Listening to the postgame on WFAN, a caller said something about Eli’s pic and Bob Pappa, kind of agitated, said it wasn’t Eli’s fault, that Toomer broke it down earlier in the broadcast and referred the caller to go back and listen. I can’t find that stream archived anywhere. Can someone who heard it summarize or post a link?
Thanks, man. Is that what Toomer said, or your own analysis?
Quote:
It was a timing route and OBJ ran like at 3/4 speed than actually stopped instead of cutting at the top of the route. The DB undercut him and got the INT
Thanks, man. Is that what Toomer said, or your own analysis?
Toomer said it as did Carl Banks
It had to have been he misunderstood what was called because he ran that like it was a running play and he was a decoy
He said people would then be referring to “OBJing” things, In a complimentaey manner.
He said people would then be referring to “OBJing” things, In a complimentaey manner.
I caught that too and to be honest, it felt like Toomer was being a little bitchy about OBJ (and it's not the first time I have thought that). Almost like he's jealous that OBJ is breaking all his Giants records and overtaking him as the all time Giant great.
Maybe it's just me but it's not a good look for Toomer. (and I'm not saying he's wrong about the route today, just the overall tone)
Just like how he went after the onside kick....halfass
Quote:
Amani said that he wished OBJ would come to work and go 100% because he said while he is great, he could be off the charts if he came to work and ran routes as well as he thought he could.
He said people would then be referring to “OBJing” things, In a complimentaey manner.
I caught that too and to be honest, it felt like Toomer was being a little bitchy about OBJ (and it's not the first time I have thought that). Almost like he's jealous that OBJ is breaking all his Giants records and overtaking him as the all time Giant great.
Maybe it's just me but it's not a good look for Toomer. (and I'm not saying he's wrong about the route today, just the overall tone)
I watched the post game show and I didn’t get that from Amani at all. He expects more from Odell and knows how great he can be. Being a receiver himself, Amani is talking about the details he sees Odell missing. Amani was praising Odell too. Watching it live, it was clear that was Odell’s fault and listening to the panel, Amani, Carl Banks, Papa, etc. it seemed to rub them all the wrong way, how Odell ran that route.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
That’s Complete... conjecture.
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
If Odell gets to the top of the route at full speed and makes his cut, there’s no way Fuller can undercut it. He would have had to go through OBJ which is the whole point of a timing route.
Quote:
In comment 14202718 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
That’s Complete... conjecture.
It’s really not. Look at Fuller. He was playing off with inside leverage and jumped the route twice.
Quote:
In comment 14202725 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202718 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
That’s Complete... conjecture.
It’s really not. Look at Fuller. He was playing off with inside leverage and jumped the route twice.
Show me the evdicne of the interception
Quote:
In comment 14202718 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
If Odell gets to the top of the route at full speed and makes his cut, there’s no way Fuller can undercut it. He would have had to go through OBJ which is the whole point of a timing route.
Fuller jumped the route at 26 seconds when Odell gets to the top, then drops back and jumps it again to get the pick. That ball can’t be thrown there.
Fuller - ( New Window )
Quote:
It was a timing route and OBJ ran like at 3/4 speed than actually stopped instead of cutting at the top of the route. The DB undercut him and got the INT
Just like how he went after the onside kick....halfass
Just like he halfassed his 50 yard TD pass.
Oh, wait...
Prove that the pick doesn’t happen if Odell runs the right route.
Not taking sides, just reporting what was said.
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
Sigh. I’m inclined to listen to Howard Cross, Amani Toomer, Bob Papa, and Carl Banks...before you.
Quote:
In comment 14202718 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
Sigh. I’m inclined to listen to Howard Cross, Amani Toomer, Bob Papa, and Carl Banks...before you.
To be fair you’d be saying the ex player was a moron if it was Booger or Witten blaming it on Eli.
It's a timing route for Eli, he can't decide before throwing it if OBJ is going to get there. He just has to throw it like they've practiced a million times.
OBJ knew he fucked up, hence the halftime speech about leaving it all on the field, and all that.
Quote:
In comment 14202725 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202718 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202710 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The route didn’t cause that pick.
Howard Cross agreed with Amani and went into a little more detail as to how Odell caused the int. The post game show will get posted on the site by tomorrow.
Watch the play. Fuller had the play read before Odell got to the top of his route. That was going to be picked regardless of the route Odell ran.
Sigh. I’m inclined to listen to Howard Cross, Amani Toomer, Bob Papa, and Carl Banks...before you.
To be fair you’d be saying the ex player was a moron if it was Booger or Witten blaming it on Eli.
Booger is a moron. Witten I don’t mind. Cross, Toomer, Papa, Banks, I respect. To be fair and clear.
Wrong
It reminded me of the play a couple of years ago against the Bears where Charles Tillman squatted like he was in zone then jumped the route for a pick 6 because he knew where the ball was going from the jump
The throw was right where the receiver was supposed to be. It's that same timing route that OBJ has hit on a few times. When he runs correctly he takes off like he is going deep which drives that DB back and then as he comes to his cut the ball is thrown so that the min he turns around it's there and he usually has some space to play with.
Because he failed to run off the DB and stopped at his cut it got jumped
Yes. This was essentially what Papa, Cross and Amani were talking about. What I don’t understand is, those guys are never shy about criticizing Eli. They don’t protect him. They’re just matter of fact about what the play was, how it should be executed, and who was most likely at fault. Papa has often said, “You know what? That’s a throw Eli would want back.” He never said that here. Neither did Cross, Banks and Amani. So why do people dig in their heels blaming Eli when these guys say otherwise?
Quote:
Eli has to trust that OBJ will get there, he didn't get there. The way OBJ ran the route, I wonder if it was an audible from a run play and he didn't get the message.
Yes. This was essentially what Papa, Cross and Amani were talking about. What I don’t understand is, those guys are never shy about criticizing Eli. They don’t protect him. They’re just matter of fact about what the play was, how it should be executed, and who was most likely at fault. Papa has often said, “You know what? That’s a throw Eli would want back.” He never said that here. Neither did Cross, Banks and Amani. So why do people dig in their heels blaming Eli when these guys say otherwise?
I don't believe OBJ purposely dogged it, he ran that like he was a decoy but even then he needs to sell it better than that
Quote:
and the route wasn't run crisply-- looked more like a dummy route--- regardless the throw is awful and the poster noting Fuller jumping the route twice is correct in the sense that fuller knew where it was going and the risk reward on the throw was bad
The throw was right where the receiver was supposed to be. It's that same timing route that OBJ has hit on a few times. When he runs correctly he takes off like he is going deep which drives that DB back and then as he comes to his cut the ball is thrown so that the min he turns around it's there and he usually has some space to play with.
Because he failed to run off the DB and stopped at his cut it got jumped
If DB doesn’t get driven back, it’s because he’s read that it’s going to be a slant. Fuller was playing the slant from very early in the route.
Quote:
In comment 14202816 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
Eli has to trust that OBJ will get there, he didn't get there. The way OBJ ran the route, I wonder if it was an audible from a run play and he didn't get the message.
Yes. This was essentially what Papa, Cross and Amani were talking about. What I don’t understand is, those guys are never shy about criticizing Eli. They don’t protect him. They’re just matter of fact about what the play was, how it should be executed, and who was most likely at fault. Papa has often said, “You know what? That’s a throw Eli would want back.” He never said that here. Neither did Cross, Banks and Amani. So why do people dig in their heels blaming Eli when these guys say otherwise?
I don't believe OBJ purposely dogged it, he ran that like he was a decoy but even then he needs to sell it better than that
Pretty much exactly what the post game panel was saying, except there was a slight tone from Howard Cross that hinted he didn’t like the way Odell ran it. And Amani agreed.
As opposed to his "Oh shucky darn, I fucked up again."
I think OBJ lazed it, and it cost us. Not the 1st time he's done this, either.
Quote:
In comment 14202797 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
and the route wasn't run crisply-- looked more like a dummy route--- regardless the throw is awful and the poster noting Fuller jumping the route twice is correct in the sense that fuller knew where it was going and the risk reward on the throw was bad
The throw was right where the receiver was supposed to be. It's that same timing route that OBJ has hit on a few times. When he runs correctly he takes off like he is going deep which drives that DB back and then as he comes to his cut the ball is thrown so that the min he turns around it's there and he usually has some space to play with.
Because he failed to run off the DB and stopped at his cut it got jumped
If DB doesn’t get driven back, it’s because he’s read that it’s going to be a slant. Fuller was playing the slant from very early in the route.
LOL...Just stop already. You're not getting the fact that due to the way he ran that route the other aspects that make a timing pass work fail. Everything is predicated on OBJ running the route correctly or it doesn't work.
I know you earnestly want to blame Eli but you looking silly at this point
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
Again, it's a timing route. Eli is throwing to a spot, and he is expecting that OBJ will get there. It's a one-read throw.
If you want to bitch at Eli, you should bitch about the sack he took in the 4th quarter that led to the punt instead of the FG attempt. Eli is supposed to audible to the run and take the 3.
Quote:
In comment 14202832 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202797 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
and the route wasn't run crisply-- looked more like a dummy route--- regardless the throw is awful and the poster noting Fuller jumping the route twice is correct in the sense that fuller knew where it was going and the risk reward on the throw was bad
The throw was right where the receiver was supposed to be. It's that same timing route that OBJ has hit on a few times. When he runs correctly he takes off like he is going deep which drives that DB back and then as he comes to his cut the ball is thrown so that the min he turns around it's there and he usually has some space to play with.
Because he failed to run off the DB and stopped at his cut it got jumped
If DB doesn’t get driven back, it’s because he’s read that it’s going to be a slant. Fuller was playing the slant from very early in the route.
LOL...Just stop already. You're not getting the fact that due to the way he ran that route the other aspects that make a timing pass work fail. Everything is predicated on OBJ running the route correctly or it doesn't work.
I know you earnestly want to blame Eli but you looking silly at this point
Whatever you say. Eli has never thrown an interception that wasn’t the WRs fault I forgot.
Both things can be true that the route wasn’t run well and the ball shouldn’t have been thrown because Fuller had the inside cut of let early.
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
Again, it's a timing route. Eli is throwing to a spot, and he is expecting that OBJ will get there. It's a one-read throw.
If you want to bitch at Eli, you should bitch about the sack he took in the 4th quarter that led to the punt instead of the FG attempt. Eli is supposed to audible to the run and take the 3.
Pete, this poster spent the whole game thread with one purpose in mind, to dog Eli any chance he could.
Apparently timing routes always have to be thrown no matter how the CB plays the route from the snap.
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
Quote:
In comment 14202855 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202832 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202797 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
and the route wasn't run crisply-- looked more like a dummy route--- regardless the throw is awful and the poster noting Fuller jumping the route twice is correct in the sense that fuller knew where it was going and the risk reward on the throw was bad
The throw was right where the receiver was supposed to be. It's that same timing route that OBJ has hit on a few times. When he runs correctly he takes off like he is going deep which drives that DB back and then as he comes to his cut the ball is thrown so that the min he turns around it's there and he usually has some space to play with.
Because he failed to run off the DB and stopped at his cut it got jumped
If DB doesn’t get driven back, it’s because he’s read that it’s going to be a slant. Fuller was playing the slant from very early in the route.
LOL...Just stop already. You're not getting the fact that due to the way he ran that route the other aspects that make a timing pass work fail. Everything is predicated on OBJ running the route correctly or it doesn't work.
I know you earnestly want to blame Eli but you looking silly at this point
Whatever you say. Eli has never thrown an interception that wasn’t the WRs fault I forgot.
Both things can be true that the route wasn’t run well and the ball shouldn’t have been thrown because Fuller had the inside cut of let early.
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
Again, it's a timing route. Eli is throwing to a spot, and he is expecting that OBJ will get there. It's a one-read throw.
If you want to bitch at Eli, you should bitch about the sack he took in the 4th quarter that led to the punt instead of the FG attempt. Eli is supposed to audible to the run and take the 3.
Pete, this poster spent the whole game thread with one purpose in mind, to dog Eli any chance he could.
Of course there are people here who would rather blame Eli for a loss than celebrate a win. That's been obvious since the day he was drafted.
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
Now, if OBJ gets to the spot then at worst it is incomplete.
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
And it wasn't a slant OBJ ran it was a down and in
What don’t you get about it was a timing route,?
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
Fuller was lined up inside of Odell at the line of scrimmage.
Will have to tweet Bob Papa, Howard Cross, etc and tell them some fans are tired of them
Now, if OBJ gets to the spot then at worst it is incomplete.
By that analysis, OBJ is more at fault.
Why run half-3/4 speed? Isn't that the real question?
I thought superstars go hard all the time...........
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
Quote:
In comment 14202893 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
Fuller was lined up inside of Odell at the line of scrimmage.
No he wasn't..He was playing him heads up 4 yards off. Here's the replay, I mean come on you're just making things up now
link - ( New Window )
Yeah, but did you play QB with a receiver like OBJ?
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
I just went back and looked at it. He wasn't as inside as I thought, but he's still on the inside shoulder. However in his back pedal he's moving much more inside. Fuller knows the route he's clearly seen something on film. Like I said before Odell's shit effort got that ball picked, but it should never have been thrown to begin with. The presnap wasnt as bad as I thought becausee well its Odell your not gonna not throw it to him just because hes shaded inside. But everything that went on during that play Eli should have daignosed especially because he was looking the whole time.
Quote:
Just a simple prove it.
Prove that the pick doesn’t happen if Odell runs the right route.
Quote:
In comment 14202896 montanagiant said:
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
Are you saying a corner never won on a slant route vs Irvin?
Quote:
Odell's effort was dogshit there and that ball probably hits the deck on a 50/50 ball. Eli should have never thrown that ball though. Fuller is lined up way inside and doesnt even get into his back pedal. Hes sitting slant the whole time. How people don't see this blows my mind. Maybe its because I played some QB in high school but it seems fairly obvious no?
Yeah, but did you play QB with a receiver like OBJ?
Lol no but see my above post.
Quote:
In comment 14202896 montanagiant said:
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
He just refuses to understand that with a threat like OBJ if he takes off at full speed a DB on an island has no option but to play him back because he will burn him deep. The way OBJ ran that Fuller probably thought it was a run play and thus had no worry about being beaten over the top
The mechanics of the WR position don't change just because they're different types of players. You can put a practice squad guy out there, and he knows that on that route, you have to go hard up to sell the deep route, and then hard cut in and beat the DB to the spot.
Neither the "hard up" nor the "hard cut in" happened. It made the INT easy as pie for Fuller.
Quote:
In comment 14202899 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202893 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
Fuller was lined up inside of Odell at the line of scrimmage.
No he wasn't..He was playing him heads up 4 yards off. Here's the replay, I mean come on you're just making things up now link - ( New Window )
Fullers outside foot is lined up with Odell’s inside foot... that’s inside leverage. He then shades more inside when the ball is snapped.
Quote:
In comment 14202893 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
I just went back and looked at it. He wasn't as inside as I thought, but he's still on the inside shoulder. However in his back pedal he's moving much more inside. Fuller knows the route he's clearly seen something on film. Like I said before Odell's shit effort got that ball picked, but it should never have been thrown to begin with. The presnap wasnt as bad as I thought becausee well its Odell your not gonna not throw it to him just because hes shaded inside. But everything that went on during that play Eli should have daignosed especially because he was looking the whole time.
Timing routes are bang-bang plays and with a talent like OBJ he wins that 99% of the time if he runs them correctly. Once again, I think it was an audible out of a run call because OBJ was one on one with Fuller and he just missed the call. To me that replay looks as if OBJ is going out to block Fuller more then anything else
Quote:
In comment 14202907 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202896 montanagiant said:
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
He just refuses to understand that with a threat like OBJ if he takes off at full speed a DB on an island has no option but to play him back because he will burn him deep. The way OBJ ran that Fuller probably thought it was a run play and thus had no worry about being beaten over the top
Fuller recognizes the play from something he saw on film or previously in the game. He clearly had it read the whole time.
Quote:
In comment 14202912 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202899 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202893 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14202877 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14202871 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Was awful. The route wasn't run clean but Fuller had the inside covered right away. Eli never should have thrown it there. Tired of the Eli apologists.
My god the sheer lack of any kind of understanding how a timing route works from you is really telling
How does a timing route change whether or not you should throw a slant when the defender is lined up inside and shows no urgency in his backpedal. I'm curious what your reasoning is here?
He wasn't lined up inside he was behind OBJ and then stepped up when OBJ stopped his route and didn't make the cut to undercut. He was never lined up parallel and inside of OBJ
Fuller was lined up inside of Odell at the line of scrimmage.
No he wasn't..He was playing him heads up 4 yards off. Here's the replay, I mean come on you're just making things up now link - ( New Window )
Fullers outside foot is lined up with Odell’s inside foot... that’s inside leverage. He then shades more inside when the ball is snapped.
LOL..You are hilariously bad
He. Wasn't. Running. Hard.
Quote:
In comment 14202907 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202896 montanagiant said:
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
He just refuses to understand that with a threat like OBJ if he takes off at full speed a DB on an island has no option but to play him back because he will burn him deep. The way OBJ ran that Fuller probably thought it was a run play and thus had no worry about being beaten over the top
I only count 10 players in the frame, so Fuller possibly didn’t even have to worry about him going deep because he had safety help.
Quote:
In comment 14202920 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 14202907 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14202896 montanagiant said:
Quote:
There you go, you know you don't have shit for any kind of an argument so you decide to play the strawman game of claiming I'm saying it's never Eli's fault. Meanwhile you don't even comprehend what proper route running is
Did you not turn saying “you can’t throw that ball there” into a “you just want to hate on Eli”?
I don’t think you comprehend that you can’t throw a slant when the corner in lined up off the line, with inside leverage and doesn’t put effort into his back pedal.
You sure as hell can throw a slant if your receiver runs the route hard, regardless of what the fucking DB does.
Michael Irvin made his living doing that shit in the early 90s. Do you not think that corners didn't line up with inside leverage and wait for the slant on Irvin? What was the difference? Irvin ran his routes hard and got his body between DB and ball. OBJ didn't do that, in this instance.
He just refuses to understand that with a threat like OBJ if he takes off at full speed a DB on an island has no option but to play him back because he will burn him deep. The way OBJ ran that Fuller probably thought it was a run play and thus had no worry about being beaten over the top
Fuller recognizes the play from something he saw on film or previously in the game. He clearly had it read the whole time.
Could be, but the only reason why I don't agree with this is that we would have gone back to that again and instead run a hitch to beat him over the top. I still think that because of how OBJ ran that route Fuller stepped up thinking it was a run his way and grabbed the inside angle so he couldn't get blocked out of bounds and the ball fell into his lap.
Beckham didn’t half ass it. He planted and cut butthe guy jumped in front of him. Is he supposed to run him over? The guy beat him there. No chance for Beckham to do much.
He. Wasn't. Running. Hard.
Theres no way he gets to the spot before Odell does if he knows the play. If Odell runs hard though it probably doesnt get picked.
Beckham didn’t half ass it. He planted and cut butthe guy jumped in front of him. Is he supposed to run him over? The guy beat him there. No chance for Beckham to do much.
No he didn't look at the replay, he didn't make a cut at all he just stopped
Beckham didn’t half ass it. He planted and cut butthe guy jumped in front of him. Is he supposed to run him over? The guy beat him there. No chance for Beckham to do much.
He didn't half ass it from the snap? That's his 100% hard break? If that's his break at top speed, he would get open about as much as Howard Cross in 1995.
Fuller was lined up inside of Odell at the line of scrimmage.
No he wasn't..He was playing him heads up 4 yards off. Here's the replay, I mean come on you're just making things up now link - ( New Window )
Fullers outside foot is lined up with Odell’s inside foot... that’s inside leverage. He then shades more inside when the ball is snapped.
LOL..You are hilariously bad
Watch the all 22 when it comes out tommorow. He was not heads up. He wasn’t a yard inside, but he was shaded inside of Odell.
But let’s be real - Eli should not have thrown that.
He jumped. Backed off. Jumped again.
Beckham was the problem? No. The CB( who currently leads the NFL I INTS) beat him there and made the play.
Beckham saw him jump. He was trying to adjust. Ball was already on the way.
He jumped. Backed off. Jumped again.
Beckham was the problem? No. The CB( who currently leads the NFL I INTS) beat him there and made the play.
Beckham saw him jump. He was trying to adjust. Ball was already on the way.
Can someone make a GIF of the last 7 seconds of this video?
Beckham's release off the snap is dogshit. He is jogging.
He either thought it was a run play or he thought the ball was going to the flat and trying to block.
Link - ( New Window )
It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.
Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.
He jumped. Backed off. Jumped again.
Beckham was the problem? No. The CB( who currently leads the NFL I INTS) beat him there and made the play.
Beckham saw him jump. He was trying to adjust. Ball was already on the way.
Come on that's ridiculous. I'm still trying to figure out the whole "Looking off the safety aspect you mentioned when there's no safety anywhere around
It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.
Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.
There's nothing to look off here. Fuller is in man looking to jump an inside route the whole time.
It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.
Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.
The DB yes, but not the safety.
Kwall you know that a timing route is a bang-bang play, looking at that replay do you honestly believe OBJ thought that was a timing route to him? IF so he has lost a helluva lot of speed because that route was run at 3/4 speed OBJ normally plays at
Why? Really?
I've watched it at least 10 times now. He is jogging. It is an awful break.
Still love the guy, but on that particular play, he takes the goat horns at about 60 percent in my mind. Eli gets 40 percent of the blame because the flat is open for Shepherd for a few yards and maybe more.
Are you new to BBI? We can re-visit the old Eli/Sean Taylor/Robert Gallery debate, lol.
Quote:
He stopped because the DB was in his path. He adjusted. Ball was already on the way.
It’s a reach to rip Beckham here. Db made the play. He was all over it early in the play.
Is Toomer,s point, Eli could have impacted the DBs read by looking him off? That’s a legit point.
There's nothing to look off here. Fuller is in man looking to jump an inside route the whole time.
And your usually not looking someone off on a timing route, you take your 3 steps and fire the ball to a spot because you got the best WR in the game that your throwing to.
Once again I think it's as simple as a miscommunication that resulted in OBJ thinking it's a running play. He's human and shit happens. We still won and that's the whole point
LMAO...it's gotten to be like politics at this point. Especially since we took Barkley and not a QB
I mean there were posters who truly believed the pick before the half against philly was because Odell wants the ball more..
Quote:
This place is ridiculous. It's like there is never any middle ground even when we have actual video evidence in front of us. It's always 100 percent this or 100 percent that.
I mean there were posters who truly believed the pick before the half against philly was because Odell wants the ball more..
I freely blame Eli for the pick before the half last week. He forced it to OBJ, surely. I think he never saw Jenkins and he thought he had 1 on 1 with OBJ in the end zone vs. the safety that almost ripped OBJ's helmet off.
Or...
On the snap, you look another direction and the CB does not jump it.
Of course you do.
All day long this happens in a football game including pop warner.
Of course you do.
All day long this happens in a football game including pop warner.
You look off routes to get the safeties playing zone to move not the corners in man.
Or...
On the snap, you look another direction and the CB does not jump it.
It wouldn't matter if Eli was looking to the other side of the field and came back the corner there is jumping the route. He wasn't in zone. Looking off guys is for zone coverage to get them to flow where your eyes are.
Right off the snap the DB is on Eli. He doesn’t even look at Beckham.
To the guy above saying the QB only moves the S? That is BS. You do not look off only S. They aren’t the only players the QB impacts before the throw.
Would it have made a difference here? I don’t know. But that CB peaked early. Saw the QB looking his way and jumped it.
Eli? Maybe he tipped it off early. I think that’s what the DB saw and jumped.
Eli made a poor decision. He shouldn’t have thrown it. OBJ ran a lazy route for whatever reason and no knows what would happen if he ran full speed but there’s a great chance it would have been a negative play so Ei shouldn’t have thrown it.
Eli? Maybe he tipped it off early. I think that’s what the DB saw and jumped.
What tipped it off was the formation and the routes that came out of it. Fuller knew that was going to be an inside route. People are ragging on Odell because he was dogging the route a bit.
I've noticed Odell does this quite a bit actually. Now I don't know if it is to set up his breaks, but in my uninformed opinion it does look like he's dogging it.
On the cut? Didn’t see it because the DB was already there before he cut.
Did Beckham tip him off presnap? Maybe.
But on the close up you see, on the snap, DB is on Eli, and jumps it. He isn’t even looking at Beckham.
On the cut? Didn’t see it because the DB was already there before he cut.
If you don't see it I'll take your word for it, but everyone else seems to including the former players. Like I said before this is something I've noticed with Odell and it may be how he sets up his routes. Similar to a hesitation move in basketball so he can blow buy his guy and take it to the house with the yac. I can't say because I'm not privy to what goes in in the meetings.
So you're saying that OBJ knew this was a timing route and he decided to half ass the route?
I don't buy that for instance. Not when he knows he's getting the ball
Did Beckham tip him off presnap? Maybe.
But on the close up you see, on the snap, DB is on Eli, and jumps it. He isn’t even looking at Beckham.
Yes out of the formation Shephard runs directly to the flat. Something in film showed that the route tendency for Odell as soon as he see that is an in route. His eyes are on Eli because he's trying to time his break when Eli starts to throw the ball. Even if he "looked off" Eli needs to come back playside set and throw and he would have just broke it than. Once again looking off is for zone coverage to get the defensive backs to move them to where you want to go not for man coverage.
Quote:
I'm not sure why you've written that narrative for this play. Fuller keeps shading inside and Odell is still running vertical not mirroring him.
So you're saying that OBJ knew this was a timing route and he decided to half ass the route?
I don't buy that for instance. Not when he knows he's getting the ball
He does that on his routes sometimes. We don't even know if its "half assing." It may be similar to a hesitation move in basketball where you use varying speeds to blow by defenders. Can't really know that unless your inside the meeting rooms.
Well because in all likelihood he committed the cardinal sin of not giving full effort where as Eli just made a poor decision. I agree with them there that if that the case it is totally unacceptable.
But, I was listening on the radio for that play. Banks immediately said the throw was late, but the route looked off. He watched the replay and said the INT was 100% on OBJ because his route was sloppy, lazy, and late. Banks was absolutely certain on this.
Eli’s football tombstone at BBI will read this was for Eli’s Army:
“353 TDs and 235 INTs that weren’t his fault.”
The lengths they go to protect Eli really is extraordinary.
Eli’s football tombstone at BBI will read this was for Eli’s Army:
“353 TDs and 235 INTs that weren’t his fault.”
The lengths they go to protect Eli really is extraordinary.
I'm sure Eli wishes he had that ball back - Fuller was breaking on it as he threw it -- there's no way Beckham was beating him to that ball -- Eli was anticipating something that wasn't and it was an ill advised throw - there were two defenders blanketing Beckham there
I'm sure Eli wishes he had that ball back - Fuller was breaking on it as he threw it -- there's no way Beckham was beating him to that ball -- Eli was anticipating something that wasn't and it was an ill advised throw - there were two defenders blanketing Beckham there
If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?
Are their opinions something worth considering?
If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?
Are their opinions something worth considering?
Sure - but “experts” get it wrong all the time.
Perhaps they didn’t study the play as closely as it’s been studied here - in terms of frame by frame analysis. I took my time watching the video over and over. And it just crystallized that Manning forced the throw. He completely tipped off the play. Fuller broke quickly and beautifully on the ball once he saw the same thing.
Quote:
If it is that easy to analyze, what is the reason for the explanation that came from Toomer, cross, and banks?
Are their opinions something worth considering?
Sure - but “experts” get it wrong all the time.
Perhaps they didn’t study the play as closely as it’s been studied here - in terms of frame by frame analysis. I took my time watching the video over and over. And it just crystallized that Manning forced the throw. He completely tipped off the play. Fuller broke quickly and beautifully on the ball once he saw the same thing.
I addressed earlier in the thread that experts are not always right. Their understanding of nuances that us fans more than likely don't understand are one reason I tend to value their opinion more than us fans. I am not saying they are 100% right. I am saying that perhaps there could be a little more balance when considering other information.
I actually was pretty sure the play was pretty much 100% on Manning, then after hearing the opinion of guys who played the position I thought maybe I am missing something with my own analysis.
There seems to be a lot of "it's an obvious play, you're stupid if you think otherwise" thinking here which I don't believe is good for anyone, although I fall into it myself at times.
Admit it.... you were shocked I was NOT one of them!
Not apologizing for Eli, as I said above I think it was a poor decision, BUT if that was supposed to be a slant and the back coverage player bites on it there is a good chance he scores if we make the completion. It's happened before, more than once.
But that DB made a hell of a read and Eli didn't recognize it soon enough, poor decision by the QB made worse by a poor effort by the receiver.
I can quote you what I said... I said one thing...
"Well that wasnt a good throw."
dep026 : 12/2/2018 1:41 pm : link : reply
Was a bad throw.
Eli fired the ball in w/o realizing the CB was eyeing him and jumping the route.
case closed...
Eli fired the ball in w/o realizing the CB was eyeing him and jumping the route.
case closed...
The reply feature was absued more in this thread than Ereck Flowers was against a good DE.