listening to Sirius/XM NFL radio on way home from work yesterday - Moving the Chains with Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan.
They were talking about the Firing of McCarthy and Kirwan said Rodgers has become a piece of work in Green Bay and then said "I will leave it at that".
It was a very interesting comment especially now that Rodgers has been paid the money and his play has not been good. Now, if that was no. 10, man, we'd be hearing it from the beat writers and so forth.
But I see the same situation in Green Bay that I have in New York. The Packers have not built or given Rodgers help. Based purely on observation, the Packers should be scoring 30 pts a game but they are not. So for those who may watch Green Bay more than I do...what's the issue there?
There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, I’m more than happy to suffer through the shit that’s happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.
For THIS fan, it’s a no-brainer
Hence a lot of the points above because if Eli did the same people such as yourself would be the 1st to call him out...and the Giants failure has been far worse...
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In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:
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I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..
As I’ve said since 2011, Rodgers would have zero titles if not for our 2010 31-10 meltdown in the Philly game.
Again, I give two shitz whether they are better QBs. Give me my titles, angst and all
That's my thoughts as well. The bottom line is each team sets out with the goal of winning a Super Bowl championship. And while everyone respects talent and enjoys aspects of exciting games played, championships is ultimately how they should be judged.
So I guess you'll take Jeff Hostetler and Nick Foles over Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.
It depends on the discussion. If we are simply trying to say which was more skilled throughout his career, then no. But if you are asking if I would give up the Super Bowl the Giants won with Hoss in order to have had either of those guys then that would be hard to do. Kind of like taking points off the board when a coach can choose to accept a penalty on a FG in order for the chance at a TD. It's a risky move. Of course this is all hypothetical but as good as those guys were there are no guarantees the Giants ever get that second one if either of those two replace Hoss.
Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?
Along those lines I bet most great skilled QB's who never won a ring would trade some of their stats for a ring or two if they could. That is the goal they all strive for their entire careers.
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
Surprised, I don't think I ever heard a fan say he would trade in one of our Super Bowl wins before this.
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Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
Surprised, I don't think I ever heard a fan say he would trade in one of our Super Bowl wins before this.
They would have won 4 with Marino.
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course of his career than Eli...
lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses
that statement doesn’t put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light
Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies? Eddie Lacy had a couple 1100 yard seasons before he got fat. When he started out he still had Greg Jennings and Donald Driver putting up 1000 yards seasons. Ryan Grant had 1200 yards rushing in AR's first two years as starter. You don't have a lot of credibility in your argument when you dismiss that kind of production...
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...
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Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...
By whom? Idiots at ESPN and talk radio?
There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, I’m more than happy to suffer through the shit that’s happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.
For THIS fan, it’s a no-brainer
I respect this but, man, it's been tough to go through the last 5-6 years watching Aaron Rodgers and others have yearly playoff games while the Giants have been out of it by mid November and winning meaningless games against backup QBs.
I loved the end result of 2011 and I think Eli had his truly elite season that year but while it's always great to win a SB, it directly set up these last 6 years of crappy football when management thought they could keep pushing for another title with the same cast.
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We recognize that Aaron Rodgers, career-wise, is the better QB, probably top 5 all-time.
There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, I’m more than happy to suffer through the shit that’s happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.
For THIS fan, it’s a no-brainer
I respect this but, man, it's been tough to go through the last 5-6 years watching Aaron Rodgers and others have yearly playoff games while the Giants have been out of it by mid November and winning meaningless games against backup QBs.
I loved the end result of 2011 and I think Eli had his truly elite season that year but while it's always great to win a SB, it directly set up these last 6 years of crappy football when management thought they could keep pushing for another title with the same cast.
Of course it’s tough going through this
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In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:
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Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?
Uh, yes. A million times over.
This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...
By whom? Idiots at ESPN and talk radio?
Maybe you slept through the years of Brady vs Manning debates by everyone from the drunk at the corner bar to NFL execs...
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In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:
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course of his career than Eli...
lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses
that statement doesn’t put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light
Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies?
Yes they are.
Put them on Tennessee and you would have no idea who they were.
Eli and Rodgers. There is no comparison. Eli isn’t close. He doesn’t do anything better and in most areas is far behind Rodgers. It’s like comparing Jarvis Landry to Jerry Rice. It’s a different league.
Rodgers is an all time great.
Eli has been good at times but inconsistent and limited. He has 2 SBs. You don’t take him over Rodgers because his team won 1 more SB. That’s crazy talk.
I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.
Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."
So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.
Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.
The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.
Well said
Sports are funny. Nothing is black and white.
And no Barkley or tiki in that backfield. And those defenses on the whole were worse than what Giants have had over last decade.
As usual, certain members of the pro Eli mob thinks they can discredit the entire Giants org in propping him up. No surprise there.
the original premise is fine. Arod is a dick. Turning this into an opportunity to compare Eli and him and justify Eli not being successful by pointing out Arod is where this thread went bad.
Davante Adams is a flat out stud.
And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasn’t been nearly as good as Cobb either.
I mean Greg Jennings was a machine for Rodgers when he get the job.
Davante Adams is a flat out stud.
And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasn’t been nearly as good as Cobb either.
I doubt either Greg Jennings or Davante Adams have anywhere near the success they have had with Eli. See GJ after he left Minny. And I feel comfortable arguing that SS would be a better WR with Rodgers. I like Eli as a person much better than Rodgers. Eli is my favorite Giant ever. But Eli is not Rodgers and never will be. And it's not close.
But to say he has one good skilled player is just not true.
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Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies.
Davante Adams is a flat out stud.
And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasn’t been nearly as good as Cobb either.
I doubt either Greg Jennings or Davante Adams have anywhere near the success they have had with Eli. See GJ after he left Minny. And I feel comfortable arguing that SS would be a better WR with Rodgers. I like Eli as a person much better than Rodgers. Eli is my favorite Giant ever. But Eli is not Rodgers and never will be. And it's not close.
After he left GB of course.
And yes, putting Shepard on GB and he has a big jump in production.
As someone else said, I'd put Jordy Nelson above these people and Odell way above everybody.
All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.
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Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies
All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.
Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but I’d be wasting my breath.
As someone else said, I'd put Jordy Nelson above these people and Odell way above everybody.
The problem is Nicks and Cruz has 2 1/2 peak years then they really bottomed out. So we have no clue how great they could have unfortunately. Together, they were lethal and unstoppable.
One thing to remember Adams is only 26 after this year. He’s a monster.
Yes, Rodgers is more talented than Eli. He’s more talented than pretty much every single QB out there. But Eli is tougher, classier and much more resilient. He’s also a better leader. He embodies the spirit of the Giants too. Give me an Eli Manning and his 2SBMVPS that were won btw by beating Favre AND Rodgers in Lambeau. He’s not as flashy nor as talented, but he’s a hell of a lot tougher and so in my mind, better.
Wait, you wrote this with a straight face?
Eli is tougher? What exactly is this based on?
In 14 years as starter, Eli has been sacked 400X. In 11 years as starter, Rodgers has been sacked 398X. Rodgers has "led" the league in being sacked twice, and each of those year he was sacked 50X+. He's ben sacked over 30X in eight years. Eli has been sacked over 30X just four times in his career.
Rodgers hangs in the pocket as well as anyone we've ever seen (Roeth is very similar). He is willing to wait as long as possible to make a play. Yet, he still throws few interceptions and has a great completion percentage. He's not dropping into the fetal position when the rush is coming. He doesn't feel the ghosts. He doesn't feebly throw the ball away to avoid sacks.
So how the hell is that not a sign of toughness? How the hell can you conclude that Eli is somehow tougher?
i personally think adams is the result of no other better looks elsewhere. i think peak nicks was far better. he had to share balls in the giants o.
arguing about the o line in recent years is one think, saying in his career rodgers has had better skill talent is total bunk.
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In comment 14205784 dep026 said:
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Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies
All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.
Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but I’d be wasting my breath.
By all means do.
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In comment 14205817 Default said:
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In comment 14205784 dep026 said:
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Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies
All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.
Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but I’d be wasting my breath.
By all means do.
I am not discrediting our players... what I am saying is davante Adams is a really really good football player.
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Toughness and resiliency trumping talent.
Yes, Rodgers is more talented than Eli. He’s more talented than pretty much every single QB out there. But Eli is tougher, classier and much more resilient. He’s also a better leader. He embodies the spirit of the Giants too. Give me an Eli Manning and his 2SBMVPS that were won btw by beating Favre AND Rodgers in Lambeau. He’s not as flashy nor as talented, but he’s a hell of a lot tougher and so in my mind, better.
Wait, you wrote this with a straight face?
Eli is tougher? What exactly is this based on?
In 14 years as starter, Eli has been sacked 400X. In 11 years as starter, Rodgers has been sacked 398X. Rodgers has "led" the league in being sacked twice, and each of those year he was sacked 50X+. He's ben sacked over 30X in eight years. Eli has been sacked over 30X just four times in his career.
Rodgers hangs in the pocket as well as anyone we've ever seen (Roeth is very similar). He is willing to wait as long as possible to make a play. Yet, he still throws few interceptions and has a great completion percentage. He's not dropping into the fetal position when the rush is coming. He doesn't feel the ghosts. He doesn't feebly throw the ball away to avoid sacks.
So how the hell is that not a sign of toughness? How the hell can you conclude that Eli is somehow tougher?
Basically, I can conclude it because I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I not only wrote it with a straight face, I pumped my fist after I wrote it. Lol. Ok? Mental toughness is also a major part of toughness and something you completely overlooked. Eli has it in spades over sensitive Rodgers.
I have no doubt that Eli “dropping into the fetal position” on certain plays contributed to their SB seasons. Had he not (which btw, he NEVER does that with games on the line) it’s possible Eli gets seriously injured, OR sack fumbles the ball. When the game was on the line and it was a do or die moment, Eli, every damn time stood tall in the pocket and got crushed and delivered the ball. So excuse me, but screw you if you think he is cowardly.
Basically, I can conclude it because I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I not only wrote it with a straight face, I pumped my fist after I wrote it. Lol. Ok? Mental toughness is also a major part of toughness and something you completely overlooked. Eli has it in spades over sensitive Rodgers.
I have no doubt that Eli “dropping into the fetal position” on certain plays contributed to their SB seasons. Had he not (which btw, he NEVER does that with games on the line) it’s possible Eli gets seriously injured, OR sack fumbles the ball. When the game was on the line and it was a do or die moment, Eli, every damn time stood tall in the pocket and got crushed and delivered the ball. So excuse me, but screw you if you think he is cowardly.
I guess fair enough...
But I didn’t say Eli was cowardly, I challenged you that Rodgers wasn’t tough. And I at least attempted to support that reasoning.
And just for the record, Eli has 120 career fumbles. Rodgers 77. So let’s steer away from any attempt to suggest Eli is some great protector of the rock. In fact, that may be his biggest weakness.
If you don’t think it takes mental toughness to hang in the pocket like Rodgers does, and then extend the play with his mobility (putting himself even more a risk), then I’m even more dubious of your understanding of the game.
Comparing the optics on both, and how both are perceived/treated is the heart of this issue.
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In comment 14205005 Default said:
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In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:
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course of his career than Eli...
lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses
that statement doesn’t put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light
Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies?
Yes they are.
Put them on Tennessee and you would have no idea who they were.
I see we've entered the stage of BBI "debate" where people just say bullshit to prop up their opinions. Have fun, kids...
O-line has always been the issue people have had where the front office failed.
Rodgers is 0-37 when trailing against teams with winning records in the 4th quarter. Don't shoot the messanger. Just passing what I heard.
Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.
What a stupid, mindless stat
Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.
What a stupid, mindless stat
Yeah don’t shoot the messenger.... it didn’t make sense then and it doesn’t even make sense now.
Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.
What a stupid, mindless stat
What makes it worse is they don’t count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.
Very stupid stat. I shouldn’t have posted it.
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Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??
Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.
What a stupid, mindless stat
What makes it worse is they don’t count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.
Very stupid stat. I shouldn’t have posted it.
That stat was ferociously repeated on twitter, but it's one of those "stats" that are a really bad lie. USA today had a field day ripping it to shreds.
Of course, if you feel like Rodgers gets too much praise, it's easy to spin it as truth.
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Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??
Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.
What a stupid, mindless stat
What makes it worse is they don’t count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.
Very stupid stat. I shouldn’t have posted it.
Doesn't count playoffs in the stat either. It's mindless spin.