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Great win today, but getting ripped up the middle...

M.S. : 11/18/2018 5:03 pm
...by Peyton Barber got me thinking about dumping Snacks Harrison for a song and a dance.

When we had him this season, teams averaged 114 yards rushing per game on 26.6 carries (4.28 yards per carry).

Without Snacks, teams are averaging 152 yards rushing on 30.7 carries (4.97 yards per carry).

Detroit is giddy.

Without Snacks, teams were averaging 139 yards rushing per game on 26.2 carries (5.32 yards per carry).

With Snacks, the Lions have closed the jail door with teams rushing for only 104 yards per game on 25.7 carries (4.02 yards per carry).

As we enter the off-season, we have a big fucking problem with our pass rush and now add to that a big fucking problem with our run defense.

But, hey, three cheers for our offensive line! They got the job done today... and then some! Amazing how Eli and Barkley perform when the O-line outperforms its opponent!
No Snacks  
jeff57 : 11/18/2018 5:06 pm : link
No stops
Have to agree that  
section125 : 11/18/2018 5:07 pm : link
Snacks made a huge difference in the middle. Tomlinson is not Snacks, and Tomlinson's replacement at DE is a downgrade. So two spots weakened.
We also lack the personal  
Bluesbreaker : 11/18/2018 5:09 pm : link
to run this defense .
No true NT or LB's Free safety also a need .
nobody making tackles Collins had 11 to lead but
we only remember the whiff and the deep coverage
dumping Snacks looks like a really bad move  
Vanzetti : 11/18/2018 5:13 pm : link
Getting gashed up the middle by the running game. Then the Lbers and safty have to play up opening up the middle of the field for the passing game, which is exactly what we are seeing.

Reaslly bad move imo
The hapless performance  
joeinpa : 11/18/2018 5:16 pm : link
By the defense puts a serious damper on the hope for an extended winning streak here
RE: dumping Snacks looks like a really bad move  
Mad Mike : 11/18/2018 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14182604 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Getting gashed up the middle by the running game. Then the Lbers and safty have to play up opening up the middle of the field for the passing game, which is exactly what we are seeing.

Reaslly bad move imo

Judging the Snacks trade by the performance of the D without him is pretty staggeringly missing the point. Maybe it was a good trade, maybe not, but the 2018 defense is pretty irrelevant to that evaluation.
Go back and watch  
Eman11 : 11/18/2018 5:19 pm : link
Some of the games earlier when Snacks was in there. I'm not saying the guys now are as good but they were getting gashed with Snacks too.

IMO, the interior DL is doing their jobs but the ILB's are not. They're either overpusuing or just flat out getting blocked out of the play. A D like this is predicated on the ILB's making tackles and they're not getting it done.
I’d hardly call it great  
UberAlias : 11/18/2018 5:36 pm : link
.
RE: RE: dumping Snacks looks like a really bad move  
Vanzetti : 11/18/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 14182621 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 14182604 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Getting gashed up the middle by the running game. Then the Lbers and safty have to play up opening up the middle of the field for the passing game, which is exactly what we are seeing.

Reaslly bad move imo


Judging the Snacks trade by the performance of the D without him is pretty staggeringly missing the point. Maybe it was a good trade, maybe not, but the 2018 defense is pretty irrelevant to that evaluation.



Wtf are talking about? Teams running up the middle with no Snacks is irrelevant?

That’s like saying sacks have nothing to do with whether JJ Watt is a good player

The ILB play  
Dave on the UWS : 11/18/2018 5:43 pm : link
was abysmal today. Snacks wouldn’t have helped much,
RE: Go back and watch  
Simms11 : 11/18/2018 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14182625 Eman11 said:
Quote:
Some of the games earlier when Snacks was in there. I'm not saying the guys now are as good but they were getting gashed with Snacks too.

IMO, the interior DL is doing their jobs but the ILB's are not. They're either overpusuing or just flat out getting blocked out of the play. A D like this is predicated on the ILB's making tackles and they're not getting it done.


The LBers are getting washed out of plays or not filling gaps properly and making tackles. I also see them overpursue and take themselves out of plays. Another issue is the OLBs not setting the edge properly either. Martin keeps getting himself in poor position to make plays. He’s also crashing down and getting caught in the wash too frequently. OV used to be a good run defender. Maybe the Giants should go back to more 4-3 looks?
This is  
noro9 : 11/18/2018 5:52 pm : link
a very bad team that squeaked out a win against a equally bad team.
RE: RE: Go back and watch  
Eman11 : 11/18/2018 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14182700 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14182625 Eman11 said:


Quote:


Some of the games earlier when Snacks was in there. I'm not saying the guys now are as good but they were getting gashed with Snacks too.

IMO, the interior DL is doing their jobs but the ILB's are not. They're either overpusuing or just flat out getting blocked out of the play. A D like this is predicated on the ILB's making tackles and they're not getting it done.



The LBers are getting washed out of plays or not filling gaps properly and making tackles. I also see them overpursue and take themselves out of plays. Another issue is the OLBs not setting the edge properly either. Martin keeps getting himself in poor position to make plays. He’s also crashing down and getting caught in the wash too frequently. OV used to be a good run defender. Maybe the Giants should go back to more 4-3 looks?


That's what I'm seeing as well. I don't think the DT's are playing badly or are the problem. Granted, the interior would be even better with Snacks inthere but it's not like they went from a super model to a skank. The interior guys in there now are good players IMO.
Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
Brown Recluse : 11/18/2018 7:26 pm : link
But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?
RE: Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/18/2018 7:30 pm : link
In comment 14182924 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?



When your offense is off the field in 45 seconds does that hurt the run d?


This team was better with Snacks. Not arguable
The run D  
Joey in VA : 11/18/2018 7:36 pm : link
Has been bad all year, and it's not really the front 3, it's more about the LBs not maintaining gaps and reading their keys up front. Olivier Vernon has been especially bad at this, when BJ Hill or the DE on his side is doubled and crashed inside, he HAS to maintain leverage in his gap and he's shooting the gaps instead. The DT (not the NT) who is usually Hill and sometimes Edwards jr. has gap integrity to maintain but they can be doubled and blocked down. When that happens the OLB on that side HAS to stand his ground, not shoot the gap or twist inside of where the DT was. Vernon keeps trying to cheat for the big stop and he ends up hanging the MLBs out to dry because they have to cover for him and then any cutback absolutely kills us inside.

So the MLB on his side has to watch the gaps in front of him, he fills if the doubles kicks the DT in assuming the OLB has filled his lane enough to make the cutback lane non existent. It never is, they get gashed inside because the OLB shoots the empty space (not his job) and the MLB slides to protect (his job but then a cutback gets him killed). All it takes is one OL reaching the second level to obliterate that front when the OLB funks it all up. Vernon was absolutely trash vs the run the past two weeks and Hill still doesn't screw down vs. the double team well. I don't what the Giants call it, but the screw down is when you're doubled you basically hit the deck and make a mess instead of being shoved out of the gap. Bettcher may not be asking them to do that since he likes the one gap team approach to run stopping, the problem is it takes EVERYONE buying in to do it and we don't have that right now.
RE: RE: Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
Brown Recluse : 11/18/2018 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14182936 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 14182924 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?




When your offense is off the field in 45 seconds does that hurt the run d?


This team was better with Snacks. Not arguable


This team is 3-7.
RE: The run D  
GeorgeAdams33 : 11/19/2018 3:50 am : link
In comment 14182948 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Has been bad all year, and it's not really the front 3, it's more about the LBs not maintaining gaps and reading their keys up front. Olivier Vernon has been especially bad at this, when BJ Hill or the DE on his side is doubled and crashed inside, he HAS to maintain leverage in his gap and he's shooting the gaps instead. The DT (not the NT) who is usually Hill and sometimes Edwards jr. has gap integrity to maintain but they can be doubled and blocked down. When that happens the OLB on that side HAS to stand his ground, not shoot the gap or twist inside of where the DT was. Vernon keeps trying to cheat for the big stop and he ends up hanging the MLBs out to dry because they have to cover for him and then any cutback absolutely kills us inside.

Great post

So the MLB on his side has to watch the gaps in front of him, he fills if the doubles kicks the DT in assuming the OLB has filled his lane enough to make the cutback lane non existent. It never is, they get gashed inside because the OLB shoots the empty space (not his job) and the MLB slides to protect (his job but then a cutback gets him killed). All it takes is one OL reaching the second level to obliterate that front when the OLB funks it all up. Vernon was absolutely trash vs the run the past two weeks and Hill still doesn't screw down vs. the double team well. I don't what the Giants call it, but the screw down is when you're doubled you basically hit the deck and make a mess instead of being shoved out of the gap. Bettcher may not be asking them to do that since he likes the one gap team approach to run stopping, the problem is it takes EVERYONE buying in to do it and we don't have that right now.
Great post  
GeorgeAdams33 : 11/19/2018 3:51 am : link
.
RE: Go back and watch  
chopperhatch : 11/19/2018 4:15 am : link
In comment 14182625 Eman11 said:
Quote:
Some of the games earlier when Snacks was in there. I'm not saying the guys now are as good but they were getting gashed with Snacks too.

IMO, the interior DL is doing their jobs but the ILB's are not. They're either overpusuing or just flat out getting blocked out of the play. A D like this is predicated on the ILB's making tackles and they're not getting it done.


Eman....my dude....you nail it on Yanks threads and here. The Dline is giving tacklers clear shots on the ball carriers. The linemen (Hill, D.Tom., Edwards and Mauro) are fine. The LBs are awful. People have been lauding Goodson.... he's been awful. Ogletree, aside from his "look what I found" pick 6 has been shitty since the gate. Tae Davis had a couple big gaffs, but has played pretty well for a UDFA guy who is built like a SS.

I honestly would give Collins some money to switch to LB like Mark Barron/Roy Williams. Collins is so fantastic in the box but maxxed out when asked to play in space. Like not just lost....but SO lost
RE: RE: Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
chopperhatch : 11/19/2018 4:18 am : link
In comment 14182936 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 14182924 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?




When your offense is off the field in 45 seconds does that hurt the run d?


This team was better with Snacks. Not arguable


Its certainly arguable because u have no idea what was going on behind the scenes attitude-wise.

Plus robbieballs posted numbers of the diff btwn Snacks in vs. out and its negligible.
Every NFL fan in the world...  
M.S. : 11/19/2018 6:08 am : link

...knows the Giants LBers are the VERY WORST.

But you're not watching the games if you think everything is OK upfront since Snacks got dumped for a song and a dance.

Our front 7 sucks. And when you combine that with Landon Collins' coverage skills, you've got one big ugly mess on defense. Can't win with these guys.
RE: RE: Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2018 7:35 am : link
In comment 14182936 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 14182924 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?




When your offense is off the field in 45 seconds does that hurt the run d?


This team was better with Snacks. Not arguable


Probably but it certainly isn’t definitive. And it’s more than just the play on the field, if he was one of the shitty personalities that we didn’t want here anymore than it’s a net positive.
What Joey said +1  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2018 7:47 am : link
Trade down, draft LBs, OLs, maybe a big TE and some dbacks.

We already have a pile of picks. Try to trade down and up to garner 10+ between top if round 2 and bottom of round 4 or 5.

3 lbs, 3 OL, 3 DBs, and a legit two way TE .
Maybe one more big DT just in case  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2018 7:52 am : link
Never say never on a playmaking DT
Outside of getting a few nice bounces of the ball into their hands  
Jimmy Googs : 11/19/2018 8:35 am : link
lately, the Linebackers have been kind of a joke in supporting run and pass defense. Making guys like Barber and O.J. Howard look like pro bowlers seem to be the norm...
RE: RE: RE: Go back and watch  
NikkiMac : 11/19/2018 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14182796 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14182700 Simms11 said:


Quote:


In comment 14182625 Eman11 said:


Quote:


Some of the games earlier when Snacks was in there. I'm not saying the guys now are as good but they were getting gashed with Snacks too.

IMO, the interior DL is doing their jobs but the ILB's are not. They're either overpusuing or just flat out getting blocked out of the play. A D like this is predicated on the ILB's making tackles and they're not getting it done.



The LBers are getting washed out of plays or not filling gaps properly and making tackles. I also see them overpursue and take themselves out of plays. Another issue is the OLBs not setting the edge properly either. Martin keeps getting himself in poor position to make plays. He’s also crashing down and getting caught in the wash too frequently. OV used to be a good run defender. Maybe the Giants should go back to more 4-3 looks?



That's what I'm seeing as well. I don't think the DT's are playing badly or are the problem. Granted, the interior would be even better with Snacks inthere but it's not like they went from a super model to a skank. The interior guys in there now are good players IMO.



When snacks was here the Giants were allowing 6.7 yards on first down
maybe the defensive game plan was to  
jcp56 : 11/19/2018 3:13 pm : link
stop big passing plays at the expense of run defense.

Besides the inexcusable late, long TD to Evans, Evans, Deshaun Jackson and OJ Howard didn't kill us. The Tampa receivers are very good. Maybe we wanted to extend drives assuming that Tampa would turn it over the more plays they needed.
RE: Every NFL fan in the world...  
Eman11 : 11/19/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14183367 M.S. said:
Quote:

...knows the Giants LBers are the VERY WORST.

But you're not watching the games if you think everything is OK upfront since Snacks got dumped for a song and a dance.

Our front 7 sucks. And when you combine that with Landon Collins' coverage skills, you've got one big ugly mess on defense. Can't win with these guys.


What I was saying was it's not like they went from a great run D to a bad one once Snacks left. They were getting gashed with him here too, and IMO, a lot of that is on the LB's not being good or disciplined.

I feel we still have good players on the interior of the DL and with better LB play it would show more. It's easy to blame Hill and Tomlinson because they're the first line of defense but I've seen our LB's either in the wrong gaps, overpusuing, or getting blocked out of far too many plays.
RE: RE: RE: Maybe the run defense was a little better with Snacks  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/19/2018 8:32 pm : link
In comment 14183085 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 14182936 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 14182924 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


But it still wasnt good. Certainly not for what he was being paid. So who cares?




When your offense is off the field in 45 seconds does that hurt the run d?


This team was better with Snacks. Not arguable



This team is 3-7.


Sorry. The defense was better with him. Better? He
Was the best NT on the team. Anyone thinking the D is better without him or that trading him has let to the two wins a a moron.

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