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So what's your take on Shurmur as Head Coach?

gidiefor : Mod : 12/3/2018 8:31 am
I'll start this off. I'm not ready to throw the towel in on Shurmur yet. After watching the Giants put together more than a handful of really good offensive plays -- including some exciting surprise plays against a really good defense -- I think the Giants have been flashing on Offense the way we expected them to -- albeit rather late in the season. I think the players are playing with real energy for the most part. To pull off an overtime win like yesterday is a test of will power imo.

I keep looking back at Pederson's first season as HC, and he kept making what seemed like bonehead decision after bonehead decision all season his first season -- but you could see flashes of stuff out of his team -- he was really able to put his stamp on the same type of decisions in his second season and make it work.

I am coming to the conclusion that there are a handful of coach killers still on the Giants -- I think some have been shipped out and more still to come. Me I would like to see what Shurmur could do with a team that has his stamp on it -- I think our offense has the chance to be really explosive with him. I think Betcher is also a victim of having a mixed bag of flaws to play with.
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Belichick 12 games in with the Patriots... 3-9  
Dan in the Springs : 12/3/2018 9:37 am : link
Not saying he's BB, just saying if you want to build a great team you don't give up on the HC based on the current record. You have to look at the job he's doing.

IMO, the team keeps improving despite the 1-7 start. That's the most important thing. I think he's definitely got leadership potential and has shown he can weather difficult times. I think he may turn out to be the guy who could lead us to our next SB championship.
RE: The play calling  
Carson53 : 12/3/2018 9:38 am : link
In comment 14203426 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
drives me crazy.

Three straight runs into the middle of the line from the one with oneo of the worst OL's in the NFL?????

Every time we have an incomplete pass on first down, Shumur runs Barkley into the line on second down. Every time!

Whenever we run misdirection the play looks to have potential. So why not misdirection on every play instead of the entire eleven just standing still at the LOS and trying to overpower the D.

Why didn't we have a cb covering Tarik Cohen particularly late in the game in lieu of Collins?

Why can't the Jints and Eli run an effective screen pass?

I'm not talking about asking Eli to run a zone read or something he is just not capable of doing. I'm talking about relieving the pressure on a very limited OL and getting the ball to one of our playmakers in space. Every other team in the league runs an effective screen. Why can't the Jints?

Etc.
.

That wheel route play to Cohen worked twice in fact,
the previous time I believe Grant was in coverage...
I am not impressed with Grant either, I can see why
he was an UDFA, plays hard, but his skill level is lacking.
No real good matchup with someone as quick as Cohen.
The play on Collins was a 4th down play too, that matchup was terrible.
After the mirage with Big Mac year 1  
mattlawson : 12/3/2018 9:42 am : link
I like the idea of slow steady improvements week after week. Shoring up the offense of line next year and the defense is going to work wonders for this team. If we can get back to running the football and playing great defense and controlling the game weíve got a recipe that will win.
RE: The play calling  
Greg from LI : 12/3/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 14203426 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
Why can't the Jints and Eli run an effective screen pass?


I don't think Eli is going to suddenly develop this skill in year 15.
I was upset about Collins guarding Cohen  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/3/2018 9:52 am : link
but then I thought it might be too difficult to change those responsibilities in game because they would affect other platforms.

I'm ok with Shurmur, I think he follows the Reid model of blocking criticism and that will make his players appreciate him.

Concerned with his time mgmt skills, but I think he coaches by feel, sometimes that works for you sometimes it doesnt. We'll have to see how that works for the Giants.
I'm disappointed in Shurmur thus far  
YAJ2112 : 12/3/2018 9:53 am : link
I thought he would have come in more prepared in his second go round.
honestly  
giantfan2000 : 12/3/2018 9:56 am : link

Giants had gut wrenching loss against divisional foe last week
whatever playoff hopes disappeared with eagles loss

and to come back and beat a decent Chicago team
offense holding it's own against one of best defenses in the league

a win like this is impressive

As soon as he realizes (and maybe this was yesterday)  
idiotsavant : 12/3/2018 9:59 am : link
What outdoors NFC East football is all about (rough, tough, opportunistic D with lots of running) he will be fine.

Because he seems to have competence and excellence in the shiney fancy aspects of the game ..which rest upon the dual pillars of tough D and running.
I don't think any of us has a clue.  
CT Charlie : 12/3/2018 9:59 am : link
All we see is what we see: on-field effort and execution, and his press conferences. We have very little idea how well he evaluates and handles coaches or players, which are the key parts of the job.

My best guesses are these: A- for on-field effort; C- for execution (though improving); and low B for press conferences. I was just forced to read the Belichick bio, and from that it's clear he's A/A+ for player effort, A+ for player execution; D for press conferences (who cares?); A+ for evaluating and handling players and coaches.
I think the guy  
jtfuoco : 12/3/2018 10:03 am : link
is a good coordinator but is just not a natural HC every time a critical decision needs to be made he always seems to make the wrong one. In addition his player rotations make no sense and his poor clock management I think is mainly due to his head buried into the play sheet. Will he get better? Maybe but I just get the feeling we are going to see a lot of 8-8 season with him leading this team.
I do agree with comments about more  
idiotsavant : 12/3/2018 10:06 am : link
Misdirection and east west run/pass stuff. Play action, options, shanny shit. Whatever. Less vanilla drop backs ...which has been a compliant since day one of macadoo. But strangely I think it's a preference thing, maybe a new oc would do it, as opposed to that they cannot. Which is good news however annoying. And a pro bowl center and blocking TE would work wonders here
Typo  
idiotsavant : 12/3/2018 10:07 am : link
Complaint not compliant
not very enthusiastic,  
BIGbluegermany : 12/3/2018 10:10 am : link
but we have to give him some time, definitely the next season
I'm still  
Photoguy : 12/3/2018 10:13 am : link
all in on him. I also think this will be an interesting off-season.
Shurmur  
Geno 78 : 12/3/2018 10:14 am : link
According to the announcers yesterday, there were only 16 players from last year's team active today out of 53. That is an amazing number. Shurmur will be back No Doubt and deserves it.
Shurmur's biggest problem/flaw is how he coaches on gameday  
NYGmen58 : 12/3/2018 10:20 am : link
He is of sound mind (unlike MacAdoo who was a sociopath) and has the team prepared each week, and they play hard for him, but his clock management, playcalling, decisions when to go for 2, etc. have been utterly appalling.

Unless they somehow lose all their remaining 4 games, he will and should be back next year.
Curious as to who you think the coach killers are.  
Snacks : 12/3/2018 10:21 am : link
Most of the ones I would have picked have been shipped out of town already.

Did you mean backup players put into starting roles like Pulley who we will hopefully look to replace/upgrade once the season is over?
Like the rest of the team  
Mike from Ohio : 12/3/2018 10:23 am : link
significant improvement is necessary, especially with game management. Like the rest of this team there is both potential, and flaws. Like this team, he needs to show continued focus on improving. The team is still fighting which is good, but the team is also still playing largely undisciplined football. The latter seems to be embedded in the DNA of this team for the past 5 or so years.

If he will continue calling plays, I think he needs to have someone else on staff who is managing the clock and in his hear with how/when they will use timeouts. It seems he is so focused on play calling that he loses sight of the overall game strategy. He also needs to get better in taking what is there vs. running what he likes. That seemed much improved yesterday.

Not time to give up yet, but would like to see if he improves as the year goes on.
I think he's just OK.....  
Simms11 : 12/3/2018 10:23 am : link
Game Management is lacking, but I think he could develop a better awareness of what he needs to do. He's definitely going to get one more year and possibly two more years IMO, depending on who the QB is next year. If we bring in a rookie then he will probably be given time to develop that QB and to see how the team does. I do like his play design and the offense has shown that they can be a pretty damn good unit given better Oline performance week to week. Of course having a guy like Barkley on your team can surely help, but he needs to keep using him like he did yesterday. Anyway, I've been one that has said I have no confidence in him, but I'll give him the shadow of the doubt this year and see how the team progresses next year under him, with better talent.
This is his second job  
arniefez : 12/3/2018 10:24 am : link
he is what he is. A guy without the skill set to be a HC in the NFL. The game moves too fast for him. He is not aggressive enough to be a good NFL HC. The NFL is not a place for counter punching.
Way too early to write him off  
AcesUp : 12/3/2018 10:24 am : link
I think he's done some things well and others not so well. He's done a great job handling the media and adversity, this was not an easy job to step into. His players are playing extremely hard and they haven't turtled, which speaks to him as a coach. While others are not a fan, I like the aggressive calls on 4th down and in 2 point conversion attempts as well.

On the negative side, he has zero clock management skills. Unless he takes up Madden in the offseason, I don't see that getting better. Andy Reid is an excellent coach that has this blindspot as well, so it's not the end all but it's something that will be a problem. He should really consider bringing in a specialist to help him in this area. Playcalling and scheme is meh. As fans we tend to put too much blame on coaching when the players don't execute but that Eagle game last week was as bad as it gets. All coaches have bad games and 3/4 of a season with a bad OL isn't really a good sample size to make this judgement though.
I'll give him some time  
Eli Wilson : 12/3/2018 10:28 am : link
The team has shown some good moments. But if he comes back next year with his hair slicked back, I'm out.
I'm positive on Shurmur  
Gregorio : 12/3/2018 10:50 am : link
the players are responding well to him, they haven't quit in times of adversity. This is job 1 of a head coach, and he is doing well at it. NYG's win total after 12 games has already improved over the 2017 season.

His game management has been head scratching at times, but this as an area that can be improved.

What I read on this forum often, is typical knee-jerk reaction to the disappointment of a loss, calling for the firing of the head coach.

I also agree with the OP that Betcher was dealt a poor hand talent wise. I'd like to see what he can do with better talent, before passing judgment.




He's going to keep losing us games  
BH28 : 12/3/2018 11:46 am : link
unless he pulls a Tom Coughlin and works on his shortcomings this offseason. Ideally he would do this proactively and not in reaction to being on the hot seat.

This is not unique to Shurmur, but generally speaking coaches seem to be ultra conservative for no reason. For instance, and i think this is one reason why McCarthy got fired, I think there was a play against the Seahwaks where they had a 60% chance of converting a 4th and 2. Converting would have given the Packers a 50 something % chance of winning, punting was 26% and failing to convert was like 20%. They punted and lost.

The coaches who have a better grasp on this concept are the ones who do well. It doesn't matter with a shitty team, but if you have two evenly matched teams, that difference in philosophy can make a real difference.

Shurmur got shit for going for 2 down 8, and while yes, statistically that was correct, he deservedly should get shit because he fails to understand the analytics concept in other situations that dont invovle scoring plays.

I think he is getting a bad rap  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 12/3/2018 1:03 pm : link
here.
i don't think he's good  
GiantsFan84 : 12/3/2018 1:20 pm : link
but i will give him this. his team plays hard.
need to remember this too  
GiantsFan84 : 12/3/2018 1:21 pm : link
if barkley doesn't do barkley things, this team has 1 maybe 2 wins this year
All that being said  
idiotsavant : 12/3/2018 1:34 pm : link
(don't fire, let's get real, he needs time) on miked up he sounds like a "dad at the club asking for galapeno poppers" dork..."bro" this and that. Hehe.

Advise pull a Landry and dress up - keep quiet.
He inherited a really tough  
phil in arizona : 12/3/2018 2:06 pm : link
situation... The turnover (even into the season), the schedule, the offensive line, etc. The 'scratch your head' decisions probably outweigh the good flashes and the discipline is still lacking, but they've been 'in' most games.
We were an unwatchable mess and now there is a sense of optimism. Shurmer definitely gets some credit for that.

Iíd like to see how this team finishes December  
djm : 12/3/2018 2:19 pm : link
Iím not in love with his game day nuances or clock mgmt but to me thatís correctable and at times overstated by fans. His overall playcalling has been a plus in my view. I think Eli and the OL had a dreadful first half that would have been pretty hard to hide, no matter who was head coach here.

I think some of the critiques are warranted but correctable while others may be a bit unfounded or overstated. Plus, thereís a good possibility that shurmur is coaching more with the long view in my mind. Who knows for sure. What I do know is the team is playing its best ball since December 2016. But they need to keep it up. Letís be honest the first half schedule was brutally difficult. It they could somehow win 3-4 I think it would bode well for the future. Can they get 3 wins from this list of games?

@ skins
Home vs Titans
@ Colts
Home vs dallas

This would bother some but 7-9 would make me feel much better about 2019.

Need to see more. These next four games will tell a lot.
We saw a glimpse of what Shurmur could be  
SHO'NUFF : 12/3/2018 2:21 pm : link
Most of the 1st half vs Philly and the first series after halftime today....for some reason, he has some loser mentality and can't handle success
And thereís no question  
djm : 12/3/2018 2:22 pm : link
Shurmur has balls. He doesnít coach scared. Heís been aggressive and trying to build this offense up to something legit. Some of you hate the 2 pt attempts, Iím not even in love with that but at least shurmur is trying to imprint this offense with some confidence. We shouldnít be blaming him for that. This offense was softer than Twinkie the last 5 years or more. We need this.
Lastly  
djm : 12/3/2018 2:32 pm : link
Just to reiterate, some of the second guessing here is downright laughable. Now some are killing shurmur for running Barkley 3 straight times? Lol... right. And last week he was an idiot for not running Barkley enough!

The playcalling is the least of our worries. Some of you live to second guess every single playcall that doesnít work.

The guy is a brilliant playcaller based on history. He didnít forget how to run and offense and judging by this seasonís progression seems to be getting this offense into a better place.

Worry about shurmusís personnel decisions and overall team building. That right there is the most understated aspect of coaching in my view.
RE: need to remember this too  
djm : 12/3/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14203963 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
if barkley doesn't do barkley things, this team has 1 maybe 2 wins this year


Thatís unfair and impossible to say for sure. Where would Sean Payton be without Drew Brees?

Simple question? Is this team getting better? Do you see progress?
RE: RE: need to remember this too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/3/2018 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14204074 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14203963 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


if barkley doesn't do barkley things, this team has 1 maybe 2 wins this year



Thatís unfair and impossible to say for sure. Where would Sean Payton be without Drew Brees?

Simple question? Is this team getting better? Do you see progress?


I dont think I'd go so far as to say it's unfair. Barkley has insane production. It wouldn't be sound analysis if we didnt acknowledge that the team would be significantly less effective without that in the lineup. All of us can think of at least two occasions where Barkley made a singular play that put them in position to win when they were looking at defeat.
I think he's just an OC..  
bw in dc : 12/3/2018 3:59 pm : link
who should focus on play-calling and QB development. That appears to be his ceiling.

The straw that broke the camel's back for me was his petty act last week with the Rosas-IVs-Beckham thing. It was a reflection of a man with very think skin doing a job that requires the exact opposite.
I don't like him at all  
PaulN : 12/3/2018 4:02 pm : link
Like BB56 I am shocked at how bad his play calling and game management are and I also never saw that coming at all. The team has not quit on him though and he has 4 games to turn the team around, if he wins the next 4 games I would feel much better about him, but if he lost the last four I would continue to be very disappointed.

I am more disappointed in the entire organization then just Shurmur. The handling of Eli Manning's end of his career has been butchered. Getting rid of Coughlin and keeping Reese was as stupid a decision by management as I have ever seen from the Giants. Keeping Coughlin as GM and firing Reese was an obviously needed move, but they blew it. Now we have Gettleman and Shurmur, is anyone thrilled over these guys, anyone think it's just more of the same old crap, I know that is what I fear.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/3/2018 4:06 pm : link
He makes a lot of questionable decisions and it's possible he's really just a OC getting HC checks right now - but I think things have started to improve a bit in recent weeks in some areas.

I think he cost us the Eagles game and there have been some really stupid mistakes, but I could see this continuing to get better with a little more time. If we win 2-3 of the last 4 and are competitive all the way through, I think he should be back next year.

I expected better - but if we finish strong, I'll be more willing to give it time. The roster still needs a lot of help. The talent level out on the field right now isn't exactly playoff-caliber and we made "sellers" trades that temporarily weakened it further.

The team is still playing hard for him so I'm okay with staying the course.

What happens over the last quarter of the season will definitely shift my opinion one way or the other.
No...  
Doomster : 12/3/2018 11:11 pm : link
The key is learning from mistakes
TommytheElephant : 9:16 am : link : reply
Barkley got a lot of touches this week so I take that as an adjustment from last week.


He should have learned from his mistakes the first time around with the Browns....his game plans are questionable, and clock management is a head scratcher....
RE: If nothing else  
markky : 12/4/2018 1:03 am : link
In comment 14203447 lecky said:
Quote:
he should be fired for the way the Giants handled that onside kick.They were totally out of sorts and seemed to have no idea what they were doing. Other than his horrible clock management, his lack of ingenuity on offense and defense, and now this. Boot him and lets try someone new.


on the other hand, who would have thought a team would be in position to have to on sides kick against us this year? probably didn't even have defending an on sides kick in the playbook : )
Ummm....  
trueblueinpw : 12/4/2018 1:34 am : link
Seriously though, whatís to like about this guy?

He isnít Ben McAdíoh arrogant, but still the same he seems like a fool on game day with his decisions and clock management. When I listen to his pressers he seems like he isnít particularly quick, which isnít a flaw you can hide as an NFL head coach. His offensive game plans and schemes donít seem like theyíre setting any new trends in the NFL or vexing D cos. I guess heís kept the locker room together and the players are playing hard but at the end of the day thatís only going to last for so long on a losing team. NFL teams need a CEO type like TC or Tuna or Holmgren maybe, or they need a wiz kid type like McVay or even Pederson. I guess Shurmur might wind up like a Mike Zimmer type of guy who can run one side of the ball and delegate the other. I donít know. But he doesnít seem like heís particularly distinguished as a leader.
He's going to be here 2019, especially if we table a new QB for 2020  
widmerseyebrow : 12/4/2018 2:44 am : link
No coach is going to be without mistakes, you just hope he learns and improves with the team.
I am hoping in the offseason  
St. Jimmy : 12/4/2018 5:59 am : link
he improves his in game management. You can see some well designed plays for instance the OBJ TD. He improves on time management I think he'll be fine.
time management seems questionable at times  
bc4life : 12/4/2018 7:38 am : link
but they are playing hard. will be interesting to watch offense when they fix that right tackle spot
RE: I don't think it's about learning from mistakes  
Jersey55 : 12/4/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14203445 Milton said:
Quote:
It's about learning what the current personnel can and can not execute well enough. Which is an ongoing process for every coach in the NFL including Belichick. The roster is always changing, players are developing at different rates, some not at all. Every game the coach learns something new about the players in his locker room.

I was a fan of the Shurmur hire and so far, so good as far as he's concerned. I have more issues with Gettleman, who's had some obvious misses, but he's also hit a couple out of the park, and I always say that a GM needs to be judged on how many he gets right, not how many he gets wrong.


personally I think Gettleman has done a decent job in the short time he's been here, we all knew the O line fix wasn't going to happen over night but he has replaced every one that played on the O line last season and we are now starting to look a whole lot better..be patient with Gettleman he had a hard job to do when he got here and its looking better..
RE: Belichick 12 games in with the Patriots... 3-9  
Jersey55 : 12/4/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 14203472 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
Not saying he's BB, just saying if you want to build a great team you don't give up on the HC based on the current record. You have to look at the job he's doing.

IMO, the team keeps improving despite the 1-7 start. That's the most important thing. I think he's definitely got leadership potential and has shown he can weather difficult times. I think he may turn out to be the guy who could lead us to our next SB championship.



Belichick sucked badly in his first coaching job...
Hard to really evaluate  
JOrthman : 12/4/2018 5:30 pm : link
They brought in a completely new offense and defensive system with over a 50% roster turnover. What made it worse was the beginning of the schedule was a killer. I have not like a lot of his play calling, substitutions and clock management. However, with all that being said, the team has been in all but one game this year and has shown steady improvement.

As bad as he's been, not many coaches come into the league and light it up. As has been mentioned Belicheck sucked in Cleveland and started off slow in NE until turning it all around. I think it would be a chaotic mess to fire him now and turn it all over again. If you think we got it wrong with this group, what gives you confidence it will be any different if we scratch it already.
I'm not sure BB sucked in CLE...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/4/2018 6:09 pm : link
he made the playoffs at least. His record there isn't what I was looking at though. His record his first year in NE is more interesting to me. 3-9 first 12 games in isn't exactly lighting it up.

I don't like looking at Shurmur's results in CLE as a true measure of him as a coach for a couple of very big reasons.

1. It's Cleveland, the place where nobody has success. He was 9-23 there. The record before and after Shurmur was... 9-23.

2. His QB. It was clear that CLE wanted him to come in as an offensive guru to win games. Guess who the available QB's were his two seasons there? Thaddeus Lewis, Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy (a rookie in 2011), and Brandon Weeden (a rookie in 2012). Not exactly the kind of talent you need to win games in the NFL at the position.

3. It was his first shot at being a HC. There is good reason to believe that a well-respected coach in the league can learn from his mistakes and improve.

Lots of BBIers want to discredit him for a variety of reasons. They may ultimately prove to be correct, but for right now there is good reason to hope he turns out to be a very good coach. He has a TON of quality experience working for some of the big and successful names in coaching. Anyone who thinks he isn't highly regarded in coaching circles is fooling themselves.

So far the W/L results aren't in his favor, but looking at the other aspects of his coaching it appears he is doing a good job. The team is playing competitive football, improving, and the team seems to believe in him or at least is not giving up on him. Those elements of coaching are not nearly as important as wins, but they indicate that more wins may be in his future.

He liked Kevin Stefanski..  
Sean : 12/4/2018 6:25 pm : link
but the Vikings denied permission for him to interview here. Iíd like an OC more in sync with PS.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/4/2018 7:16 pm : link
I mean, people were calling to fire the guy after half a season. You just cannot run a franchise like that.

I think some better things are starting to happen here. You can feel a bit of a shift since that SF game. Obviously the Eagles game put a huge fucking dent in that, but we bounced back and put up 30 on a top 5 defense. Yeah, it was Chase Daniel on the other side and not Mitch Trubisky - but the Bears are a tough team and we got a win.

I want to see a strong finish here. I want at least 3 of these last 4. If we can do that, I'll feel better about going into next year with another chance to beef up the trenches and continue to turn over some of this roster.

The OL seems to be stabilizing a little. We are finally running the football the way we should be when defenses are in 2 high which we have had major problems with in the recent past.

Shurmur's biggest flaw so far has been his in-game decision making. With more experience, he can get better there. He will have to in order to be a good HC. But I am willing to give him another year. The only way I'd change my mind on that would be if the team plays really poorly this last quarter of the year and seems to regress.

If we keep competing and win 3 of these games, I think there will be more optimism going forward.

The defense needs help. We're definitely undermanned right now.

Gettleman has a lot more work to do with the personnel. But, this doesn't feel quite as disastrous or hopeless as it did @ 1-7.

I'm still really, really annoyed that we blew the fucking Eagles game. But whatever. Nothing we can do about it.
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