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Watched End of Giant-Bears Game With Ex Giant Brian Williams

FatMan in Charlotte : 12/3/2018 6:00 pm
Very interesting conversation. Brian Williams was a DB on the Giants team in 2011. He was released mid-season and was mainly a special teams player, but he had a very long and solid career in the NFL before coming to the Giants, mainly with the Vikes and Jags. I was in the Charlotte airport getting ready to go to the UK - he saw I was rooting for the team, he introduced himself and we talked for about an hour.

He had lots of interesting comments:
- Not a fan of the Giants. Didn't like the way the team handled his released, but he did say that they gave him a Super Bowl ring and he will always remember that.
- Not a fan of Perry Fewell. Said he was really poor at communicating gameplans, made fun of the way he would draw diagrams and felt he disliked him from the time he spurned Wake Forest for NC State while Jim Caldwell was HC at Wake. Said Caldwell and Fewell were close.

He felt that Fewell never really looked at him as an option to play on the D.

- Said the defensive players were divided on Eli. Tuck and Osi were Eli guys, but said it was frustrating that he'd throw a few balls a game that made guys shake their heads.
- Said the practices were a mess. He thought they were pretty bad in Jax his final year there, but he said in NY it was much worse. Not a whole lot of positive comments about the prep.
- Said Randy Moss was the best teammate he had
- Intimated that JPP wasn't the shapest knife in the drawer
- Thinks Barkley is amazing. Reminds him of AP in many ways
- Best athlete he ever played with - Matt Jones
- Always felt like the Giants FO was a mess. Didn't care too much 'for Jerry Reese. Basically said out of the team he played for, the Giants were his least favorite.
- Liked Mike Tice but said he was an example of a coordinator who was over his head as a HC.
- Tore his ACL when he was 30 and playing in Atlanta. Said it was a tough injury to come back from, and he never really had the same aggression after that.

Really good conversation. I came away with the impression that he is a guy who was able to take his success on the field and do some things off the field. He's still quite tight with many players and he said he still bleeds purple. We were talking about the officiating and he said it is pure crap and has been for some time.

Very enlightening to get the fairly anti-Giants take, similar to what we heard on the board from Bryan Kehl.
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I think some of it is sour grapes  
JonC : 12/4/2018 10:33 am : link
but I'd heard the same about Fewell many times from players and the beat, and shared it here at the time. Despite winning the SB, many felt it was in spite of PF and that he was in over his head as DC.
regarding the 2011 season  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 10:38 am : link
That team was a scandalously blown call away (the Cruz "giving himself up" play against the Cardinals) from going 8-8 and missing the playoffs.
Fine, since I'm apparently the only one with a Delorean  
jcn56 : 12/4/2018 10:58 am : link
around here, here's a link to the Kehl thread.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=523290&show_all=1 - ( New Window )
ColHowPepper  
arniefez : 12/4/2018 11:02 am : link
Fewell went all the way back to Jacksonville with Coughlin. It's almost impossible to be a head coach in the NFL for as long as Tom Coughlin was and not have some kind of a coaching tree or league legacy. But Coughlin managed to pull that off. His staff was always filled with coaches that never got promoted anywhere in the league or were out of the league once the owners forced Coughlin to fire them except Spags who was only with the Giants for a very short time and was really a Jim Johnson Andy Reid guy.
Kehl never answered any of my questions :(  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 11:06 am : link
.
RE: regarding the 2011 season  
RinR : 12/4/2018 11:08 am : link
In comment 14205109 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
That team was a scandalously blown call away (the Cruz "giving himself up" play against the Cardinals) from going 8-8 and missing the playoffs.


Meh. As stated earlier, every team has its share of fortunate calls, bounces, etc go there way in Super Bowl winning seasons. Luck plays some part but a very small part.
No specific comments on TC, Fatman?  
Racer : 12/4/2018 11:08 am : link
?
but that call wasn't even about winning a Super Bowl  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 11:10 am : link
It was about merely making the playoffs. How many title teams were that close to going home after the regular season?

2011 was a marvelous fluke that is highly unlikely to ever be duplicated by anyone.
I posted last week that someone I know very well who is a close friend  
arniefez : 12/4/2018 11:10 am : link
of Blake Bortles father told me that Bortles father told him that Coughlin stopped talking to Bortles last year. Would walk right by him and not acknowledge his existence or return a good morning or a good night. Normally it would be cool story bro. But it immediately made me think of the legendary BBI Kehl thread thread. Thanks for the link.
The 2011 Giants  
arniefez : 12/4/2018 11:13 am : link
played like a championship team from the 2nd half of the Jet game until they won the Super Bowl. Until the Victor Cruz play in the Jet game they played like every Giant team since then.
RE: but that call wasn't even about winning a Super Bowl  
RinR : 12/4/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 14205177 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
It was about merely making the playoffs. How many title teams were that close to going home after the regular season?

2011 was a marvelous fluke that is highly unlikely to ever be duplicated by anyone.


And yet one week later Cruz slips in the redzone and Eli's throws a pick six that seals the game for the Seahawks. Score a touchdown there and they still finish 9 - 7.
RE: but that call wasn't even about winning a Super Bowl  
Giantology : 12/4/2018 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14205177 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
It was about merely making the playoffs. How many title teams were that close to going home after the regular season?

2011 was a marvelous fluke that is highly unlikely to ever be duplicated by anyone.


Greg, if you actually go through every team's championship season, you will find multiple plays, lucky bounces, bad penalties or even lack of penalties called that have assisted teams on there way to a championship. It is not the Giants who are the only team to benefit from these on the way to a championship.

I mean, if JPP doesn't block that field goal in Dallas, the Victor Cruz play doesn't even matter either.
RE: I posted last week that someone I know very well who is a close friend  
ColHowPepper : 12/4/2018 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14205178 arniefez said:
Quote:
Would walk right by him and not acknowledge his existence or return a good morning or a good night. Normally it would be cool story bro. But it immediately made me think of the legendary BBI Kehl thread thread.
Hey, he's in good company, just ask John.

And, wtf with the Kehl thread. Missed that altogether, must have been one of those stretches when I just didn't check in for days. Was he BK, or was it understood to be a BBI mole?
RE: RE: but that call wasn't even about winning a Super Bowl  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14205282 Giantology said:
Quote:
Greg, if you actually go through every team's championship season, you will find multiple plays, lucky bounces, bad penalties or even lack of penalties called that have assisted teams on there way to a championship. It is not the Giants who are the only team to benefit from these on the way to a championship.

I mean, if JPP doesn't block that field goal in Dallas, the Victor Cruz play doesn't even matter either.


Why is this so hard to grasp? Yes, championships always involve some luck. None of them other than 2011 that I can think of involve a lot of luck simply to even make the playoffs.
ColHowPepper, it was really Kehl  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 12:14 pm : link
.
the Kehl thread was amazing  
Matt in SGS : 12/4/2018 12:30 pm : link
he gave some really good insights. One of the interesting things he kept mentioning was how much the GM (Reese) and coach (Coughlin) didn't see eye to eye on the talent they brought in to fit the proper schemes they are running. This has been an age old battle across many years and started the trend for a while of coaches as GMs (Parcells shopping for groceries when you cook the meal thing in New England). The Giants still employ the variation of the George Young hierarchy (The GM picks the players, the coach coaches the players, and the players play).

He made this comment in one of his long responses

Quote:
PS - want to know why Seattle got so good all of a sudden? They broke from NFL tradition, and their scouts and GM went to the coaches to ask them who to draft and sign...to fit their scheme. Unlike NY, they never draft a guy who doesn't fit their scheme.


Ultimately, Kehl was proven right. The Giants draft picks not only had talent issues, they didn't even fit the schemes Coughlin or Fewell/Spags were running. Over years and years that disconnect helped lead to the implosion that we have seen that only now Gettleman is starting to dig out.

It also speaks to the criticality that Gettleman and Abrams are clear on the types of players will fit what Shurmur and Bettcher want to run.
RE: ColHowPepper, it was really Kehl  
ColHowPepper : 12/4/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14205301 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.
Thanks, Greg. I was wondering why Eric said at the top, 'well played, sir', as if the poster was one of BBI's own, and the banter with FMiC. Guess I'll have to carve out some hours for reading!
Matt, Sintim was the clearest example of that  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 1:03 pm : link
I was as big a Clint Sintim fan as there was for obvious reasons, and I was bewildered as to why they drafted him since he didn't fit Fewell's defense at all. It made absolutely no sense. The thing that Sintim did really well in college was rushing the passer as a 3-4 LB, so they drafted him to be a 4-3 SAM???

There still doesn't seem to be much of a coherent personnel philosophy, which is a big reason why I'm not terribly optimistic about the future.
RE: RE: ColHowPepper, it was really Kehl  
ron mexico : 12/4/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14205360 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14205301 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


.

Thanks, Greg. I was wondering why Eric said at the top, 'well played, sir', as if the poster was one of BBI's own, and the banter with FMiC. Guess I'll have to carve out some hours for reading!


That thread was the 2nd time he showed up and posted photo proof because a lot of posters didn't believe it was him on the first thread.

RE: the Kehl thread was amazing  
montanagiant : 12/4/2018 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14205331 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
he gave some really good insights. One of the interesting things he kept mentioning was how much the GM (Reese) and coach (Coughlin) didn't see eye to eye on the talent they brought in to fit the proper schemes they are running. This has been an age old battle across many years and started the trend for a while of coaches as GMs (Parcells shopping for groceries when you cook the meal thing in New England). The Giants still employ the variation of the George Young hierarchy (The GM picks the players, the coach coaches the players, and the players play).

He made this comment in one of his long responses



Quote:


PS - want to know why Seattle got so good all of a sudden? They broke from NFL tradition, and their scouts and GM went to the coaches to ask them who to draft and sign...to fit their scheme. Unlike NY, they never draft a guy who doesn't fit their scheme.



Ultimately, Kehl was proven right. The Giants draft picks not only had talent issues, they didn't even fit the schemes Coughlin or Fewell/Spags were running. Over years and years that disconnect helped lead to the implosion that we have seen that only now Gettleman is starting to dig out.

It also speaks to the criticality that Gettleman and Abrams are clear on the types of players will fit what Shurmur and Bettcher want to run.

This post by Dorgon in the Kehl linked thread still makes me crack up 3 years later
Quote:
You got
dorgan : 10/22/2015 7:27 pm : link
all your fingers on both hands?

You're hired!
Kehl's comments support my concerns about our front office  
Go Terps : 12/4/2018 2:00 pm : link
Their methodology departs quite a bit from observed best practices.
RE: Kehl's comments support my concerns about our front office  
Matt in SGS : 12/4/2018 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14205435 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Their methodology departs quite a bit from observed best practices.


Terps, to be fair, he was talking about it back in 2015. And the particulars were Reese and Coughlin. They are gone. The question is now if Gettleman is on the same page as Shurmur and Bettcher. Based on this first draft, the signs are positive. Granted Barkley can play for anyone, but Hernandez, Carter, and Hill are all picks to play a scheme. Even Beal, who we never got to see play, fits the tall corners that Gettleman likes. Jury is out on Lauletta, but Shurmur is supposed to be a guy who can groom QBs in his system.

By the time Kehl came, the rift between Coughlin, Reese and that clown Ross were causing cracks everywhere.
It also speaks to the criticality that Gettleman and Abrams are clear  
arniefez : 12/4/2018 2:44 pm : link
on the types of players will fit what Shurmur and Bettcher want to run.

Weren't Abrams to small degree and Gettleman to a major degree part of the front office then? That doesn't sound like problem solved to me.
RE: It also speaks to the criticality that Gettleman and Abrams are clear  
Matt in SGS : 12/4/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14205486 arniefez said:
Quote:
on the types of players will fit what Shurmur and Bettcher want to run.

Weren't Abrams to small degree and Gettleman to a major degree part of the front office then? That doesn't sound like problem solved to me.


Actually, you raise a good point. Scouts are paid to scout players. They do their reports on everyone. There are for sure certain guys who the big boys in the front office will have an interest in and they will show up at games specifically to scout in person (ie- Gettleman going to West Virginia to see Grier in person).

But it's up to the GM to actually pick the player that they feel will fit their scheme. Gettleman wasn't selecting anyone, that job fell to Reese, using Ross' input. Gettleman's job with the Giants was as Sr. Pro Personnel Analyst. Meaning he was responsible for free agents and guys cut. Think guys like Madison Hedgecock and Dominik Hixon being picked up and fitting in. Kevin Boothe. That was Gettleman.

Ross was so bad at his job it was insane. It's no wonder one of Gettleman's first moves was to fire him last year.
Very interesting about Eli and how the team felt about him. I  
Blue21 : 12/4/2018 3:52 pm : link
believe him. I've always wondered how the defense felt about all his interceptions and being put in tough spots. It probably wasn't personal but frustrating with all these picks and fumbles.
and it was with quite some amazement here  
ColHowPepper : 12/4/2018 4:42 pm : link
when Reese hired Ross, who had hardly distinguished himself in two prior stops
No..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/4/2018 4:53 pm : link
and I didn't press him on it:

Quote:
No specific comments on TC, Fatman?
Racer : 11:08 am : link : reply
?


He didn't get to Jax until after TC and he really didn't offer up an opinion about him
FMIc  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 5:51 pm : link
The only thing that doesn’t make sense what Williams said was about Eli. I mean to each their own... but how can the defense bitch about him when he bailed their asses out time and time again in 2011?

I mean if there was a year not to bash Eli...
dep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/4/2018 6:03 pm : link
I think Williams only was with the Giants until October. Eli was certainly up and down in the early to mid part of the season.

He wasn't really ragging on him as much as he was saying eli was a guy they relied on, but he made some head-scratching throws
RE: dep..  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14205809 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I think Williams only was with the Giants until October. Eli was certainly up and down in the early to mid part of the season.

He wasn't really ragging on him as much as he was saying eli was a guy they relied on, but he made some head-scratching throws


Gotcha. That makes sense. Eli’s big games came probably after he was gone.
Seems possible that there was a communication issue...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/4/2018 7:57 pm : link
he likely didn't get a lot of face time - that seems to be one of his complaints. He didn't think the practices were as well run as other places. Not a surprise that a player who was treated as an afterthought might not have been given more explicit instructions on what to do during defensive drills.

Furthermore, not really a surprise that a player standing around unimpressed likely doesn't impress coaches and is a mid-season cut.

Thanks for sharing - nice story.
There was one season  
Les in TO : 12/4/2018 8:23 pm : link
Under Fewell where the D gave up something like 6 uncontested passing touchdowns where the receiver was not even covered due to communication breakdowns . It’s shocking that he was able to rally the D to play lights out from the jets game onwards in 2011
apparently I think more highly of the 2011 team  
Banks : 12/4/2018 10:13 pm : link
That year, as much as any other in the parity era, any team could beat you any given sunday. I don't think there was a dominant team in the league. All the "elite" teams had major flaws. Pats were second worst defense in the NFL with no run game. The niners didn't have an offense. The pack were favorites with a 15-1 record, but they had the worst defense in the NFL. We played them and lost on the final kick with some biased reffing along the way.
I didn't think the niners or pats were the better team when we played during the regular season and was not surprised when we won in the post season.
Yea, we could have been 8-8, we also could have been 12-4. Some bad breaks in the pack, eagles, and seahawk losses. Hell, even the first skins game. The only team I didn't want to face was the saints. Thankfully a flukey win by the niners spared us that fate
Antrel Rolle raved about Perry Fewell’s gameplan for 2011 playoffs  
Jon C. in MD : 12/4/2018 11:04 pm : link
Great read from SI MMQB a few weeks back on how the giants beat Rodgers and Brady in 2011.
Link - ( New Window )
One quote from that article  
Jon C. in MD : 12/4/2018 11:06 pm : link
We were in sync and it just looked so good. We had the field covered, so there was nowhere for Aaron to go. Our defensive coordinator, Perry Fewell, believed in us, trusted us. We allowed him to call anything in the world that he wanted to call. When he was allowed to be creative, he was one of the best defensive coordinators I’ve ever been around. He had a perfect game plan for Atlanta, San Francisco, Green Bay and New England. He had the perfect plan for all of them. And they were huge game plans. Oh my God. The most lengthy game plans I’ve ever been a part of.
Nothing against you, Jon C,  
Go Terps : 12/4/2018 11:26 pm : link
but Antrell Rolle was a clown. That was pretty clear publicly, and that was corroborated for me by someone that would know. He (and JPP) were, among other things, huge shitheads to Amukamara.

If Rolle vouched for Fewell I don't take that as a mark in Fewell's favor.
I think one of the real positives  
English Alaister : 12/5/2018 5:45 am : link
Of the DG / PS regime is they are clearly on the same page. Remember Bettcher getting to lecture the scouts on what he is wanting in a player?

Early days but if these guys can stay on the same page and take it forward together then we will be significantly better off.
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