No need to force a QB pick this year when we still need 3/5 of an offensive line and a whole new defense.
I agree, only problem is I think Manning has lost his vision of the field. Seems to miss a lot of open receivers and/or doesnt seem to have the confidence to make a lot of throws. Couple that with a coach that doesnt seem to be able to make gametime adjustments and you are looking at, with an improved O-Line, maybe 5 and 11 again next year.
No need to force a QB pick this year when we still need 3/5 of an offensive line and a whole new defense.
I agree, only problem is I think Manning has lost his vision of the field. Seems to miss a lot of open receivers and/or doesnt seem to have the confidence to make a lot of throws. Couple that with a coach that doesnt seem to be able to make gametime adjustments and you are looking at, with an improved O-Line, maybe 5 and 11 again next year.
And then we move on to our next QB. Ideally with a whole line and some pieces on D. Not to mention the best WR-RB tandem in the NFL.
do you expect the Giants to say? "We're absolutely cutting him at the end of the year." He's the best QB in the history of the franchise, and there are still games to play.
But he's done. I'd be stunned if he came back next year, let alone as the starter, especially at $17M. He has no mobility, and isn't seeing enough of the field on many plays. The Giants FO damaged his career because they didn't draft or sign enough decent OL. But that doesn't change the fact that they need to move on to someone else.
He's past his expiration date by 4 years, we have two young dynamic offensive weapons who need another wasted season and plenty of crappy defenders. Who wouldn't want to watch this shit show for another year?
season. The Manning family if going to be very persuasive against young Eli having another embarrassing season when he has no chance to be a premier quarterback anymore.
There is also pointlessly exposing himself to a serious injury while playing for nothing.
The Manning family must really feel sick watching Eli's career end this way.
The team has many holes to fill and is still 2 to 3 years away from fielding a solid team. Keeps the door open if they can't get the QB they want in this year's draft.
Reporters usually catch Mara for some comments and he can't help spilling beans.
That was the occasion last December when he pretty much said Eli was coming back, before the GM interviews.
The $5M has to be paid in March, before the draft pick will be known, so that affects planning.
Ralph V deserves the credit for this report, whatever it's worth, but he is wrong about the Giants going to Manning for a pay cut if they bring him back. Mara will not do that.
And zero point zero chance Eli will retire. Listen to Ell, not Archie. Eli will hold on like grim death unless Mara tells him it's over.
We need to find out what Lauletta brings to the table...
The Giants could possibly win one or two more games, which could drop them out of the top 10, making it harder to draft a qb.....
With time, Eli shows he can still manage the game....If they concentrate on the OL in the off season, and possibly find a 3rd WR, who knows, this offense may take off.....But unfortunately, I agree, Eli is just not seeing the field like he use to.......and I don't think the arm strength is there anymore.....there is a big difference in lobbing a pass 30-40 vs firing it.....keeping him another year, especially if there are no options to replace him, seems like a waste.....but fans want victories, not losing seasons.....and if ownership wants wins, then Eli might be the better option.....However, unless Eli has a once in a lifetime season, think they would entertain extending him? NO, I don't think so....so why pay 17M(he does not make 20M) on a ONE YEAR RENTAL WHEN IT CAN BE USED IN THE REBUILD?...His 6M in dead money is on the books whether he is here or not....
As for the defense, it needs a lot of help.....
The problem with the defense, in addition to lack of players, is coaching.....how many times do we see guys wide open, because guys don't know their assignments? You see this time and again, especially on 3rd down....
Archie has already hinted that Eli will retire at the end of this
Reese's Pieces : 8:51 pm : link : reply
season. There is also pointlessly exposing himself to a serious injury while playing for nothing.
17M is not playing for nothing.....and don't tell me he has enough money.....you mean he might get injured, in the third game and not play the last 13 and still collect 17M? Gee, that's tough.....
If anything, he would be playing for something, especially if he felt they would put an OL in front of him.....he would want to show what he could do with a functioning OL and run game....he will want to play.....the question is, do the Giants want him?
Until they move on from Eli the organization is stuck in the past. No true tlrue rebuild without a new QB in the building. Eli is not a mentor, if hes here, hes the man.
I only see this ending 3 ways: 1. Career ending injury 2. DG drafts a QB in 1st rd and Eli retires before camp. 3. He plays out his contract in 2019 then is cut. Other than #2 hes not leaving voluntarily which screws the organization until he does.
For another 4-12 campaign with a mistake prone immobile checkdown Charlie leading the way. At least he doesnt say mean things about ex coaches
I would sign up for 4-12 right now in 2019. It should be all about Tua and possibly Fromm in the 2020 draft. I hate to say this, but Eli probably gives us a better chance at being terrible. Plus, the schedule will probably be tough with it featuring New England, Chicago, Green Bay, Minnesota, an improved SF, and 6 division games where well be lucky to win 1 or 2.
At some point in the not so distant future, we will once again have a stable veteran-laced O-line, good running game, WRs that have a strong catching radius, and a defense that can put immense pressure on the opposing team's stronger QB. And it will all come together so Eli can step up once again and play "lights out" in the playoffs in fashion that is heads above better than he typically shows during the regular season. And the Giants will ultimately win its 3rd Super Bowl with him at the helm.
He's the current starter. He hasn't announced his retirement. Why would you send the message that "Yeah, he's the guy for now, but as soon as this season is over, we're dropping him whether we have a plan to replace him or not." You wouldn't do that to Eli or to the CURRENT team.
Whether they've ruled him out already as the 2019 starter means nothing. They can rule him out the day after the season is over, if they want to.
The surprise will be if Eli retires at the end of the year. I just dont see that happening.
I think DG will concentrate on improving both the OL and defensive front seven in free agency and the draft.
Not sure I 7nderstand the logic of some on this thread
If you choose Ben, why is that giving back 2 SB titles? Is the presumption that Ben cant win two SB titles? Im pretty sure he did. Rivers? Sure you can argue he cant w8n the big one(which I think is a dumb argument), but Ben did.
And just so dep doesnt coming in here to save Eli from my vicious attack ala Kevin Costner in The Bodyguard, knowing what I know now I would make the same trade and ride with Eli. Ben and Rivers are excellent QBs and you can win titles with either, but Ill always love me some Eli.
RE: Not sure I 7nderstand the logic of some on this thread
If you choose Ben, why is that giving back 2 SB titles? Is the presumption that Ben cant win two SB titles? Im pretty sure he did. Rivers? Sure you can argue he cant w8n the big one(which I think is a dumb argument), but Ben did.
And just so dep doesnt coming in here to save Eli from my vicious attack ala Kevin Costner in The Bodyguard, knowing what I know now I would make the same trade and ride with Eli. Ben and Rivers are excellent QBs and you can win titles with either, but Ill always love me some Eli.
Ill just chime in that you're on the wrong thread :)
Eli will be back for 2019 and possibly beyond until this franchise finds it's next future QB.
It seems Eli has no desire to play anywhere else and wouldn't waive his no trade clause. Ownership wouldn't try and disrespect him further after last year's embarrassing QB move.
Signing a transition QB wouldn't make any sense. They will patchwork where they can and hope Eli leads them to the the playoffs.
The problem is there are no guarantees they will find that person whether a vet or draft pick. Thats all part of being in QB hell. And yes, the Giants ARE IN QB HELL right now.
If there isnt a QB of the future, what do you think the Giants should do, force it? I sure as hell hope not as that will really phuque things up.
If the Giants draft a QB in the first round they need to rip the bandaid off and go through the growing pains. Get them on tree field and get experience.
If they draft one later that needs more work, there is a very good chance Eli will be back as the bridge QB. I dont see any point in bringing in a stop-gap vet. I could be wrong, but name one that will do better than Eli? I would like Eli to take a pay cut, however.
If the Giants find a vet that is a long-term answer, more power to them.
"Lack of alternatives" will be the reasoning. Nevermind the fact that they handpicked their developmental guy who will be in Year 2 for a franchise in a rebuild. Kind of the perfect time to play him. They may have that intention too but I can 100% see them justifying Eli at 23M with the intentions of having him compete with Lauletta. 23M for veteran competition. Sounds about right for this franchise.
put an end to your inane debate. Not only his father and brother, but his own family surely don't want to see any more of this. Coming to work for another three win team.
Yes, Eli on his own, and Eli and his brother have an obscene amount of money and playing under these miserable conditions, and risking, say, a blow to the head or a crushed leg is not worth it.
At some point in the not so distant future, we will once again have a stable veteran-laced O-line, good running game, WRs that have a strong catching radius, and a defense that can put immense pressure on the opposing team's stronger QB. And it will all come together so Eli can step up once again and play "lights out" in the playoffs in fashion that is heads above better than he typically shows during the regular season. And the Giants will ultimately win its 3rd Super Bowl with him at the helm.
the starter. In fact, I really hope that they can stockpile picks to hopefully draft a guy like Tua NEXT year and then allow Eli to groom him for a year.
He's healthy, he can still play and make all the throws, and now, that Shurmur has figured out how to make him productive, they can probably win some more games.
Again, you must ask what is the actual plan going forward
if he does stay he better take a big pay cut because he is not worth the money. That said if Kyle comes in and shows nothing they need someone to start the season. The Giants will draft a QB just not sure if he starts right away if they do.
it makes sense for the organization to keep this option open.
Especially with the QBs looming in this draft. If they didn't believe in Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Jackson, now they are going to believe in these guys? Doesn't make sense, this crop is worse.
I'd rather have Eli than a Bridgewater or a McCown.
Load up on the OL and ER and Eli's last year will be in 2019.
if there is no QB they love, why not roll out Eli for the last year. Actually, after the first Eagle game I thought it was all she wrote, but with the o line improving to bad from abysmal, Eli looks very similar to how he always has been.
Even this past debacle, he did lead team to game tying FG, and it likely would have been a go ahead TD drive if one of two penalties on Beckham were called. I know if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle and all, bht Eli can still play and forcing a new QB for one year makes little sense.
if they don't have any QBs they like in the draft, but don't bring him back at the current salary.. Its just not worth it.. tell him to take a decent pay cut and use that money on a center.. Get me a veteran who a can play center and use the draft of OL and DL..
If we are looking at 3-13 to 6-10 record with a stop gap QB there are many options cheaper than Eli..
RE: which I posted here a few months ago was the plan
and reading posts where he is evaluated as being able to make all the throws makes one laugh pretty hard when he misses players running open every game. the excuses are already baked in about trashing the rest of the org when they finish 5-11.
He's never even had an injury. His older brother played two years past his expiration date with a bad shoulder and it was still good enough to win a Super Bowl. Good luck replacing Eli. Lots of failed QB's were drafted in the top 5. Lauletta will have to wait his turn. The same players who raved about Davis Webb's potential haven't said a word about KL. Now watch us go and draft Kyle Shurmur three rounds higher than he's projected.....
We will continue to improve the O-line in the off season. I am hoping for a veteran RT and a veteran Center in the free agency period. Another vet two-way TE would help as well, but as far as the draft I do believe that this year is going to be all about the Defense. The talent in the front seven dictates it, and our lack of talent demands it.
Eli will be much better in his second year of this offense IF Shurmur is retained. I don't think we want to tear it down again so soon, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Not seeing an OT worth the pick at this point. I'd wager on defense.
I think it all depends where we pick. If we are somewhere between 6-10, I can see us looking at Jonah. If guys like Bosa, Ferrell, and Williams are gone before we pick.... A QB? Gary/Oliver? Cornerback Baker? I think there will be a lot of disucssion there.
It's pretty sad to see Manning play mop up for this organization during the rebuild.
The last month has given a reprieve, but this Sunday he'll be treated to reality against a fine Chicago defense.
The trajectory of team talent vs. the trajectory of Manning's decline doesn't align for the Giants.
There aren't enough draft picks or money to get this turned around in the time Manning has good football left in the tank.
It's looking like a 3 year re-build, and a bad team next year. I guess it's financially prudent to keep Manning and let he get beat like bag another year -- but that's nothing to celebrate.
Ok Ill play. Since were a 3-4 and the edge rushers arent there apparently, unless we take Bosa in the top 2, then the best bet I think might be the LSU CB or the Alabama FS. I know the prospect of taking a DB over an explosive edge rusher or stud OT coming off 3-13 or 4-12 is a bummer, but truth be told, this team needs talent everywhere; especially on defense.
Not seeing an OT worth the pick at this point. I'd wager on defense.
DL is way to go with first rd.
They seriously need to think about extending eli after next season because there isnt likely another better replacing him in near future. They are getting any of those qbs talked about in 2020 likely (as not being in position to if wanted)
The writing is on the wall
Knineteen : 11/28/2018 10:45 pm : link : reply
Eli will be back for 2019 and possibly beyond until this franchise finds it's next future QB.
Signing a transition QB wouldn't make any sense. They will patchwork where they can and hope Eli leads them to the the playoffs.
You expect him to be playing in his 40's?
RE: I think the speculation that DG undervalues DBs
is probably accurate, would be shocked if he picked a DB that high. He's a front seven GM.
You sure he undervalued DBs? I mean he gave up a third for Beal in the supplemental and refused to give up Collins unless he got a 2nd, if the KC rumors were correct at the deadline.
declares and he's there when Giants pick and they pass, I gotta think BBI might combust
He won't be there. Every team realizes that we will be interested in QBs. We are the floor for any QB worthy of a top pick. Any team that wants a QB in this draft will be looking to trade up ahead of us.
Eli will retire at the end of this year, even though it will
Reese's Pieces : 2:31 am : link : reply
put an end to your inane debate.
Taxman takes two thirds of his millions, anyway.
Fed is 37%, state 9%, or 46% without deductions....a smart tax accountant/lawyer will reduce that more....
Nothing like watching the fading career of an aging veteran
Like Emmitt Smith in the Arizona years. We are going to raise a generation of Giants fans who only knew an Eli with a losing career record, in seasons that are highlighted by eeeking out wins over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or the GM raving about how he still has it in losses to Philly. Theyll remember the headlines of Odell complaining about him and fans calling for backup talents like Davis Webb and Kyle Laletta to get their shot every time he has a bad game. Then when he does eventually hit the wall, which he will, things are going to digress from sad to depressing.
only makes sense if you think this team is a contender next season.....I don't, and the 17M could be used in the rebuild...
So we use Lauletta or a journeyman for a year......what is the difference between 3-13 and 6-10/7-9? It's still a losing season.....concentrate on building blocks, not Eli's swan song season....
Only way this team is a contender is if you fix the OL and DL, and you can't do both in one season....
How did DG's plan work? Let's put a rookie at LG....he has steadily been better, but had growing pains in the beginning of the year(think that won't happen with rookies next year?)....Let's trade Jones, and have a revolving door at center, where none of them have been better than Jones....Let's sign Omameh.....Meh? Let's move Flowers to RT.....Oh, yeah.....
So we need a C(Halapio coming back is a joke), RG, and RT? After this season, think DG can do it? And what about the defense? WE hire a 3-4 defensive coach, but don't have the players to play a 3-4 defense....Brilliant! Think that is going to be fixed in one season?
You are lucky to get 2 starters from a draft.....we got two...that's it.....Carter and Hill are out there because there is no one else.....and look at the position we were picking from, at the top of every round.....
And name one FA that DG has signed that is a building block on this team?
I have no confidence in DG's so-called plan....this team will not be a contender for next season, and hard decisions have to be made on Eli, OV and several others....ownership was sold a bill of goods that this team could have a quick turnaround.....How much better is it now than it was last year?....are the prospects for the future any better than last year? The OL still is not fixed, we have no future qb, and the defense has more holes than swiss cheese....
DG, Shurm, and Bettcher.....Man did we hit the trifecta or what?
Not surprising based on organizational decisions made this year however! Eli must be forced to retire and the cap dollars saved used to build the team's trenches. We could then go out and get a stop gap QB for much less dollars and then consider drafting a guy the following year when the QBs in the draft are supposedly of much better quality. They really feel Eli can still win games for them, but if the team is in fact rebuilding, which it appears that they are, then they need to go full bore and not half ass this thing. If that means we're just as bad next year, then so be it, but if we continue drafting wisely and building up the team with additional talent, then there's no sense in bringing Eli back. Is it for nostalgia? I thought DG was better then that. Is it Mara forcing this or does Shurmur really think Eli can still be the guy next year?
Not surprising based on organizational decisions made this year however! Eli must be forced to retire and the cap dollars saved used to build the team's trenches. We could then go out and get a stop gap QB for much less dollars and then consider drafting a guy the following year when the QBs in the draft are supposedly of much better quality. They really feel Eli can still win games for them, but if the team is in fact rebuilding, which it appears that they are, then they need to go full bore and not half ass this thing. If that means we're just as bad next year, then so be it, but if we continue drafting wisely and building up the team with additional talent, then there's no sense in bringing Eli back. Is it for nostalgia? I thought DG was better then that. Is it Mara forcing this or does Shurmur really think Eli can still be the guy next year?
Put it this way. Everyone knows we are rebuilding since we are undermanned in a lot of positions.
They look at this QB class and say meh.... not seeing a future QB. They look at the FA class are are like meh.... not much. They look at Lauletta and say.... meh.... doesnt have it.
You keep Eli. Your draft is built on the trenches and get another OL and an Edge rusher. Possibly a center later on.... thats a rebuild. 2020 draft comes and they have a chance to get a future QB. Now you have 3/5th of your OL who are young. Barkley. OBJ. Probably SS and EE....
as bad as having a political thread on BBI. But take a step back and look at the big picture. Scenario 1: they had taken a QB this last draft. Your choice which one. Do you think said QB would be having any success in this scheme with this OL AND with NO BARKLEY as a diversion? Eli would either be on the bench or cut. How many of those or any QB would not have been injured with the onslaught they've faced? And what do you think Odell would be saying at his locker after a rookie QB failed to get him the ball enough?
Scenario 2: Giants ditch Eli in 2019 picking a QB in the draft and or getting a 'mobile' veteran QB. Which mobile veteran QB will be available and do you think they would do that much better in a new system than Eli would with a year under his belt? The drafted QB; do you think they would be able to step in and take this team with the porous defense and average line to the playoffs? Remember you took a QB with your top pick so you either forgo an OL or a Edge rusher or a CB which will all be needs in the off season.
Scenario 3: Keep Eli around(hopefully you can restructure and give him 2 years with the knowledge that next will be his last, cap gurus help me out with this) and IF there is a QB you love or IF a QB a falls to you in round 2 take him. Focus on the lines, offensive and defensive. I think this year ESPECIALLY, you can see the difference good lines make, both offensively and defensively. If you give the 38 year old QB 3 or 4 seconds to pass he's more than capable of moving you down field and leading a productive offense(especially in the final to minutes!). If we had the edge rushers to help our tiring DB's I believe you'd have different outcomes in at least 4 or 5 of our games. Once you have a line in place or close to set you look for a QB. A decent line WITH a runner like SB will make even an average QB that much more productive.
...1/4 of what he is ripping the Giants off for. So yes bring him back as the Giants are experts at over paying washed up players. Makes perfect sense.
...1/4 of what he is ripping the Giants off for. So yes bring him back as the Giants are experts at over paying washed up players. Makes perfect sense.
If we decide not to draft AND start a rook QB next year, give me Eli. Or, if they draft a QB and want Eli to mentor him for a year.
But it has to be a discounted price in the $8-10 million range. Both the organization and Eli have to realize where he is, what he's giving us, and that the team has needs that can be addressed with that money.
Why not, I think the Giants will draft a QB in round 1, and I also think Beckham gets traded so they have multiple first round picks and others to maneuver around to get the QB in here. I would not be shocked to see them add another the following season when Eli is out of here, and depending on how much they like the new QB they will either get a higher profile veteran to take over, a career backup veteran, or draft another QB high, they must get the new QB in the next two draft for certain, they can not fuck this up or they will be screwed.
Eli won't take a pay cut and probably shouldn't be asked to take one.
His cap number doesn't justify a bridge QB or mentor QB for a team in rebuild. If we were SB contenders? Sure. But when you dig into it, it makes zero sense to overpay to that extent for a player that does absolutely nothing to bring you closer to a championship. You are better off signing a backup type QB to a 3-6m/yr deal, letting him compete with Lauletta and spending the difference on the best available OL free agent. We're talking about a difference of 10-15m to play with on a team with holes everywhere.
I've seen a lot of the keep Eli while we fix this or that until we can draft a franchise guy. Well...we only have so much cap room and so many draft picks. How are we plugging these holes? OL and Edge Rusher are the two most in demand positions. You have to pick that up from somewhere and Eli, being in the last year of his deal, is the biggest no brainer on the roster.
The team is 3-8. They were 3-13 last year (and Eli was 3-12). Eli continues to mismanage the play clock like a rookie instead of a 15 year veteran (either by burning timeouts or taking delay of game penalties). Are you so blinded by your undying affection for Eli that you're incapable of recognizing that he's every bit part of the problem as about half a dozen (or more) other factors with this team?
The 2nd highest paid player in NFL history is very likely going to finish this season with a career W/L record below .500 and fewer than 20 passing TDs for the 2nd consecutive year, but let's trot him out there for another season at 38 years old and a cap number that is commensurate with a franchise QB while he continues to play at a journeyman game manager level.
If this report is in any way true, this franchise is even more misbegotten than they appeared to be already.
And the Giants' offense has averaged 29 points in those three games.
Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano
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@RVacchianoSNY
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Odell Beckham averaged 12.8 yards per catch in the first eight weeks of the season. ... In the last three weeks, with better play from the O-line and Eli Manning, his average has jumped to 17.8 yards per catch.
Use that salary for the best young OL on the market. Play Kyle or a rookie next year. Do not pay a 16 million journeyman or Eli next year. The team is 6-21 with Eli, we could do that with a fit BBI poster. Eli taking another snap is a stupid waste of precious time and cap dollars.
This is all baffling to me. How could anyone be behind Eli playing next year? We are all well aware of the ultimate results of the last 27 games with Eli as the starting QB. How much worse would it be with a mobile and very cheap QB? Put Elis cap dollars towards the best under 30 FA lineman on the market. All Pro type player. Feed Barkley the ball and let the young QB make some plays with his legs. This would be much more interesting and a far greater long term upside for the franchise. Playing Eli next year would represent gross mismanagement of the franchise to me.
a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
Those are the numbers that Ralph is posting on Twitter.
That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
You do know a few things...
1. All pro under 30 OL probably wont leave their teams.
2. Other teams have more $$$$ than we do.
3. We stink
a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
You do know a few things...
1. All pro under 30 OL probably wont leave their teams.
2. Other teams have more $$$$ than we do.
3. We stink
If we cut Eli we will have enough. All Pro under 30 will sign with whoever guarantees them the most dollars. Would rather have Eli or Clowney next year?
I'm hoping that somehow none of the players, coaches, or front office
That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
We don't have 2 options. We do not have to pay a 16 million dollar journeyman.
RE: I'm hoping that somehow none of the players, coaches, or front office
If we cut Eli we will have enough. All Pro under 30 will sign with whoever guarantees them the most dollars. Would rather have Eli or Clowney next year?
I much rather have Clowney.... but you are just assuming teams wont offer him more money. And you sure aint shit giving Clowney 15-17 million a year either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What all-pro lineman is under 30 and
If we cut Eli we will have enough. All Pro under 30 will sign with whoever guarantees them the most dollars. Would rather have Eli or Clowney next year?
I much rather have Clowney.... but you are just assuming teams wont offer him more money. And you sure aint shit giving Clowney 15-17 million a year either.
We should cut Eli, try to move or cut Vernon and go after a guy like Clowney. I would rather have Clowney than pay for for Collins. How about Demarcus Lawrence? taking him away from Dallas could help with addition and subtraction.
RE: RE: Those are the numbers that Ralph is posting on Twitter.
That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
We don't have 2 options. We do not have to pay a 16 million dollar journeyman.
They're just not going to throw out some 4th round project pick (Lauletta) week one, nor are they going to throw out their 1st round draft pick (if it happens to be a QB).
They are going to need a veteran both to start the season, and to mentor the young QB.
It's going to be Eli, barring a retirement or injury.
Trent Brown, Daryl Williams, Taylor Lewan, Ali Marpet, Sheldon Richardson, Frank CLark ect.
Kewan just signed a 5 year extension
Sheldon Richardson sucks balls
Frank Clark aint that good either
Ali Marpet is extended through 2023
Williams is coming off a major injury
So ummm.... none of these guys are remotely an option.
RE: RE: RE: Those are the numbers that Ralph is posting on Twitter.
That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
We don't have 2 options. We do not have to pay a 16 million dollar journeyman.
They're just not going to throw out some 4th round project pick (Lauletta) week one, nor are they going to throw out their 1st round draft pick (if it happens to be a QB).
They are going to need a veteran both to start the season, and to mentor the young QB.
It's going to be Eli, barring a retirement or injury.
It is what it is.
I agree that is likely with Gettleman/Shurmur. No argument. I am saying that is fucking stupid for the organizationgiven the results of the last 27 games. Would rather cut Eli, play anyone and sign a young All Pro free agent on either line. I would rather them play a rookie or cheap second year guy.
Trent Brown, Daryl Williams, Taylor Lewan, Ali Marpet, Sheldon Richardson, Frank CLark ect.
Kewan just signed a 5 year extension
Sheldon Richardson sucks balls
Frank Clark aint that good either
Ali Marpet is extended through 2023
Williams is coming off a major injury
So ummm.... none of these guys are remotely an option.
Lewan*
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What all-pro lineman is under 30 and
a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
Spot on. Because your next play can be your last and teams will basically toss you away like a tissue.
of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
If we're talking about a hedge on Lauletta, then 23m is a bit overkill no? Below is a list of potential free agent QBs and current salaries. I have no problem foregoing the bloated top tier guys like Bridgewater or Tyrod in favor of the next rung of players. I'd have Shurmur identify some veterans in that tier that fit with idea that they are competing with Lauletta. You are hoping Lauletta can win the job and are looking at these guys as a hedge. There are also trade options out there as well, CJ Beathard is a player that should be available on a dirt cheap salary. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/quarterback/ - ( New Window )
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season.
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
The FO handpicked the guy to develop, they did so at the expense of the previous years' 3rd round pick. At some point you have to play these guys, especially in a rebuild. I think year 2 is as good a time as any.
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
I am suggesting that Lauletta is the plan as well. You are simply looking to hedge against the risk of an uknown and raise the floor of the position by going the McCown route. You're not replacing Eli with him. Nothing against Eli but his number doesn't justify that type of role on the team, it's overkill.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
You sure about that?
RE: RE: RE: And they free up what? 10 million by doing so?
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
No one really believes he would get traded, he has no value to any team at his salary. Cutting him is a very real possibility and I pray for it. I think it is close to 50/50 because of the recent ineptitude of our ownership and GM.
This is an important concept, and a key reason the Giants have been as poor as they have.
"Fixing the holes that can be fixed" is what the Giants have been trying to do. They diagnose a problem and then allocate resources to solve that problem. It's a reactive approach - see problem, fix problem.
A different approach is needed...one that is based on accomplishing stated goals and objectives - "I want our team to be X; here's what we have to do to achieve that." A proactive approach.
The Giants don't know what they are. Worse, they don't know what they want to be. When they win or lose, they don't know why they won or lost.
I can't stress this enough...this is at the heart of the problem. Until this problem is corrected, everything else is window dressing.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
RE: RE: RE: RE: we should start generating rationalizations
of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
He's not a franchise QB anymore, he's not capable of playing at that level. He can't make plays on his own when the play (line) breaks down. Better to cut too early than too late
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
A large pay cut would work for me. Eli at 10 million is another ball game.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And you can tell me I'm trying to rationalize it all you want....
at this point, I don't really care who the QB is next year, and that's the truth. Would I like to see Eli get a shot to win again, sure, but if it's a new QB I'm ready to see the future too.
The truth is, the scenario I've laid out is much more likely to happen than any of the others.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
Haha - "Exactly" as if that's at all what you meant at any point on this thread.
Uh, that's exactly what I wrote that he was responding to....
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M per. Clowney isn't an elite player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
the sooner that people accept it, the less miserable they will be and focus on other things perhaps?
Not sure.
It's pretty reasonable for fans to be upset and voice it when the management and ownership repeat mistakes. As customers, expressing sentiment and not supporting the team financially are the tools to impact decisions.
The Giants like all major organizations take customer sentiment into account on some level.
Hell, the owner regularly talks about reading fan mail.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
Well, by all means, please educate me on what your proposal is. I've linked his current contract so we are following the same details. Eli's Contract - ( New Window )
It's reasonable for people to feel however they want.
But what they want and what will happen are often very different.
Also what people want may not always be the right thing, even though they don't know it at the time.
People wanted Coughlin fired after 2006. A very loud and large contingent on BBI wrote letters to John Mara asking for him to be fired. They stayed the course.
That's not to say this is a comparable situation, but we are fans. We have little to no bearing on the machinations of the organization. The guys that run the show have gotten a long way, and made a lot of money, by following their gut and not bowing to fan expectations.
Cut Eli for a 17m net savings. Sign a 2nd tier FA QB at ~7m hit = 10m in cap room.
7m for a QB is actually conservative, the Bucs signed Fitzpatrick for 3.3m last year. I'd be shopping in that aisle for a 14m net savings with the hopes that Lauletta is the guy.
Josh McCown is one of the most expensive back up in the league
Only because it's the Giants and not because it's the wrong decision. This would be out of character. They probably need to start stepping out of character a little though.
Have there been other teams who've forced out a guy like Eli Manning, 15 year starter franchise type? Dead serious question. I'm trying to remember the last one that was outright cut.
Happened to Peyton, Favre and Montana. 3 of the greatest ever and management parted ways. Obviously there were some greats waiting to play behind them, so not completely apples to apples with Eli. However, to be fair, not many franchises have completely cratered under the watch of a franchise QB like the Giants have. There's not a large precedent of franchise QBs with one playoff appearance, a losing record over a 7 season stretch and back back lottery picks.
Have there been other teams who've forced out a guy like Eli Manning, 15 year starter franchise type? Dead serious question. I'm trying to remember the last one that was outright cut.
Phil Simms, Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts and Dan Marino come to mind.
Will probably start Eli next year because of the way they handled this year and last year. Agreed. I think they are morons for doing it. Every snap Eli takes is 1 snap longer until we have a team capable of competing again. No one has proven any value to sitting. You cannot prove that those sat and succeeded would not have succeeded if they played right away. Even Eli says you have to play. The fact that there is no developmental QB on the roster ready to take a snap right now knowing the results of the last 6 years is a humongous indictment on those running the franchise. They admitted they fucked up last year. They did the same fucking the again, knowing everything from last year. I have zero confidence in the organization to return us to glory anytime soon. They keep punting difficult decision to future years and continue to hire head coaches that are unproven(McAdoo) or past failures as head coached(Pat Shurmur)
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
I would think that would be a fair compromise. Given the number of times anyone named Manning has given back a penny though, I'd peg the chances of it at ~0%.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
I would think that would be a fair compromise. Given the number of times anyone named Manning has given back a penny though, I'd peg the chances of it at ~0%.
You know Eli would love to pass his brother as the all time career earner. Peyton is number 1 at 248 million Eli is currently number 2 at 235 million...
Have there been other teams who've forced out a guy like Eli Manning, 15 year starter franchise type? Dead serious question. I'm trying to remember the last one that was outright cut.
Phil Simms, Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts and Dan Marino come to mind.
Obviously this requires a somewhat specific set of circumstances - first of all, you're dealing with a very small pool of players when you start by limiting it to "15 year starter franchise type" QBs. There's not a ton of those guys to begin with. And it's narrowed further by only really considering QBs in the salary cap era, where the decision impacts overall roster construction rather than just the binary choice of whether to keep the player or not, based solely of the quality of his play, not a valuation of his play relative to his cap number.
Then within that group, you're further limiting it to players who have time remaining on their contract and believe they can still play at a high level (and want to continue to do so, or try to), while their team may feel otherwise - many players might have been in this scenario but saw the writing on the wall themselves and chose to retire, thereby taking the difficult decision away from the organization.
So the simple answer is, yes, there have been other teams who have faced this type of situation before, but it's not necessarily that common. But the frequency of the situation presenting itself doesn't really have anything to do with how a team should approach their options. I'm not saying that it doesn't have an impact, just that it really shouldn't.
I agree with Gatorade Dunk, it's being understated that it's not that common.
And in many instances, I see Peyton Manning brought up for instance, that was an injury forced cut. They didn't know whether he would ever throw a football again and they were staring at Luck with the number one pick. Favre retired. I disagree that it was forced. I think he changed his mind and they had moved on. Aikman had a million concussions.
Like most things Eli, his career is unconventional, and the end is no different. He's a healthy player that has had no major injuries, and it's not injury driven. He can also still play a bit. It's a fairly unique situation and there aren't a lot of comps.
RE: As far as other situations where this has happened....
I agree with Gatorade Dunk, it's being understated that it's not that common.
And in many instances, I see Peyton Manning brought up for instance, that was an injury forced cut. They didn't know whether he would ever throw a football again and they were staring at Luck with the number one pick. Favre retired. I disagree that it was forced. I think he changed his mind and they had moved on. Aikman had a million concussions.
Like most things Eli, his career is unconventional, and the end is no different. He's a healthy player that has had no major injuries, and it's not injury driven. He can also still play a bit. It's a fairly unique situation and there aren't a lot of comps.
Exactly -- there isn't precedent for a healthy, declining, 15-year vet, on a talent depleted team.
I agree the Giants will retain Manning -- it's very in character for the team. It's the least controversial move, and it's plainly obvious Manning can still operate adequately when not facing a lot of pressure.
The sad part is the unless the Giants drastically improve 3/5 o-line positions and figure out what to do at TE or don't play any teams with a functional defense, Manning is going to get his ass kicked all over the field for another 21 games, and retire with a losing record.
Whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not - makes no sense to waste cap money on an old game manager QB when the team is clearly, at best, 2-3 years away from being talented.
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
RE: Save the $20M on Eli and start a scrub at low cost next year
Whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not - makes no sense to waste cap money on an old game manager QB when the team is clearly, at best, 2-3 years away from being talented.
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
That's just it you don't save 20 million. There is the dead money. The question is, are we saving enough between what you pay the journeyman plus the dead cap money.
I would be very skeptical if they run to the podium to pick a QB after last draft and this season. I don't want some retread either and I don't think they are going to Lauletta next year.
The only thing they have going for next year is that the division stinks.
RE: RE: Save the $20M on Eli and start a scrub at low cost next year
Whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not - makes no sense to waste cap money on an old game manager QB when the team is clearly, at best, 2-3 years away from being talented.
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
That's just it you don't save 20 million. There is the dead money. The question is, are we saving enough between what you pay the journeyman plus the dead cap money.
Pay the journeyman nothing for all I care. Go with Lauletta if it means saving money in a wasted year (which next year will be). Reallocate that money toward a building block in free agency.
I would be very skeptical if they run to the podium to pick a QB after last draft and this season. I don't want some retread either and I don't think they are going to Lauletta next year.
The only thing they have going for next year is that the division stinks.
You might think, but if you look as if the season ended today two of the division teams would be in the playoffs and one right there close to being in...only one that stinks in division is the ny giants
Where is the evidence that being around Eli is actually developmentally beneficial?
It sounds great, but none of the young QBs ever progressed here. Not necessarily Eli's fault but lends credence to the "I don't want to be a mentor" stuff. Eli's about Eli. Always has been. And that's not a bad thing. But he's not exactly a player development whiz according to his track record.
It's not necessarily about mentoring in the literal sense....
it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
He hasnt lost much, but we MUST continue to fix that OL to keep him upright, to give him more time. In the meantime, develop KL or a drafted QB for the future.
After watching Dallas last night, I think we are far away from competing in this division. Philly was down 19-3 to us and came back and beat us easily. They have their young franchise QB. If felt like they knew it would happen. I knew it would happen. The Redskins are in a way better spot than us as well. I am discouraged. Our coach has not lost the team, but it seems like the damn is about to break. The GM told us Eli still had it. He doesnt, it is obvious to those not fooled by outlier performances against bad teams. Eli can still win NFL games and is declining, he will get worse, not better, that isnt good enough. Once again we have been terrible, we are out of contention and our developmental QB is once again not ready to take a snap. We are the new Brown, they have graduated to hopeful and their arrow is pointing up. Las year we had injuries and no Barkley, this year the franchise just looks clueless.
is that DG doesn't spend on UFAs like a drunken sailor, because handing a QB or a Clowney a contract like Solder or OV has a strong chance of failing and turning into a handcuff without escape hatches.
RE: It's not necessarily about mentoring in the literal sense....
it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
As an example, Saquon was watching film for over an hour and Eli had popped in and sat down with him. Eli right away pointed out details that Saquon had missed. Saquon had said that Eli's experience was invaluable. Eli in those moments is teaching Saquon on how to prepare for an opponent that transcends what Saquon had known.
Um, no QB?
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
Honest question...Are you high all the time? We have no QB, are 6-21 since the start of last season, they were in first place until A Smith broke his leg. They are much better on the OL/DL than we are. 8 million in dead money vs 43 Million in dead money in 2018. In 2019, 600k dead money vs 9 million dead money and that doesn't count if we cut Eli or Vernon. Redskins are in a way better spot than NY.
Um, no QB?
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
Honest question...Are you high all the time? We have no QB, are 6-21 since the start of last season, they were in first place until A Smith broke his leg. They are much better on the OL/DL than we are. 8 million in dead money vs 43 Million in dead money in 2018. In 2019, 600k dead money vs 9 million dead money and that doesn't count if we cut Eli or Vernon. Redskins are in a way better spot than NY.
You're asking me questions a day after you said the Giants should sign an all-pro under 30 and listed 6 names who arent good or even available.
Alex Smith isnt a good QB despite breaking his leg. Every team he leaves gets better once he is gone.
Peterson is old
Williams is old
Records of the past mean shit when talking about the future. They dont have a barkley or Beckham on offense. They have some nice pieces sure.... but they have massive injuries that are building up on the OL. And jsut because they are in first in a shitty division, doesnt make them contenders anytime soon.
I have been very unimpressed with them this year even with Smith.
RE: It's not necessarily about mentoring in the literal sense....
it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
The flip side of that is the rookie gets shut out of practice and game snaps with Eli as opposed to some journeyman QB.
Its a lot easier to bench or split practice snaps with Fitzmagic than it is with Eli
RE: RE: It's not necessarily about mentoring in the literal sense....
it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
The flip side of that is the rookie gets shut out of practice and game snaps with Eli as opposed to some journeyman QB.
Its a lot easier to bench or split practice snaps with Fitzmagic than it is with Eli
Didn't hurt Aaron Rodgers or Phillip Rivers, who did it for years.
Um, no QB?
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
Honest question...Are you high all the time? We have no QB, are 6-21 since the start of last season, they were in first place until A Smith broke his leg. They are much better on the OL/DL than we are. 8 million in dead money vs 43 Million in dead money in 2018. In 2019, 600k dead money vs 9 million dead money and that doesn't count if we cut Eli or Vernon. Redskins are in a way better spot than NY.
You're asking me questions a day after you said the Giants should sign an all-pro under 30 and listed 6 names who arent good or even available.
Alex Smith isnt a good QB despite breaking his leg. Every team he leaves gets better once he is gone.
Peterson is old
Williams is old
Records of the past mean shit when talking about the future. They dont have a barkley or Beckham on offense. They have some nice pieces sure.... but they have massive injuries that are building up on the OL. And jsut because they are in first in a shitty division, doesnt make them contenders anytime soon.
I have been very unimpressed with them this year even with Smith.
The Redskins were 6-3 before Smith got hurt...this year! When was the last time the Giants were 6-3 to start a season?
that Eli Manning this year was leaps and bounds better than Smith?
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb Their play is about a wash, but this about the teams. Eli is getting a lot of mileage out of dump offs to Barkley and garbage time stats in 2018. Smith was winning games. Smith is also making 4 million less in 2018.
he's been playing scared. He checks off when he's under pressure even though he has open receivers downfield because he can't move and he fears getting sacked. He needs to be replaced.
RE: Eli never had a great arm nor was at all mobile, but in recent years
he's been playing scared. He checks off when he's under pressure even though he has open receivers downfield because he can't move and he fears getting sacked. He needs to be replaced.
Sort of disagree. In Eli's prime he threw some of the best deep balls in the league (see throw to Manningham in SB XLVI down the sideline). He was never mobile but had enough pocket sense in his prime to evade pressure (like Dan Marino who was also immobile). Now it's pretty clear that the Giants and Eli need to move on and mutually agree on a way to do so. This is what I'd do:
Eli plays until the Giants are mathematically eliminated (probably next week)
Prior to Week 15, a mutual announcement is made: Eli is retiring or will not return to the Giants next year. The Giants announce Lauletta as the starter in Weeks 15 and 16 to see what they have to determine whether he could be a long-term solution, a stop gap or not a solution.
Week 17 becomes "Eli Manning Day" and the organization dedicates the entire week to his Hall of Fame career and accomplishments. We're playing Dallas in Week 17, which is kind of apropos: Eli won his first career game against Dallas in Week 17, 2004, and could win his last game as a Giant against Dallas in Week 17 this year
it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
As an example, Saquon was watching film for over an hour and Eli had popped in and sat down with him. Eli right away pointed out details that Saquon had missed. Saquon had said that Eli's experience was invaluable. Eli in those moments is teaching Saquon on how to prepare for an opponent that transcends what Saquon had known.
I thought that's what Jonathan Stewart was being paid to do?
I agree, only problem is I think Manning has lost his vision of the field. Seems to miss a lot of open receivers and/or doesnt seem to have the confidence to make a lot of throws. Couple that with a coach that doesnt seem to be able to make gametime adjustments and you are looking at, with an improved O-Line, maybe 5 and 11 again next year.
Quote:
No need to force a QB pick this year when we still need 3/5 of an offensive line and a whole new defense.
I agree, only problem is I think Manning has lost his vision of the field. Seems to miss a lot of open receivers and/or doesnt seem to have the confidence to make a lot of throws. Couple that with a coach that doesnt seem to be able to make gametime adjustments and you are looking at, with an improved O-Line, maybe 5 and 11 again next year.
And then we move on to our next QB. Ideally with a whole line and some pieces on D. Not to mention the best WR-RB tandem in the NFL.
Eli at 20 million vs. Journeyman at 16 million or so.
👍
But he's done. I'd be stunned if he came back next year, let alone as the starter, especially at $17M. He has no mobility, and isn't seeing enough of the field on many plays. The Giants FO damaged his career because they didn't draft or sign enough decent OL. But that doesn't change the fact that they need to move on to someone else.
LINK - ( New Window )
And who wants to help with the sign we will attach to the plane?
Especially the rest of the Division.
There is also pointlessly exposing himself to a serious injury while playing for nothing.
The Manning family must really feel sick watching Eli's career end this way.
That was the occasion last December when he pretty much said Eli was coming back, before the GM interviews.
The $5M has to be paid in March, before the draft pick will be known, so that affects planning.
Ralph V deserves the credit for this report, whatever it's worth, but he is wrong about the Giants going to Manning for a pay cut if they bring him back. Mara will not do that.
And zero point zero chance Eli will retire. Listen to Ell, not Archie. Eli will hold on like grim death unless Mara tells him it's over.
The Giants could possibly win one or two more games, which could drop them out of the top 10, making it harder to draft a qb.....
With time, Eli shows he can still manage the game....If they concentrate on the OL in the off season, and possibly find a 3rd WR, who knows, this offense may take off.....But unfortunately, I agree, Eli is just not seeing the field like he use to.......and I don't think the arm strength is there anymore.....there is a big difference in lobbing a pass 30-40 vs firing it.....keeping him another year, especially if there are no options to replace him, seems like a waste.....but fans want victories, not losing seasons.....and if ownership wants wins, then Eli might be the better option.....However, unless Eli has a once in a lifetime season, think they would entertain extending him? NO, I don't think so....so why pay 17M(he does not make 20M) on a ONE YEAR RENTAL WHEN IT CAN BE USED IN THE REBUILD?...His 6M in dead money is on the books whether he is here or not....
As for the defense, it needs a lot of help.....
The problem with the defense, in addition to lack of players, is coaching.....how many times do we see guys wide open, because guys don't know their assignments? You see this time and again, especially on 3rd down....
Reese's Pieces : 8:51 pm : link : reply
season. There is also pointlessly exposing himself to a serious injury while playing for nothing.
17M is not playing for nothing.....and don't tell me he has enough money.....you mean he might get injured, in the third game and not play the last 13 and still collect 17M? Gee, that's tough.....
If anything, he would be playing for something, especially if he felt they would put an OL in front of him.....he would want to show what he could do with a functioning OL and run game....he will want to play.....the question is, do the Giants want him?
I only see this ending 3 ways: 1. Career ending injury 2. DG drafts a QB in 1st rd and Eli retires before camp. 3. He plays out his contract in 2019 then is cut. Other than #2 hes not leaving voluntarily which screws the organization until he does.
I would sign up for 4-12 right now in 2019. It should be all about Tua and possibly Fromm in the 2020 draft. I hate to say this, but Eli probably gives us a better chance at being terrible. Plus, the schedule will probably be tough with it featuring New England, Chicago, Green Bay, Minnesota, an improved SF, and 6 division games where well be lucky to win 1 or 2.
At some point in the not so distant future, we will once again have a stable veteran-laced O-line, good running game, WRs that have a strong catching radius, and a defense that can put immense pressure on the opposing team's stronger QB. And it will all come together so Eli can step up once again and play "lights out" in the playoffs in fashion that is heads above better than he typically shows during the regular season. And the Giants will ultimately win its 3rd Super Bowl with him at the helm.
Its almost laughable to think it won't happen...
Immobile QBs have won most of the recent Super Bowls Brady, Eli Peyton, Flacco and Rothlisberger.
Whether they've ruled him out already as the 2019 starter means nothing. They can rule him out the day after the season is over, if they want to.
I think DG will concentrate on improving both the OL and defensive front seven in free agency and the draft.
And just so dep doesnt coming in here to save Eli from my vicious attack ala Kevin Costner in The Bodyguard, knowing what I know now I would make the same trade and ride with Eli. Ben and Rivers are excellent QBs and you can win titles with either, but Ill always love me some Eli.
And just so dep doesnt coming in here to save Eli from my vicious attack ala Kevin Costner in The Bodyguard, knowing what I know now I would make the same trade and ride with Eli. Ben and Rivers are excellent QBs and you can win titles with either, but Ill always love me some Eli.
Ill just chime in that you're on the wrong thread :)
It seems Eli has no desire to play anywhere else and wouldn't waive his no trade clause. Ownership wouldn't try and disrespect him further after last year's embarrassing QB move.
Signing a transition QB wouldn't make any sense. They will patchwork where they can and hope Eli leads them to the the playoffs.
If there isnt a QB of the future, what do you think the Giants should do, force it? I sure as hell hope not as that will really phuque things up.
If the Giants draft a QB in the first round they need to rip the bandaid off and go through the growing pains. Get them on tree field and get experience.
If they draft one later that needs more work, there is a very good chance Eli will be back as the bridge QB. I dont see any point in bringing in a stop-gap vet. I could be wrong, but name one that will do better than Eli? I would like Eli to take a pay cut, however.
If the Giants find a vet that is a long-term answer, more power to them.
Yes, Eli on his own, and Eli and his brother have an obscene amount of money and playing under these miserable conditions, and risking, say, a blow to the head or a crushed leg is not worth it.
Taxman takes two thirds of his millions, anyway.
At some point in the not so distant future, we will once again have a stable veteran-laced O-line, good running game, WRs that have a strong catching radius, and a defense that can put immense pressure on the opposing team's stronger QB. And it will all come together so Eli can step up once again and play "lights out" in the playoffs in fashion that is heads above better than he typically shows during the regular season. And the Giants will ultimately win its 3rd Super Bowl with him at the helm.
Its almost laughable to think it won't happen...
Hey, im looking forward to it in 2156
He's healthy, he can still play and make all the throws, and now, that Shurmur has figured out how to make him productive, they can probably win some more games.
I know sorry but I am deviating from the BBI false narrative that they have no plan obviously since they drafted SB and not Darnold...
Especially with the QBs looming in this draft. If they didn't believe in Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Jackson, now they are going to believe in these guys? Doesn't make sense, this crop is worse.
I'd rather have Eli than a Bridgewater or a McCown.
Load up on the OL and ER and Eli's last year will be in 2019.
Even this past debacle, he did lead team to game tying FG, and it likely would have been a go ahead TD drive if one of two penalties on Beckham were called. I know if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle and all, bht Eli can still play and forcing a new QB for one year makes little sense.
If we are looking at 3-13 to 6-10 record with a stop gap QB there are many options cheaper than Eli..
Jonah WIlliams in the first!
Devin Bush in the 2nd!
Believe it and it will come true....haha
We will continue to improve the O-line in the off season. I am hoping for a veteran RT and a veteran Center in the free agency period. Another vet two-way TE would help as well, but as far as the draft I do believe that this year is going to be all about the Defense. The talent in the front seven dictates it, and our lack of talent demands it.
Eli will be much better in his second year of this offense IF Shurmur is retained. I don't think we want to tear it down again so soon, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I think it all depends where we pick. If we are somewhere between 6-10, I can see us looking at Jonah. If guys like Bosa, Ferrell, and Williams are gone before we pick.... A QB? Gary/Oliver? Cornerback Baker? I think there will be a lot of disucssion there.
Disagree on 3-4 ER. Josh Allen, Bosa, Ferrell and Polite are all first rounders.
The last month has given a reprieve, but this Sunday he'll be treated to reality against a fine Chicago defense.
The trajectory of team talent vs. the trajectory of Manning's decline doesn't align for the Giants.
There aren't enough draft picks or money to get this turned around in the time Manning has good football left in the tank.
It's looking like a 3 year re-build, and a bad team next year. I guess it's financially prudent to keep Manning and let he get beat like bag another year -- but that's nothing to celebrate.
Ok Ill play. Since were a 3-4 and the edge rushers arent there apparently, unless we take Bosa in the top 2, then the best bet I think might be the LSU CB or the Alabama FS. I know the prospect of taking a DB over an explosive edge rusher or stud OT coming off 3-13 or 4-12 is a bummer, but truth be told, this team needs talent everywhere; especially on defense.
DL is way to go with first rd.
They seriously need to think about extending eli after next season because there isnt likely another better replacing him in near future. They are getting any of those qbs talked about in 2020 likely (as not being in position to if wanted)
Knineteen : 11/28/2018 10:45 pm : link : reply
Eli will be back for 2019 and possibly beyond until this franchise finds it's next future QB.
Signing a transition QB wouldn't make any sense. They will patchwork where they can and hope Eli leads them to the the playoffs.
You expect him to be playing in his 40's?
You sure he undervalued DBs? I mean he gave up a third for Beal in the supplemental and refused to give up Collins unless he got a 2nd, if the KC rumors were correct at the deadline.
He won't be there. Every team realizes that we will be interested in QBs. We are the floor for any QB worthy of a top pick. Any team that wants a QB in this draft will be looking to trade up ahead of us.
Reese's Pieces : 2:31 am : link : reply
put an end to your inane debate.
Taxman takes two thirds of his millions, anyway.
Fed is 37%, state 9%, or 46% without deductions....a smart tax accountant/lawyer will reduce that more....
So we use Lauletta or a journeyman for a year......what is the difference between 3-13 and 6-10/7-9? It's still a losing season.....concentrate on building blocks, not Eli's swan song season....
Only way this team is a contender is if you fix the OL and DL, and you can't do both in one season....
How did DG's plan work? Let's put a rookie at LG....he has steadily been better, but had growing pains in the beginning of the year(think that won't happen with rookies next year?)....Let's trade Jones, and have a revolving door at center, where none of them have been better than Jones....Let's sign Omameh.....Meh? Let's move Flowers to RT.....Oh, yeah.....
So we need a C(Halapio coming back is a joke), RG, and RT? After this season, think DG can do it? And what about the defense? WE hire a 3-4 defensive coach, but don't have the players to play a 3-4 defense....Brilliant! Think that is going to be fixed in one season?
You are lucky to get 2 starters from a draft.....we got two...that's it.....Carter and Hill are out there because there is no one else.....and look at the position we were picking from, at the top of every round.....
And name one FA that DG has signed that is a building block on this team?
I have no confidence in DG's so-called plan....this team will not be a contender for next season, and hard decisions have to be made on Eli, OV and several others....ownership was sold a bill of goods that this team could have a quick turnaround.....How much better is it now than it was last year?....are the prospects for the future any better than last year? The OL still is not fixed, we have no future qb, and the defense has more holes than swiss cheese....
DG, Shurm, and Bettcher.....Man did we hit the trifecta or what?
Put it this way. Everyone knows we are rebuilding since we are undermanned in a lot of positions.
They look at this QB class and say meh.... not seeing a future QB. They look at the FA class are are like meh.... not much. They look at Lauletta and say.... meh.... doesnt have it.
You keep Eli. Your draft is built on the trenches and get another OL and an Edge rusher. Possibly a center later on.... thats a rebuild. 2020 draft comes and they have a chance to get a future QB. Now you have 3/5th of your OL who are young. Barkley. OBJ. Probably SS and EE....
Thats a good situation to bring in a rookie QB.
Scenario 2: Giants ditch Eli in 2019 picking a QB in the draft and or getting a 'mobile' veteran QB. Which mobile veteran QB will be available and do you think they would do that much better in a new system than Eli would with a year under his belt? The drafted QB; do you think they would be able to step in and take this team with the porous defense and average line to the playoffs? Remember you took a QB with your top pick so you either forgo an OL or a Edge rusher or a CB which will all be needs in the off season.
Scenario 3: Keep Eli around(hopefully you can restructure and give him 2 years with the knowledge that next will be his last, cap gurus help me out with this) and IF there is a QB you love or IF a QB a falls to you in round 2 take him. Focus on the lines, offensive and defensive. I think this year ESPECIALLY, you can see the difference good lines make, both offensively and defensively. If you give the 38 year old QB 3 or 4 seconds to pass he's more than capable of moving you down field and leading a productive offense(especially in the final to minutes!). If we had the edge rushers to help our tiring DB's I believe you'd have different outcomes in at least 4 or 5 of our games. Once you have a line in place or close to set you look for a QB. A decent line WITH a runner like SB will make even an average QB that much more productive.
The ghost of prime Eli -more like Dave Krieg- is not enough to get me to watch any more.
Hes not worth 5 million dollars? haha.
The ghost of prime Eli -more like Dave Krieg- is not enough to get me to watch any more.
True fan.
If we decide not to draft AND start a rook QB next year, give me Eli. Or, if they draft a QB and want Eli to mentor him for a year.
But it has to be a discounted price in the $8-10 million range. Both the organization and Eli have to realize where he is, what he's giving us, and that the team has needs that can be addressed with that money.
Otherwise, Eli will be making the choice.
His cap number doesn't justify a bridge QB or mentor QB for a team in rebuild. If we were SB contenders? Sure. But when you dig into it, it makes zero sense to overpay to that extent for a player that does absolutely nothing to bring you closer to a championship. You are better off signing a backup type QB to a 3-6m/yr deal, letting him compete with Lauletta and spending the difference on the best available OL free agent. We're talking about a difference of 10-15m to play with on a team with holes everywhere.
I've seen a lot of the keep Eli while we fix this or that until we can draft a franchise guy. Well...we only have so much cap room and so many draft picks. How are we plugging these holes? OL and Edge Rusher are the two most in demand positions. You have to pick that up from somewhere and Eli, being in the last year of his deal, is the biggest no brainer on the roster.
Is that a joke?! Good football by what metric?
The team is 3-8. They were 3-13 last year (and Eli was 3-12). Eli continues to mismanage the play clock like a rookie instead of a 15 year veteran (either by burning timeouts or taking delay of game penalties). Are you so blinded by your undying affection for Eli that you're incapable of recognizing that he's every bit part of the problem as about half a dozen (or more) other factors with this team?
The 2nd highest paid player in NFL history is very likely going to finish this season with a career W/L record below .500 and fewer than 20 passing TDs for the 2nd consecutive year, but let's trot him out there for another season at 38 years old and a cap number that is commensurate with a franchise QB while he continues to play at a journeyman game manager level.
If this report is in any way true, this franchise is even more misbegotten than they appeared to be already.
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Eli Manning over the last three weeks:
Completion percentage: 72.1 (62 of 86)
Passing yards: 716
Touchdowns: 6
Interceptions: 1
Passer rating: 115.2
And the Giants' offense has averaged 29 points in those three games.
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Odell Beckham averaged 12.8 yards per catch in the first eight weeks of the season. ... In the last three weeks, with better play from the O-line and Eli Manning, his average has jumped to 17.8 yards per catch.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
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a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
You do know a few things...
1. All pro under 30 OL probably wont leave their teams.
2. Other teams have more $$$$ than we do.
3. We stink
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In comment 14197063 dep026 said:
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a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
You do know a few things...
1. All pro under 30 OL probably wont leave their teams.
2. Other teams have more $$$$ than we do.
3. We stink
One stat matters this year: 3-8. One stat mattered last year: 3-13.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
One stat matters this year: 3-8. One stat mattered last year: 3-13.
I much rather have Clowney.... but you are just assuming teams wont offer him more money. And you sure aint shit giving Clowney 15-17 million a year either.
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If we cut Eli we will have enough. All Pro under 30 will sign with whoever guarantees them the most dollars. Would rather have Eli or Clowney next year?
I much rather have Clowney.... but you are just assuming teams wont offer him more money. And you sure aint shit giving Clowney 15-17 million a year either.
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That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
We don't have 2 options. We do not have to pay a 16 million dollar journeyman.
They're just not going to throw out some 4th round project pick (Lauletta) week one, nor are they going to throw out their 1st round draft pick (if it happens to be a QB).
They are going to need a veteran both to start the season, and to mentor the young QB.
It's going to be Eli, barring a retirement or injury.
It is what it is.
Kewan just signed a 5 year extension
Sheldon Richardson sucks balls
Frank Clark aint that good either
Ali Marpet is extended through 2023
Williams is coming off a major injury
So ummm.... none of these guys are remotely an option.
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In comment 14197081 Britt in VA said:
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That's what the Giants/Gettleman/Mara etc... are going to be looking at.
And they're going to determine that he can play. And whether they decide to draft a QB this upcoming draft or next draft (after 2019), it's just going to make sense to them to keep Eli if he wants to finish out his contract.
They're do it out of a. not being able to find anything better, b. they'll see that the improvement on the o-line improved the play of everybody else and focus there, and c. probably out of loyalty.
People keep harping on his salary. Well the QB salaries in the NFL are ever changing, and Eli's contract isn't even all that unusual/out of the ordinary.
You have two options: Journeyman QB at 15-20 million, or Eli on one year 20 million dollar deal.
It's a no brainer for them.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but that's what's going to happen. Just like last year.
We don't have 2 options. We do not have to pay a 16 million dollar journeyman.
They're just not going to throw out some 4th round project pick (Lauletta) week one, nor are they going to throw out their 1st round draft pick (if it happens to be a QB).
They are going to need a veteran both to start the season, and to mentor the young QB.
It's going to be Eli, barring a retirement or injury.
It is what it is.
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Trent Brown, Daryl Williams, Taylor Lewan, Ali Marpet, Sheldon Richardson, Frank CLark ect.
Kewan just signed a 5 year extension
Sheldon Richardson sucks balls
Frank Clark aint that good either
Ali Marpet is extended through 2023
Williams is coming off a major injury
So ummm.... none of these guys are remotely an option.
Lewan*
he's a 4-3 DE. Really bad fit here.
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a FA next year? And why would he want to sign here? LOL.
For money. I expect nearly all free agents to largely go to whoever pays them the most. Players that already got that big second contract are the ones that take less to go somewhere to win. It is always about the money.
Spot on. Because your next play can be your last and teams will basically toss you away like a tissue.
Money drives it mostly.............
Link - ( New Window )
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
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of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
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of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
QBFL
Not sure.
Which we're already enduring with OV.
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
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In comment 14197159 bigbluehoya said:
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of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/quarterback/ - ( New Window )
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season.
Link - ( New Window )
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
Exactly. It's just not going to happen.
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Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
The rebuild will figure to be slow until the next QB is in place.
What do you call our defense then?
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
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QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
You sure about that?
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In comment 14197200 Britt in VA said:
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Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
This is an important concept, and a key reason the Giants have been as poor as they have.
"Fixing the holes that can be fixed" is what the Giants have been trying to do. They diagnose a problem and then allocate resources to solve that problem. It's a reactive approach - see problem, fix problem.
A different approach is needed...one that is based on accomplishing stated goals and objectives - "I want our team to be X; here's what we have to do to achieve that." A proactive approach.
The Giants don't know what they are. Worse, they don't know what they want to be. When they win or lose, they don't know why they won or lost.
I can't stress this enough...this is at the heart of the problem. Until this problem is corrected, everything else is window dressing.
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QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
What do you call our defense then?
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
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In comment 14197162 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14197159 bigbluehoya said:
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of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
He's not a franchise QB anymore, he's not capable of playing at that level. He can't make plays on his own when the play (line) breaks down. Better to cut too early than too late
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
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How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
Clowney isn't an elite player.
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
The truth is, the scenario I've laid out is much more likely to happen than any of the others.
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
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In comment 14197260 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
Quote:
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
Haha - "Exactly" as if that's at all what you meant at any point on this thread.
And I've said that multiple times over multiple threads, so.... exactly.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
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In comment 14197182 Go Terps said:
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How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M per. Clowney isn't an elite player.
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In comment 14197252 Tesla said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
I think when we're getting down to talking +/- 7 million dollars either way, the Giants will just keep Eli.
7 million dollars is negligible as far as salary cap goes.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Not sure.
It's pretty reasonable for fans to be upset and voice it when the management and ownership repeat mistakes. As customers, expressing sentiment and not supporting the team financially are the tools to impact decisions.
The Giants like all major organizations take customer sentiment into account on some level.
Hell, the owner regularly talks about reading fan mail.
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They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
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In comment 14197295 AcesUp said:
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They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
Well, by all means, please educate me on what your proposal is. I've linked his current contract so we are following the same details.
Eli's Contract - ( New Window )
Also what people want may not always be the right thing, even though they don't know it at the time.
People wanted Coughlin fired after 2006. A very loud and large contingent on BBI wrote letters to John Mara asking for him to be fired. They stayed the course.
That's not to say this is a comparable situation, but we are fans. We have little to no bearing on the machinations of the organization. The guys that run the show have gotten a long way, and made a lot of money, by following their gut and not bowing to fan expectations.
7m for a QB is actually conservative, the Bucs signed Fitzpatrick for 3.3m last year. I'd be shopping in that aisle for a 14m net savings with the hopes that Lauletta is the guy.
A more reasonable comp is Fitz or Matt Schaubb at 3-4.5 mil
They're going to:
a. draft his replacement and let him mentor and learn from Eli
b. let him play out his contract and draft his replacement and sign a journeyman at that point (ala Eli and Warner in 2004)
c. GASP extend Eli another year and extend plan b. into 2020.
These are the only logical outcomes with all the information on the table.
Anything else is long odds.
Trade for a vet QB after cutting Eli like D. Carr (not likely, but certainly an option)
+1
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
Eli is not taking a paycut and has said he is not interested in a mentor role
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...is that you can get one very good player, or two additions to your roster that can really help the team. This team needs bodies who can play.
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
Eli is not taking a paycut and has said he is not interested in a mentor role
Well by mentor I mean I mean be the starting QB and help the kid. Which he's doing this year with Lauletta I'm sure.
As far as a paycut.....then essentially Eli will cut himself IMO.
The rebuild will figure to be slow until the next QB is in place.
I agree. I also don't think it matters who is QB next season because we are at least another year or two away.
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In comment 14197265 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14197252 Tesla said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
I would think that would be a fair compromise. Given the number of times anyone named Manning has given back a penny though, I'd peg the chances of it at ~0%.
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In comment 14197277 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197265 Diver_Down said:
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In comment 14197252 Tesla said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
I would think that would be a fair compromise. Given the number of times anyone named Manning has given back a penny though, I'd peg the chances of it at ~0%.
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Have there been other teams who've forced out a guy like Eli Manning, 15 year starter franchise type? Dead serious question. I'm trying to remember the last one that was outright cut.
Phil Simms, Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts and Dan Marino come to mind.
Obviously this requires a somewhat specific set of circumstances - first of all, you're dealing with a very small pool of players when you start by limiting it to "15 year starter franchise type" QBs. There's not a ton of those guys to begin with. And it's narrowed further by only really considering QBs in the salary cap era, where the decision impacts overall roster construction rather than just the binary choice of whether to keep the player or not, based solely of the quality of his play, not a valuation of his play relative to his cap number.
Then within that group, you're further limiting it to players who have time remaining on their contract and believe they can still play at a high level (and want to continue to do so, or try to), while their team may feel otherwise - many players might have been in this scenario but saw the writing on the wall themselves and chose to retire, thereby taking the difficult decision away from the organization.
So the simple answer is, yes, there have been other teams who have faced this type of situation before, but it's not necessarily that common. But the frequency of the situation presenting itself doesn't really have anything to do with how a team should approach their options. I'm not saying that it doesn't have an impact, just that it really shouldn't.
Like I said on this thread, it doesn't matter what I want, think, or anybody else for that matter.
On this thread, I'm strictly talking about what I think is going to happen, right, wrong, or indifferent.
And in many instances, I see Peyton Manning brought up for instance, that was an injury forced cut. They didn't know whether he would ever throw a football again and they were staring at Luck with the number one pick. Favre retired. I disagree that it was forced. I think he changed his mind and they had moved on. Aikman had a million concussions.
Like most things Eli, his career is unconventional, and the end is no different. He's a healthy player that has had no major injuries, and it's not injury driven. He can also still play a bit. It's a fairly unique situation and there aren't a lot of comps.
And in many instances, I see Peyton Manning brought up for instance, that was an injury forced cut. They didn't know whether he would ever throw a football again and they were staring at Luck with the number one pick. Favre retired. I disagree that it was forced. I think he changed his mind and they had moved on. Aikman had a million concussions.
Like most things Eli, his career is unconventional, and the end is no different. He's a healthy player that has had no major injuries, and it's not injury driven. He can also still play a bit. It's a fairly unique situation and there aren't a lot of comps.
Exactly -- there isn't precedent for a healthy, declining, 15-year vet, on a talent depleted team.
I agree the Giants will retain Manning -- it's very in character for the team. It's the least controversial move, and it's plainly obvious Manning can still operate adequately when not facing a lot of pressure.
The sad part is the unless the Giants drastically improve 3/5 o-line positions and figure out what to do at TE or don't play any teams with a functional defense, Manning is going to get his ass kicked all over the field for another 21 games, and retire with a losing record.
Just wasting time & seasons as there will be no playoff-caliber team until the guy under center is changed out...
Or do you get the QB first?
Thats the question we leave to Mara and Gettleman. This scares me.
Getting all the other pieces first adds way too many variables into the equation of building a winner...
I would just make him an offer he can't refuse.
Vito Corleone
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
That's just it you don't save 20 million. There is the dead money. The question is, are we saving enough between what you pay the journeyman plus the dead cap money.
The only thing they have going for next year is that the division stinks.
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Whether we draft a QB in round 1 or not - makes no sense to waste cap money on an old game manager QB when the team is clearly, at best, 2-3 years away from being talented.
Save that cap money and spend it to improve our young core.
That's just it you don't save 20 million. There is the dead money. The question is, are we saving enough between what you pay the journeyman plus the dead cap money.
Pay the journeyman nothing for all I care. Go with Lauletta if it means saving money in a wasted year (which next year will be). Reallocate that money toward a building block in free agency.
The only thing they have going for next year is that the division stinks.
You might think, but if you look as if the season ended today two of the division teams would be in the playoffs and one right there close to being in...only one that stinks in division is the ny giants
It sounds great, but none of the young QBs ever progressed here. Not necessarily Eli's fault but lends credence to the "I don't want to be a mentor" stuff. Eli's about Eli. Always has been. And that's not a bad thing. But he's not exactly a player development whiz according to his track record.
Sometimes, it can be that simple
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more about bridging to the successor than it is to win games, not unlike 2018.
The rebuild will figure to be slow until the next QB is in place.
I agree. I also don't think it matters who is QB next season because we are at least another year or two away.
Yup. I get fans being tired of losing and desperately not wanting to suck next year, but it's the most likely outcome, imv.
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In comment 14197233 JonC said:
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more about bridging to the successor than it is to win games, not unlike 2018.
The rebuild will figure to be slow until the next QB is in place.
I agree. I also don't think it matters who is QB next season because we are at least another year or two away.
Yup. I get fans being tired of losing and desperately not wanting to suck next year, but it's the most likely outcome, imv.
As an example, Saquon was watching film for over an hour and Eli had popped in and sat down with him. Eli right away pointed out details that Saquon had missed. Saquon had said that Eli's experience was invaluable. Eli in those moments is teaching Saquon on how to prepare for an opponent that transcends what Saquon had known.
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
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Um, no QB?
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
Honest question...Are you high all the time? We have no QB, are 6-21 since the start of last season, they were in first place until A Smith broke his leg. They are much better on the OL/DL than we are. 8 million in dead money vs 43 Million in dead money in 2018. In 2019, 600k dead money vs 9 million dead money and that doesn't count if we cut Eli or Vernon. Redskins are in a way better spot than NY.
You're asking me questions a day after you said the Giants should sign an all-pro under 30 and listed 6 names who arent good or even available.
Alex Smith isnt a good QB despite breaking his leg. Every team he leaves gets better once he is gone.
Peterson is old
Williams is old
Records of the past mean shit when talking about the future. They dont have a barkley or Beckham on offense. They have some nice pieces sure.... but they have massive injuries that are building up on the OL. And jsut because they are in first in a shitty division, doesnt make them contenders anytime soon.
I have been very unimpressed with them this year even with Smith.
The flip side of that is the rookie gets shut out of practice and game snaps with Eli as opposed to some journeyman QB.
Its a lot easier to bench or split practice snaps with Fitzmagic than it is with Eli
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it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
The flip side of that is the rookie gets shut out of practice and game snaps with Eli as opposed to some journeyman QB.
Its a lot easier to bench or split practice snaps with Fitzmagic than it is with Eli
Didn't hurt Aaron Rodgers or Phillip Rivers, who did it for years.
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In comment 14198398 dep026 said:
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Um, no QB?
34 year old RB.
WRs that are awful.
Two aging TEs
Trent WIlliams gets hurt walking down the street.
Other OL constantly dinged up.
Yeah.... their future is rather bright...
Honest question...Are you high all the time? We have no QB, are 6-21 since the start of last season, they were in first place until A Smith broke his leg. They are much better on the OL/DL than we are. 8 million in dead money vs 43 Million in dead money in 2018. In 2019, 600k dead money vs 9 million dead money and that doesn't count if we cut Eli or Vernon. Redskins are in a way better spot than NY.
You're asking me questions a day after you said the Giants should sign an all-pro under 30 and listed 6 names who arent good or even available.
Alex Smith isnt a good QB despite breaking his leg. Every team he leaves gets better once he is gone.
Peterson is old
Williams is old
Records of the past mean shit when talking about the future. They dont have a barkley or Beckham on offense. They have some nice pieces sure.... but they have massive injuries that are building up on the OL. And jsut because they are in first in a shitty division, doesnt make them contenders anytime soon.
I have been very unimpressed with them this year even with Smith.
Sort of disagree. In Eli's prime he threw some of the best deep balls in the league (see throw to Manningham in SB XLVI down the sideline). He was never mobile but had enough pocket sense in his prime to evade pressure (like Dan Marino who was also immobile). Now it's pretty clear that the Giants and Eli need to move on and mutually agree on a way to do so. This is what I'd do:
Eli plays until the Giants are mathematically eliminated (probably next week)
Prior to Week 15, a mutual announcement is made: Eli is retiring or will not return to the Giants next year. The Giants announce Lauletta as the starter in Weeks 15 and 16 to see what they have to determine whether he could be a long-term solution, a stop gap or not a solution.
Week 17 becomes "Eli Manning Day" and the organization dedicates the entire week to his Hall of Fame career and accomplishments. We're playing Dallas in Week 17, which is kind of apropos: Eli won his first career game against Dallas in Week 17, 2004, and could win his last game as a Giant against Dallas in Week 17 this year
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it's about watching a consummate pro work. Being in the room when they film study. Watch how they practice, watch how they train, watch how they deal with the media....
As an example, Saquon was watching film for over an hour and Eli had popped in and sat down with him. Eli right away pointed out details that Saquon had missed. Saquon had said that Eli's experience was invaluable. Eli in those moments is teaching Saquon on how to prepare for an opponent that transcends what Saquon had known.
I thought that's what Jonathan Stewart was being paid to do?