I'll start this off. I'm not ready to throw the towel in on Shurmur yet. After watching the Giants put together more than a handful of really good offensive plays -- including some exciting surprise plays against a really good defense -- I think the Giants have been flashing on Offense the way we expected them to -- albeit rather late in the season. I think the players are playing with real energy for the most part. To pull off an overtime win like yesterday is a test of will power imo.
I keep looking back at Pederson's first season as HC, and he kept making what seemed like bonehead decision after bonehead decision all season his first season -- but you could see flashes of stuff out of his team -- he was really able to put his stamp on the same type of decisions in his second season and make it work.
I am coming to the conclusion that there are a handful of coach killers still on the Giants -- I think some have been shipped out and more still to come. Me I would like to see what Shurmur could do with a team that has his stamp on it -- I think our offense has the chance to be really explosive with him. I think Betcher is also a victim of having a mixed bag of flaws to play with.
The start to the season was brutal schedule wise and I think new coach, new gm, new everything it took some time to get going. I think if we finish with 6 wins this season, that is twice as many as last year and showing improvement.
The offence is starting to click and I would give him 1 more year
BUT - the players have not quit on him. They play hard every week. Even Jack Rabbit is still playing hard(notorius for throttling back). Beckham seems to be trying harder (despite the on-side kick flub). Kind of gives me pause to think Shurmur must go.
Let the season play out. If the players keep playing this hard for him, he will and should get the 2nd season.
IMO, a head coaches greatest skill is getting 100% from all his players and so far, I have not seen any quit on this team.
Not sure many recall Belichick’s second HC job after his Browns’ stint (he did better there than people give him credit for). His first year with the Pats (a year before Brady became the starter after Bledsoe’s injury) he was 5-11
He's got a lot of growing to do in terms of in game decisions. His team also sucks at attention to detail and not beating itself. Those things are not easy to fix when they're already present, but I'm hopeful they'll get it ironed out as the roster and culture continues to ascend.
People really need to understand the major overhaul on the roster. It was massive and there are more changes to come. I believe that this team can be a competitive team quickly with a few key free agent acquisitions and another solid draft.
The PAT stuff, the goaline stuff, the clock management etc.
In a league where the difference between good and great and frankly good and bad is ultra-thin, you can't have the unforced errors.
is this his first year play calling? If so, I'd give him time to grow into it. If not, maybe he should give up play calling duties.
He's not going anywhere anytime soon, but there are changes that can be made. Maybe a new OC?
Despite the record, we've been close in most games, and could easily be in the playoff hunt if things had gone slightly differently. If the OL hadn't been such a shitshow from the beginning, the record would be better. how much of the OL situation is Shurmur's fault vs Gettleman/C Mara?
There has only been one or two games where we were out of it. I'm confident that we'll do better next year. Better may not be playoffs, but better than our record now.
Hiring Shurmur was by far the worst mistake made by Gettleman in his first year...
The offensive line was so bad up until the past few weeks that I kind of give him a pass. But he's made some bizarre in game decisions that have nothing to do with the OL.
I seriously question his in-game management.
I think his capabilities will become much clearer next year, because he's going to be back as HC for sure.
Let's hope both are trending up
I like the way DG and Shurmur aren't afraid to cut bait on a player regardless of draft status or free agent status if they have an attitude issue or are just not that good.
IMO they need to hire a few higher level assistants IE OC to call plays and a more sought after O line coach.
However, if there are big fish out there, I'd not hesitate to pull the plug.
Has not been impressive, but at least the team is giving the effort and special teams have improved...
Patience people.
Three straight runs into the middle of the line from the one with oneo of the worst OL's in the NFL?????
Every time we have an incomplete pass on first down, Shumur runs Barkley into the line on second down. Every time!
Whenever we run misdirection the play looks to have potential. So why not misdirection on every play instead of the entire eleven just standing still at the LOS and trying to overpower the D.
Why didn't we have a cb covering Tarik Cohen particularly late in the game in lieu of Collins?
Why can't the Jints and Eli run an effective screen pass?
I'm not talking about asking Eli to run a zone read or something he is just not capable of doing. I'm talking about relieving the pressure on a very limited OL and getting the ball to one of our playmakers in space. Every other team in the league runs an effective screen. Why can't the Jints?
Etc.
You cannot do what the Jets just did. Firing a Coach that picks a rookie QB after year 1 is crazy, but Bowles has sucked for so long it needs to be done, and now Darnold's development is stunted because he needs to learn a new offense year 2.
Sick of losing to our divisional opponents and we will never go anywhere if we don't figure out a way to beet the teams in our own division.
You can tell he still reads what people say about him in the papers/press. Not too sure what to make of that to be honest.
There are a lot of head scratchers but you can’t fire the guy.
He needs at least 2 years.
They just beat a team they had no right to beat in an already dead season. Shows the team still believes in him and are fighting for him. That's important for a new coach.
with McAdoodle. I know he is a new coach, but they could have quit after going 1-7. Yes they have beaten 3 backup QB's, one a 3rd stringer making his second NFL start...
but they haven't quit, give him credit for that much.
They aren't pretty, they are playing for the guy though.
We'll find out more about him in the future.
I was a fan of the Shurmur hire and so far, so good as far as he's concerned. I have more issues with Gettleman, who's had some obvious misses, but he's also hit a couple out of the park, and I always say that a GM needs to be judged on how many he gets right, not how many he gets wrong.
Let the coach focus on his head coaching duties.
Not sure many recall Belichick’s second HC job after his Browns’ stint (he did better there than people give him credit for). His first year with the Pats (a year before Brady became the starter after Bledsoe’s injury) he was 5-11
That’s right and remember They wanted to hang Parcells and his 3-12-1 inaugural season and replace him with Shnellinburger .... I say give Shurmer a chance .....
Purely as an offensive football coach, he looks like the goods. And a Head Coach (like Zimmer did) could force him to stick to the run.
IMO, the team keeps improving despite the 1-7 start. That's the most important thing. I think he's definitely got leadership potential and has shown he can weather difficult times. I think he may turn out to be the guy who could lead us to our next SB championship.
Three straight runs into the middle of the line from the one with oneo of the worst OL's in the NFL?????
Every time we have an incomplete pass on first down, Shumur runs Barkley into the line on second down. Every time!
Whenever we run misdirection the play looks to have potential. So why not misdirection on every play instead of the entire eleven just standing still at the LOS and trying to overpower the D.
Why didn't we have a cb covering Tarik Cohen particularly late in the game in lieu of Collins?
Why can't the Jints and Eli run an effective screen pass?
I'm not talking about asking Eli to run a zone read or something he is just not capable of doing. I'm talking about relieving the pressure on a very limited OL and getting the ball to one of our playmakers in space. Every other team in the league runs an effective screen. Why can't the Jints?
Etc.
That wheel route play to Cohen worked twice in fact,
the previous time I believe Grant was in coverage...
I am not impressed with Grant either, I can see why
he was an UDFA, plays hard, but his skill level is lacking.
No real good matchup with someone as quick as Cohen.
The play on Collins was a 4th down play too, that matchup was terrible.
I don't think Eli is going to suddenly develop this skill in year 15.
I'm ok with Shurmur, I think he follows the Reid model of blocking criticism and that will make his players appreciate him.
Concerned with his time mgmt skills, but I think he coaches by feel, sometimes that works for you sometimes it doesnt. We'll have to see how that works for the Giants.
Giants had gut wrenching loss against divisional foe last week
whatever playoff hopes disappeared with eagles loss
and to come back and beat a decent Chicago team
offense holding it's own against one of best defenses in the league
a win like this is impressive
Because he seems to have competence and excellence in the shiney fancy aspects of the game ..which rest upon the dual pillars of tough D and running.
My best guesses are these: A- for on-field effort; C- for execution (though improving); and low B for press conferences. I was just forced to read the Belichick bio, and from that it's clear he's A/A+ for player effort, A+ for player execution; D for press conferences (who cares?); A+ for evaluating and handling players and coaches.
Unless they somehow lose all their remaining 4 games, he will and should be back next year.
Did you mean backup players put into starting roles like Pulley who we will hopefully look to replace/upgrade once the season is over?
If he will continue calling plays, I think he needs to have someone else on staff who is managing the clock and in his hear with how/when they will use timeouts. It seems he is so focused on play calling that he loses sight of the overall game strategy. He also needs to get better in taking what is there vs. running what he likes. That seemed much improved yesterday.
Not time to give up yet, but would like to see if he improves as the year goes on.
On the negative side, he has zero clock management skills. Unless he takes up Madden in the offseason, I don't see that getting better. Andy Reid is an excellent coach that has this blindspot as well, so it's not the end all but it's something that will be a problem. He should really consider bringing in a specialist to help him in this area. Playcalling and scheme is meh. As fans we tend to put too much blame on coaching when the players don't execute but that Eagle game last week was as bad as it gets. All coaches have bad games and 3/4 of a season with a bad OL isn't really a good sample size to make this judgement though.
His game management has been head scratching at times, but this as an area that can be improved.
What I read on this forum often, is typical knee-jerk reaction to the disappointment of a loss, calling for the firing of the head coach.
I also agree with the OP that Betcher was dealt a poor hand talent wise. I'd like to see what he can do with better talent, before passing judgment.
This is not unique to Shurmur, but generally speaking coaches seem to be ultra conservative for no reason. For instance, and i think this is one reason why McCarthy got fired, I think there was a play against the Seahwaks where they had a 60% chance of converting a 4th and 2. Converting would have given the Packers a 50 something % chance of winning, punting was 26% and failing to convert was like 20%. They punted and lost.
The coaches who have a better grasp on this concept are the ones who do well. It doesn't matter with a shitty team, but if you have two evenly matched teams, that difference in philosophy can make a real difference.
Shurmur got shit for going for 2 down 8, and while yes, statistically that was correct, he deservedly should get shit because he fails to understand the analytics concept in other situations that dont invovle scoring plays.
Advise pull a Landry and dress up - keep quiet.
We were an unwatchable mess and now there is a sense of optimism. Shurmer definitely gets some credit for that.
I think some of the critiques are warranted but correctable while others may be a bit unfounded or overstated. Plus, there’s a good possibility that shurmur is coaching more with the long view in my mind. Who knows for sure. What I do know is the team is playing its best ball since December 2016. But they need to keep it up. Let’s be honest the first half schedule was brutally difficult. It they could somehow win 3-4 I think it would bode well for the future. Can they get 3 wins from this list of games?
@ skins
Home vs Titans
@ Colts
Home vs dallas
This would bother some but 7-9 would make me feel much better about 2019.
Need to see more. These next four games will tell a lot.
The playcalling is the least of our worries. Some of you live to second guess every single playcall that doesn’t work.
The guy is a brilliant playcaller based on history. He didn’t forget how to run and offense and judging by this season’s progression seems to be getting this offense into a better place.
Worry about shurmus’s personnel decisions and overall team building. That right there is the most understated aspect of coaching in my view.
That’s unfair and impossible to say for sure. Where would Sean Payton be without Drew Brees?
Simple question? Is this team getting better? Do you see progress?
Quote:
if barkley doesn't do barkley things, this team has 1 maybe 2 wins this year
That’s unfair and impossible to say for sure. Where would Sean Payton be without Drew Brees?
Simple question? Is this team getting better? Do you see progress?
I dont think I'd go so far as to say it's unfair. Barkley has insane production. It wouldn't be sound analysis if we didnt acknowledge that the team would be significantly less effective without that in the lineup. All of us can think of at least two occasions where Barkley made a singular play that put them in position to win when they were looking at defeat.
The straw that broke the camel's back for me was his petty act last week with the Rosas-IVs-Beckham thing. It was a reflection of a man with very think skin doing a job that requires the exact opposite.
I am more disappointed in the entire organization then just Shurmur. The handling of Eli Manning's end of his career has been butchered. Getting rid of Coughlin and keeping Reese was as stupid a decision by management as I have ever seen from the Giants. Keeping Coughlin as GM and firing Reese was an obviously needed move, but they blew it. Now we have Gettleman and Shurmur, is anyone thrilled over these guys, anyone think it's just more of the same old crap, I know that is what I fear.
I think he cost us the Eagles game and there have been some really stupid mistakes, but I could see this continuing to get better with a little more time. If we win 2-3 of the last 4 and are competitive all the way through, I think he should be back next year.
I expected better - but if we finish strong, I'll be more willing to give it time. The roster still needs a lot of help. The talent level out on the field right now isn't exactly playoff-caliber and we made "sellers" trades that temporarily weakened it further.
The team is still playing hard for him so I'm okay with staying the course.
What happens over the last quarter of the season will definitely shift my opinion one way or the other.
TommytheElephant : 9:16 am : link : reply
Barkley got a lot of touches this week so I take that as an adjustment from last week.
He should have learned from his mistakes the first time around with the Browns....his game plans are questionable, and clock management is a head scratcher....
on the other hand, who would have thought a team would be in position to have to on sides kick against us this year? probably didn't even have defending an on sides kick in the playbook : )
He isn’t Ben McAd’oh arrogant, but still the same he seems like a fool on game day with his decisions and clock management. When I listen to his pressers he seems like he isn’t particularly quick, which isn’t a flaw you can hide as an NFL head coach. His offensive game plans and schemes don’t seem like they’re setting any new trends in the NFL or vexing D cos. I guess he’s kept the locker room together and the players are playing hard but at the end of the day that’s only going to last for so long on a losing team. NFL teams need a CEO type like TC or Tuna or Holmgren maybe, or they need a wiz kid type like McVay or even Pederson. I guess Shurmur might wind up like a Mike Zimmer type of guy who can run one side of the ball and delegate the other. I don’t know. But he doesn’t seem like he’s particularly distinguished as a leader.
I was a fan of the Shurmur hire and so far, so good as far as he's concerned. I have more issues with Gettleman, who's had some obvious misses, but he's also hit a couple out of the park, and I always say that a GM needs to be judged on how many he gets right, not how many he gets wrong.
personally I think Gettleman has done a decent job in the short time he's been here, we all knew the O line fix wasn't going to happen over night but he has replaced every one that played on the O line last season and we are now starting to look a whole lot better..be patient with Gettleman he had a hard job to do when he got here and its looking better..
IMO, the team keeps improving despite the 1-7 start. That's the most important thing. I think he's definitely got leadership potential and has shown he can weather difficult times. I think he may turn out to be the guy who could lead us to our next SB championship.
Belichick sucked badly in his first coaching job...
As bad as he's been, not many coaches come into the league and light it up. As has been mentioned Belicheck sucked in Cleveland and started off slow in NE until turning it all around. I think it would be a chaotic mess to fire him now and turn it all over again. If you think we got it wrong with this group, what gives you confidence it will be any different if we scratch it already.
I don't like looking at Shurmur's results in CLE as a true measure of him as a coach for a couple of very big reasons.
1. It's Cleveland, the place where nobody has success. He was 9-23 there. The record before and after Shurmur was... 9-23.
2. His QB. It was clear that CLE wanted him to come in as an offensive guru to win games. Guess who the available QB's were his two seasons there? Thaddeus Lewis, Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy (a rookie in 2011), and Brandon Weeden (a rookie in 2012). Not exactly the kind of talent you need to win games in the NFL at the position.
3. It was his first shot at being a HC. There is good reason to believe that a well-respected coach in the league can learn from his mistakes and improve.
Lots of BBIers want to discredit him for a variety of reasons. They may ultimately prove to be correct, but for right now there is good reason to hope he turns out to be a very good coach. He has a TON of quality experience working for some of the big and successful names in coaching. Anyone who thinks he isn't highly regarded in coaching circles is fooling themselves.
So far the W/L results aren't in his favor, but looking at the other aspects of his coaching it appears he is doing a good job. The team is playing competitive football, improving, and the team seems to believe in him or at least is not giving up on him. Those elements of coaching are not nearly as important as wins, but they indicate that more wins may be in his future.
I think some better things are starting to happen here. You can feel a bit of a shift since that SF game. Obviously the Eagles game put a huge fucking dent in that, but we bounced back and put up 30 on a top 5 defense. Yeah, it was Chase Daniel on the other side and not Mitch Trubisky - but the Bears are a tough team and we got a win.
I want to see a strong finish here. I want at least 3 of these last 4. If we can do that, I'll feel better about going into next year with another chance to beef up the trenches and continue to turn over some of this roster.
The OL seems to be stabilizing a little. We are finally running the football the way we should be when defenses are in 2 high which we have had major problems with in the recent past.
Shurmur's biggest flaw so far has been his in-game decision making. With more experience, he can get better there. He will have to in order to be a good HC. But I am willing to give him another year. The only way I'd change my mind on that would be if the team plays really poorly this last quarter of the year and seems to regress.
If we keep competing and win 3 of these games, I think there will be more optimism going forward.
The defense needs help. We're definitely undermanned right now.
Gettleman has a lot more work to do with the personnel. But, this doesn't feel quite as disastrous or hopeless as it did @ 1-7.
I'm still really, really annoyed that we blew the fucking Eagles game. But whatever. Nothing we can do about it.