QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
I am suggesting that Lauletta is the plan as well. You are simply looking to hedge against the risk of an uknown and raise the floor of the position by going the McCown route. You're not replacing Eli with him. Nothing against Eli but his number doesn't justify that type of role on the team, it's overkill.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
You sure about that?
RE: RE: RE: And they free up what? 10 million by doing so? Â
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
No one really believes he would get traded, he has no value to any team at his salary. Cutting him is a very real possibility and I pray for it. I think it is close to 50/50 because of the recent ineptitude of our ownership and GM.
This is an important concept, and a key reason the Giants have been as poor as they have.
"Fixing the holes that can be fixed" is what the Giants have been trying to do. They diagnose a problem and then allocate resources to solve that problem. It's a reactive approach - see problem, fix problem.
A different approach is needed...one that is based on accomplishing stated goals and objectives - "I want our team to be X; here's what we have to do to achieve that." A proactive approach.
The Giants don't know what they are. Worse, they don't know what they want to be. When they win or lose, they don't know why they won or lost.
I can't stress this enough...this is at the heart of the problem. Until this problem is corrected, everything else is window dressing.
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
RE: RE: RE: RE: we should start generating rationalizations Â
of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
He's not a franchise QB anymore, he's not capable of playing at that level. He can't make plays on his own when the play (line) breaks down. Better to cut too early than too late
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
A large pay cut would work for me. Eli at 10 million is another ball game.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And you can tell me I'm trying to rationalize it all you want.... Â
at this point, I don't really care who the QB is next year, and that's the truth. Would I like to see Eli get a shot to win again, sure, but if it's a new QB I'm ready to see the future too.
The truth is, the scenario I've laid out is much more likely to happen than any of the others.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
Haha - "Exactly" as if that's at all what you meant at any point on this thread.
Uh, that's exactly what I wrote that he was responding to.... Â
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M per. Clowney isn't an elite player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
the sooner that people accept it, the less miserable they will be and focus on other things perhaps?
Not sure.
It's pretty reasonable for fans to be upset and voice it when the management and ownership repeat mistakes. As customers, expressing sentiment and not supporting the team financially are the tools to impact decisions.
The Giants like all major organizations take customer sentiment into account on some level.
Hell, the owner regularly talks about reading fan mail.
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
RE: RE: RE: If the Giants and Eli were motivated Â
They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
Well, by all means, please educate me on what your proposal is. I've linked his current contract so we are following the same details. Eli's Contract - ( New Window )
It's reasonable for people to feel however they want. Â
But what they want and what will happen are often very different.
Also what people want may not always be the right thing, even though they don't know it at the time.
People wanted Coughlin fired after 2006. A very loud and large contingent on BBI wrote letters to John Mara asking for him to be fired. They stayed the course.
That's not to say this is a comparable situation, but we are fans. We have little to no bearing on the machinations of the organization. The guys that run the show have gotten a long way, and made a lot of money, by following their gut and not bowing to fan expectations.
Cut Eli for a 17m net savings. Sign a 2nd tier FA QB at ~7m hit = 10m in cap room.
7m for a QB is actually conservative, the Bucs signed Fitzpatrick for 3.3m last year. I'd be shopping in that aisle for a 14m net savings with the hopes that Lauletta is the guy.
Josh McCown is one of the most expensive back up in the league Â
Only because it's the Giants and not because it's the wrong decision. This would be out of character. They probably need to start stepping out of character a little though.
Have there been other teams who've forced out a guy like Eli Manning, 15 year starter franchise type? Dead serious question. I'm trying to remember the last one that was outright cut.
Happened to Peyton, Favre and Montana. 3 of the greatest ever and management parted ways. Obviously there were some greats waiting to play behind them, so not completely apples to apples with Eli. However, to be fair, not many franchises have completely cratered under the watch of a franchise QB like the Giants have. There's not a large precedent of franchise QBs with one playoff appearance, a losing record over a 7 season stretch and back back lottery picks.
The rebuild will figure to be slow until the next QB is in place.
What do you call our defense then?
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
Quote:
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
I don't get it either re: your last sentence. A select few think I (and others) hate Eli, which is a joke. I've owned 4 jerseys of his over his career, an expensive autographed authentic Giants helmet and 16x20 autographed photo of him evading the Pats DL on the Tyree play sit in my office. But why would any Eli fan want to see his career W/L record very possibly sink to below .500 next season? That's going to be depressing for ALL Giants fans.
You sure about that?
Quote:
In comment 14197200 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Dropping from Eli Manning to Josh McCown just to free up 10 million or so dollars is not a good return on that money.
The salary cap is so flexible and fluid, they could free up that money anywhere if they needed it.
People act like Manning's contract is some boat anchor, but the truth is, it's not keeping them from doing anything really. I think people bring up his contract as a reason just because they're looking for any and every reason to dump the guy.
I don't get the fixation on his contract. He's making average, yes average, Quarterback money next year. He'll be the 13th highest paid QB next season. Link - ( New Window )
Britt you make some really good points.
It's the reality of the situation. It's easy to see if you don't let emotions of what you want to happen get in the way. People accuse me of posting emotionally about it, but really, I think it's those that think he's going to get cut outright or traded that are posting emotionally, because honestly, those aren't very realistic scenarios given the logistics.
This is an important concept, and a key reason the Giants have been as poor as they have.
"Fixing the holes that can be fixed" is what the Giants have been trying to do. They diagnose a problem and then allocate resources to solve that problem. It's a reactive approach - see problem, fix problem.
A different approach is needed...one that is based on accomplishing stated goals and objectives - "I want our team to be X; here's what we have to do to achieve that." A proactive approach.
The Giants don't know what they are. Worse, they don't know what they want to be. When they win or lose, they don't know why they won or lost.
I can't stress this enough...this is at the heart of the problem. Until this problem is corrected, everything else is window dressing.
Quote:
QB hell starts once you have an old, beloved, declining and overpaid QB on your roster. I think people are correct in their suggestion Eli might start next year, there is zero reason to believe at this point the results will be any different from the last 2 seasons. Why that is palatable to any fan of the NY Giants is crazy to me.
What do you call our defense then?
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Quote:
In comment 14197162 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14197159 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
of why it would be a good idea to actually EXTEND Eli beyond next season.
There's an at least average chance that's going to happen.
I shouldn't have doubted that you already have that path rationalized.
Everyone can get in line behind me. I have advocated that DG will look at the analytics that he is derided about eschewing and determine that Eli can still play. You don't replace franchise players because they are old. You replace them when they are no longer capable.
He's not a franchise QB anymore, he's not capable of playing at that level. He can't make plays on his own when the play (line) breaks down. Better to cut too early than too late
Quote:
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Quote:
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
Quote:
How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M player.
Not sure Terps. I would rather have the elite player. Most of these 4 million dollar players are shit. You have to hit either way. I like impact players at key positions the other team has to commit extra resources against or game plan against. Missing on the impact player is very bad. I agree there.
Clowney isn't an elite player.
Quote:
In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
Quote:
10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
The truth is, the scenario I've laid out is much more likely to happen than any of the others.
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
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In comment 14197260 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
Exactly.
Haha - "Exactly" as if that's at all what you meant at any point on this thread.
And I've said that multiple times over multiple threads, so.... exactly.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
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In comment 14197182 Go Terps said:
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How many times are we going to make the same mistake?
If an elite player like Mack becomes available, I'm fine going after him. Otherwise, it's better to have 4 $4M players than 1 $16M per. Clowney isn't an elite player.
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In comment 14197252 Tesla said:
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
What I don't get is why we can't demand that Eli take a pay cut. What choice would have have? Is another team going to pay him $17M to play next season? Plus he's been very clear he has no desire to pay anywhere else. I doubt he wants to retire either.
Tell him he can come back next year for $10M or he can move one as he sees fit.
Just so we are clear, you are going to ask Eli to take a $1.5M paycut?
And waive his roster bonus. Then sure, he can stick around in the mediocre journeyman role that his productivity merits.
As long as you agree that the roster bonus is a contractual clause to force the Giants to decide at the beginning of the league year. Any adjustment to the contract should be fair to both parties. If Eli agrees to a flat $10M salary with no roster bonus, then the team should be expected to guarantee that salary on the first day of the league year. The Giants shouldn't be afforded the luxury of squatting on Eli's rights without financial repercussions. If the terms outlined above are agreed to, then Eli's cap hit will drop from $23M to $16M.
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In comment 14197246 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14197208 AcesUp said:
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10M buys you a Matt Paradis, I'd take McCown and stud center over Eli next year. I'm not expecting us to hoist the Lombardi next year, any percieved downgrade is negligible. Focus on fixing the holes that can be fixed.
Who's to say there's even a downgrade? McCown's numbers were better than Eli's last season, and it's not like you can simply blame Eli's decimated skill position supporting cast, bad OL, or unimaginative offensive scheme, because the Jets had all of the above as well.
This idea that a journeyman placeholder QB is going to cost $15-20MM is, quite simply, false. The only reason anyone would attempt to advance it is to try to justify Eli's cap number while he continues to produce like a journeyman placeholder while taking up a franchise QB's cap space.
Including Eli's dead cap money? Yes, that's what it will cost.
People seem to overlook the signing bonus. The dead cap hit doesn't go away if Eli does. If Josh is making $10M and you add Eli's dead cap hit of $6.2M, then the cost to fill QB1 position is $16.2M.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
I think when we're getting down to talking +/- 7 million dollars either way, the Giants will just keep Eli.
7 million dollars is negligible as far as salary cap goes.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Not sure.
It's pretty reasonable for fans to be upset and voice it when the management and ownership repeat mistakes. As customers, expressing sentiment and not supporting the team financially are the tools to impact decisions.
The Giants like all major organizations take customer sentiment into account on some level.
Hell, the owner regularly talks about reading fan mail.
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They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
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In comment 14197295 AcesUp said:
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They can get his cap obligation down to 10m. No use diving into it, the logistics are possible it's getting a franchise legend to agree to a massive cut is more unlikely.
In terms of "overlooking" the dead cap hit. I know I haven't and I don't think others have either. I have suggested that you can cut Eli and sign a 2nd tier FA QB for a net savings of around 10m+. Dead money is merely a detail or a footnote in the actual discussion which is net savings.
It is hard to take proposals such as yours serious. If the ultimate salary cap ceiling is $10M, then you are essentially expecting Eli to work for $3.8M or less as the dead cap of $6.2M doesn't go away. It isn't a serious expectation and it is hard to give any credibility to a post or poster suggesting such.
Yeh...I don't think you follow.
Well, by all means, please educate me on what your proposal is. I've linked his current contract so we are following the same details.
Eli's Contract - ( New Window )
Also what people want may not always be the right thing, even though they don't know it at the time.
People wanted Coughlin fired after 2006. A very loud and large contingent on BBI wrote letters to John Mara asking for him to be fired. They stayed the course.
That's not to say this is a comparable situation, but we are fans. We have little to no bearing on the machinations of the organization. The guys that run the show have gotten a long way, and made a lot of money, by following their gut and not bowing to fan expectations.
7m for a QB is actually conservative, the Bucs signed Fitzpatrick for 3.3m last year. I'd be shopping in that aisle for a 14m net savings with the hopes that Lauletta is the guy.
A more reasonable comp is Fitz or Matt Schaubb at 3-4.5 mil
They're going to:
a. draft his replacement and let him mentor and learn from Eli
b. let him play out his contract and draft his replacement and sign a journeyman at that point (ala Eli and Warner in 2004)
c. GASP extend Eli another year and extend plan b. into 2020.
These are the only logical outcomes with all the information on the table.
Anything else is long odds.
Trade for a vet QB after cutting Eli like D. Carr (not likely, but certainly an option)
+1
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
Eli is not taking a paycut and has said he is not interested in a mentor role
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...is that you can get one very good player, or two additions to your roster that can really help the team. This team needs bodies who can play.
And that pickup, depending on who it is, can be significant.
That's the only reason I think Manning taking some sort of pay cut is in the Giants best interest.
Take the cut, come back and mentor (hopefully), and finish out your career with NYG........
Eli is not taking a paycut and has said he is not interested in a mentor role
Well by mentor I mean I mean be the starting QB and help the kid. Which he's doing this year with Lauletta I'm sure.
As far as a paycut.....then essentially Eli will cut himself IMO.