For the guys focusing on the draft position...

In comment 14182635 Archer said:

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Draft position makes a huge difference Statistically the earlier a player is drafted the greater chance of his being an impact player This has been documented and is empirical There are always teams that are outliers and they are successful despite drafting low this is the exception and not the norm The best way to improve a team is through the draft so draft position is important

Bullshit. What’s important is finding quality players over the course of the draft. If it was as simple as draft position there would constantly be a rotating door of good and bad teams. That’s obviously not the case.

But realistically I want them to get a top tier Qb and unless they can get one in Free Agency then I have an incredible fear of being in that QB Hell position.

I'm fearful of our team being in QB Hell. I am so glad to see SB do well. ANd so glad to see OBJ do well last week with the TD's.

And when they're happy I enjoy. But my head tells me we're going to be nothing for the next 5 years unless the GMen get an above average QB. Those fears cannot be squashed no matter how much homerism some of you have.

What is the best thing that the Giants can do to improve the team?

There are those who believe that the draft position is irrelevant and that winning is the only objective

Nobody likes loosing but the NFL rewards bad teams with priority draft picks to create a balance of power and to help teams improve

All things being equal, it is easier to improve a team with better picks

This is the way that the system is structured , it rewards poor play and punishes mediocrity

The teams at the top of the draft are in worse shape and it is much harder for them to become competitive

If the Giants end up with 6 wins they are a better team than if they ended up with 2. People act like they are the same team but they aren't.

If we start winning games, things are going right. There are improvements to the ayes and coaching that we can build on next year. For example solder starts playing near his contract level, the rookies start contributing.

If we ended up with 2 wins nothing went right and we have very little to build on for next year.

SF with a 3rd stringer and barely winning it?

Beating TB with that mess on both sides of the ball (and barely winning it)?

It doesn’t help us. Right now, the NYG are a bottom of the heap crew.

When they get started next year these 2 wins won’t mean a damn thing.

But the 5+ slots in the draft we lost could. Doesn’t have to be about the QB. We need a new roster. The high picks could have been used to get it. The 2 wins wind get shit.

In comment 14183065 KWALL2 said:

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SF with a 3rd stringer and barely winning it? Beating TB with that mess on both sides of the ball (and barely winning it)? It doesn’t help us. Right now, the NYG are a bottom of the heap crew. When they get started next year these 2 wins won’t mean a damn thing. But the 5+ slots in the draft we lost could. Doesn’t have to be about the QB. We need a new roster. The high picks could have been used to get it. The 2 wins wind get shit.

If we don't win another game we will still be picking top three.

If we do win some more games against better competition, it will show we have more to build on for next rear.

To think that winning games against bad teams has value is a scary thought

That is the logic that the Giants used in thinking that this was a good team and could compete this year

This is a very bad team . The defense is awful at all levels and the offense has arguably the worst line in football

There needs to be wholesale changes

Maybe we get a qb.

Maybe we trade down for several picks.

And then we have the top pick in every other round.

Winning these 2 games, won’t mean shit in a few days and even less in April....and much less on opening day 2019.

It was great seeing Eli play better. Barkley is a once in a lifetime type player and he showed that again. But the win vs that awful TB team? Not much there to “build on”.

just to move up 3 spots to get Eli! And it's not like the Chargers didn't get a franchise QB in the deal.

Don't tell me these wins are "that" bad.

even the raiders played to win today (and did).

You guys are clueless.

No NFL player will tank.

They don’t give a shit about draft positions.

“We,d”

Players aren’t tanking. Nobody is asking them to tank.

Traded 2 #3s and a 4th to move from 3 to 2 to get Trubisky.

The value of every spot in the top 5 is huge.

But we may have 3-5 wins to build on? Yipeeee

In comment 14183064 ron mexico said:

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If the Giants end up with 6 wins they are a better team than if they ended up with 2. People act like they are the same team but they aren't. If we start winning games, things are going right. There are improvements to the ayes and coaching that we can build on next year. For example solder starts playing near his contract level, the rookies start contributing. If we ended up with 2 wins nothing went right and we have very little to build on for next year.

But this is the same philosophy that caused Jerry Reese to not draft OLinemen. How can you bury your head in the sand so shortly after you saw what Reese did?

In comment 14182519 djm said:

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would actually be rooting against progress. Wins = progress. This isn’t the nba and even then, the win still goes a long way.

Jerry Reese felt the same way you did when eh saw Gemn make a run at the end of 1 year and felt his OLine was good enough because he was getting wins. He got fired in part because of his failure in believing wins showed progress too-- didn't he?

Some of you need to grow up and stop being such homers. Every situation is different. But recently you saw Reese's philosophy that same as you cite-- yet you saw it failed. And yet you want to blindly follow that same type of thinking even though you've seen it fail?

OFC sometimes it does help. But you're blindly following a catch[phrase that deep down you've seen proven to be untrue. Yet you want to call others "idiots?"

In comment 14183135 KWALL2 said:

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“We,d” Players aren’t tanking. Nobody is asking them to tank.

So what are you bitching about then? I know how much it costs to move up in the draft and I know higher picks are better picks. So outside of that lesson in Football draft 101, what’s your point?

The draft isn’t the end all be all. If it was bad teams wouldn’t be staying bad like they are in this league (raiders, Browns, bills, jets, etc). I bet they all can’t wait to fight for the #1 pick.......again.

Thinks a win ALWAYS = progress.

Anything. How about u.

Who is clueless here?

Not the guy saying this “If that were the case we’d tank no questions asked”?

Really?

Are you saying we should be rooting against the Giants and overall today was a negative?

.

And the Giants are the only team I passionately follow. The off-season is long. I want to see my team do well, and lately wins have become a rarity. A good management will get their guy regardless of where we are drafting. I refuse to root against the Giants, especially if the 2019 QB class isn’t a deep one

You don’t care who I root for.

This is nothing but an exchange about what is best for a football team, draft pick vs a few wins.

That’s what I thought it was. Maybe it’s more for some.

Not because of draft position, but because finishing 5-11 might deceive ownership into thinking this team is well managed and well coached.

I actually respect your posts, and discussion is all I’m trying to generate. Certainly, not trying to antagonize. I am just trying to understand the mindset of those who see today as a negative. Thats all.

Coaching may be turning a corner. It’s still too early to tell, and if I remember correctly, many successful coaches here started slow. I think the offensive play calling has certainly been better.

Shurmur may not be the right coach in the end, but I think it’s way too early to tell right now. The team is playing for him.

In comment 14183244 Go Terps said:

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Not because of draft position, but because finishing 5-11 might deceive ownership into thinking this team is well managed and well coached.

And extending Eli.

The best thing for this team is not Eli finding the fountain of youth. It’s seeing if Lauletta can play.

Against the hideous Bucs at home, today would have been ideal to go with KL...

you are a really bad poster. You are calling people idiots who are causally giving you solid counter arguments. You aren’t some pioneer of a progressive new way of doing things. You are simply repeating the same thing over and over again and asking for us to see it your way even though your strategy has yielded horrible results for many franchises.

GT has the only actual argument for losing and that’s to full rid us of the culture that may hang on if we perform adequately. But you are bitching about picking 5th instead of 3rd, and somehow come to the conclusion that we will be doomed because of it.

but - I don't want fluke wins or wins over terrible teams.

A well played game on both sides of the ball against a decent opponent - even with some flaws - is something to build on, and could make it more clear where areas of improvement are necessary and which players might deserve a greater role in the rebuild moving forward.

A fluke win, or a win like today over a terrible opponent doesn't really accomplish much more than ruining draft position and convince the management of the team that they're better than they are.

It's cliche that the goal is to win championships. Everyone has that goal, only one team succeeds every year. The real objective is to build a team that's a consistent winner, that has good players who are well prepared by the staff and can compete with anyone. If they're winning en route to being that team on a consistent basis against solid opposition, then screw the draft position. If they're winning because the opposing teams can't pull their heads out of their asses, then no good will come from it.

I think starting Lauletta now, especially when Eli is playing well, signals to the team you aren’t interested in winning. And how does that look to guys like Saquon or Odell, guys who aren’t ready to give up? Many have said winning fosters a winning culture. I think Shurmur needs this if he’s to be a successful coach here.

but in the grand scheme of things - if the Giants end up 5-11 or 4-12, then this win really didn't accomplish anything positive.

If the Giants play better football from here on out, eke out another 4-5 wins, preferably against an opponent who doesn't have a worse record than they do - then it's a good thing.

An empty win.

I love how Eli played and that was nice to see.

Barkley? Wow. He’s a winner.

But I know this team is lost. Talent is sub par at several key spots including every level of D and the OL.

Winning the game today? I think It will be 1 of maybe 4 wins and it doesn’t help anything. Just my opinion.

I wasn’t “rooting” for them to lose. I understand why fans want win. I just don’t think it helps in any way which is what I thought we were talking about here.

I replied to the comment about idiots not wanting the win. That was said before my post.

But even if they only get to 4 wins they’ll still be picking rather high. And at least they won’t appear as the quitters they were last season. That’s something to build on. I think that has some value.

In comment 14183269 Keaton028 said:

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But even if they only get to 4 wins they’ll still be picking rather high. And at least they won’t appear as the quitters they were last season. That’s something to build on. I think that has some value.

Moving from 4th to 1st or 2nd overall would cost a couple of picks - I don't think practically speaking the "we didn't quit" value overrides the cost of an extra pick or two.

Not to mention - that's moving down a few spots in every round. That not only makes it harder to bring down a blue chip player in RD1 at a position of need, it makes it harder to hit in every subsequent round.

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You are calling people idiots who are causally giving you solid counter arguments.

Wrong. Try again.

And the best thing about this is....

You “call me out” while posting this...

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You guys are clueless.

Wait...posters with a counter argument are “clueless” according to you?

Just wondering, but do you see the possibility of the Giants not securing that first or second pick as a bad thing because it takes them out of the running for the one QB who may be good? If so I can understand this argument. If not, I don’t believe it matters as much because the Giants need help at multiple spots, and can let the draft come to them in a sense. Good lineman and Edge Rushers will likely still be there with the 4th or 5th pick. As the rounds progress, it becomes a bit less important too as every pick is a gamble. If you are shooting for the QB though, then I understand.

that I higher draft pick is better than a lower one. If only we can hire you in the front office we’d be saved.

In comment 14183235 KWALL2 said:

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You've been spot on with all your posts. Keep it up. What I see here is certain posters trying to twist your words.

In comment 14183279 Keaton028 said:

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Just wondering, but do you see the possibility of the Giants not securing that first or second pick as a bad thing because it takes them out of the running for the one QB who may be good? If so I can understand this argument. If not, I don’t believe it matters as much because the Giants need help at multiple spots, and can let the draft come to them in a sense. Good lineman and Edge Rushers will likely still be there with the 4th or 5th pick. As the rounds progress, it becomes a bit less important too as every pick is a gamble. If you are shooting for the QB though, then I understand.

This is very basic math, and it has nothing to do with what position you want.

The top pick in the draft is worth more than the 4th or 5th. Much more. Using the draft value chart, it's the equivalent of a 12th overall pick difference to go from 4th to 1st overall.

Can the Giants get a good player at 4 or 5? Probably. If you remember the name Cedric Jones, you know exactly what the risk of drafting 5th overall is.

Do the Giants lose out if they have the 1st pick in this draft and there's no QB worthy of drafting? Hell no - they'd get their pick of position players, and if someone else wanted a QB enough - they could trade back and pick up draft capital for the 2020 draft.

In short - there's an immense value to drafting higher. It's measurable, and you can use it tangibly to rebuild the team. You can't compare it to the intangible value of a few victories over poor opponents and how that contributes to team culture.

With the win is better than a loss routine.

Truly brilliant.

Along with your BS about me calling casual posters “idiots” which didn’t happen.

But your statement of “you guys are clueless” did happen.

Even though we’ll disagree with the value of the wins, your point stands and I appreciate the civil discussion.

In comment 14183269 Keaton028 said:

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And at least they won’t appear as the quitters they were last season.

No offense -- but I think you are making this up.

Did they not seem to quit last year? Do they seem to have quit this year?

It's tough watching the Giants lose. To voluntarily suggest they should do it more often is really not something I enjoy.

And to be honest, all that math goes out the window next week if they manage to thrash the Eagles. Nothing would make me happier, actually.

Just like the whole 2018 draft debate, though - can't really measure the severity of these wins/losses until well after the season is over. If it turns out there's a player the Giants really covet and they just miss him because of one of these wins, the debate will be very different from how it would shape up if there are several players who grade out similarly for the picking at the spot.

I appreciate the post but It isn’t certain posters. It’s one.

The Eagles don’t look like world beaters, and the play-calling has been better. If they can be successful with the run next week and provide a bit of pressure, a win is possible.

It just is silly when they use Odell at 12 as some kind of catch-all response to preferring a higher draft slot, as if it's routine to get one of the two or three best players in the draft at 12.