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Toomer comments on Eli’s pick?

Fort Mill Mike : 12/2/2018 7:08 pm
Listening to the postgame on WFAN, a caller said something about Eli’s pic and Bob Pappa, kind of agitated, said it wasn’t Eli’s fault, that Toomer broke it down earlier in the broadcast and referred the caller to go back and listen. I can’t find that stream archived anywhere. Can someone who heard it summarize or post a link?
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After watching Pete’s video....  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
Your fucking nuts if you fault Beckham there,
RE: That CB jumped the route  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14202988 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
TWICE.

He jumped. Backed off. Jumped again.

Beckham was the problem? No. The CB( who currently leads the NFL I INTS) beat him there and made the play.

Beckham saw him jump. He was trying to adjust. Ball was already on the way.

Come on that's ridiculous. I'm still trying to figure out the whole "Looking off the safety aspect you mentioned when there's no safety anywhere around
RE: Montana  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 9:50 pm : link
In comment 14203000 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He stopped because the DB was in his path. He adjusted. Ball was already on the way.

It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.

Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.


There's nothing to look off here. Fuller is in man looking to jump an inside route the whole time.
RE: Montana  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14203000 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He stopped because the DB was in his path. He adjusted. Ball was already on the way.

It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.

Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.

The DB yes, but not the safety.

Kwall you know that a timing route is a bang-bang play, looking at that replay do you honestly believe OBJ thought that was a timing route to him? IF so he has lost a helluva lot of speed because that route was run at 3/4 speed OBJ normally plays at
RE: After watching Pete’s video....  
PetesHereNow : 12/2/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14203001 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Your fucking nuts if you fault Beckham there,


Why? Really?

I've watched it at least 10 times now. He is jogging. It is an awful break.

Still love the guy, but on that particular play, he takes the goat horns at about 60 percent in my mind. Eli gets 40 percent of the blame because the flat is open for Shepherd for a few yards and maybe more.
It was a lazy route on a ball that should have never been thrown.  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 9:54 pm : link
This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.
RE: It was a lazy route on a ball that should have never been thrown.  
PetesHereNow : 12/2/2018 9:55 pm : link
In comment 14203017 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.


Are you new to BBI? We can re-visit the old Eli/Sean Taylor/Robert Gallery debate, lol.
RE: RE: Montana  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 9:56 pm : link
In comment 14203007 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14203000 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


He stopped because the DB was in his path. He adjusted. Ball was already on the way.

It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.

Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.



There's nothing to look off here. Fuller is in man looking to jump an inside route the whole time.

And your usually not looking someone off on a timing route, you take your 3 steps and fire the ball to a spot because you got the best WR in the game that your throwing to.

Once again I think it's as simple as a miscommunication that resulted in OBJ thinking it's a running play. He's human and shit happens. We still won and that's the whole point
RE: It was a lazy route on a ball that should have never been thrown.  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 9:57 pm : link
In comment 14203017 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.

LMAO...it's gotten to be like politics at this point. Especially since we took Barkley and not a QB
RE: It was a lazy route on a ball that should have never been thrown.  
ajr2456 : 12/2/2018 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14203017 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.


I mean there were posters who truly believed the pick before the half against philly was because Odell wants the ball more..
RE: RE: It was a lazy route on a ball that should have never been thrown.  
PetesHereNow : 12/2/2018 10:04 pm : link
In comment 14203028 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14203017 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.



I mean there were posters who truly believed the pick before the half against philly was because Odell wants the ball more..


I freely blame Eli for the pick before the half last week. He forced it to OBJ, surely. I think he never saw Jenkins and he thought he had 1 on 1 with OBJ in the end zone vs. the safety that almost ripped OBJ's helmet off.
Here it is  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 10:08 pm : link
On the snap, you stare down Beckham and the CB jumps it.

Or...

On the snap, you look another direction and the CB does not jump it.
Montana  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 10:11 pm : link
“Not looking off on a timing route” is not true.

Of course you do.

All day long this happens in a football game including pop warner.
RE: Montana  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 10:38 pm : link
In comment 14203047 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
“Not looking off on a timing route” is not true.

Of course you do.

All day long this happens in a football game including pop warner.


You look off routes to get the safeties playing zone to move not the corners in man.
RE: Here it is  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 10:40 pm : link
In comment 14203041 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
On the snap, you stare down Beckham and the CB jumps it.

Or...

On the snap, you look another direction and the CB does not jump it.


It wouldn't matter if Eli was looking to the other side of the field and came back the corner there is jumping the route. He wasn't in zone. Looking off guys is for zone coverage to get them to flow where your eyes are.
Here you can see the spot  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 10:47 pm : link
Eli throwing to that red spot. The DB was all over it before Beckham made any inside move. He had no shot to get there.



Right off the snap the DB is on Eli. He doesn’t even look at Beckham.

To the guy above saying the QB only moves the S? That is BS. You do not look off only S. They aren’t the only players the QB impacts before the throw.

Would it have made a difference here? I don’t know. But that CB peaked early. Saw the QB looking his way and jumped it.
To be clear  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 10:50 pm : link
My main beef here is the ripping of Beckham. I don’t think there was anything he could do. The DB was all over it early.

Eli? Maybe he tipped it off early. I think that’s what the DB saw and jumped.
This is thread hard on the eyes...  
dep026 : 12/2/2018 10:52 pm : link
This is simple.

Eli made a poor decision. He shouldn’t have thrown it. OBJ ran a lazy route for whatever reason and no knows what would happen if he ran full speed but there’s a great chance it would have been a negative play so Ei shouldn’t have thrown it.
Kwall my friend  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 10:53 pm : link
You can't watch that and tell me Odell ran a good route. You can't even say he ran an average one, that was horrible route running IF he actually thought a pass play was called. I don't think he did, I think he thought it was a run thus why he seems to be chasing Fuller prior to the INT
RE: To be clear  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 10:54 pm : link
In comment 14203080 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
My main beef here is the ripping of Beckham. I don’t think there was anything he could do. The DB was all over it early.

Eli? Maybe he tipped it off early. I think that’s what the DB saw and jumped.


What tipped it off was the formation and the routes that came out of it. Fuller knew that was going to be an inside route. People are ragging on Odell because he was dogging the route a bit.
RE: Kwall my friend  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 10:55 pm : link
In comment 14203084 montanagiant said:
Quote:
You can't watch that and tell me Odell ran a good route. You can't even say he ran an average one, that was horrible route running IF he actually thought a pass play was called. I don't think he did, I think he thought it was a run thus why he seems to be chasing Fuller prior to the INT


I've noticed Odell does this quite a bit actually. Now I don't know if it is to set up his breaks, but in my uninformed opinion it does look like he's dogging it.
The whole play he's following Fuller  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 10:58 pm : link
OBJ thinks it's a run. Watch that replay he runs at 3/4 speed at Fuller, Fuller takes a step to the right then steps up and OBJ actually trails him as if to block. Then he sees Fuller has the ball and makes a nice play to limit any YAC
By the way this Pitt/SD game is great  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 10:59 pm : link
Sd was getting their ass kicked and just took the lead 30-23 w/ 8:30 left
Dogged what?  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 11:00 pm : link
Off the snap? I didn’t see it.

On the cut? Didn’t see it because the DB was already there before he cut.
There is no way he thinks the play is a run.  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 11:02 pm : link
I'm not sure why you've written that narrative for this play. Fuller keeps shading inside and Odell is still running vertical not mirroring him.
The formation and routes?  
KWALL2 : 12/2/2018 11:03 pm : link
Why? Any DB there would defend the deep ball.

Did Beckham tip him off presnap? Maybe.

But on the close up you see, on the snap, DB is on Eli, and jumps it. He isn’t even looking at Beckham.
RE: Dogged what?  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 11:04 pm : link
In comment 14203098 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Off the snap? I didn’t see it.

On the cut? Didn’t see it because the DB was already there before he cut.


If you don't see it I'll take your word for it, but everyone else seems to including the former players. Like I said before this is something I've noticed with Odell and it may be how he sets up his routes. Similar to a hesitation move in basketball so he can blow buy his guy and take it to the house with the yac. I can't say because I'm not privy to what goes in in the meetings.
RE: There is no way he thinks the play is a run.  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 11:05 pm : link
In comment 14203100 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
I'm not sure why you've written that narrative for this play. Fuller keeps shading inside and Odell is still running vertical not mirroring him.

So you're saying that OBJ knew this was a timing route and he decided to half ass the route?

I don't buy that for instance. Not when he knows he's getting the ball
We're going to go round and round over this  
montanagiant : 12/2/2018 11:07 pm : link
But every single media head tasked with covering the game such as Banks, Toomer (who by the way has been critical of Eli in the past) etc... says that Int lays at the feet of OBJ so I'm going to leave it there
RE: The formation and routes?  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 11:09 pm : link
In comment 14203101 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Why? Any DB there would defend the deep ball.

Did Beckham tip him off presnap? Maybe.

But on the close up you see, on the snap, DB is on Eli, and jumps it. He isn’t even looking at Beckham.


Yes out of the formation Shephard runs directly to the flat. Something in film showed that the route tendency for Odell as soon as he see that is an in route. His eyes are on Eli because he's trying to time his break when Eli starts to throw the ball. Even if he "looked off" Eli needs to come back playside set and throw and he would have just broke it than. Once again looking off is for zone coverage to get the defensive backs to move them to where you want to go not for man coverage.
RE: RE: There is no way he thinks the play is a run.  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 11:10 pm : link
In comment 14203103 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14203100 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


I'm not sure why you've written that narrative for this play. Fuller keeps shading inside and Odell is still running vertical not mirroring him.


So you're saying that OBJ knew this was a timing route and he decided to half ass the route?

I don't buy that for instance. Not when he knows he's getting the ball


He does that on his routes sometimes. We don't even know if its "half assing." It may be similar to a hesitation move in basketball where you use varying speeds to blow by defenders. Can't really know that unless your inside the meeting rooms.
RE: We're going to go round and round over this  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/2/2018 11:12 pm : link
In comment 14203107 montanagiant said:
Quote:
But every single media head tasked with covering the game such as Banks, Toomer (who by the way has been critical of Eli in the past) etc... says that Int lays at the feet of OBJ so I'm going to leave it there


Well because in all likelihood he committed the cardinal sin of not giving full effort where as Eli just made a poor decision. I agree with them there that if that the case it is totally unacceptable.
Sometimes NFL players make mistakes.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2018 11:14 pm : link
Nate Solder missed on a run block because, at least from the TV replay, he either made a mental error or didn't hear a change called at the line of scrimmage.
I didn't hear Toomer and I kind of take his comments all the time  
Matt M. : 12/3/2018 1:42 am : link
with a grain of salt. He tends to say things a little out there to be controversial.

But, I was listening on the radio for that play. Banks immediately said the throw was late, but the route looked off. He watched the replay and said the INT was 100% on OBJ because his route was sloppy, lazy, and late. Banks was absolutely certain on this.
Fuller read that route like...  
bw in dc : 12/3/2018 2:05 am : link
he was reading his newspaper clippings in high school. And KWALL captures it beautifully with his freeze frame. Eli made a decision that he was going to OBJ regardless. That’s blatantly obvious. Just a poor read.

Eli’s football tombstone at BBI will read this was for Eli’s Army:

“353 TDs and 235 INTs that weren’t his fault.”

The lengths they go to protect Eli really is extraordinary.

RE: Fuller read that route like...  
Matt M. : 12/3/2018 3:33 am : link
In comment 14203201 bw in dc said:
Quote:
he was reading his newspaper clippings in high school. And KWALL captures it beautifully with his freeze frame. Eli made a decision that he was going to OBJ regardless. That’s blatantly obvious. Just a poor read.

Eli’s football tombstone at BBI will read this was for Eli’s Army:

“353 TDs and 235 INTs that weren’t his fault.”

The lengths they go to protect Eli really is extraordinary.
I know I'm not trying to protect him, but the lengths others go to bury him are equally as great. He is like the Patrick Ewing of the Giants...except he actually has 2 titles. But, he will be much more appreciated after he is gone.
that interception was on OBJ for running a sloppy route?  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/3/2018 7:41 am : link
geez patootie -- that's crazy

I'm sure Eli wishes he had that ball back - Fuller was breaking on it as he threw it -- there's no way Beckham was beating him to that ball -- Eli was anticipating something that wasn't and it was an ill advised throw - there were two defenders blanketing Beckham there
RE: that interception was on OBJ for running a sloppy route?  
crick n NC : 12/3/2018 7:46 am : link
In comment 14203261 gidiefor said:
Quote:
geez patootie -- that's crazy

I'm sure Eli wishes he had that ball back - Fuller was breaking on it as he threw it -- there's no way Beckham was beating him to that ball -- Eli was anticipating something that wasn't and it was an ill advised throw - there were two defenders blanketing Beckham there


If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?

Are their opinions something worth considering?
RE: RE: that interception was on OBJ for running a sloppy route?  
bw in dc : 12/3/2018 8:14 am : link
In comment 14203263 crick n NC said:
Quote:


If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?

Are their opinions something worth considering?


Sure - but “experts” get it wrong all the time.

Perhaps they didn’t study the play as closely as it’s been studied here - in terms of frame by frame analysis. I took my time watching the video over and over. And it just crystallized that Manning forced the throw. He completely tipped off the play. Fuller broke quickly and beautifully on the ball once he saw the same thing.


RE: RE: RE: that interception was on OBJ for running a sloppy route?  
crick n NC : 12/3/2018 8:31 am : link
In comment 14203299 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14203263 crick n NC said:


Quote:




If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?

Are their opinions something worth considering?



Sure - but “experts” get it wrong all the time.

Perhaps they didn’t study the play as closely as it’s been studied here - in terms of frame by frame analysis. I took my time watching the video over and over. And it just crystallized that Manning forced the throw. He completely tipped off the play. Fuller broke quickly and beautifully on the ball once he saw the same thing.



I addressed earlier in the thread that experts are not always right. Their understanding of nuances that us fans more than likely don't understand are one reason I tend to value their opinion more than us fans. I am not saying they are 100% right. I am saying that perhaps there could be a little more balance when considering other information.

I actually was pretty sure the play was pretty much 100% on Manning, then after hearing the opinion of guys who played the position I thought maybe I am missing something with my own analysis.

There seems to be a lot of "it's an obvious play, you're stupid if you think otherwise" thinking here which I don't believe is good for anyone, although I fall into it myself at times.
This is so silly.  
Keith : 12/3/2018 8:50 am : link
Its so obvious what the agenda is around here when you look at the posters blaming OBJ. It's so pathetic how far some people will go. I could have listed the names of the people blaming OBJ. lol
No agenda  
crick n NC : 12/3/2018 8:51 am : link
Here
RE: This is so silly.  
dep026 : 12/3/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 14203380 Keith said:
Quote:
Its so obvious what the agenda is around here when you look at the posters blaming OBJ. It's so pathetic how far some people will go. I could have listed the names of the people blaming OBJ. lol


Admit it.... you were shocked I was NOT one of them!
I admit  
Keith : 12/3/2018 9:03 am : link
it.
You prob  
Keith : 12/3/2018 9:04 am : link
would have been first on the list. Although I would need to check the game thread to see your initial reaction.
Terrible route. Bad decision to throw  
Andy in Halifax : 12/3/2018 9:05 am : link
Combo of the two led to an easy pick instead of an incompletion. Not that hard people. I love both Eli and OBJ, they both should want that play over again.

Not apologizing for Eli, as I said above I think it was a poor decision, BUT if that was supposed to be a slant and the back coverage player bites on it there is a good chance he scores if we make the completion. It's happened before, more than once.

But that DB made a hell of a read and Eli didn't recognize it soon enough, poor decision by the QB made worse by a poor effort by the receiver.
RE: You prob  
dep026 : 12/3/2018 9:05 am : link
In comment 14203414 Keith said:
Quote:
would have been first on the list. Although I would need to check the game thread to see your initial reaction.


I can quote you what I said... I said one thing...

"Well that wasnt a good throw."
Here it is...  
dep026 : 12/3/2018 9:07 am : link
Quote:
Well that
dep026 : 12/2/2018 1:41 pm : link : reply
Was a bad throw.
Shameful that this thread needs to be so long  
Jimmy Googs : 12/3/2018 9:08 am : link
not alone be a thread.

Eli fired the ball in w/o realizing the CB was eyeing him and jumping the route.

case closed...
RE: Shameful that this thread needs to be so long  
dep026 : 12/3/2018 9:09 am : link
In comment 14203422 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
not alone be a thread.

Eli fired the ball in w/o realizing the CB was eyeing him and jumping the route.

case closed...


The reply feature was absued more in this thread than Ereck Flowers was against a good DE.
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