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Aaron Rodgers...

Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/4/2018 7:59 am
listening to Sirius/XM NFL radio on way home from work yesterday - Moving the Chains with Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan.

They were talking about the Firing of McCarthy and Kirwan said Rodgers has become a piece of work in Green Bay and then said "I will leave it at that".

It was a very interesting comment especially now that Rodgers has been paid the money and his play has not been good. Now, if that was no. 10, man, we'd be hearing it from the beat writers and so forth.

But I see the same situation in Green Bay that I have in New York. The Packers have not built or given Rodgers help. Based purely on observation, the Packers should be scoring 30 pts a game but they are not. So for those who may watch Green Bay more than I do...what's the issue there?
Rodgers doesnt take the  
CromartiesKid21 : 12/4/2018 8:01 am : link
play given in front of him anymore; all he tries to do is play hero ball and look for the big shot downfield while taking sacks and not sustaining drives.
Rodgers has been failed  
rocco8112 : 12/4/2018 8:07 am : link
by his team and his (Super Bowl Winning) head coach. The franchise has failed him and the losses lie at the feet of everyone involved in Green Bay down to the maintenence staff and caterers.

There is no blame to assign this generational QB, his franchise has failed him.

This is the opposite of the Giants situation where it is old, obsolete and immobile Eli who has been an anchor on the Giants success.

Or, football might be a team game and it is hard to keep a winner going.
Well, there are excuses for Rodgers (ďplaying on one legĒ),  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:08 am : link
none for Eli..

😎😎
Rodgers has been failed by Green Bay  
Chris684 : 12/4/2018 8:14 am : link
and Eli has failed the Giants.

It's the same boring narrative from the haters.

Excuses all around for the other guys, throw our guy under the bus.
RE: Rodgers has been failed by Green Bay  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:16 am : link
In comment 14204905 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and Eli has failed the Giants.

It's the same boring narrative from the haters.

Excuses all around for the other guys, throw our guy under the bus.


Duh, ya think? :)
RE: Well, there are excuses for Rodgers (ďplaying on one legĒ),  
rocco8112 : 12/4/2018 8:17 am : link
In comment 14204895 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
none for Eli..

😎😎


Yeah, it is always like this. Football is the ultimate team sport, by nature of the position QB gets a lot of blame or credit. Some in my view, get way more blame than others. Every game is a referendum on Eli's career and always has been. Rodgers on the other hand has the excuse parade marched out over and over.
Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:20 am : link
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..

As Iíve said since 2011, Rodgers would have zero titles if not for our 2010 31-10 meltdown in the Philly game.

Again, I give two shitz whether they are better QBs. Give me my titles, angst and all
Rodgers deserves his share of blame  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 8:21 am : link
But I don't think you can compare Rodgers to Eli. Let's be honest, if Eli's play had been at Rodgers level, no one would be criticizing him, and that's acknowledging that Rodgers's play is slipping. Prior to this year, the Packers recent win totals were 7, 10, 10, and 12 with three playoff appearances and two losses in the conference championship. NYG has seasons of 3, 11, 6, and 6 with one a one-and-done playoff appearance on the strength of the defense. Is this really a comparison?
No one comes into this house  
mattlawson : 12/4/2018 8:24 am : link
Without paying the price
BB56  
Chris684 : 12/4/2018 8:25 am : link
No need to explain to me my friend, we are on the same page. I have been an Eli Manning guy since the day we drafted him.

The grass isn't always greener, you know?
Also a divisional round loss for GB in 2015  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 8:27 am : link
Meaning they won a playoff game that year too.
it is really no secret that Aaron Rodgers is a douchebag  
Jints in Carolina : 12/4/2018 8:30 am : link
talented as hell, but still a douchebag.
RE: it is really no secret that Aaron Rodgers is a douchebag  
crick n NC : 12/4/2018 8:31 am : link
In comment 14204940 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
talented as hell, but still a douchebag.


👍
GB has had a better season than NYG every year going back to 2011  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 8:31 am : link
Not very close.
Aaron Rodgers  
hassan : 12/4/2018 8:34 am : link
has a 21:1 td-int ratio this season. They are bad this year in spite of him being stellar as usual. He may be a prick and a jerk, but the guy has top passing skills which are tangible.

Prior to this year, Rodgers consistently won when he stayed the starter for the team.

The lack of context is a little alarming in the comparisons.

It is a team game, but the appropriate amount of blame the qbs should have is very different between gb and nyg.



Rodgers has thrown 21 TDs this year  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 8:36 am : link
to one pick. His team is better than ours year in year out, but let's pile on the guy.
Not to make excuses for Rodgers but...  
EricJ : 12/4/2018 8:37 am : link
he has one guy to throw to. The rest of the WRs has been a revolving door.
Go back to the  
crick n NC : 12/4/2018 8:38 am : link
Old philosophy - quarterbacks get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when the team loses
The definition of insanity.....  
Doomster : 12/4/2018 8:40 am : link
Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,
Big Blue '56 : 8:20 am : link : reply
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..
crick  
hassan : 12/4/2018 8:42 am : link
sure, but that still doesnít make comparing eli to rodgers rational.....
RE: The definition of insanity.....  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:42 am : link
In comment 14204953 Doomster said:
Quote:
Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,
Big Blue '56 : 8:20 am : link : reply
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..


You forgot to bold even if they are/were better QBs over a career.
Rodgers is great  
jeff57 : 12/4/2018 8:44 am : link
He's carried his team more than any other QB not named Russell Wilson.
To be fair  
joeinpa : 12/4/2018 8:45 am : link
Do you guys think Eli is a talented as Rogers

There are Eli hater there, but seeing his limitations this stage of his career does not put one in that club.
RE: To be fair  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:49 am : link
In comment 14204959 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Do you guys think Eli is a talented as Rogers

There are Eli hater there, but seeing his limitations this stage of his career does not put one in that club.


Absolutely not. But he has more championships which is ALL this fan cares about
...  
christian : 12/4/2018 8:51 am : link
The cumulative satisfaction of the 2 championships makes being a Giants fan over the span of Manning's career more enjoyable than being a Packers fan over the span of Rodgers. I don't think anyone can honestly argue against that.

But who the better player is and who's had a better career is a far different story and should be measured by different criteria.

Winning 2 rings isn't a career measurement. No one thinks Jim Punket had better career than Steve Young, right?
RE: Aaron Rodgers  
exiled : 12/4/2018 8:53 am : link
Quote:
has a 21:1 td-int ratio this season. They are bad this year in spite of him being stellar as usual. ...

It is a team game, but the appropriate amount of blame the qbs should have is very different between gb and nyg.


Youíre right about context. Comparing Rodgers and Eli has always been apples and oranges. And Rodgers stats have been pretty good this season. Eliís? No. But Rodgers has always been an imprtovisational player. Eliís a pocket passer, where the line play is critical. Heíd actually be playing considerably better with GBís line. (The last time I checked anyway, it had a decent rating.)

Listen, Iím an Eli homer, but Iíve never thought heís been on par with Rodgers. The end results, though, are the same. 4 wins.
RE: ...  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 8:54 am : link
In comment 14204968 christian said:
Quote:
The cumulative satisfaction of the 2 championships makes being a Giants fan over the span of Manning's career more enjoyable than being a Packers fan over the span of Rodgers. I don't think anyone can honestly argue against that.

But who the better player is and who's had a better career is a far different story and should be measured by different criteria.

Winning 2 rings isn't a career measurement. No one thinks Jim Punket had better career than Steve Young, right?


Morning buddy. No sane fan would ever argue that Eli is or has been better or comparable to Rodgers over their respective careers. You canít. I donít know of anyone who would
Contrary to popular belief  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 8:56 am : link
Believing it is in the best interest of the team to move on does not make one an Eli hater. I love Eli and he is unquestionably my favorite player of this era. The difference is, I'm sick of losing and looking forward to the future, not trying to relive the past in desperation. There is too much baggage coming with years of losing football and in my eyes we need to bury the past, of which the recent past is as ugly as we've seen in a long long time, so that we can focus on the future. Even if it means taking a small step back so we can move forward.
I'm starting to understand why the Giants organization  
Motley Two : 12/4/2018 8:57 am : link
started to fetishize all things Green Bay over the past several years, half their fanbase is gay for Aaron Rodgers.
Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
JCin332 : 12/4/2018 9:07 am : link
course of his career than Eli...
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/4/2018 9:08 am : link
In comment 14204978 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14204968 christian said:


Quote:


The cumulative satisfaction of the 2 championships makes being a Giants fan over the span of Manning's career more enjoyable than being a Packers fan over the span of Rodgers. I don't think anyone can honestly argue against that.

But who the better player is and who's had a better career is a far different story and should be measured by different criteria.

Winning 2 rings isn't a career measurement. No one thinks Jim Punket had better career than Steve Young, right?



Morning buddy. No sane fan would ever argue that Eli is or has been better or comparable to Rodgers over their respective careers. You canít. I donít know of anyone who would


Completely agree. Tangent, but I feel like some fans feel like they need to be hyperbolic about Manning, as if his career and achievements alone don't make him great. He is a great quarterback, who's achieved so much.

He's just had the misfortune, reputation wise of playing through 2 eras of fantastic QB play. But who's played at the same time is just background noise to me.

The undisputed quality he should be remembered for is being the toughest QB of his era. He doesn't get nearly enough praise for that.
The definition of insanity.....  
Doomster : 12/4/2018 9:11 am : link
Doomster : 8:40 am : link : reply
Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,
Big Blue '56 : 8:20 am : link : reply
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..

You are correct! That is much better!
RE: Rodgers doesnt take the  
Tuckrule : 12/4/2018 9:11 am : link
In comment 14204887 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
play given in front of him anymore; all he tries to do is play hero ball and look for the big shot downfield while taking sacks and not sustaining drives.


So you basically took a packer caller who called into boomer and carton and regurgitated it as your own thoughts. You even used ďhero ballĒ and the ďbig shot down fieldĒ. Exactly how the caller said it. Man I wish people would either give credit or not post others peoples shit as their own.
RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
Default : 12/4/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:
Quote:
course of his career than Eli...

lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses

that statement doesnít put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light
Could never understand why this is such a charged topic  
jcn56 : 12/4/2018 9:34 am : link
When it's all said and done, Rodgers might end up being one of the best to ever play the position.

Eli's not as good as Rodgers. He's also not as good as Brady. So what? Does that somehow take away from his career or accomplishments, that he doesn't directly measure up against two of the best to ever play the position?

Strahan was no Reggie White either, but I'm still glad he played in a Giants uniform.
I don't think it has anything to do with Eli....  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 9:36 am : link
I think it has more to do with the anointing of Rodgers.
RE: Also a divisional round loss for GB in 2015  
Dinger : 12/4/2018 9:37 am : link
In comment 14204933 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Meaning they won a playoff game that year too.


But here is where you have your cake and want to eat it too. If Rodgers got them to the playoffs so many year, 9 I believe, and he only has one superbowl win and Eli has been there 6 times and has 2 superbowl victories wouldnt that make him a better quarterback? Or are we going to pick and choose when its an organizational issue, a team effort, the competition, or all just on the QB?

Rogers is a great quarterback no doubt. But you have to give Eli credit where its due as well. Even his two SB teams were not world beaters in the regular season. He made some average receivers and TE's better players.
I've always felt it was strange that Aaron Rodgers....  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 9:43 am : link
was considered to do it all on his own and elevate his team above their level of play.

The year he actually won the Superbowl, they had the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL.
RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
MetsAreBack : 12/4/2018 9:44 am : link
In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:
Quote:
course of his career than Eli...


drivel nonsense.

And as far as two championships go, perhaps if Rodgers had defenses that held NE to 14 and 17 points, respectively, things would be different for him.

Instead -- they gave up 51 to Arizona, 37 to NYG, 45 to SF, 44 to ATL. Green Bay has averaged giving up 26.5 points per game in 16 Rodgers playoff games. But by all means, lets pretend Rodgers isnt clutch.
RE: I've always felt it was strange that Aaron Rodgers....  
MetsAreBack : 12/4/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 14205028 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
was considered to do it all on his own and elevate his team above their level of play.

The year he actually won the Superbowl, they had the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL.


In 2011, the Packers defense averaged giving up 19 points per game during their superbowl run. The following year, the NYG defense averaged giving up 14 points per game.
RE: I've always felt it was strange that Aaron Rodgers....  
Ash_3 : 12/4/2018 9:52 am : link
In comment 14205028 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
was considered to do it all on his own and elevate his team above their level of play.

The year he actually won the Superbowl, they had the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL.


So you're making the same damn argument you make for Eli--that he needs help to succeed. Moreover, Rodgers does make his receivers better. Rodgers has largely enjoyed pretty good offensive lines, but his accuracy and mobility have allowed him to make his offensive cast better than the sum of its parts.

Nearly every football claim you make about other QBs is some shadow claim about Eli or is inconsistent with your own previous defenses of Eli.
Of course he needs help to succeed. Every QB does.  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 9:53 am : link
That's why I always find it hilarious how I hear "Aaron Rodgers doesn't need a perfect line like Eli does, Aaron Rodgers would have this roster winning...."

It's all bullsh-t. All QB's need help. Nobody does it on their own.

You act like that's some kind of universal opinion here, it's not.
It's a team game.  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 9:54 am : link
Always has been. Always will be.
RE: RE: Also a divisional round loss for GB in 2015  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 10:03 am : link
In comment 14205022 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 14204933 UberAlias said:


Quote:


Meaning they won a playoff game that year too.



But here is where you have your cake and want to eat it too. If Rodgers got them to the playoffs so many year, 9 I believe, and he only has one superbowl win and Eli has been there 6 times and has 2 superbowl victories wouldnt that make him a better quarterback? Or are we going to pick and choose when its an organizational issue, a team effort, the competition, or all just on the QB?

Rogers is a great quarterback no doubt. But you have to give Eli credit where its due as well. Even his two SB teams were not world beaters in the regular season. He made some average receivers and TE's better players.
I'm not comparing their careers. My personal opinion on that matter is that AR covered up a lot of the stink in GB, but that is neither here nor there. My point was that GB is in a downturn, but their recent history going back several years is FAR superior to NYG in every season. Rodgers hasn't been just putting up stats in the past 5 or 6 years, he's winning games in regular season and the playoffs. Now despite his 21:1 TD:INT ratio, the team isn't winning a lot of games. That's not the same as NYG who have been worse and the offense anemic.
I give Eli HUGE amount of credit for both SB wins  
UberAlias : 12/4/2018 10:06 am : link
The problem is, that was a long time ago and the results since have not been good.
RE: I give Eli HUGE amount of credit for both SB wins  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 10:10 am : link
In comment 14205056 UberAlias said:
Quote:
The problem is, that was a long time ago and the results since have not been good.


A lot has gone wrong here.

Eli Needs more help around him than Rodgers does, but suffice it to say Eli hasnít gotten it from NY and Rodgers certainly hasnít gotten it from GB.
RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career.


You will take shit for it because you will deserve to take shit for it. If you fire up the time machine and put prime Dan Marino on those Giants teams, do you really mean to suggest that they DON'T win with him? Utterly ludicrous.

I've pointed this out before and I'll do so again now: when Marino took over as starter in 1983, the Dolphins still had a great defense, ranked 1st in points allowed and 7th in yards allowed. In year two, when they went to the Super Bowl, they slipped a bit to 7th and 12th. After that? 12/23, 26/26, 16/26, 24/26, 22/24, 4/7, 24/25, 11/10, 24/20, 17/19, 10/16, 17/17, 16/26, 1/3, 19/5. He played almost his entire career with awful defenses, and even when their defense was good in 1990, they allowed 44 points to Buffalo in their playoff loss. Additionally, here are the leading rushers he had over the course of his career: Andra Franklin, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan, Troy Stradford, Lorenzo Hampton, Sammy Smith, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, JJ Johnson. Abdul-Jabbar in 1996 was the only 1000 yard rusher he ever had. And he never had great receivers, either. Duper and Clayton were good, but hardly Hall of Fame caliber players. Same with Irving Fryar in his later career.

Dan Marino is the poster boy for a franchise wasting its QB with a subpar roster.
RE: RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 10:14 am : link
In comment 14205062 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career.



You will take shit for it because you will deserve to take shit for it. If you fire up the time machine and put prime Dan Marino on those Giants teams, do you really mean to suggest that they DON'T win with him? Utterly ludicrous.

I've pointed this out before and I'll do so again now: when Marino took over as starter in 1983, the Dolphins still had a great defense, ranked 1st in points allowed and 7th in yards allowed. In year two, when they went to the Super Bowl, they slipped a bit to 7th and 12th. After that? 12/23, 26/26, 16/26, 24/26, 22/24, 4/7, 24/25, 11/10, 24/20, 17/19, 10/16, 17/17, 16/26, 1/3, 19/5. He played almost his entire career with awful defenses, and even when their defense was good in 1990, they allowed 44 points to Buffalo in their playoff loss. Additionally, here are the leading rushers he had over the course of his career: Andra Franklin, Woody Bennett, Tony Nathan, Troy Stradford, Lorenzo Hampton, Sammy Smith, Mark Higgs, Bernie Parmalee, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, JJ Johnson. Abdul-Jabbar in 1996 was the only 1000 yard rusher he ever had. And he never had great receivers, either. Duper and Clayton were good, but hardly Hall of Fame caliber players. Same with Irving Fryar in his later career.

Dan Marino is the poster boy for a franchise wasting its QB with a subpar roster.


This is a pretty good post but I think Duper and Clayton were really good. Simms would have given his left nut for them.
Regardless of football  
Dnew15 : 12/4/2018 10:26 am : link
ability, Eli is a whole lot easier to root for than that douche bag Rodgers.
yes briefly though  
hassan : 12/4/2018 10:27 am : link
regarding duper and clayton.

Duper and Clayton were gods compared to the Giants receivers, yeah  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 10:33 am : link
Still not THAT good. They were both really small, too.

When Marino was in the prime of his career in 1986-89, the Dolphins couldn't even get into the playoffs in a weakass AFC. That's how bad the team around him was.
RE: crick  
crick n NC : 12/4/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 14204956 hassan said:
Quote:
sure, but that still doesnít make comparing eli to rodgers rational.....


I'm comparing Rodgers to manning. Rodgers is one of the most talented Qb's to ever play.

It's just a simple philosophy that I believe in and have seen it in action countless times. I've seen it regarding 2011 giving a Eli too much credit for that season. Just as I've seen him take too much blame.

Rodgers is taking heat right now because the team isn't winning. Too much heat. There also have been plenty of times where he was given too much credit for the success of his team.
*not* comparing  
crick n NC : 12/4/2018 10:56 am : link
Rodgers and Manning
Iíll have to concur with Shurmur who recently spoke about  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 11:00 am : link
Toughness and resiliency trumping talent.

Yes, Rodgers is more talented than Eli. Heís more talented than pretty much every single QB out there. But Eli is tougher, classier and much more resilient. Heís also a better leader. He embodies the spirit of the Giants too. Give me an Eli Manning and his 2SBMVPS that were won btw by beating Favre AND Rodgers in Lambeau. Heís not as flashy nor as talented, but heís a hell of a lot tougher and so in my mind, better.
Clearly he is toast and has David Carr/Eli level PTSD  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/4/2018 11:01 am : link
To think we plucked the pick of the litter Mcadoo from that highly overrated franchise.
RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
steve in ky : 12/4/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..

As Iíve said since 2011, Rodgers would have zero titles if not for our 2010 31-10 meltdown in the Philly game.

Again, I give two shitz whether they are better QBs. Give me my titles, angst and all


That's my thoughts as well. The bottom line is each team sets out with the goal of winning a Super Bowl championship. And while everyone respects talent and enjoys aspects of exciting games played, championships is ultimately how they should be judged.
I think too many people think others are comparing Rodgers to Eli.....  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 11:13 am : link
directly. They're not. Completely different skill sets, completely different QB's.

I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.

Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."

So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.

The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.
RE: I think too many people think others are comparing Rodgers to Eli.....  
rocco8112 : 12/4/2018 11:16 am : link
In comment 14205185 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
directly. They're not. Completely different skill sets, completely different QB's.

I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.

Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."

So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.

The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.


This pretty much sums it up.
RE: RE: crick  
rocco8112 : 12/4/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 14205145 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14204956 hassan said:


Quote:


sure, but that still doesnít make comparing eli to rodgers rational.....



I'm comparing Rodgers to manning. Rodgers is one of the most talented Qb's to ever play.

It's just a simple philosophy that I believe in and have seen it in action countless times. I've seen it regarding 2011 giving a Eli too much credit for that season. Just as I've seen him take too much blame.

Rodgers is taking heat right now because the team isn't winning. Too much heat. There also have been plenty of times where he was given too much credit for the success of his team.


The 2011 passing game highlighted by Eli's clutch heroics carried the Giants too a title. Eli set season record for 4th quarter TD'S and passing yards in a playoff.

This is before the game winning Super Bowl drive. This is called delivering the goods. Giants went through Rodgers' best team like shit through a goose to boot. All time QB play and accomplishment 2011. Eli was the real MVP.
RE: I think too many people think others are comparing Rodgers to Eli.....  
Ash_3 : 12/4/2018 11:20 am : link
In comment 14205185 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
directly. They're not. Completely different skill sets, completely different QB's.

I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.

Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."

So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.

The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.


This is all bluster. QBs can be different types of players and still be compared. Eli and Michael Vick were completely different, but I'd take the former because his floor (because of his durability and greater consistency in making harder throws) is higher. Eli and Rodgers are closer in style than Eli and Vick. QBs are not incommensurables. Rodgers has categorically been a much better player than Eli his entire career. To even suggest otherwise (which you, unsurprisingly are doing) is ridiculous. It's the sort of thing that doesn't even have to be argued. It should be damn premise to any comparative conversation about the two.
Agree completely with Britt in VAís  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 11:22 am : link
comments. As proud as I was of Eli and the team in the playoff game, I was struck by how rattled Rodgers looked on the sidelines when the game was slipping through their fingers. Eli unceremoniously stripped Rodgers of his championship belt that day and it was just so damn cool to watch. That silly belt thing Rodgers did after every TD was so stupid.
The 15-1 Packers are the only team in NFL history to not win a playoff  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 11:23 am : link
game.

Now reverse it. The Giants are 15-1 and lose at home in the playoffs to a 9-7 wildcard team with the 25th ranked defense in 2011. Eli misses a wide open Hakeem Nicks on the first drive and we get beat.

How do you think that's discussed, here?

But because it's Aaron Rodgers, it gets excused away.
As for this dreamt up distinction between substance  
Ash_3 : 12/4/2018 11:23 am : link
and optics--how players are viewed and whether that is justified depends entirely on their underlying performance. Eli is likely (career wise) (slightly) underrated. At most, you can claim Rodgers is slightly overrated. But that's the end of the discussion. It literally makes no difference in any pairwise comparison of the QBs as players.

I can claim that Adrian Beltre is slightly underrated and A-Rod slightly overrated, and still acknowledge that the latter is lightyears better.
RE: RE: I think too many people think others are comparing Rodgers to Eli.....  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 14205198 Ash_3 said:
Quote:
In comment 14205185 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


directly. They're not. Completely different skill sets, completely different QB's.

I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.

Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."

So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.

The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.



This is all bluster. QBs can be different types of players and still be compared. Eli and Michael Vick were completely different, but I'd take the former because his floor (because of his durability and greater consistency in making harder throws) is higher. Eli and Rodgers are closer in style than Eli and Vick. QBs are not incommensurables. Rodgers has categorically been a much better player than Eli his entire career. To even suggest otherwise (which you, unsurprisingly are doing) is ridiculous. It's the sort of thing that doesn't even have to be argued. It should be damn premise to any comparative conversation about the two.


I have never suggested that Eli Manning is a better Quarterback than Aaron Rodgers.
You're misreading my point.  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 11:25 am : link
.
RE: Agree completely with Britt in VAís  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 14205199 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
comments


NO WAY!!!!!!!
Should have read the only 15-1 team to not win a playoff game.  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 11:33 am : link
.
RE: RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
widmerseyebrow : 12/4/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 14205062 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You will take shit for it because you will deserve to take shit for it. If you fire up the time machine and put prime Dan Marino on those Giants teams, do you really mean to suggest that they DON'T win with him? Utterly ludicrous.

I've pointed this out before and I'll do so again now: when Marino took over as starter in 1983, the Dolphins still had a great defense, ranked 1st in points allowed and 7th in yards allowed. In year two, when they went to the Super Bowl, they slipped a bit to 7th and 12th. After that? 12/23, 26/26, 16/26, 24/26, 22/24, 4/7, 24/25, 11/10, 24/20, 17/19, 10/16, 17/17, 16/26, 1/3, 19/5. He played almost his entire career with awful defenses


2007 Giants 17/7
2011 Giants 25/27

Maybe they don't win it all. Marino was a turnover machine too and was piss poor at play action over the course of 17 years.

It does take a team but it's hardly a shoe in swapping quarterbacks. Especially 2011.
RE: Should have read the only 15-1 team to not win a playoff game.  
rocco8112 : 12/4/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 14205218 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Don't be too hard on the Pack that year, they lost to the best.
RE: RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
Les in TO : 12/4/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 14205005 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:


Quote:


course of his career than Eli...


lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses

that statement doesnít put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light
Yeah donít take anything he posts seriously. I suspect he is a drunk uncle of the manning family
Les you're such a boob  
JCin332 : 12/4/2018 11:48 am : link
Britt pretty much proved my point during the course of this thread but by all means carry on...
Rodgers  
KWALL2 : 12/4/2018 11:56 am : link
It doesnít get ďexcused awayĒ

The difference is Rodgers has been consistently elite.

Eli not close to that.

Thatís why Rodgers may not get the same abuse for a single loss or missing an open guy.

For example, Eliís 2008 playoff performance vs PHI. 50% passing. 170 yards. 2 Ints including a 7 point gift on a terrible floater from his goal line that gave them the ball at our 2 yard line. We scored 9 points on offense that day. Runnng game was working. Defense played exceptional. ST had a 70 yard return. Eli? Awful all day.

Rodgers
cmon, comparing the Giants' defenses to the Dolphins?  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 12:11 pm : link
The 2007 defense was damned good. That 17th ranking in points allowed is misleading: 80 points allowed in the first two weeks when they hadn't really learned the scheme, 21 points from Eli pick sixes in the Viking game alone (might have been others the rest of the season, no idea). After the Cowboys scored 31 in week 10, the defense allowed more than 22 points twice the rest of the season. Once was that Vikings game, in which there were three INTs for touchdowns as well as a fourth INT that was returned to the Giants 8 yard line that was turned into another TD. The other was the regular season finale against the Patriots.

2011, yeah, not a good defense on the whole, but somehow they were transformed in the postseason. Pitched a shutout in Atlanta (only points were on the safety), held the Packers to 20 which included the scoring drive kept alive by the horrendous roughing the passer on Osi, and 17 points in both the title game and the Super Bowl. I have no explanation for how they did that, but somehow it happened. If the defense played the way they did for most of the season, they don't win.
I don't think pick 6's count against the defense....  
Britt in VA : 12/4/2018 12:22 pm : link
but I'm not arguing against your point, just pointing that out.
RE: RE: Agree completely with Britt in VAís  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14205208 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14205199 BBelle21 said:


Quote:


comments



NO WAY!!!!!!!


WAY!!!!! Truth hurts :)
RE: RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
jeff57 : 12/4/2018 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14205163 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..

As Iíve said since 2011, Rodgers would have zero titles if not for our 2010 31-10 meltdown in the Philly game.

Again, I give two shitz whether they are better QBs. Give me my titles, angst and all



That's my thoughts as well. The bottom line is each team sets out with the goal of winning a Super Bowl championship. And while everyone respects talent and enjoys aspects of exciting games played, championships is ultimately how they should be judged.


So I guess you'll take Jeff Hostetler and Nick Foles over Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.
Saying Eli is my QB  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 12:27 pm : link
And is always my QB, really gets under some peopleís skin
Good for Rodgers for speaking up  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/4/2018 12:28 pm : link
about the failure that's been around him for awhile now. I wish more players were like that. He deserves better.
They do for that ranking  
Greg from LI : 12/4/2018 12:29 pm : link
They were 17th in points allowed with 351. 351 is the total number of points the Giants' opponents scored that season, which includes a kickoff return as well as the pick sixes.
Not sure what the issue is here.  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 12:38 pm : link
We recognize that Aaron Rodgers, career-wise, is the better QB, probably top 5 all-time.

There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, Iím more than happy to suffer through the shit thatís happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.

For THIS fan, itís a no-brainer
RE: Good for Rodgers for speaking up  
JCin332 : 12/4/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14205325 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
about the failure that's been around him for awhile now. I wish more players were like that. He deserves better.


Hence a lot of the points above because if Eli did the same people such as yourself would be the 1st to call him out...and the Giants failure has been far worse...
RE: RE: RE: Also Chris and yes I will take shit for this,  
steve in ky : 12/4/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14205318 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 14205163 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 14204920 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


I will always take an Eli over a Marino, Rodgers and Brees because he has as many SB wins than those QBs combined, even if they are/were better QBs over a career..

As Iíve said since 2011, Rodgers would have zero titles if not for our 2010 31-10 meltdown in the Philly game.

Again, I give two shitz whether they are better QBs. Give me my titles, angst and all



That's my thoughts as well. The bottom line is each team sets out with the goal of winning a Super Bowl championship. And while everyone respects talent and enjoys aspects of exciting games played, championships is ultimately how they should be judged.



So I guess you'll take Jeff Hostetler and Nick Foles over Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.


It depends on the discussion. If we are simply trying to say which was more skilled throughout his career, then no. But if you are asking if I would give up the Super Bowl the Giants won with Hoss in order to have had either of those guys then that would be hard to do. Kind of like taking points off the board when a coach can choose to accept a penalty on a FG in order for the chance at a TD. It's a risky move. Of course this is all hypothetical but as good as those guys were there are no guarantees the Giants ever get that second one if either of those two replace Hoss.

Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Along those lines I bet most great skilled QB's who never won a ring would trade some of their stats for a ring or two if they could. That is the goal they all strive for their entire careers.
What puzzles me about GB  
phil in arizona : 12/4/2018 1:11 pm : link
is that they have an absolute stud at RB and he gets the ball 13 times a game.
Fouts, Marino, Rodgers, Peyton  
Thegratefulhead : 12/4/2018 1:12 pm : link
When you have a HoF prolific passer you tend to throw a lot. Marino has said even if the play call as a run, he would throw anyway. I think this style of play catches up with teams in the playoffs because of weather. There are more domes now, but still. I think it is why these players end up with great season stats but do not look as good in the playoffs.
Eli would get bashed  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 1:21 pm : link
If he ďspoke upĒ like this.
. . . .  
jeff57 : 12/4/2018 1:31 pm : link
Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.
RE: . . . .  
steve in ky : 12/4/2018 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.


Surprised, I don't think I ever heard a fan say he would trade in one of our Super Bowl wins before this.
RE: RE: . . . .  
jeff57 : 12/4/2018 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14205420 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.



Surprised, I don't think I ever heard a fan say he would trade in one of our Super Bowl wins before this.


They would have won 4 with Marino.
Possibly  
steve in ky : 12/4/2018 1:45 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
Chris in Philly : 12/4/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14205005 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:


Quote:


course of his career than Eli...


lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses

that statement doesnít put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light


Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies? Eddie Lacy had a couple 1100 yard seasons before he got fat. When he started out he still had Greg Jennings and Donald Driver putting up 1000 yards seasons. Ryan Grant had 1200 yards rushing in AR's first two years as starter. You don't have a lot of credibility in your argument when you dismiss that kind of production...
RE: . . . .  
Chris in Philly : 12/4/2018 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.


And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...
RE: RE: . . . .  
jeff57 : 12/4/2018 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14205431 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.



And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...


By whom? Idiots at ESPN and talk radio?
RE: Not sure what the issue is here.  
family progtitioner : 12/4/2018 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14205345 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
We recognize that Aaron Rodgers, career-wise, is the better QB, probably top 5 all-time.

There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, Iím more than happy to suffer through the shit thatís happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.

For THIS fan, itís a no-brainer


I respect this but, man, it's been tough to go through the last 5-6 years watching Aaron Rodgers and others have yearly playoff games while the Giants have been out of it by mid November and winning meaningless games against backup QBs.

I loved the end result of 2011 and I think Eli had his truly elite season that year but while it's always great to win a SB, it directly set up these last 6 years of crappy football when management thought they could keep pushing for another title with the same cast.
RE: RE: Not sure what the issue is here.  
Big Blue '56 : 12/4/2018 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14205439 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
In comment 14205345 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


We recognize that Aaron Rodgers, career-wise, is the better QB, probably top 5 all-time.

There are fans such as myself, who care more about championships than great QB performances. Hence, Iím more than happy to suffer through the shit thatís happened to the team these last bunch of years to have 2 SB titles the last 10 years.

For THIS fan, itís a no-brainer



I respect this but, man, it's been tough to go through the last 5-6 years watching Aaron Rodgers and others have yearly playoff games while the Giants have been out of it by mid November and winning meaningless games against backup QBs.

I loved the end result of 2011 and I think Eli had his truly elite season that year but while it's always great to win a SB, it directly set up these last 6 years of crappy football when management thought they could keep pushing for another title with the same cast.


Of course itís tough going through this
RE: RE: RE: . . . .  
Chris in Philly : 12/4/2018 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14205434 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 14205431 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


In comment 14205405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


Hypothetically and knowing the Giants got the championship would you give up Hoss for Mariono for the chance of his not only also winning that one but more?

Uh, yes. A million times over.

This concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl is simply ridiculous. Marino and Fouts were two of the greatest QBs ever. That they didn't win a super bowl doesn't detract from that.



And yet the concept of evaluating a QB based on whether he's won a super bowl was the exact foundation of the judgment of Marino and Peyton before he finally got over the hump...



By whom? Idiots at ESPN and talk radio?


Maybe you slept through the years of Brady vs Manning debates by everyone from the drunk at the corner bar to NFL execs...
Itís never as easy as one guy or one simple answer  
djm : 12/4/2018 3:08 pm : link
To me the whole Eli and Rodgers thing comes down to this: itís a young manís game and itís a team game.
RE: RE: RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
Default : 12/4/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14205430 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14205005 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:


Quote:


course of his career than Eli...


lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses

that statement doesnít put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light



Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies?


Yes they are.
Put them on Tennessee and you would have no idea who they were.
Cobb sucks  
KWALL2 : 12/4/2018 4:04 pm : link
Adams is ok. Rodgers makes these guys.

Eli and Rodgers. There is no comparison. Eli isnít close. He doesnít do anything better and in most areas is far behind Rodgers. Itís like comparing Jarvis Landry to Jerry Rice. Itís a different league.

Rodgers is an all time great.

Eli has been good at times but inconsistent and limited. He has 2 SBs. You donít take him over Rodgers because his team won 1 more SB. Thatís crazy talk.

RE: I think too many people think others are comparing Rodgers to Eli.....  
Scuzzlebutt : 12/4/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 14205185 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
directly. They're not. Completely different skill sets, completely different QB's.

I think where people get annoyed is that, as WillVAB has said on a couple of threads, Rodgers is given god like status among QB's, that he can overcome every deficiency and is solely responsible for the team's success. That's he's just that good.

Where Eli comes in, is that when you say Eli can't function behind the horrible offensive line we've had for 6 years, you are bombared with "Eli needs perfect conditions to be a good QB, Aaron Rodgers would elevate his team, he would have this same roster winning no problem at all, etc..."

So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not Eli vs. Rodgers per se. It's having it thrown in your face in every argument that Rodgers could have this team a winner as constructed, merely because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Frankly, Aaron Rodgers is a lot of flash. He has all the numbers the stats geeks love. But just for instance, against the Giants in 2011, at home in Lambeau, the reigning League MVP, a 15-1 record, 45 TD's and 6 INT's... couldn't put up more than 20 points on the Giants 25th ranked defense. And yeah, his receivers dropped some passes, but he missed some too. Including a wide open, nobody around him within 10 yards, Jordy Nelson on the first drive which would have been a TD. A throw that if Eli missed, would still be talked about today as costing us the Superbowl (even though it was the first playoff game) years later.

The comparison is the optics on both, not directly to each other.


Well said
As for the whole marino Simms Eli thing  
djm : 12/4/2018 5:33 pm : link
My take is this, if marino was a ny giants from the jump there is absolutely no doubt those giants teams under Marino would have won more games. A lot more. But donít sit here and guarantee me that marino is 100% destined to win the super bowl(s) ó you canít. Sorry, you canít. Was marino better? Of course he was. Would marino be ďbetterĒ or good enough at San Fran 1990 or home vs joe Gibbs in 1986? Probably, but not definitely.

Sports are funny. Nothing is black and white.
The wrs and rbs Eli has had  
hassan : 12/4/2018 5:39 pm : link
are vastly superior to GB. Adams and Cobb would be nobodies elsewhere correct. None are Beckham, Nicks, Cruz or Burress (not even mentioning Manningham and Smith) with exception of Jordy Nelson who was not Beckham and probably at peak as good as Nicks, maybe slightly better...Jennings was a good receiver probably his second best but he is not as good as the guys Giants had in here.

And no Barkley or tiki in that backfield. And those defenses on the whole were worse than what Giants have had over last decade.

As usual, certain members of the pro Eli mob thinks they can discredit the entire Giants org in propping him up. No surprise there.

the original premise is fine. Arod is a dick. Turning this into an opportunity to compare Eli and him and justify Eli not being successful by pointing out Arod is where this thread went bad.


If devante Adams is just ok...  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 5:43 pm : link
Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies.

Davante Adams is a flat out stud.

And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasnít been nearly as good as Cobb either.
Wait...  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 5:46 pm : link
We are discrediting Eliís teammates but arenít you discrediting Rodgers teammates to prop him up?

I mean Greg Jennings was a machine for Rodgers when he get the job.
RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
Ash_3 : 12/4/2018 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14205784 dep026 said:
Quote:
Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies.

Davante Adams is a flat out stud.

And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasnít been nearly as good as Cobb either.


I doubt either Greg Jennings or Davante Adams have anywhere near the success they have had with Eli. See GJ after he left Minny. And I feel comfortable arguing that SS would be a better WR with Rodgers. I like Eli as a person much better than Rodgers. Eli is my favorite Giant ever. But Eli is not Rodgers and never will be. And it's not close.
And I am not take Eli over  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 5:48 pm : link
Rodgers either.

But to say he has one good skilled player is just not true.
RE: RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
Ash_3 : 12/4/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14205790 Ash_3 said:
Quote:
In comment 14205784 dep026 said:


Quote:


Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies.

Davante Adams is a flat out stud.

And Greg Jennings was a damn fine WR. And sterling shepard hasnít been nearly as good as Cobb either.



I doubt either Greg Jennings or Davante Adams have anywhere near the success they have had with Eli. See GJ after he left Minny. And I feel comfortable arguing that SS would be a better WR with Rodgers. I like Eli as a person much better than Rodgers. Eli is my favorite Giant ever. But Eli is not Rodgers and never will be. And it's not close.


After he left GB of course.
So Greg Jennings wasnít as good  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 5:49 pm : link
Once he hit 30 and after a major injury? Well no kidding.
They almost cut Adams  
KWALL2 : 12/4/2018 5:59 pm : link
Heís been a good player the last 2 years. Heís improved a lot. But heís JAG. Ok player. With Eli, the numbers would take a big hit.

And yes, putting Shepard on GB and he has a big jump in production.
Interesting convo...  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/4/2018 6:06 pm : link
I think Nicks and Cruz (at their peak, however short-lived) were easily better than Adams and slightly above Jennings. Cobb was definitely better than Steve Smith, but both were essentially slot receivers.

As someone else said, I'd put Jordy Nelson above these people and Odell way above everybody.
RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
Default : 12/4/2018 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14205784 dep026 said:
Quote:
Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies


All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.
RE: RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14205817 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14205784 dep026 said:


Quote:


Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies



All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.


Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but Iíd be wasting my breath.
RE: Interesting convo...  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14205811 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
I think Nicks and Cruz (at their peak, however short-lived) were easily better than Adams and slightly above Jennings. Cobb was definitely better than Steve Smith, but both were essentially slot receivers.

As someone else said, I'd put Jordy Nelson above these people and Odell way above everybody.


The problem is Nicks and Cruz has 2 1/2 peak years then they really bottomed out. So we have no clue how great they could have unfortunately. Together, they were lethal and unstoppable.


One thing to remember Adams is only 26 after this year. Heís a monster.
RE: Iíll have to concur with Shurmur who recently spoke about  
bw in dc : 12/4/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14205154 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
Toughness and resiliency trumping talent.

Yes, Rodgers is more talented than Eli. Heís more talented than pretty much every single QB out there. But Eli is tougher, classier and much more resilient. Heís also a better leader. He embodies the spirit of the Giants too. Give me an Eli Manning and his 2SBMVPS that were won btw by beating Favre AND Rodgers in Lambeau. Heís not as flashy nor as talented, but heís a hell of a lot tougher and so in my mind, better.


Wait, you wrote this with a straight face?

Eli is tougher? What exactly is this based on?

In 14 years as starter, Eli has been sacked 400X. In 11 years as starter, Rodgers has been sacked 398X. Rodgers has "led" the league in being sacked twice, and each of those year he was sacked 50X+. He's ben sacked over 30X in eight years. Eli has been sacked over 30X just four times in his career.

Rodgers hangs in the pocket as well as anyone we've ever seen (Roeth is very similar). He is willing to wait as long as possible to make a play. Yet, he still throws few interceptions and has a great completion percentage. He's not dropping into the fetal position when the rush is coming. He doesn't feel the ghosts. He doesn't feebly throw the ball away to avoid sacks.

So how the hell is that not a sign of toughness? How the hell can you conclude that Eli is somehow tougher?
Lol  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 6:32 pm : link
It never fails...
the point is  
hassan : 12/4/2018 6:32 pm : link
saying eli has been shortchanged in talent is such a pile of revisionist bs. with regards to receiver talent.

i personally think adams is the result of no other better looks elsewhere. i think peak nicks was far better. he had to share balls in the giants o.

arguing about the o line in recent years is one think, saying in his career rodgers has had better skill talent is total bunk.
RE: RE: RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
Default : 12/4/2018 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14205827 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14205817 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14205784 dep026 said:


Quote:


Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies



All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.



Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but Iíd be wasting my breath.


By all means do.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If devante Adams is just ok...  
dep026 : 12/4/2018 6:43 pm : link
In comment 14205863 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14205827 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14205817 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14205784 dep026 said:


Quote:


Then Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Sterling Shepard, Mario manningham and Amani toomer (Eli years) are nobodies



All these years later Toomer is still underrated, this time by a Giants fan smh.



Lol... I would explain how my post went over your head... but Iíd be wasting my breath.



By all means do.


I am not discrediting our players... what I am saying is davante Adams is a really really good football player.
RE: RE: Iíll have to concur with Shurmur who recently spoke about  
BBelle21 : 12/4/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14205854 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14205154 BBelle21 said:


Quote:


Toughness and resiliency trumping talent.

Yes, Rodgers is more talented than Eli. Heís more talented than pretty much every single QB out there. But Eli is tougher, classier and much more resilient. Heís also a better leader. He embodies the spirit of the Giants too. Give me an Eli Manning and his 2SBMVPS that were won btw by beating Favre AND Rodgers in Lambeau. Heís not as flashy nor as talented, but heís a hell of a lot tougher and so in my mind, better.



Wait, you wrote this with a straight face?

Eli is tougher? What exactly is this based on?

In 14 years as starter, Eli has been sacked 400X. In 11 years as starter, Rodgers has been sacked 398X. Rodgers has "led" the league in being sacked twice, and each of those year he was sacked 50X+. He's ben sacked over 30X in eight years. Eli has been sacked over 30X just four times in his career.

Rodgers hangs in the pocket as well as anyone we've ever seen (Roeth is very similar). He is willing to wait as long as possible to make a play. Yet, he still throws few interceptions and has a great completion percentage. He's not dropping into the fetal position when the rush is coming. He doesn't feel the ghosts. He doesn't feebly throw the ball away to avoid sacks.

So how the hell is that not a sign of toughness? How the hell can you conclude that Eli is somehow tougher?


Basically, I can conclude it because I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I not only wrote it with a straight face, I pumped my fist after I wrote it. Lol. Ok? Mental toughness is also a major part of toughness and something you completely overlooked. Eli has it in spades over sensitive Rodgers.

I have no doubt that Eli ďdropping into the fetal positionĒ on certain plays contributed to their SB seasons. Had he not (which btw, he NEVER does that with games on the line) itís possible Eli gets seriously injured, OR sack fumbles the ball. When the game was on the line and it was a do or die moment, Eli, every damn time stood tall in the pocket and got crushed and delivered the ball. So excuse me, but screw you if you think he is cowardly.
RE: RE: RE: Iíll have to concur with Shurmur who recently spoke about  
bw in dc : 12/4/2018 11:06 pm : link
In comment 14206045 BBelle21 said:
Quote:


Basically, I can conclude it because I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I not only wrote it with a straight face, I pumped my fist after I wrote it. Lol. Ok? Mental toughness is also a major part of toughness and something you completely overlooked. Eli has it in spades over sensitive Rodgers.

I have no doubt that Eli ďdropping into the fetal positionĒ on certain plays contributed to their SB seasons. Had he not (which btw, he NEVER does that with games on the line) itís possible Eli gets seriously injured, OR sack fumbles the ball. When the game was on the line and it was a do or die moment, Eli, every damn time stood tall in the pocket and got crushed and delivered the ball. So excuse me, but screw you if you think he is cowardly.


I guess fair enough...

But I didnít say Eli was cowardly, I challenged you that Rodgers wasnít tough. And I at least attempted to support that reasoning.

And just for the record, Eli has 120 career fumbles. Rodgers 77. So letís steer away from any attempt to suggest Eli is some great protector of the rock. In fact, that may be his biggest weakness.

If you donít think it takes mental toughness to hang in the pocket like Rodgers does, and then extend the play with his mobility (putting himself even more a risk), then Iím even more dubious of your understanding of the game.


Comparing QB's or rosters is an exercise in futility.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2018 8:45 am : link
Football is a game of moving pieces and endless variables.

Comparing the optics on both, and how both are perceived/treated is the heart of this issue.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rodgers has had a much better supporting cast over the  
Chris in Philly : 12/5/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 14205533 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14205430 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


In comment 14205005 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14204995 JCin332 said:


Quote:


course of his career than Eli...


lol that so laughably untrue
outside of Jordy Nelson, Rodgers has had a rotating cast of nobodies at WR/TE/RB, not to mention horrible defenses

that statement doesnít put Eli in a better light, it puts guys like Cruz, Burress, Beckham, Nicks, Steve Smith, and Jacobs/Bradshaw in a worse light



Davante Adams and Randall Cobb are nobodies?



Yes they are.
Put them on Tennessee and you would have no idea who they were.


I see we've entered the stage of BBI "debate" where people just say bullshit to prop up their opinions. Have fun, kids...
And really....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2018 9:56 am : link
I highly doubt anybody would ever argue that Eli hasn't had good to great WR's in his career. That seems like a strawman argument.

O-line has always been the issue people have had where the front office failed.
I know who Tajee Sharp and Corey Davis are  
dep026 : 12/5/2018 9:57 am : link
they play for Tennessee, and they couldnt carry Adams' Jock.
Saw a stat  
dep026 : 12/5/2018 11:55 am : link
I found interesting. Dont know the validity...

Rodgers is 0-37 when trailing against teams with winning records in the 4th quarter. Don't shoot the messanger. Just passing what I heard.
Dep  
MetsAreBack : 12/5/2018 3:19 pm : link
Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??

Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.

What a stupid, mindless stat
RE: Dep  
dep026 : 12/5/2018 3:24 pm : link
In comment 14206770 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??

Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.

What a stupid, mindless stat


Yeah donít shoot the messenger.... it didnít make sense then and it doesnít even make sense now.
RE: Dep  
dep026 : 12/5/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 14206770 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??

Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.

What a stupid, mindless stat


What makes it worse is they donít count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.

Very stupid stat. I shouldnít have posted it.
RE: RE: Dep  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/5/2018 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14206776 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14206770 MetsAreBack said:


Quote:


Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??

Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.

What a stupid, mindless stat



What makes it worse is they donít count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.

Very stupid stat. I shouldnít have posted it.


That stat was ferociously repeated on twitter, but it's one of those "stats" that are a really bad lie. USA today had a field day ripping it to shreds.

Of course, if you feel like Rodgers gets too much praise, it's easy to spin it as truth.
RE: RE: Dep  
MetsAreBack : 12/6/2018 12:07 am : link
In comment 14206776 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14206770 MetsAreBack said:


Quote:


Didn't they come back from 21-3 down in 4q just this year against the bears??

Oh yeah right ... they were 0-0 back then so it doesn't count.

What a stupid, mindless stat



What makes it worse is they donít count if Rodgers takes the lead in the 4th and the defense gives it back.

Very stupid stat. I shouldnít have posted it.


Doesn't count playoffs in the stat either. It's mindless spin.
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