Is a win really so bad? By all indications this isn’t really a strong year for QB prospects anyway, and I’m sure we will still be in position to draft a top defender or o-lineman. I think 2020 should be the year we look towards drafting a QB.
Football seasons have such a finite amount of games to experience. This game was fun, and I enjoy any wins the Giants can muster. I don’t believe winning really hurts us draft-wise this season, so let’s enjoy the wins.
I look all year to these games, and I can’t fathom being upset with a win in a game as exciting as this.
Thank-you Sy.
Moew importantly, the Giants are still trying to win games while the Raiders are openly tanking.
Exactly. Especially with a new regime.
Wins = progress. This isn’t the nba and even then, the win still goes a long way.
The giants have been mired in a shit bath. They simply have to win and right the ship or it won’t improve. Win games. That’s it.
That s not really foolish...... is it?
Amen brother.
Keep evaluating, keep teaching. Loved the piece by Spielman about Shurmur showing Barkley other great RBs running North/South. He sure did it today.
Seemed Brown and Hernandez were opening holes today that Barkley could use.
In order to improve the Giants need to make major changes
Subtle tweaks will not work
Winning not only reduces the chance of getting a premiere player but it reinforces a false narrative
In two weeks the Giants draft position has gone from 1 to 5-6
The Jets now draft before the Giants
I hate when the Giants lose, but, I hate more the thought of having to go through another year of this awful play
I am in favor of anything that makes the Giants a championship team
Exactly. My philosophy as a fan in a season like this is I want to win each week, but I don't get worked up over a loss
And it looks like Chubb and Fitzpatrick will be stud All PRo or at least Pro Bowl types as well. Both of those guys were rated ahead of the QBs if peopel were being honest.
IMO forcing a QB pick is always a mistake.
Lastly without a solid OL you arent winning shit.
Name the QB better than Andrew Luck since he was drafted. No OL and no running back. BPA again. and with the studs coming out on the DL its need meets rating thankfully again this year
Yes this horse is beat to death but Reese and his staff rarey found them. Reese and Ross were horrific after RD one and were hit and miss there. Gettleman's first draft seems to have been good to very good. He does well again this team will be OK
But the Reese drove the franchise into the mess its in.
Statistically the earlier a player is drafted the greater chance of his being an impact player
This has been documented and is empirical
There are always teams that are outliers and they are successful despite drafting low this is the exception and not the norm
The best way to improve a team is through the draft so draft position is important
Statistically the earlier a player is drafted the greater chance of his being an impact player
This has been documented and is empirical
There are always teams that are outliers and they are successful despite drafting low this is the exception and not the norm
The best way to improve a team is through the draft so draft position is important
None of this changes the fact that the last GM sucked.
Every other team found players and yest starter level players all over the draft. Reese after RD 1 barely found special teamers.
Its this type of excuse that people used to alibi for the last group. Your post is an over simplification.
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I think the hope going forward should be for more wins as well as smart picks regardless of draft position. Teams like the Saints seem to find premier players no matter where they are drafting. I dont think a high pick guarantees anything.
Yes this horse is beat to death but Reese and his staff rarey found them. Reese and Ross were horrific after RD one and were hit and miss there. Gettleman's first draft seems to have been good to very good. He does well again this team will be OK
But the Reese drove the franchise into the mess its in.
A lot of it is scouting too......Scouts have a tough job, but in order to find those late rounders that can be contributors the Scouts have to really have an eye for talent.
By the way I was rooting for . a victory today. I m convinced Giants are not going quarterback in first round and this season that is only thing that would get me rooting for losses at this pt.
Now if they lose next two, at 9'losses I might be back rooting for losses.
NEVER....
root for a loss.
EVER.
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In comment 14182601 Keaton028 said:
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I think the hope going forward should be for more wins as well as smart picks regardless of draft position. Teams like the Saints seem to find premier players no matter where they are drafting. I dont think a high pick guarantees anything.
Yes this horse is beat to death but Reese and his staff rarey found them. Reese and Ross were horrific after RD one and were hit and miss there. Gettleman's first draft seems to have been good to very good. He does well again this team will be OK
But the Reese drove the franchise into the mess its in.
A lot of it is scouting too......Scouts have a tough job, but in order to find those late rounders that can be contributors the Scouts have to really have an eye for talent.
Agree. along with marrying skill set to scheme. But lets face it. late rounders is 4th or even 5ht round or later. The parade of stiffs in Rds 2 and 3 were a hallmark of Reese and Ross. Jernigan Hosely Marvin Austin etc
Draft picks are equity that can used or traded for other assets
There is a value to each selection
A team has a better chance to improve with more and better picks
No, it's not, and I will tell you why:
1) With each win, we miss on valuable time to potentially evaluate Lauletta;
2) With each win, this coaching staff and GM potentially believe that Eli is the answer in 2019, so we will endure another horrific season next year; and
3) The top prospects often resided at the top of the draft. That is not always the case, but it is often the case. You think you're getting a guy like Bosa or Williams between 5-10? Because that is where we are headed right now.
2) 2019 might not be the year to get a QB. Seems to be a weak pool.
3) The Giants will likely still be picking within the top ten range anyway
I say enjoy the wins when they come.
However, I AM worried that if we string a few wins together at the end, the Giants FO will misinterpret the season and think the team is relatively fine, just in need of a few tweaks.
Draft picks are equity that can used or traded for other assets
There is a value to each selection
A team has a better chance to improve with more and better picks
No one is saying that more and higher picks are not more valuable. The stats alos show most players picked don't make it. Cleveland has had all kinds of early picks due to trades. Why do they still suck? You need to pick the right players. Something even the best GMs and scouts don't always do
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is downright foolish.
No, it's not, and I will tell you why:
1) With each win, we miss on valuable time to potentially evaluate Lauletta;
2) With each win, this coaching staff and GM potentially believe that Eli is the answer in 2019, so we will endure another horrific season next year; and
3) The top prospects often resided at the top of the draft. That is not always the case, but it is often the case. You think you're getting a guy like Bosa or Williams between 5-10? Because that is where we are headed right now.
Greedy or Jonah? Both should be there between 5-10.
That's really what this comes down to. Fans want the feel good and will use any justification they can to argue for it. It's fine for fans to fell that way, but arguing that it's also good football management is what people take objection to.
That s not really foolish...... is it?
What about the teams that started off a season badly only to see those same teams rip off 8 in a row while salvaging something tangible? Do we ignore those teams?
Statistically the earlier a player is drafted the greater chance of his being an impact player
This has been documented and is empirical
There are always teams that are outliers and they are successful despite drafting low this is the exception and not the norm
The best way to improve a team is through the draft so draft position is important
Bullshit. What’s important is finding quality players over the course of the draft. If it was as simple as draft position there would constantly be a rotating door of good and bad teams. That’s obviously not the case.
I'm fearful of our team being in QB Hell. I am so glad to see SB do well. ANd so glad to see OBJ do well last week with the TD's.
And when they're happy I enjoy. But my head tells me we're going to be nothing for the next 5 years unless the GMen get an above average QB. Those fears cannot be squashed no matter how much homerism some of you have.
There are those who believe that the draft position is irrelevant and that winning is the only objective
Nobody likes loosing but the NFL rewards bad teams with priority draft picks to create a balance of power and to help teams improve
All things being equal, it is easier to improve a team with better picks
This is the way that the system is structured , it rewards poor play and punishes mediocrity
If we start winning games, things are going right. There are improvements to the ayes and coaching that we can build on next year. For example solder starts playing near his contract level, the rookies start contributing.
If we ended up with 2 wins nothing went right and we have very little to build on for next year.
Beating TB with that mess on both sides of the ball (and barely winning it)?
It doesn’t help us. Right now, the NYG are a bottom of the heap crew.
When they get started next year these 2 wins won’t mean a damn thing.
But the 5+ slots in the draft we lost could. Doesn’t have to be about the QB. We need a new roster. The high picks could have been used to get it. The 2 wins wind get shit.
Beating TB with that mess on both sides of the ball (and barely winning it)?
It doesn’t help us. Right now, the NYG are a bottom of the heap crew.
When they get started next year these 2 wins won’t mean a damn thing.
But the 5+ slots in the draft we lost could. Doesn’t have to be about the QB. We need a new roster. The high picks could have been used to get it. The 2 wins wind get shit.
If we don't win another game we will still be picking top three.
If we do win some more games against better competition, it will show we have more to build on for next rear.
That is the logic that the Giants used in thinking that this was a good team and could compete this year
This is a very bad team . The defense is awful at all levels and the offense has arguably the worst line in football
There needs to be wholesale changes
Maybe we trade down for several picks.
And then we have the top pick in every other round.
Winning these 2 games, won’t mean shit in a few days and even less in April....and much less on opening day 2019.
It was great seeing Eli play better. Barkley is a once in a lifetime type player and he showed that again. But the win vs that awful TB team? Not much there to “build on”.
Don't tell me these wins are "that" bad.
You guys are clueless.
They don’t give a shit about draft positions.
Players aren’t tanking. Nobody is asking them to tank.
The value of every spot in the top 5 is huge.
But we may have 3-5 wins to build on? Yipeeee
If we start winning games, things are going right. There are improvements to the ayes and coaching that we can build on next year. For example solder starts playing near his contract level, the rookies start contributing.
If we ended up with 2 wins nothing went right and we have very little to build on for next year.
But this is the same philosophy that caused Jerry Reese to not draft OLinemen. How can you bury your head in the sand so shortly after you saw what Reese did?
Wins = progress. This isn’t the nba and even then, the win still goes a long way.
Jerry Reese felt the same way you did when eh saw Gemn make a run at the end of 1 year and felt his OLine was good enough because he was getting wins. He got fired in part because of his failure in believing wins showed progress too-- didn't he?
Some of you need to grow up and stop being such homers. Every situation is different. But recently you saw Reese's philosophy that same as you cite-- yet you saw it failed. And yet you want to blindly follow that same type of thinking even though you've seen it fail?
OFC sometimes it does help. But you're blindly following a catch[phrase that deep down you've seen proven to be untrue. Yet you want to call others "idiots?"
Players aren’t tanking. Nobody is asking them to tank.
So what are you bitching about then? I know how much it costs to move up in the draft and I know higher picks are better picks. So outside of that lesson in Football draft 101, what’s your point?
The draft isn’t the end all be all. If it was bad teams wouldn’t be staying bad like they are in this league (raiders, Browns, bills, jets, etc). I bet they all can’t wait to fight for the #1 pick.......again.
Really?
This is nothing but an exchange about what is best for a football team, draft pick vs a few wins.
That’s what I thought it was. Maybe it’s more for some.
Shurmur may not be the right coach in the end, but I think it’s way too early to tell right now. The team is playing for him.
And extending Eli.
The best thing for this team is not Eli finding the fountain of youth. It’s seeing if Lauletta can play.
Against the hideous Bucs at home, today would have been ideal to go with KL...
GT has the only actual argument for losing and that’s to full rid us of the culture that may hang on if we perform adequately. But you are bitching about picking 5th instead of 3rd, and somehow come to the conclusion that we will be doomed because of it.
A well played game on both sides of the ball against a decent opponent - even with some flaws - is something to build on, and could make it more clear where areas of improvement are necessary and which players might deserve a greater role in the rebuild moving forward.
A fluke win, or a win like today over a terrible opponent doesn't really accomplish much more than ruining draft position and convince the management of the team that they're better than they are.
It's cliche that the goal is to win championships. Everyone has that goal, only one team succeeds every year. The real objective is to build a team that's a consistent winner, that has good players who are well prepared by the staff and can compete with anyone. If they're winning en route to being that team on a consistent basis against solid opposition, then screw the draft position. If they're winning because the opposing teams can't pull their heads out of their asses, then no good will come from it.
If the Giants play better football from here on out, eke out another 4-5 wins, preferably against an opponent who doesn't have a worse record than they do - then it's a good thing.
I love how Eli played and that was nice to see.
Barkley? Wow. He’s a winner.
But I know this team is lost. Talent is sub par at several key spots including every level of D and the OL.
Winning the game today? I think It will be 1 of maybe 4 wins and it doesn’t help anything. Just my opinion.
I wasn’t “rooting” for them to lose. I understand why fans want win. I just don’t think it helps in any way which is what I thought we were talking about here.
Moving from 4th to 1st or 2nd overall would cost a couple of picks - I don't think practically speaking the "we didn't quit" value overrides the cost of an extra pick or two.
Not to mention - that's moving down a few spots in every round. That not only makes it harder to bring down a blue chip player in RD1 at a position of need, it makes it harder to hit in every subsequent round.
Wrong. Try again.
And the best thing about this is....
You “call me out” while posting this...
Wait...posters with a counter argument are “clueless” according to you?
You've been spot on with all your posts. Keep it up. What I see here is certain posters trying to twist your words.
This is very basic math, and it has nothing to do with what position you want.
The top pick in the draft is worth more than the 4th or 5th. Much more. Using the draft value chart, it's the equivalent of a 12th overall pick difference to go from 4th to 1st overall.
Can the Giants get a good player at 4 or 5? Probably. If you remember the name Cedric Jones, you know exactly what the risk of drafting 5th overall is.
Do the Giants lose out if they have the 1st pick in this draft and there's no QB worthy of drafting? Hell no - they'd get their pick of position players, and if someone else wanted a QB enough - they could trade back and pick up draft capital for the 2020 draft.
In short - there's an immense value to drafting higher. It's measurable, and you can use it tangibly to rebuild the team. You can't compare it to the intangible value of a few victories over poor opponents and how that contributes to team culture.
Truly brilliant.
Along with your BS about me calling casual posters “idiots” which didn’t happen.
But your statement of “you guys are clueless” did happen.
No offense -- but I think you are making this up.
And to be honest, all that math goes out the window next week if they manage to thrash the Eagles. Nothing would make me happier, actually.
Just like the whole 2018 draft debate, though - can't really measure the severity of these wins/losses until well after the season is over. If it turns out there's a player the Giants really covet and they just miss him because of one of these wins, the debate will be very different from how it would shape up if there are several players who grade out similarly for the picking at the spot.
I thought last year they had worse talent. That's why this year they were season projected for 6-7 wins. Last year they were crushed with injuries.
IMO it has nothing to do with effort. We're a bad football team nwo and back then.
Agreed. I think it's also hard to accept that even inside the top 10, you're not guaranteed anything, but the chances of a bust pick up pretty quickly once you get past the top 3-5 players in the draft.
That's what made that Cedric Jones pick so G-D painful. All the Giants needed was for Lawrence Phillips not to be a complete shitbag and get picked in the top 4, and instead, things broke perfectly wrong for the Giants and they ended up with the one eyed DE.
We have been in games this year. We haven’t closed them out, and I think alot of it had to do with getting used to the new system and just gelling as a unit. I could be wrong, but the play-calling has seemed better, focusing more on running the ball and setting up play-action.
We were an injury-plagued team last year that had enough talent to make it to the playoffs the year prior. We are a completely new team this year that is trying to find it’s identity.
And, by the way in no way am I arguing that we are a bad football team. We are. I just see a team full of players that are still playing for their coach in my eyes, and I think that has value. Thats all.
I could be wrong, but the play-calling has seemed better, focusing more on running the ball and setting up play-action.
Has it been? Yes, we’ve recently looked competent against the 9ers and the Bucs, our expected peers at the top of the 2019 draft. But for the Bucs in particular every team looks good. They are allowing almost 35 ppg. They are the on the verge of being historically bad defensively.
And it’s a helluva lot easier to play when Ryan Fitzpatrick is so magnanimous with his turnovers...