Eli Manning's current pace:
Completion percentage: 69.1 (career best)
Passing yards: 4,471 (2nd best career total)
Touchdowns: 21
Interceptions: 10 (career best)
Passer rating: 96.5 (career best)
Number of times sacked: 57 (career high)
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/EWULukW.jpg[/IMG]
Ralph Vacchiano Twitter - (
New Window )
50% of BBI will say it is in garbage time and against bad teams.
the rest of the 25% will just nod and go along.
50% of BBI will say it is in garbage time and against bad teams.
the rest of the 25% will just nod and go along.
Hey that adds up to over 100% ???
Link - ( New Window )
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50% of BBI will say he could come back
50% of BBI will say it is in garbage time and against bad teams.
the rest of the 25% will just nod and go along.
Hey that adds up to over 100% ???
Yogi Berra would approve.
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
My dream scenario would be for them to win out, make the playoffs, win 1 or 2 playoff games this year. Then win it all next year and Eli walks away on top as an indisputable HOFer.
I'm going to miss him when he's gone, but would love for him to finish like that.
They're also better this year about handing it off in the redzone to the best RB in football... instead of slinging it MacAdoo style.
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
There's a difference when you have a high completion percentage and the offense struggles to score points most weeks.
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In comment 14183682 Doomster said:
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
There's a difference when you have a high completion percentage and the offense struggles to score points most weeks.
Totally agree.
The problem was we were comparing Eli - who was running a highly charge offense back then- to guys who were sputtering along like Eli is now.
Almost like picking and choosing............
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
Why do bbi'ers want Alex Smith?
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In comment 14183682 Doomster said:
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
Why do bbi'ers want Alex Smith?
LOL...we don't want it.
But he was one of the comparables - to INTs/Comp %/etc for Eli when Eli was slinging it and scoring points....but didn't have those measurables that everyone wanted.............
You are correct, franchise QB's are hard to find. Look at what we had to do to get Eli (big trade).
Very challenging.
In comment 14183775 Cariboo said:
The wildcard is there draft and if we dont like the QBs maybe they do just bring Eli back one more time and turn to 2020 for a QB.
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
All I am going to say about completion %, we bitched in the past about other QBs having such a high % and Eli's being low or lower......well, how do you think most of those guys had high percentages???
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
Gilbride with his option route stems 15 yards down the field. "ELI SUCKS INNACURATE WHY HE THROW IT TO NO ONE THERE!"
This is spot on. Eli is far from perfect and has definitely struggled. But he can still play QB in this league. It wasn't long ago that people were ready to shovel dirt on Big Ben, Rivers and even Brees. Team fortunes change very quickly in this league...And look around the league at some of the quarterback play. How does 80 million guaranteed Kirk Cousins look?
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Overwhelming theme in these parts that the draft over the next two seasons will bring the Giants a starting QB. Lets jettison Eli because hes old and cant run. Youve all been spoiled and will find out soon enough that replacing Eli will turn into the toughest thing this organization will have to take on in decades. Just wait.
This is spot on. Eli is far from perfect and has definitely struggled. But he can still play QB in this league. It wasn't long ago that people were ready to shovel dirt on Big Ben, Rivers and even Brees. Team fortunes change very quickly in this league...And look around the league at some of the quarterback play. How does 80 million guaranteed Kirk Cousins look?
The thing is they need to replace him at some point, and the ideal scenario is sooner rather than later.
He hasn't proved over the last 25 starts that he can consistently play QB good enough in today's NFL to take a team to the playoffs.
The wildcard is there draft and if we dont like the QBs maybe they do just bring Eli back one more time and turn to 2020 for a QB.
I think there is some middle ground between "near perfect conditions" and 57 sacks.
It's a very select few that complete that high a % and aren't checking down, but instead throwing it down the field.......
Seems like common sense, yet most people people wanted a philosophy change to fix our offensive woes. Boost the completion percentage and our offense gets back on track.
The talk after 2012 and 2013 was not getting help on the line to get Gilbride's (proven) system back on track, but to throw more slants and come backs to support Reuben Randall and Jerrel Jernigan.
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if we had a top tier line. But we dont and wont so I think it will be more of the same of him needing near perfect conditions to get the job done.
The wildcard is there draft and if we dont like the QBs maybe they do just bring Eli back one more time and turn to 2020 for a QB.
I think there is some middle ground between "near perfect conditions" and 57 sacks.
Of course, but a lot of those sacks are on him too. Theres plenty of middle ground but any way you slice it he isnt the same QB anymore. The question becomes when we want to replace him and whether its via the draft or FA.
^Spot on^
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
Hes 9th in YPA, stop it.
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
Hes 9th in YPA, stop it.
He's 13th according to ESPN. Not sure if it was updated. He's 33 in average intended air yards, which is a better metric.
Air Yards - ( New Window )
True, I just hope the Giants don't press it when it comes to the draft. If the right guy isn't there, keep taking BPA.
9th in passing yards
Tied for 7th in least Ints (among QB's who have played all games)
Tied for 6th in Completion % (again among full time QB's)
He's about 15th in that stupid QBR rating
He' about 19 in TD's (a little low, but Barkley is here)
And thats with an OL that only started playing decently the past 2 or 3 weeks
50% of BBI will say it is in garbage time and against bad teams.
the rest of the 25% will just nod and go along.
So 125 percent. Got it.
9th in passing yards
Tied for 7th in least Ints (among QB's who have played all games)
Tied for 6th in Completion % (again among full time QB's)
He's about 15th in that stupid QBR rating
He' about 19 in TD's (a little low, but Barkley is here)
And thats with an OL that only started playing decently the past 2 or 3 weeks
Because its not just about scouting the box score.
He's played well the past two weeks, but what about the other 23 starts the last two years?
6 years is a stretch. I'd give you two.
And the punt fumble in overtime was a great play by Williams forcing it out. It wasn't like the guy just dropped it.
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In comment 14183682 Doomster said:
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
Hes 9th in YPA, stop it.
He's 13th according to ESPN. Not sure if it was updated. He's 33 in average intended air yards, which is a better metric. Air Yards - ( New Window )
Sure glad they didn't have that stat back when Montana played...........
Has he improved at age 37? The answer there is probably not. He is who is, with the same ups a downs. THe slight uptick at this point in the schedule is the recent weak defense he played against, along with all the garbage stats he got early in the season.
Its very predictable: he's going to lay an egg soon, and the Giants will be right back where they started, with an above average QB with whom they can win if everyone around him plays well, but a bad contract that does not allow them to get all the good players around him that they need.
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In comment 14183912 Section331 said:
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In comment 14183682 Doomster said:
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just 21 tds.......it's all about the points scored...
As for completion %, how many passes has Eli completed on third down, that are short of the first down....those short check down passes pad the completion %....
Hes 9th in YPA, stop it.
He's 13th according to ESPN. Not sure if it was updated. He's 33 in average intended air yards, which is a better metric. Air Yards - ( New Window )
Sure glad they didn't have that stat back when Montana played...........
Well it's also not 1985.
In comment 14184142 ajr2456 said:
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Is everyone on here smoking crack. The man has been mediocre for at least the last 6 years and if it weren't for two fumbled punts he would have only won one super bowl. Take a look at all of the teams QBs and how many of them would take Manning over theirs maybe four or five. Stop living in the past. Realistically if we were NE he would have been gone years ago.
6 years is a stretch. I'd give you two.
And the punt fumble in overtime was a great play by Williams forcing it out. It wasn't like the guy just dropped it.
New one.... if not for fumbled punts.
We are a bad fan base right now.
In comment 14184142 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14184115 jtdukedfw said:
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Is everyone on here smoking crack. The man has been mediocre for at least the last 6 years and if it weren't for two fumbled punts he would have only won one super bowl. Take a look at all of the teams QBs and how many of them would take Manning over theirs maybe four or five. Stop living in the past. Realistically if we were NE he would have been gone years ago.
6 years is a stretch. I'd give you two.
And the punt fumble in overtime was a great play by Williams forcing it out. It wasn't like the guy just dropped it.
The one you are referring to grazed his knee while trying to get out of the way of it.
OLine and running game looked better.
Most important stat is that they won both games.
I am not convinced this will necessary be a regular thing the rest of the way and I still firmly believe the QB should be more athletic and be able to create more when protection breaks down. but if the OLine protects and SQ runs like he has... and Eli only needs to throw the ball 18 times a game, then we should generally look much better on offense.
however, if that is going to be our offense going forward... do we need a $33m QB?
just throwing it out there.
Can this team legitimately contend for a SB in the next two years with Eli at the helm?
And if one believes that, is the investment required worthwhile?
I think that's a very tough case to make considering how may holes we have...
Can this team legitimately contend for a SB in the next two years with Eli at the helm?
And if one believes that, is the investment required worthwhile?
I think that's a very tough case to make considering how may holes we have...
And we also tried that in 2016. To try to win a Super Bowl the next two years means throwing around a lot of money in free agency, where if you fail could be damaging for a couple of years after the fact.
And chose the wrong direction...again.
And chose the wrong direction...again.
I'm with you on that. Hopefully we're wrong.
That's because Yards Per Attempt doesn't mean anything really when it comes to checking down.
Per Next Gen Stats he throws the ball 2.3 yards short of the first down marker on average. That's third worst in the league.
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I hear you. I just have this sickening feeling that Mara is going to arrive at that fork in the road again.
And chose the wrong direction...again.
I'm with you on that. Hopefully we're wrong.
Is "wrong" defined on the basis of (lack of) accord with your own opinions?
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that "Check down Charlie" has a career YPA of 7.0 and this year it's 7.7!
That's because Yards Per Attempt doesn't mean anything really when it comes to checking down.
Per Next Gen Stats he throws the ball 2.3 yards short of the first down marker on average. That's third worst in the league.
OTOH, those checkdowns go to Barkley, OBJ, Shep, all of whom have the ability and, at least in theory, should be able to get 2.3 YAC. With that in mind, much of those checkdowns are due to design and, therefore, some of the onus in failure belongs to the receivers.
and the defense adds...7 good players lol.
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In comment 14184237 mrvax said:
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that "Check down Charlie" has a career YPA of 7.0 and this year it's 7.7!
That's because Yards Per Attempt doesn't mean anything really when it comes to checking down.
Per Next Gen Stats he throws the ball 2.3 yards short of the first down marker on average. That's third worst in the league.
OTOH, those checkdowns go to Barkley, OBJ, Shep, all of whom have the ability and, at least in theory, should be able to get 2.3 YAC. With that in mind, much of those checkdowns are due to design and, therefore, some of the onus in failure belongs to the receivers.
Maybe, but he also has the second most 3rd down passes short of the sticks. Is Shurmur calling that many passes short of the sticks? Who knows.
Maybe, but he also has the second most 3rd down passes short of the sticks. Is Shurmur calling that many passes short of the sticks? Who knows.
Remember when Gilbride was here? He had Eli throwing 20-30 yards on 3rd and short. Exact opposite.
Are you nuts? LJ would have been forced to run often. He'd be on IR 3 games in.
He's 4th worst in Average Intended Air Yards, so that would confirm that he checks it down, whether by design or not, more than other QBs.
System, Shurmur seems to stretch the field horizontally vs vertically
Protection QBS tend to check down from lack of protection
QB feeling rush - A "spooked" qb may lean more on check downs.
There are probably more that I am missing. Like most things it's probably a combination of things.
it's about points and he has been gunshy this year about taking chances, necessary chances, based on down and distance.
if you read those stats you'd think he's having one of his better seasons. he is not. they are very misleading
that being said he played very well yesterday
If Eli continues to play well here out its going to be easier to believe in #10 and this offense going forward. Factor in that Eli would be entering into his final year, and that the OL has soooooo much room for improvement, meaning even an average body or two will help dramatically, its getting easy to talk yourself into one more year of Eli.
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Stats so far this season:
9th in passing yards
Tied for 7th in least Ints (among QB's who have played all games)
Tied for 6th in Completion % (again among full time QB's)
He's about 15th in that stupid QBR rating
He' about 19 in TD's (a little low, but Barkley is here)
And thats with an OL that only started playing decently the past 2 or 3 weeks
Because its not just about scouting the box score.
He's played well the past two weeks, but what about the other 23 starts the last two years?
The OL has been among the worst in the NFL. He'll last year absolute shit running game along w all those WR injuries. Sure it would be nice to find the next QB but he the idiocy about his okay is amazing. He's not played great when he has a Milisecond to throw and no running game.
He made the throws people said he couldn't. Get a good OL. The guy played great and its ignored. Never
Mind the moron who was coaching the last two years who rightly so will
Never even get another OC position
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
I bet he's not getting his feelings hurt by what people say about him.
It would be crazy awesome if the Giants were able to assemble an o-line, depth at the skill postions, and re-stock the defense before Manning's skills erode beyond championship quality.
I don't think many reasonable fans think Manning couldn't compete if the team around him was good.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
You sound pretty stoked rooting for a team with 3 wins. I wish I could adopt such a loser mentality.
There is no way Manning plays for the Giants next year with his current contract numbers.
When did it become obvious?
Here's a clue. Whenever your subject line lauds Doomster, you really need to rethink what you are going to type next.
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
You sound pretty stoked rooting for a team with 3 wins. I wish I could adopt such a loser mentality.
There is no way Manning plays for the Giants next year with his current contract numbers.
You have said this before and I have asked for specifics. Please explain in detail what that will entail. Keep in mind that the prorated remaining signing bonus just doen't go away. So are you suggesting there is no roster bonus? No workout bonus? What annual salary do you think Eli should be paid?
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
Yea sorry some of us want consistently good QB play and more than 6 wins in the last 26 games.
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
Yea sorry some of us want consistently good QB play and more than 6 wins in the last 26 games.
So, you're saying you never liked Manning ... because it is rather obvious that he is playing just like he has always played... as any pocket qb plays ... give them a solid pocket and they show you what they got ... give them a horrible OL and they can't run and they get sacked repeatedly...
It's really pathetic that a Giant's fan would not understand his own QB's strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't understand that it isn't possible to measure a pocket quarterback's abilities when playing behind a high school OL.
But I keep forgetting that BBI is an open membership and there are plenty of kids here that just don't understand football. The depth of their thought process is: team losing=bad QB; team winning=good QB.
What I am saying is that it isn't possible to evaluate (compare) the Manning of today versus the Manning at his peak without having a OL that is at least somewhat functional.
And that goes the opposite way too - just because Manning had incredible stats Sunday and looked great - could be misleading because the defense he was throwing against was so pathetic.
What we (fans) need to see is Manning playing 10+ games behind a legitimate OL against all types of defensive schemes. Until then it simply isn't possible for fans to evaluate Manning (the coaches, however, see Manning in practice and can measure things we, as fans, never see).
It's just so tiresome to hear fans scream that Manning sucks just because he can't run for his life behind a high school OL. Maybe Manning does suck - but I know one thing for absolute certainty: those screaming it on BBI do not have one single clue of whether what they are saying is true or not.
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In comment 14184992 baadbill said:
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
Yea sorry some of us want consistently good QB play and more than 6 wins in the last 26 games.
So, you're saying you never liked Manning ... because it is rather obvious that he is playing just like he has always played... as any pocket qb plays ... give them a solid pocket and they show you what they got ... give them a horrible OL and they can't run and they get sacked repeatedly...
It's really pathetic that a Giant's fan would not understand his own QB's strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't understand that it isn't possible to measure a pocket quarterback's abilities when playing behind a high school OL.
But I keep forgetting that BBI is an open membership and there are plenty of kids here that just don't understand football. The depth of their thought process is: team losing=bad QB; team winning=good QB.
See this is the tiresome part of arguing with the Eli Still Has It Crowd.
Any criticism of Eli is met with "you never liked him". Or they're idiots. Or don't know football. It's truly not the case. I defended Eli in 2005. Through all the criticism mid way through 2007.
The fact is the Giants are 36-44 the last 5+ years and are on track for their 5th losing season in the last 6, all while the QB doesn't consistently play well.
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In comment 14185410 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14184992 baadbill said:
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
Yea sorry some of us want consistently good QB play and more than 6 wins in the last 26 games.
So, you're saying you never liked Manning ... because it is rather obvious that he is playing just like he has always played... as any pocket qb plays ... give them a solid pocket and they show you what they got ... give them a horrible OL and they can't run and they get sacked repeatedly...
It's really pathetic that a Giant's fan would not understand his own QB's strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't understand that it isn't possible to measure a pocket quarterback's abilities when playing behind a high school OL.
But I keep forgetting that BBI is an open membership and there are plenty of kids here that just don't understand football. The depth of their thought process is: team losing=bad QB; team winning=good QB.
See this is the tiresome part of arguing with the Eli Still Has It Crowd.
Any criticism of Eli is met with "you never liked him". Or they're idiots. Or don't know football. It's truly not the case. I defended Eli in 2005. Through all the criticism mid way through 2007.
The fact is the Giants are 36-44 the last 5+ years and are on track for their 5th losing season in the last 6, all while the QB doesn't consistently play well.
So that's what you got, huh? Giants are 36-44 and therefore every player on that team is rated exactly the same because your analysis is based upon the won/loss record. That's pretty nifty.
How would Tom Brady have performed if he had played QB for the NY Giants all of 2017 and 2018? And if he had the exact same record, according to your analysis he would suck. The fact is, a non-mobile pocket QB could not possibly succeed behind the Giants OL of the past number of years.
You have zero reliable data to evaluate Manning. But just keep screaming as though you know anything about football.
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In comment 14185426 baadbill said:
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In comment 14185410 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14184992 baadbill said:
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
The man is very much aware of the things being said about him. He goes out and has a game in which he throws ONE INCOMPLETION. And people on this thread - who claim to like the Giants - still aren't happy, want to gut him, and the very best they can say is that he had an "OK Game".
On behalf of Manning ... "Go Fuck Yourself"
Yea sorry some of us want consistently good QB play and more than 6 wins in the last 26 games.
So, you're saying you never liked Manning ... because it is rather obvious that he is playing just like he has always played... as any pocket qb plays ... give them a solid pocket and they show you what they got ... give them a horrible OL and they can't run and they get sacked repeatedly...
It's really pathetic that a Giant's fan would not understand his own QB's strengths and weaknesses and wouldn't understand that it isn't possible to measure a pocket quarterback's abilities when playing behind a high school OL.
But I keep forgetting that BBI is an open membership and there are plenty of kids here that just don't understand football. The depth of their thought process is: team losing=bad QB; team winning=good QB.
See this is the tiresome part of arguing with the Eli Still Has It Crowd.
Any criticism of Eli is met with "you never liked him". Or they're idiots. Or don't know football. It's truly not the case. I defended Eli in 2005. Through all the criticism mid way through 2007.
The fact is the Giants are 36-44 the last 5+ years and are on track for their 5th losing season in the last 6, all while the QB doesn't consistently play well.
So that's what you got, huh? Giants are 36-44 and therefore every player on that team is rated exactly the same because your analysis is based upon the won/loss record. That's pretty nifty.
How would Tom Brady have performed if he had played QB for the NY Giants all of 2017 and 2018? And if he had the exact same record, according to your analysis he would suck. The fact is, a non-mobile pocket QB could not possibly succeed behind the Giants OL of the past number of years.
You have zero reliable data to evaluate Manning. But just keep screaming as though you know anything about football.
Haha ok buddy. You want reliable data?
The team has struggled to score points on a consistent basis for three years. Some of that is the oline and some of that is the QB.
You think Eli is putting up points like either QB was last night?
Haha ok buddy. You want reliable data?
The team has struggled to score points on a consistent basis for three years. Some of that is the oline and some of that is the QB.
You think Eli is putting up points like either QB was last night?
What basis do you have for saying "... some of that is the oline and some of that is the QB"?
What percentage is the oline? How do you determine that?
You are just talking out your ass.
Look. We know some facts.
1. Eli Manning has always been an immobile pocket QB.
2. The Giants OL has been horrific.
3. A horrific OL is no friend of an immobile pocket QB.
Under those conditions it just isn't possible for fans to evaluate the play of an immobile pocket QB. And for you to say otherwise, I'd like to hear how YOU have the ability to evaluate Manning under such conditions.
I'd also like to hear why YOU are better at evaluating Manning just by watching TV on your couch when the GM and Coach have both expressed their professional opinion that Manning is still a SB capable QB and they need to provide him with an OL. What do you see on TV that they fail to see in their game and practice film?
I have to rely upon the statements and actions of the GM and Coach, both of whom have made it clear, by words and actions, that Manning is still capable of playing at a high level.
What I don't understand is what gives you insight into Manning that should cause the rest of us on BBI to conclude you are right and the pros being paid by the Giants are wrong?
I want to clarify the above sentence which should read:
"I'm just saying that no BBI fan has the ability to evaluate Manning's play behind this offensive line the past year or so."
Yea, I think I'll go with Gettleman's and Shurmur's evaluations of Manning. When they say he's done, I'll accept he's done. But as of now, they are saying he is still SB talent and I'm inclined to think they know more about it than you do.
I'd also like to hear why YOU are better at evaluating Manning just by watching TV on your couch when the GM and Coach have both expressed their professional opinion that Manning is still a SB capable QB and they need to provide him with an OL. What do you see on TV that they fail to see in their game and practice film?
The same GM that correctly evaluated Stewart and Omameh? GMs can be wrong.
You're not going to listen to what I say, but the offensive line isn't the only issue. His Air Yards vs Expected Air Yards has been in decline since 2015.
His deep pass accuracy is on pass to be under 40% for another year.
He's always been immobile, but he's even more immobile now and pass rushers are more athletic. It's a bad combination and makes a bad offensive line's job much harder.
Air Yards vs Expected Air Yards takes in to account he offense.
Expected Air Yards takes into account Intended Air Yards which is the number of potential Air Yards in all attempts. For example, if you throw 10 passes, each that are 20 yards in the air, that would equal 200 intended air yards and the Defensive AY/A.
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I'd also like to hear why YOU are better at evaluating Manning just by watching TV on your couch when the GM and Coach have both expressed their professional opinion that Manning is still a SB capable QB and they need to provide him with an OL. What do you see on TV that they fail to see in their game and practice film?
The same GM that correctly evaluated Stewart and Omameh? GMs can be wrong.
You're not going to listen to what I say, but the offensive line isn't the only issue. His Air Yards vs Expected Air Yards has been in decline since 2015.
His deep pass accuracy is on pass to be under 40% for another year.
He's always been immobile, but he's even more immobile now and pass rushers are more athletic. It's a bad combination and makes a bad offensive line's job much harder.
Of course a GM and Coach can be wrong. But somebody on BBI isn't going to be the football genius who's going to convince me he/she knows more than they do ... I mean it's a laughable idea... rofl
My point is a very simple one. Eli Manning - and other similar immobile pocket QBs - have always required an OL that is capable of creating and protecting the pocket. And when the OL isn't functioning - isn't capable of doing that - the result is a pocket QB who can't function.
And during that stage - an immobile QB behind a non-functional OL - you get a football game on TV that tells you nothing about the QB that a fan sitting home on a couch can evaluate. I am more than happy to listen to someone on BBI who can tell me the X's and O's that demonstrate, despite the non-functional OL, that Manning is no longer a SB capable QB and why Gettleman and Shurmur are wrong.
And when I'm presented with such evidence, I'll listen and make my own judgment for myself as to whether it is convincing and change my opinion. But all I've heard on BBI is whining about their w/l record and no actual analysis that separates out Manning's performance independent of the OL - and on top of that, does so in a manner that is persuasive that it is actually more authoritative than the paid professional GM and Coach.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying fans can't see talent when it is right in front of them. Great plays are easy to see and recognize. But it is much, much more difficult for fans to judge a poor performance and to be able to use what they see on TV to evaluate the cause(s) of the poor performance and be able to articulate those causes and how they interact with each other.
All I really hear is ... this guy sucks... that guy's horrible... blah blah blah ... when in fact they (BBI) has zero basis to truly know the causes and interrelationships of the breakdown in performance. And is why I don't put much credence in a bunch of whiny fans ranting and raving over the Giants losing record.
What galls me the most, however, is the seeming glee certain posters have in spewing their garbage non-factual mantras about a QB who will retire holding every single Giants QB record. It really makes me wonder why they are so anxious to believe something they can't possibly know (and in the face of professionals saying otherwise). It's really amazing.
"Football isn't a stats game."
And it's still true.
And when I'm presented with such evidence, I'll listen and make my own judgment for myself as to whether it is convincing and change my opinion. But all I've heard on BBI is whining about their w/l record and no actual analysis that separates out Manning's performance independent of the OL - and on top of that, does so in a manner that is persuasive that it is actually more authoritative than the paid professional GM and Coach.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying fans can't see talent when it is right in front of them. Great plays are easy to see and recognize. But it is much, much more difficult for fans to judge a poor performance and to be able to use what they see on TV to evaluate the cause(s) of the poor performance and be able to articulate those causes and how they interact with each other.
All I really hear is ... this guy sucks... that guy's horrible... blah blah blah ... when in fact they (BBI) has zero basis to truly know the causes and interrelationships of the breakdown in performance. And is why I don't put much credence in a bunch of whiny fans ranting and raving over the Giants losing record.
What galls me the most, however, is the seeming glee certain posters have in spewing their garbage non-factual mantras about a QB who will retire holding every single Giants QB record. It really makes me wonder why they are so anxious to believe something they can't possibly know (and in the face of professionals saying otherwise). It's really amazing.
Exactly what I said would happen. Thanks for playing along.
So is baseball, and advanced metrics has changed how teams operate and build their rosters.
There's a reason the Dolphins and Patriots have a ton of money building their own analytics systems. There's a reason the Eagles credit EDJ Analytics with helping them win the Super Bowl. There's a reason coaches are now looking at the numbers like Shurmur did going for two against Atlanta.
It's a simple game, but there's more underneath the surface.
So I'm still waiting for you to explain what data you are using and how you are able to analyze Mannning's play since the start of the 2017 season .... and how you separate out the OL play ... and explain what exactly Manning is doing wrong that is independent of the OL ... and provide me with a basis to understand your reasoning so I can decide whether you truly do know more than Gettleman and Shurmur.
We know you won't because we know you can't. No big deal because no fan can. But I'd love to hear your post if you want to try.
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
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Exactly what I said would happen. Thanks for playing along...
So I'm still waiting for you to explain what data you are using and how you are able to analyze Mannning's play since the start of the 2017 season .... and how you separate out the OL play ... and explain what exactly Manning is doing wrong that is independent of the OL ... and provide me with a basis to understand your reasoning so I can decide whether you truly do know more than Gettleman and Shurmur.
We know you won't because we know you can't. No big deal because no fan can. But I'd love to hear your post if you want to try.
I literally gave you two stats that only measure passes that are actually thrown but here is another one:
His passer rating when kept clean has declined each year prior to this: 101.3-100.6-92.6-85.8.
His adjusted completion percentage when given 2.6 seconds or more to throw has dropped nearly each year: 70.6 to 67.7 to 60.4 to 63.1.
He ranked 7th in uncatchable pass %. (this excludes throwaways)
These are all signs of a declining QB.
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In comment 14185666 ajr2456 said:
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Exactly what I said would happen. Thanks for playing along...
So I'm still waiting for you to explain what data you are using and how you are able to analyze Mannning's play since the start of the 2017 season .... and how you separate out the OL play ... and explain what exactly Manning is doing wrong that is independent of the OL ... and provide me with a basis to understand your reasoning so I can decide whether you truly do know more than Gettleman and Shurmur.
We know you won't because we know you can't. No big deal because no fan can. But I'd love to hear your post if you want to try.
I literally gave you two stats that only measure passes that are actually thrown but here is another one:
His passer rating when kept clean has declined each year prior to this: 101.3-100.6-92.6-85.8.
His adjusted completion percentage when given 2.6 seconds or more to throw has dropped nearly each year: 70.6 to 67.7 to 60.4 to 63.1.
He ranked 7th in uncatchable pass %. (this excludes throwaways)
These are all signs of a declining QB.
Anybody also with two eyes can see that the past two weeks, when given some semblance of time and a run game, he makes plays.
I don't need any advanced metric to show me that, I see it in living color.
Anybody also with two eyes can see that the past two weeks, when given some semblance of time and a run game, he makes plays.
I don't need any advanced metric to show me that, I see it in living color.
Has anyone denied that the offensive line has been bad?
By all means choose to ignore the advanced metrics, thats you're right.
From working in the field and talking to people heavily involved in the game of football, these stats have much greater predictive value than BBI would like to think.
Conversely, Quarterbacks when protected, can get into a rhythm. Opposing defenses are always trying to prevent a QB from getting into a rhythm.
Statistics can't measure these things. A shooter in basketball gets into a rhythm and gets hot. It is not a measurable thing.
Individual game performance, help you clarify how to scheme, predict future performance. The advanced metrics have trended downward for a number of years, and by looking at those it was easy to see what was coming for Eli.
Are all of the Giants issues his? No, and the line attributes to the advanced metrics declining so sharply. However a better oline likely doesn't push those advanced metrics into the positives, it likely would only slow down the decline.
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
- The time it will take to build a championship roster doesn't coincide with how much championship type football Manning has left in the tank (if any)
- Playing well against the really bad teams in the league isn't an indicator of future success as a ball club
- Ending up a 7-9, 8-8 type team over the next 2 years is worse than starting from the bottom with a new QB
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Individual game performance, help you clarify how to scheme, predict future performance. The advanced metrics have trended downward for a number of years, and by looking at those it was easy to see what was coming for Eli.
Are all of the Giants issues his? No, and the line attributes to the advanced metrics declining so sharply. However a better oline likely doesn't push those advanced metrics into the positives, it likely would only slow down the decline.
Then how do you explain the night and day performance of the past two weeks, which coincide directly with improved line play, and the run game setting up playaction?
I mean, that is not a coincidence. And before you say, well, look at the competition... We did he make the throws or not?
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
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In comment 14185716 Britt in VA said:
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Individual game performance, help you clarify how to scheme, predict future performance. The advanced metrics have trended downward for a number of years, and by looking at those it was easy to see what was coming for Eli.
Are all of the Giants issues his? No, and the line attributes to the advanced metrics declining so sharply. However a better oline likely doesn't push those advanced metrics into the positives, it likely would only slow down the decline.
Then how do you explain the night and day performance of the past two weeks, which coincide directly with improved line play, and the run game setting up playaction?
I mean, that is not a coincidence. And before you say, well, look at the competition... We did he make the throws or not?
There's outliers in every area of life when it comes to data, and the competition does matter.
The Bucs were missing David and Alexander, two of their top three defenders - on an already bad defense. That absolutely plays a role. They were able to get more higher percentage throws
You can look at the charts, yourself - not much has changed in the types of passes being thrown when it comes to location and distance.
There's also data out there that suggests running the football successfully doesn't equate to success in play action.
PA - ( New Window )
- The time it will take to build a championship roster doesn't coincide with how much championship type football Manning has left in the tank (if any)
- Playing well against the really bad teams in the league isn't an indicator of future success as a ball club
- Ending up a 7-9, 8-8 type team over the next 2 years is worse than starting from the bottom with a new QB
I was in favor of drafting a QB this past draft. Regardless of how much Manning had left entering the 2018 season, it was obvious the Giants were going to have to deal with Manning's replacement very soon and I believe you need to take advantage of a top 5 draft position when you have it, to grab yourself a franchise QB.
I was also in favor of the Giants letting Manning go because a non-functioning OL doesn't fit well with an immobile pocket QB like Manning. Neither the Giants nor Manning are served well in that dynamic.
I'm still in favor of those things for the same reasons. But none of that has anything to do with a conclusion how Eli Manning would be performing if he was playing behind a functioning OL. My sole point is that it isn't possible for a BBI couch potato to evaluate poor individual performance on a football field because there are simply too many factors that interact to allow a fan to make such an evaluation in any credible way.
And I tend to believe that analytics skew towards garbage data when trying to measure poor performance on an individual level as opposed to measuring team based performance (where analytics can be much more credible).
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In comment 14185716 Britt in VA said:
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Individual game performance, help you clarify how to scheme, predict future performance. The advanced metrics have trended downward for a number of years, and by looking at those it was easy to see what was coming for Eli.
Are all of the Giants issues his? No, and the line attributes to the advanced metrics declining so sharply. However a better oline likely doesn't push those advanced metrics into the positives, it likely would only slow down the decline.
Then how do you explain the night and day performance of the past two weeks, which coincide directly with improved line play, and the run game setting up playaction?
I mean, that is not a coincidence. And before you say, well, look at the competition... We did he make the throws or not?
That is literally what has been happening. So you can talk about how far the ball travels on average, but the above scenario is very real for the New York Giants of the past couple of seasons, and it absolutely has an affect on the numbers you're looking at, regardless of whether he got the ball out or not.
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In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
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In comment 14185740 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14185716 Britt in VA said:
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Individual game performance, help you clarify how to scheme, predict future performance. The advanced metrics have trended downward for a number of years, and by looking at those it was easy to see what was coming for Eli.
Are all of the Giants issues his? No, and the line attributes to the advanced metrics declining so sharply. However a better oline likely doesn't push those advanced metrics into the positives, it likely would only slow down the decline.
Then how do you explain the night and day performance of the past two weeks, which coincide directly with improved line play, and the run game setting up playaction?
I mean, that is not a coincidence. And before you say, well, look at the competition... We did he make the throws or not?
Eli is absolutely capable of playing good games at this stage of career. Your sample size against inferior teams is way too small to be statistically meaningful. If Eli plays well against the Eagles & Bears I will be more than willing to indicate the formation of a trend that matters. If he falls back to poor play it will identify these last 2 performances as outlier statistics against poor teams.
Exactly, as would I. If there is a consistency of good play it will negate the competition argument.
There amount of good play over the past 25 starts has been much smaller than the amount of poor play.
If we're going to base season long observations on what amount to outliers (until proven otherwise) the 49ers should trade Jimmy G because Mullens played well against the Raiders.
They are a tool. They are useful, but they only tell some of the story.
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In comment 14185744 baadbill said:
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In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
What part of when "kept clean" aka when the OL does it's job do you not get?
These things are in decline for a number of reasons. Slight decline in arm strength, the inability to extend plays, mental processing being a tick slower than it was during the prime of his career, etc.
They are a tool. They are useful, but they only tell some of the story.
Part of being good at playing in the NFL, is the ability to compartmentalize. If Eli is getting shook on the play after getting hit enough that it is affecting his season long performance, maybe it's time to call it quits.
I have suggested that Sunday was actually a missed opportunity for the Giants - a perfect team at home to play Lauletta.
Eli is absolutely capable of playing good games at this stage of career. Your sample size against inferior teams is way too small to be statistically meaningful. If Eli plays well against the Eagles & Bears I will be more than willing to indicate the formation of a trend that matters. If he falls back to poor play it will identify these last 2 performances as outlier statistics against poor teams.
That's bullshit. Eli can only play well if the OL plays well. I suspect Eli played well the past two games because he had the beginnings of a reliable pocket and a running game... COMBINED with what was probably inferior coverage (I don't know if that is true, but I assume it almost certainly is true).
So, the issue is - if the OL provides the same reliable pocket in the next two games, how does Manning fare? The "problem" of course is that it is highly doubtful that the OL is going to fare as well against better competition - and thus Manning will not have a reliable pocket because the performance of the OL falters.
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In comment 14185744 baadbill said:
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In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
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In comment 14185755 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14185744 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
What part of when "kept clean" aka when the OL does it's job do you not get?
These things are in decline for a number of reasons. Slight decline in arm strength, the inability to extend plays, mental processing being a tick slower than it was during the prime of his career, etc.
You are laughable. Your website's analytics pretends to measure "kept clean" as though the following two scenarios are the same:
1. QB drops back to pass 40 times. He experiences zero sacks and 1 pressure.
2. QB drops back to pass 40 times. He experiences 6 sacks and 30 pressures.
Now, you say, let's look at the 4 times QB #2 was "kept clean" and measure his performance versus when QB #1 was "kept clean".
I mean, that is honestly laughable. It's garbage in, garbage out.
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I'm only measuring the balls he actually threw, but you're not taking into account that he got crushed by two 300 pound linemen 30 seconds prior. Or that he center got pushed back into him, or he had JJ Watt completely smoke his guy the play before and blindside him. Stats just don't measure that.
They are a tool. They are useful, but they only tell some of the story.
Part of being good at playing in the NFL, is the ability to compartmentalize. If Eli is getting shook on the play after getting hit enough that it is affecting his season long performance, maybe it's time to call it quits.
He's the most sacked QB in the league right now. He's already eclipsed the number of times he was sacked last year and we're only at the midway point.
Saquon was getting hit in the backfield and had more negative rushes than any other NFL back, and up until two weeks ago I don't even think it was close. Was that an indication of his poor play?
I am sorry you are incapable of understanding these advanced metrics. My analysis is that Eli has steadily declined in accordance with the historical performance of aging NFL QBs. The most loyal of his fans will discount ALL of the evidence that points to Eli being anything more than an average NFl starter at this stage of his career, that needs a particular set of circumstances that make any QB successful, even rookies. In conclusion, you don't want to admit what is painfully evident because of your loyalty. That does not say anything bad about you.
This is very well said...
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Eli is absolutely capable of playing good games at this stage of career. Your sample size against inferior teams is way too small to be statistically meaningful. If Eli plays well against the Eagles & Bears I will be more than willing to indicate the formation of a trend that matters. If he falls back to poor play it will identify these last 2 performances as outlier statistics against poor teams.
That's bullshit. Eli can only play well if the OL plays well. I suspect Eli played well the past two games because he had the beginnings of a reliable pocket and a running game... COMBINED with what was probably inferior coverage (I don't know if that is true, but I assume it almost certainly is true).
So, the issue is - if the OL provides the same reliable pocket in the next two games, how does Manning fare? The "problem" of course is that it is highly doubtful that the OL is going to fare as well against better competition - and thus Manning will not have a reliable pocket because the performance of the OL falters.
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...
Eli is absolutely capable of playing good games at this stage of career. Your sample size against inferior teams is way too small to be statistically meaningful. If Eli plays well against the Eagles & Bears I will be more than willing to indicate the formation of a trend that matters. If he falls back to poor play it will identify these last 2 performances as outlier statistics against poor teams.
That's bullshit. Eli can only play well if the OL plays well. I suspect Eli played well the past two games because he had the beginnings of a reliable pocket and a running game... COMBINED with what was probably inferior coverage (I don't know if that is true, but I assume it almost certainly is true).
So, the issue is - if the OL provides the same reliable pocket in the next two games, how does Manning fare? The "problem" of course is that it is highly doubtful that the OL is going to fare as well against better competition - and thus Manning will not have a reliable pocket because the performance of the OL falters.
Other QB's throughout the league have good performances with sub par offensive line play, in fact Russel Wilson has done it for years.
What is bullshit is the idea that we can only expect good QB play if the pocket isn't clean every play.
I seem to remember Eli going 32-58 for 316, 2 tds and 0 int in San Franciso while getting absolutely abused.
Does current day Eli pull off that performance?
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In comment 14185780 Britt in VA said:
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I'm only measuring the balls he actually threw, but you're not taking into account that he got crushed by two 300 pound linemen 30 seconds prior. Or that he center got pushed back into him, or he had JJ Watt completely smoke his guy the play before and blindside him. Stats just don't measure that.
They are a tool. They are useful, but they only tell some of the story.
Part of being good at playing in the NFL, is the ability to compartmentalize. If Eli is getting shook on the play after getting hit enough that it is affecting his season long performance, maybe it's time to call it quits.
He's the most sacked QB in the league right now. He's already eclipsed the number of times he was sacked last year and we're only at the midway point.
Saquon was getting hit in the backfield and had more negative rushes than any other NFL back, and up until two weeks ago I don't even think it was close. Was that an indication of his poor play?
Is Saqoun running for less yards because he got in the back field the play before?
I specifically laid out stats that pointed out poorer stats when more time is given, and when there is no pressure.
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In comment 14185755 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14185744 baadbill said:
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In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
I am sorry you are incapable of understanding these advanced metrics. My analysis is that Eli has steadily declined in accordance with the historical performance of aging NFL QBs. The most loyal of his fans will discount ALL of the evidence that points to Eli being anything more than an average NFl starter at this stage of his career, that needs a particular set of circumstances that make any QB successful, even rookies. In conclusion, you don't want to admit what is painfully evident because of your loyalty. That does not say anything bad about you.
But that isn't true about me. As I said, I was (and still am) in favor of the Giants moving on from Manning in 2018 (and still do in 2019). It simply makes no sense to play an immobile pocket QB with a non-functioning OL.
And I am not saying Manning isn't done. What I am saying is that nobody here on BBI can tell me he is based upon their own evaluation. Now, I didn't realize that you and others were trying to say that you aren't basing it on your own analysis but rather are simply relying upon external webpage.
Now I understand and we can move on. There's no reason to talk any more about it. You aren't doing anything but being an advertisement for the website. You add nothing yourself. It isn't your conclusion - it is their conclusion. I can go debate with them - at least then I would be debating with people actually making the analysis.
You are laughable. Your website's analytics pretends to measure "kept clean" as though the following two scenarios are the same:
1. QB drops back to pass 40 times. He experiences zero sacks and 1 pressure.
2. QB drops back to pass 40 times. He experiences 6 sacks and 30 pressures.
Now, you say, let's look at the 4 times QB #2 was "kept clean" and measure his performance versus when QB #1 was "kept clean".
I mean, that is honestly laughable. It's garbage in, garbage out.
This is exactly what I meant when I said that I can give you data and analysis but you're not going to accept it.
Yes, NFL teams are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for laughable and useless data.
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In comment 14185784 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14185780 Britt in VA said:
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I'm only measuring the balls he actually threw, but you're not taking into account that he got crushed by two 300 pound linemen 30 seconds prior. Or that he center got pushed back into him, or he had JJ Watt completely smoke his guy the play before and blindside him. Stats just don't measure that.
They are a tool. They are useful, but they only tell some of the story.
Part of being good at playing in the NFL, is the ability to compartmentalize. If Eli is getting shook on the play after getting hit enough that it is affecting his season long performance, maybe it's time to call it quits.
He's the most sacked QB in the league right now. He's already eclipsed the number of times he was sacked last year and we're only at the midway point.
Saquon was getting hit in the backfield and had more negative rushes than any other NFL back, and up until two weeks ago I don't even think it was close. Was that an indication of his poor play?
Is Saqoun running for less yards because he got in the back field the play before?
I specifically laid out stats that pointed out poorer stats when more time is given, and when there is no pressure.
That's a good question, because a lot of people would say Saquon's numbers have been skewed because he would get a bunch of negative rush yards, but then hit a home run.
So if Eli gets hit a bunch of times, or throws some checkdowns, and then hits one deep home run, you would still look at his air yards as being poor. A couple of weeks ago, Saquon was only averaging 3.6 or so yards per carry. But you and I know that wasn't an indication of how HE was playing. It was that he was getting hit a bunch in the backfield.
Now Saquon is averaging 4.6, and I think only had one or two negative runs last week. Did Saquon the player improve, or did the performance of the line just rise up to match/showcase the ability of the player?
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In comment 14185775 Thegratefulhead said:
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Eli is absolutely capable of playing good games at this stage of career. Your sample size against inferior teams is way too small to be statistically meaningful. If Eli plays well against the Eagles & Bears I will be more than willing to indicate the formation of a trend that matters. If he falls back to poor play it will identify these last 2 performances as outlier statistics against poor teams.
That's bullshit. Eli can only play well if the OL plays well. I suspect Eli played well the past two games because he had the beginnings of a reliable pocket and a running game... COMBINED with what was probably inferior coverage (I don't know if that is true, but I assume it almost certainly is true).
So, the issue is - if the OL provides the same reliable pocket in the next two games, how does Manning fare? The "problem" of course is that it is highly doubtful that the OL is going to fare as well against better competition - and thus Manning will not have a reliable pocket because the performance of the OL falters.
Do you know the standard pressure rate in the NFL? There is pressure in the NFL unless you are Drew Brees. Every other QB faces pressure, how they handle it is what makes them great or not. Eli WAS great when he handled that pressure as well as anyone. He doesn't anymore. Saying we can ONLY evaluate Eli when he has no pressure is...just fucking stupid, this pressureless NFL does not exist.
Eli has never experienced pressure as he did during 2017 and the first 8 games of 2018. That's bull shit. And so is your DVOA bullshit pretend data site when it comes to measuring QB performance and pretends to adjust for poor OL play. It's just bogus.
And I am not saying Manning isn't done. What I am saying is that nobody here on BBI can tell me he is based upon their own evaluation.
So you're admitting to just trolling?
So if Eli gets hit a bunch of times, or throws some checkdowns, and then hits one deep home run, you would still look at his air yards as being poor. A couple of weeks ago, Saquon was only averaging 3.6 or so yards per carry. But you and I know that wasn't an indication of how HE was playing. It was that he was getting hit a bunch in the backfield.
Now Saquon is averaging 4.6, and I think only had one or two negative runs last week. Did Saquon the player improve, or did the performance of the line just rise up to match/showcase the ability of the player?
At least you come with an actual debate, unlike Bill.
His air yards would still be looked at as poor because the home run is the outlier. However, there is an advanced metric that measures Big Time Throws, which would be those home run type throws - regardless of how much of it came throw the air vs the ground. I just don't have those numbers in front of me.
Barkley's advanced metrics have been pretty good on a week to week basis, and the lower amount of negative runs were probably a combination of him attacking more north to south instead of bouncing outside as well as the line playing better.
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And I am not saying Manning isn't done. What I am saying is that nobody here on BBI can tell me he is based upon their own evaluation.
So you're admitting to just trolling?
WTF are you talking about? What is clear to me is that YOU are not providing us with YOUR opinion or YOUR analysis. All you are doing is pointing to some website and telling me what the website says about attempting to apply experimental analytics to measure individual performance. It isn't possible to accurately measure what it is like to play behind the Giants OL since the beginning of 2017 and put a value on that to make it comparable to playing behind a different team's OL during that same time frame. It's junk data.
But, more importantly, it isn't YOUR data, so why am I even talking to you about it? You can't tell me how the data adjusts for one OL versus another. In fact you can't tell me anything at all about the data. All you can say is - go take a look at this website. But you bring absolutely nothing to the table yourself worth discussing.
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In comment 14185813 baadbill said:
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And I am not saying Manning isn't done. What I am saying is that nobody here on BBI can tell me he is based upon their own evaluation.
So you're admitting to just trolling?
WTF are you talking about? What is clear to me is that YOU are not providing us with YOUR opinion or YOUR analysis. All you are doing is pointing to some website and telling me what the website says about attempting to apply experimental analytics to measure individual performance. It isn't possible to accurately measure what it is like to play behind the Giants OL since the beginning of 2017 and put a value on that to make it comparable to playing behind a different team's OL during that same time frame. It's junk data.
But, more importantly, it isn't YOUR data, so why am I even talking to you about it? You can't tell me how the data adjusts for one OL versus another. In fact you can't tell me anything at all about the data. All you can say is - go take a look at this website. But you bring absolutely nothing to the table yourself worth discussing.
I dont think you understand the concept of taking data, analyzing it and come to a conclusion.
Of course it isn't my data, I don't have the time to chart every game and calculate data. I can however look at data, analyze it and use that to make sense of what is occurring on the field to the best of my opinion, I get paid to do it.
Here's how it works:
Me: Eli Manning is in decline. Why? Here is data that backs up the claim that he is decline.
Again you can call these numbers bullshit or laughable, but NFL teams pay a lot of money for them. Are they wrong?
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In comment 14185817 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14185813 baadbill said:
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And I am not saying Manning isn't done. What I am saying is that nobody here on BBI can tell me he is based upon their own evaluation.
So you're admitting to just trolling?
WTF are you talking about? What is clear to me is that YOU are not providing us with YOUR opinion or YOUR analysis. All you are doing is pointing to some website and telling me what the website says about attempting to apply experimental analytics to measure individual performance. It isn't possible to accurately measure what it is like to play behind the Giants OL since the beginning of 2017 and put a value on that to make it comparable to playing behind a different team's OL during that same time frame. It's junk data.
But, more importantly, it isn't YOUR data, so why am I even talking to you about it? You can't tell me how the data adjusts for one OL versus another. In fact you can't tell me anything at all about the data. All you can say is - go take a look at this website. But you bring absolutely nothing to the table yourself worth discussing.
I dont think you understand the concept of taking data, analyzing it and come to a conclusion.
Of course it isn't my data, I don't have the time to chart every game and calculate data. I can however look at data, analyze it and use that to make sense of what is occurring on the field to the best of my opinion, I get paid to do it.
Here's how it works:
Me: Eli Manning is in decline. Why? Here is data that backs up the claim that he is decline.
Again you can call these numbers bullshit or laughable, but NFL teams pay a lot of money for them. Are they wrong?
You've already compared Manning to Wilson on this thread using that site's data - which tells me how worthless it is. Wilson is obviously going to play better behind a non-functioning OL than will Manning. I doubt very much that any NFL team is paying for that kind of analysis.
Football has always used statistics and always will. And some data is more valuable than other data. Thus, for example, team data is much more reliable than individual data. And individual data in baseball is much more reliable than individual data in football. There is no magic to this fact. It is simply the number of variables at play. At some point the number of variables - and their influence - is so large as to render the results of questionable value and at some point, totally meaningless.
I suggest that measuring a QBs performance behind a historically horrible OL with the hope it tells you something about how that QB would perform behind an average OL, is meaningless data.
Point to where I used data to compare them, because I never compared them - I simply stated that QBs throughout the league perform well with poor oline play.
Football has always used statistics and always will. And some data is more valuable than other data. Thus, for example, team data is much more reliable than individual data. And individual data in baseball is much more reliable than individual data in football. There is no magic to this fact. It is simply the number of variables at play. At some point the number of variables - and their influence - is so large as to render the results of questionable value and at some point, totally meaningless. [/quote]
That's why the ways of calculating the data is always evolving with new data points - to account for as many variables as possible.
Individual data isn't as useless as you're making it out to be, teams pay for it, they use it and they use it heavily. You can keep calling it useless and there's no point in continuing to argue with you, but I've in the analytics offices of places like Michigan, Alabama, UCLA, Dolphins, etc and worked with them on their data and figuring out how they apply it and how it can be improved.
Individual data isn't as useless as you're making it out to be, teams pay for it, they use it and they use it heavily. You can keep calling it useless and there's no point in continuing to argue with you, but I've in the analytics offices of places like Michigan, Alabama, UCLA, Dolphins, etc and worked with them on their data and figuring out how they apply it and how it can be improved.
Look, here's what happened here. I thought you were bashing Manning based upon something you seeing him play. Something he was doing wrong or no longer able to perform based upon your own eyes and what you perceived was your football knowledge.
And I was objecting to that as not within the ability of a fan to do based upon watching TV broadcast of an immobile pocket QB operating behind a non-functional offensive line.
Now I realize it is something completely different. It is your philosophical belief in the value of data metrics. And I now understand that and respect that view much differently than where I thought you were coming from. I still disagree with the ability of metrics to account for the inputs necessary to accurately measure the impact of a non-functioning OL, but at least I can understand why you are saying what you're saying.
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... That's why the ways of calculating the data is always evolving with new data points - to account for as many variables as possible.
Individual data isn't as useless as you're making it out to be, teams pay for it, they use it and they use it heavily. You can keep calling it useless and there's no point in continuing to argue with you, but I've in the analytics offices of places like Michigan, Alabama, UCLA, Dolphins, etc and worked with them on their data and figuring out how they apply it and how it can be improved.
Look, here's what happened here. I thought you were bashing Manning based upon something you seeing him play. Something he was doing wrong or no longer able to perform based upon your own eyes and what you perceived was your football knowledge.
And I was objecting to that as not within the ability of a fan to do based upon watching TV broadcast of an immobile pocket QB operating behind a non-functional offensive line.
Now I realize it is something completely different. It is your philosophical belief in the value of data metrics. And I now understand that and respect that view much differently than where I thought you were coming from. I still disagree with the ability of metrics to account for the inputs necessary to accurately measure the impact of a non-functioning OL, but at least I can understand why you are saying what you're saying.
Again you are not getting the concept. Visually Eli Manning has played poor more often than he has played good, and the metrics back that up.
It's really not a hard concept. I'm done with this though. Believe what you want.
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In comment 14185744 baadbill said:
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In comment 14185684 Thegratefulhead said:
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https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2017
Sure enough, last season saw seven quarterbacks dip below 30.0% DVOA without pressure, and only two of those players (Eli Manning and Joe Flacco) are expected to be Week 1 starters for their teams in 2018. They also happen to be the two with Super Bowl MVP awards, but at least the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson in the first round in April. The Giants are still going with a 37-year-old Manning, but that shouldn't be the case much longer if he continues to struggle like this. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
Ahh, analytics. Not what I was looking for, but I can appreciate the value of some analytics (esp those that are valuations of team play as opposed to individual play which, in football, is much more difficult to separate out from the complexities of team performance impacting individual performance).
I just spent 15 minutes reading your links and I must admit my eyes glazed over (i.e. not because I'm saying it's not meaningful, but because I wasn't able to understand the charts and the significance of what I'm seeing - and I don't see anything telling me WHY instead of just WHAT).
As for the quality of the data, am I reading it correctly that the chart says Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressures of any QB during the 2017 season? If that is what it is saying (and if it isn't, then i REALLY don't understand the chart), then this is total garbage. I'm sorry, but I watched every snap of every game in 2017 and there is no way Eli Manning experienced the 5th lowest amount of pressure last year. If that is the basis of their data, then I don't know what else to say.
At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone to explain to me what is Manning doing differently that he wasn't doing 10 years ago, that isn't caused by the non-functioning OL (and how did you arrive at that analysis)?
Dude seriously?
It's been stated. Deep pass accuracy. Adjusted completion percentage and passer rating when kept clean are all declining.
WTF are you talking about? How can someone measure completion percentage and passer rating when playing behind a high school offensive line?
And how do you explain his "statistics" on Sunday?
You're just spouting statistics as though this was baseball. How about explaining WHY he is declining in those things and explaining to me WHY it is not caused by his OL? You are not giving me YOUR analysis ... you are just in love with a website that is experimenting with football analytics.
QBs who are weeks away from turning 38 decline. Is that a sufficient "why" for you? But, by all means, continue to use small sample sizes (one game, really?).
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In comment 14185837 ajr2456 said:
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... That's why the ways of calculating the data is always evolving with new data points - to account for as many variables as possible.
Individual data isn't as useless as you're making it out to be, teams pay for it, they use it and they use it heavily. You can keep calling it useless and there's no point in continuing to argue with you, but I've in the analytics offices of places like Michigan, Alabama, UCLA, Dolphins, etc and worked with them on their data and figuring out how they apply it and how it can be improved.
Look, here's what happened here. I thought you were bashing Manning based upon something you seeing him play. Something he was doing wrong or no longer able to perform based upon your own eyes and what you perceived was your football knowledge.
And I was objecting to that as not within the ability of a fan to do based upon watching TV broadcast of an immobile pocket QB operating behind a non-functional offensive line.
Now I realize it is something completely different. It is your philosophical belief in the value of data metrics. And I now understand that and respect that view much differently than where I thought you were coming from. I still disagree with the ability of metrics to account for the inputs necessary to accurately measure the impact of a non-functioning OL, but at least I can understand why you are saying what you're saying.
Again you are not getting the concept. Visually Eli Manning has played poor more often than he has played good, and the metrics back that up.
It's really not a hard concept. I'm done with this though. Believe what you want.
I get the concept. You believe it is possible to take performance data of an immobile pocket passer behind the a non-functional offensive line - and somehow project how that QB would perform if he played behind a fully functional offensive line.
Now that I understand where you are coming from, I agree there's no reason to continue the conversation. I simply don't believe there is any value in efforts to project how Manning (or any other immobile pocket QB) would perform behind a fully functional OL based upon massaged data taken from how he is performing behind a non-functional OL.
There's all forms of valuable data but this clearly isn't one of them.
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It has become obvious that Manning could lead the Giants to his 3rd Lombardi and 3rd MVP and the idiots on this thread would still want to disembowel him.
When did it become obvious?
Sorry if missed as looking on my iPhone. What is the answer to my question please?
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I am sorry you are incapable of understanding these advanced metrics. My analysis is that Eli has steadily declined in accordance with the historical performance of aging NFL QBs. The most loyal of his fans will discount ALL of the evidence that points to Eli being anything more than an average NFl starter at this stage of his career, that needs a particular set of circumstances that make any QB successful, even rookies. In conclusion, you don't want to admit what is painfully evident because of your loyalty. That does not say anything bad about you.
This is very well said...
I subscribe to this as well...
Now, one other issue that causes issues is the call out threads from both sides. Eli plays good so an "Eli played great, in your face" thread pops up. These don't help draw people to common ground in my opinion. Of course Eli doesn't play well so you get the "Eli sucked, in your face" thread from the other side (although this side is more strange that some fans would be happy to point out when a franchise great player struggles).
Both sides lack common ground and it's possible that neither side actually wants common ground on the topic (See political "discussions").
What side am I on? Well, I would like to think neither. I certainly love when a great franchise player plays well. I also am open to the idea and have accepted the idea that Manning isn't the same player. I am also open to the idea that Manning makes more mistakes than I think, but I won't just accept that information from just anyone. There are a few posters here that know the game inside and out, their opinion is much value. I also closely to a few tv guys that played on the offensive side and know the passing game very well. Guys like Witten and Romo come to mind, as well as Aikman (three cowboys, YUCK).
I really think a lot of fans think they know enough about the game to properly critique player's fundamentals, assignments and efforts. In reality I believe most to have a very basic understanding of the game (I am right with you).
You're clearly missing the point. Eli Manning gets a nasty note any time someone disrespects him on BBI.
It's killing him.
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is why anyone would feel antagonized on a "pro Eli" thread. I mean we are all Giants fans right? If Eli plays well that is a good thing right? Shouldn't we all enjoy that? It's not like Mara is saying in his head..."I was going to cut Eli, but BBI says he is playing well so let's keep him..."
You're clearly missing the point. Eli Manning gets a nasty note any time someone disrespects him on BBI.
It's killing him.
You're right I don't. I've never understood why he is so polarizing to GIANTS fans. I've been on this board since 99. I don't recall anyone player especially a QB with constant threads on them. When KC was our QB, he would have really good games and some bad games, yet he never drew this amount of discussion and he didn't have the resume Eli does. It's baffling to me.
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In comment 14186506 JOrthman said:
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is why anyone would feel antagonized on a "pro Eli" thread. I mean we are all Giants fans right? If Eli plays well that is a good thing right? Shouldn't we all enjoy that? It's not like Mara is saying in his head..."I was going to cut Eli, but BBI says he is playing well so let's keep him..."
You're clearly missing the point. Eli Manning gets a nasty note any time someone disrespects him on BBI.
It's killing him.
You're right I don't. I've never understood why he is so polarizing to GIANTS fans. I've been on this board since 99. I don't recall anyone player especially a QB with constant threads on them. When KC was our QB, he would have really good games and some bad games, yet he never drew this amount of discussion and he didn't have the resume Eli does. It's baffling to me.
I think everyone has their "favorite" from the Super Bowls era -- and the conversation gets loaded -- the Giants won because of or in spite of. Fill in Coughlin or Reese as well.
Hell I find myself getting strangely protective of Jerry Reese, and I think he did a pretty dismal job his last 5 years.
People just talked about players differently back then.
People just talked about players differently back then.
But why, it's not like we are talking about the 60's? That wasn't that long ago, we are talking three years between that game and Eli arriving and Eli replaced KC.
Hell I find myself getting strangely protective of Jerry Reese, and I think he did a pretty dismal job his last 5 years.
I get that to a point, but Eli seems to be way more polarizing.
People that just view the game differently. And of course, the influx of advanced metrics these posters brought with them.
There is a current poster that still holds the San Diego situation against Eli, of course that is the same poster that said Eli's game didn't count last week because it was against Tampa, well at least said it doesn't fully count and should have an asterisk placed next to his stats.
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In comment 14186506 JOrthman said:
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is why anyone would feel antagonized on a "pro Eli" thread. I mean we are all Giants fans right? If Eli plays well that is a good thing right? Shouldn't we all enjoy that? It's not like Mara is saying in his head..."I was going to cut Eli, but BBI says he is playing well so let's keep him..."
You're clearly missing the point. Eli Manning gets a nasty note any time someone disrespects him on BBI.
It's killing him.
You're right I don't. I've never understood why he is so polarizing to GIANTS fans. I've been on this board since 99. I don't recall anyone player especially a QB with constant threads on them. When KC was our QB, he would have really good games and some bad games, yet he never drew this amount of discussion and he didn't have the resume Eli does. It's baffling to me.
By contrast, The Kerry Collins era was only 4 seasons, two of which were playoff years one of which we went to the super bowl and the other playoff loss was not at all his fault.
There is a current poster that still holds the San Diego situation against Eli, of course that is the same poster that said Eli's game didn't count last week because it was against Tampa, well at least said it doesn't fully count and should have an asterisk placed next to his stats.
I admit I'm not a fan of Manning -- the San Diego situation never sat well with me, and I wasn't impressed by how he handled the benching situation last year.
But I've been damn impressed with him as a football player. I think he's the toughest QB to ever have played the game, and I think in his era he has the least physical skills of all the QBs, and gotten the very most out of it. I also think he's the smartest QB of his era but a decent margin,
I also admit there's a group of Manning fans who just absolutely annoy the shit out of me. I don't subscribe to the notion the Giants failed Manning, that they owe him anything, or that Manning deserves anything more or less than any other guy who's put on the line for the team.
The current Manning to me represents what I perceive as an overly sentimental owner, who has been pretty tone deaf in the face of a team with big, big problems for many years.
I'd like to get back to winning ASAP. I think I'm weird that way. I'd rather the Giants win with Tony Romo at QB than languish a little with Manning.
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Like Manning.
There is a current poster that still holds the San Diego situation against Eli, of course that is the same poster that said Eli's game didn't count last week because it was against Tampa, well at least said it doesn't fully count and should have an asterisk placed next to his stats.
I admit I'm not a fan of Manning -- the San Diego situation never sat well with me, and I wasn't impressed by how he handled the benching situation last year.
But I've been damn impressed with him as a football player. I think he's the toughest QB to ever have played the game, and I think in his era he has the least physical skills of all the QBs, and gotten the very most out of it. I also think he's the smartest QB of his era but a decent margin,
I also admit there's a group of Manning fans who just absolutely annoy the shit out of me. I don't subscribe to the notion the Giants failed Manning, that they owe him anything, or that Manning deserves anything more or less than any other guy who's put on the line for the team.
The current Manning to me represents what I perceive as an overly sentimental owner, who has been pretty tone deaf in the face of a team with big, big problems for many years.
I'd like to get back to winning ASAP. I think I'm weird that way. I'd rather the Giants win with Tony Romo at QB than languish a little with Manning.
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In comment 14186533 christian said:
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In comment 14186506 JOrthman said:
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is why anyone would feel antagonized on a "pro Eli" thread. I mean we are all Giants fans right? If Eli plays well that is a good thing right? Shouldn't we all enjoy that? It's not like Mara is saying in his head..."I was going to cut Eli, but BBI says he is playing well so let's keep him..."
You're clearly missing the point. Eli Manning gets a nasty note any time someone disrespects him on BBI.
It's killing him.
You're right I don't. I've never understood why he is so polarizing to GIANTS fans. I've been on this board since 99. I don't recall anyone player especially a QB with constant threads on them. When KC was our QB, he would have really good games and some bad games, yet he never drew this amount of discussion and he didn't have the resume Eli does. It's baffling to me.
the Giants are about to miss the playoffs for the sixth time in seven years. Fans are angry and look for the root cause. Some like me feel its Eli others feel it was Reese and others feel its a combo.
By contrast, The Kerry Collins era was only 4 seasons, two of which were playoff years one of which we went to the super bowl and the other playoff loss was not at all his fault.
Les, I know you've been around awhile. You know this isn't something new. This has been this way his entire career.
I doubt it effects him as well, but that really wasn't the point in me bringing it up.
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is a big boy and he can live with some of the fans disliking him. I'm sure he hates you back.
I doubt it effects him as well, but that really wasn't the point in me bringing it up.
I was not making a reference to anything you wrote.
I was here for Dave brown Kanell Maddox and Graham. The Elicomments are tame in comparison
I was here for Dave brown Kanell Maddox and Graham. The Elicomments are tame in comparison
Yeah, but that's really not even an apples to apples comparison as everyone would agree they sucked. ;)
I don't think anyone on this board hates Eli. He just isn't putting the team on his back and winning games anymore. If he's not part of the solution then why pay so much? If he wanted to donate $20 million of his salary to go out and sign more beast OL like everyone wants, then I would understand keeping him.
But Eli has made more money than any other player in the NFL right now. So 0 chance he takes a pay cut. The Giants also don't owe him anything.
I don't think anyone on this board hates Eli. He just isn't putting the team on his back and winning games anymore. If he's not part of the solution then why pay so much? If he wanted to donate $20 million of his salary to go out and sign more beast OL like everyone wants, then I would understand keeping him.
But Eli has made more money than any other player in the NFL right now. So 0 chance he takes a pay cut. The Giants also don't owe him anything.
But that doesn't answer my question. What specific contract details do you propose. I'm well aware of cap hit, roster bonus, workout bonus, and salary on his current contract.
The Roster bonus is a contract tool to force a decision by the Giants. If you eliminate that option, then the Giants can squat on his rights and Eli's chances of signing on another team is greatly diminished past OTAs (Most teams looking for a vet qb want them in for OTAs). There has to be a compromise that satisfies both parties. If you eliminate a roster bonus, then be prepared to guarantee his new salary.
So the question is what salary do you propose that makes sense? You are starting with eating the $6.2M of his remaining SB that has to be accounted for. His yearly cash on his existing contract for next year is $17M. If you eliminate the roster bonus, but guarantee his salary then you have $11.5M in salary and $500K in workout bonus. Let's say we have to keep a workout bonus. Because otherwise, he doesn't have to show up for OTAs.
When you look at starting QB salaries that are on the second contract (I'm eliminating QBs on rookie contracts), Eli will be making less than the poster-boy of team friendly contracts in Tom Brady who will have a $14M salary.
So for every poster that demands Eli take a pay cut, how do you propose that he do so? Please give details.
He would sign an extension but his play and record hasn't warranted it.
You compare his contract numbers to Tom Brady, who just signed a 2 year contract and only makes maginally more than Eli's base pay. Yet, Brady is coming off a Super Bowl appearance...so really there isn't a comparison.
The only way I see Eli starting next year is if he runs the table.
I'm sure his advisors are against it, but the number one reason I wouldn't do it (if I were him) is realistic expectations: say Eli kicks back half of his salary to beef up the team, and management goes out and buys two Nate Solders? Who would be dumber, management, or Eli for giving them the money?
Now, keep in mind, with the projected increase in salary cap for next year, we will have an estimated $35M in cap space. We aren't pressed against the cap that we need to renegotiate the last year of Eli's contract.
You are right. We don't owe Eli anything as he doesn't owe the Giants anything. If we want to treat all players as equal with no favorites, then we should insist all players play up to the expectation of their contract. All too often, it is demanded that Eli take a paycut. Yet, he is on pace to have his best year of his career. But very few, demand that OV take a paycut. He hasn't earned his contract not just for this year. He is only 2nd to Odell for the richest contract on the books. He is stealing $13M this year and is slated to fleece $15.5M for 2019 and 2020. $43.5M for the next three years. Prom dates have faced more pressure than what OV delivers.