a GM who could actually draft starting Offensive Linemen, instead of a new OC.
Eli didn't have these problems with Gilbride's offense (there were other problems, and he had a better offensive line, but they should have listened to Gilbride when he said there was a critical need at OL).
If the FO was serious about going forward the with Eli, they should have made Gilbride the head coach, instead of selecting McAdoo. The end result of firing Kevin was to turn a Super Bowl winning QB into just another good QB.
Eli is definitely gun shy. Who can really blame him. More difficult than people realize to turn that mental clock on and off play to play especially at his age with diminished skills.
The long helium ball to Beckham was something I caught on the replay. The ball actually like 60 yards in the air. I thought Eli was slow getting back to the launch point further showing evidence of the diminished physical skill.
No bueno - ( New Window )
100% correct and I wonder how many of the people up in arms know how to properly go through progressions... how the order is determined, AND realize that on 99% of plays you're not going to get the chance to scan through them all. Hell.. with our oline you're lucky to ever even get as far as the 2nd read.
Even 99% of madden players can't scan the field, and usually lock on to their hot.
"Pro" players in fact, but that's why that game is trash, you can know absolutely nothing about football (can tell by their play calling) and be a god at it.
/thread
But you can't reason with enraged casuals
2. He wasn't actually under pressure, but you can't blame him for BELIEVING he was under pressure.
3. His receiver ran the wrong route.
4. You don't know what the play design was. (i.e. Maybe he was supposed to ignore a wide open OBJ down the field. )
5. Every QB misses wide open receives a few times a game.
6. Every QB makes a few bad throws a game.
7. No QB could succeed behind this OL.
8. We won anyway, what are you upset about (not much use for this one lately).
9. You just hate Eli for some reason.
Everyone rails about how OBJ is immature, but if you are him and you are this open - and you can clearly see that the QB is not under pressure - would you blame him for being upset?
He can take another beat and another look without fear he will get the ball chopped out of his hand while loading up to throw.
This will get better with each game. Look at it as Daylight Saving Time for Eli Manning.
That's the same play.
The OL has been horrific in run blocking but merely below average in pass blocking.
Top 10 Most Pressured QB's - ( New Window )
Huh? Who is? Eli?
You're saying Eli purposely didn't hit OBJ when he was wide open as some sort of revenge for his comments?
Exactly. This happens to every team, every game.
The OL has been horrific in run blocking but merely below average in pass blocking. Top 10 Most Pressured QB's - ( New Window )
Is there a way to see blitz percentage for QBs?
Defenses are getting pressure on Eli with 4-man rushes consistently all game leaving 7 guys in coverage.
Defenses don't have to bring the house because it only gives a better chance to our receivers. In fact, Eli's rating has been great against the blitz-- it's just that teams don't have to.
Eli has the Tied for the 4th fastest release time and Tied for the most sacks. That tells you a lot.
That was a bad look and I m not so certain it happens in every game to every quarterback.
That was a touchdown turned into a forced inc.
https://www.giants.com/video/all-touchdowns-from-giants-vs-49ers
How dumb can u be
That doesn't get people talking, your twitter attention, or the haters ammo.
The OL has been horrific in run blocking but merely below average in pass blocking. Top 10 Most Pressured QB's - ( New Window )
Liked your chart above. Gotta take some issue with this list though. As mentioned later on in the comments Eli was #12, which puts him barely off the top ten, and furthermore, many of these top 10 QB's are holding the ball significantly longer than Eli. Eli's at 2.6 seconds average time to release, which is tied for third quickest in the NFL and only .03 seconds longer than the quickest. Here are how the other most pressured QB's compare:
Watson- 3.13 (.53 seconds longer than Eli)
Rosen - 2.61 (.01)
Wilson - 2.96 (.36)
Prescott - 3.01 (.41)
Osweiler - 2.78 (.18)
Mahomes - 2.85 (.25)
Darnold - 2.84 (.24)
Bortles - 2.78 (.18)
Mariota - 2.62 (.02)
Carr - 2.61 (.01)
And the least pressured QB's?
Roethlisberger - 2.58 (-0.02)
Brees - 2.57 (-0.03)
Flacco - 2.71 (.11)
Stafford - 2.7 (.1)
Brady - 2.61 (0.1)
Luck - 2.61 (0.1)
All the least pressured QB's are getting rid of the ball between 2.58 and 2.71 seconds after the snap. Eli is one of the outliers in that range - along with guys like Rosen, Mariota and Carr.
It's unfair to say the pass protection is middle of the pack. It's clear it's among the worst 5-6 worst OL in the league at providing protection to the QB. Maybe not as bad as AZ, TN, or Oak, but it's up there.
Remember Anish? He used to talk about how Eli's numbers were always off because Gilbride's system was more complex and the emphasis was not so much on the short, controlled passing game. He wondered how Eli's stats would look in a more QB rating passer-friendly system.
Well, Eli's numbers look a lot better in some ways. High completion %. Low INT's.
Unfortunately, low TD numbers and very low YPA. That's the trade off.
How much of the quick dump-off is due to a shell-shocked Eli, and how much of it is due to coaching/system expectations?
Even Baldy admits he doesn't know.
One of the most thoughtful posts in a LONG time.
You're right Eli is NOT a WCO QB, he's a play-action, stand-and-deliver QB. You can see the after-effects of this quick release, high percentage training ...
In the WCO, he is trained to look at the "sure" short throw first, then long. The pounding he gets for not being mobile reinforces that option.
In film study, he looks incompetent.
The addition of Brown is a big plus; he stops the opponent's rush with ease and switches to secondary blocks smoothly.
Hernandez is going to be very good because of his natural strength, he just needs to get much lower to multiply his effect.
2. He wasn't actually under pressure, but you can't blame him for BELIEVING he was under pressure.
3. His receiver ran the wrong route.
4. You don't know what the play design was. (i.e. Maybe he was supposed to ignore a wide open OBJ down the field. )
5. Every QB misses wide open receives a few times a game.
6. Every QB makes a few bad throws a game.
7. No QB could succeed behind this OL.
8. We won anyway, what are you upset about (not much use for this one lately).
9. You just hate Eli for some reason.
The Giants didnt randomly change the offense on s 2-time SB winning QB.
They changed it because the Giants started 0-6 and were ranked 28th in offense and it led to John Mara's famous "the offense is broken" comments and firing of Kevin Gilbride and changing of every other offensive player. and coach. Eli had just 18 TD to a league leading 27 INTs and missed playoffs for second straight year.
So lets not act like Giants threw a dart at a board that said WCO and said "hey lets change it up".
There is a reason the WCO was put in place.
“This isn’t just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.”
So, tell me all the all pro offensive linemen Reese drafted?
That's right, you can't. Any decent ones came through free agency, and there were plenty of duds. And yes, Eli has gotten worst, but you don't want to fact the facts that we have had crap at OL for a long time, despite throwing picks and FA money at the position.
Fact: The Giants used a second-round pick on left tackle Will Beatty in 2009. They didn’t use another high draft pick on the offensive line until taking Justin Pugh in the first round of the 2013 NFL Draft.
Fact: In 2009, the David Diehl-Rich-Seubert-Shaun O’Hara-Chris Snee-Kareem McKenzie offensive line was intact.
Fact: O’Hara played only six games in 2010 and then retired due to injury. Seubert, who fought though multiple injuries, also retired after 2010. McKenzie retired after the 2011 season. Diehl hung on through 2013, but his last couple of seasons were regrettable. Snee played only three games in 2013 due to injuries, then retired after an aborted 2014 comeback attempt.
Fact: A full three-year gap existed before the Giants attempted to add a significant piece to the line.
A GM who has a franchise QB, and either does nothing or is incompetent in protecting the franchise QB needs to be fired. If you're upset, be upset at Mara, who was too stubborn to face all the facts, and let Reese waste the end career of the best QB the Giants ever had.
When the foundation (the OL) for Kevin's system decayed, so did the offense. Gilbride told people what the problem was, but that didn't look good for the GM. Ever since Kevin was fired, and Eli forced to change to a new system (even to the point where he had to change his mechanics), he hasn't been the same QB.
I'll quote Rich Cannon's remarks to the NY Post:
“That’s why when you look at Peyton Manning’s success, you look at Tom Brady’s success, Aaron Rodgers’ success, Drew Brees’ success, they all are in one system, essentially,” Gannon told the New York Post. “Not a lot of new learning. That’s important when you look at that position. So there’s risk involved when you take a guy like Eli, who’s so established in his career and has had great success, now all of a sudden you make a dramatic change.”
Again, this did not need to happen, if we had a competent GM at the helm who could draft offensive linemen.